Remove limit on vertical rotation / mouse look for Lerks

.trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members
edited May 2017 in NS2 General Discussion
During my latest sleep-deprived state, I've been wondering if there would be any benefit of allowing lerks to "overturn" more than 180 degrees on the vertical axis (infinite rotation, just like the horizontal axis).

I'd only allow it in mid-flight, not while being on the ground/stuck to walls. In my mind, it would allow for more intense maneuvers.

I'm sure there are some technical considerations too (for eg. animations, gimbal lock).

Has such a thing been tried at some point?
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Comments

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    You'd probably have to completely rewrite the code about how mouse input and camera work together.

    For example, what happens with the camera if you overturn? Does it stay that way? Does it rotate back to the horizon? Could be potentially very disorienting.

    On first glance it seems more trouble than it would be worth.
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  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    What if we got some Star Fox moves added instead? "Do a barrel roll!"

    Lol, imagine lerks looping and spinning. Might help the less skilled lerks, while it would make the good lerks more predictable so they wouldn't use it....
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  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    Why only for lerks? I want to do backflips as a fade!
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  • pSyk0mAnpSyk0mAn Nerdish by Nature Germany Join Date: 2003-08-07 Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Why only for lerks? I want to do backflips as a fade!

    Exactly!
    And don't forget the gorg-o-gadgetto backflips:
    TDtVqZu.jpg
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  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I'd only allow it in mid-flight, not while being on the ground/stuck to walls.

    Okay, so what happens if they're looking over-the-top-behind themselves, and they fall and land on a surface? Do we... snap their view to within the limits? Do we... roll their view 180 degrees to make it look the same?

    And yes, this would require quite a lot of work to get working correctly, not to mention the animations would need to be updated.
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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2017
    I am not sure what the technical term is, but with a normal marine, if you were to look up vertically, your model would spin out. You can't in-game due to restrictions stopping you look entirely vertical.

    I am not sure if it would be an issue with lerks, because they are not constrained in 2 dimensions, so like a plane or ship, they should be able to rotate over etc, but as mentioned, what do you do about a lerk landing on it's back?
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    .trixX. wrote: »
    I'd only allow it in mid-flight, not while being on the ground/stuck to walls.

    Okay, so what happens if they're looking over-the-top-behind themselves, and they fall and land on a surface?

    I get your point but am confused by what you are saying. You aren't looking behind you, they are talking about rotating over 180 while flying, so you are basically now flying back the way you came, but upside down.
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  • moultanomoultano Creator of ns_shiva. Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2017
    Quaternions! :dizzy::wink::smiley:
    I believe the canonical way to do this would be to specify all of your view rotations in quaternion space, then add a constant angular acceleration that rolls the view back to vertical
    This would be a pretty big departure from the current control scheme however.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion

    The gist of quaternions: Euler angles (normal rotation vectors) are subject to Gimbal lock when two of the axes get aligned. Quaternions avoid this by specifying the rotation 4 dimensionally. The extra degree of freedom ensures that your rotation can never get stuck.
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  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2017
    Stick controls man, that's where its at so we can do bombing- and strafing-runs with Lerk bilebomb and spikes :D

    -->
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Stick controls man, that's where its at so we can do bombing- and strafing-runs with Lerk bilebomb and spikes :D

    -->

    Flightsticks are for noobs. Real pros play with a buzzer.

    Just a buzzer.
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  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Why is this even being argued? Technical limitations aside, it would feel very awkward.
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  • HobbesonHobbeson New York Join Date: 2015-12-04 Member: 209723Members
    Lerks can already do some pretty crazy maneuvers...it's just that most people don't know how to do them.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Hobbeson wrote: »
    Lerks can already do some pretty crazy maneuvers...it's just that most people don't know how to do them.

    teach us
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  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    edited May 2017
    moultano wrote: »
    Quaternions! :dizzy::wink::smiley:
    I believe the canonical way to do this would be to specify all of your view rotations in quaternion space, then add a constant angular acceleration that rolls the view back to vertical
    This would be a pretty big departure from the current control scheme however.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion

    The gist of quaternions: Euler angles (normal rotation vectors) are subject to Gimbal lock when two of the axes get aligned. Quaternions avoid this by specifying the rotation 4 dimensionally. The extra degree of freedom ensures that your rotation can never get stuck.

    Oh I am well-aware of the miracle of quaternions. The real trick is getting the animation system to cooperate with that, and figuring out how to deal with the net-code side of that.

    Anyone played "Depth?" When you aim down the sights, you can spin 360 degrees, unrestricted... though they didn't do anything like re-set the roll, so it got pretty nauseating.

    That's a really interesting idea for lerks, and maybe even skulks. Would take quite a bit of tweaking, I imagine, to make it "feel" right, and would definitely need to be a non-default option. ;)
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  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    you can flick 180 on the horizontal axis so why do you need to flick 180 on the vertical axis? They get you to the same place... If it's to "conserve" velocity you would need to loop or something which with our current map height doesn't make sense.

    I'm pretty sure if F16s could spin in place and immediately fly in any direction they wouldn't bother looping...
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  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Depth has spherical aiming (which is basically what you're proposing) and it sucks
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  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2017
    Shattered Horizon is fully 3D including strafing (really the first game to do it was probably descent, but that one you never attached to a surface so no realigning camera ever. It did have a "right your view" button though, which rotated the camera perpendicular to the closest to you surface iirc), and it was pretty kickass. I am sad it died quickly, but in a way I think it was "before its time." Or maybe because it had client-side hit detection, or at least it felt like it. It also felt kind of dry and punishing... you know, like asteroid combat full of people who want to knife you in the back silently from weird angles.

    The way the camera was handled is when you attached to a surface (there was an "attach" button), it slowly "force-rotated" you to the correct orientation perpendicular from that surface. It was written pretty well, and felt "sticky" but "smooth."

    I'm not sure if lerks need to go full flight sim at this point in NS2 though, rudder pedals, throttle and all. It works "fine" for the game, even though it does feel gamey with all the "jesus lerk" crap flying slowly pointed straight up.... but whatever.
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  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I remember shattered horizon. Brilliant game
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  • ZdrytchXZdrytchX Australia Join Date: 2016-02-06 Member: 212662Members
    edited June 2017
    maD_maX_ wrote: »
    What if we got some Star Fox moves added instead? "Do a barrel roll!".

    Tihs is what a barrel roll is, star fox screwed up pilot education a lot to the point that even aerobatic instructors occasionally don't know.


    That's only the aerobatic display style.

    Gnerally they are more like this or this
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