Really, between buoys and a compass, that's all you need. I don't even bother putting a map in my screenshots directory anymore, and it's certainly not because I have the world memorized; it just takes me more time to go into the photo file and read the map than it does for me to take a bearing off a couple buoys with my compass. Add in the scanner room and that's plenty of nav information. The 3D scanner on the seaglide is...neat...but in the end it's just eye candy.
I'm not saying the pro-map camp is wrong. Some players really want or need to have a map, and that's fine. However, with the abundance of navigational aids in the game right now, I don't think it needs to be a high priority for the developers; there are far more important fish for them to fry.
I agree that the devs have much more important things to work on before 1.0 (game balance...).
However, I'm less satisfied with the current navigation aids. Technically the game is completely playable with what we have already, but they're very expensive for what they do (especially since a proper map is a given in nearly every other game). Hopefully once the game gets is full balance pass they won't be so much of a headache to deal with. Still doesn't really solve the discoverability problem for finding the scanner room and beacon fragments (and the resources to craft them) in the first place though.
Do Beacons still require Silver in the latest Stable? In experimental, beacons cost only one copper and one titanium. Compared to the Silver recipe or the old Copper Wire + Titanium recipe, beacons are ridiculously cheap now. Again, if you are talking stable, they may still have the recipe set to use Silver.
Given that copper is the gating resource for much of the game, even one copper is still fairly expensive in the early and mid game for something that you'll likely need a lot of. It's not exorbitantly expensive, but given that maps in games are generally free, having to spend an important resource just to put markers around the world gets annoying pretty quickly.
Really, between buoys and a compass, that's all you need. I don't even bother putting a map in my screenshots directory anymore, and it's certainly not because I have the world memorized; it just takes me more time to go into the photo file and read the map than it does for me to take a bearing off a couple buoys with my compass. Add in the scanner room and that's plenty of nav information. The 3D scanner on the seaglide is...neat...but in the end it's just eye candy.
I'm not saying the pro-map camp is wrong. Some players really want or need to have a map, and that's fine. However, with the abundance of navigational aids in the game right now, I don't think it needs to be a high priority for the developers; there are far more important fish for them to fry.
I agree that the devs have much more important things to work on before 1.0 (game balance...).
However, I'm less satisfied with the current navigation aids. Technically the game is completely playable with what we have already, but they're very expensive for what they do (especially since a proper map is a given in nearly every other game). Hopefully once the game gets is full balance pass they won't be so much of a headache to deal with. Still doesn't really solve the discoverability problem for finding the scanner room and beacon fragments (and the resources to craft them) in the first place though.
Do Beacons still require Silver in the latest Stable? In experimental, beacons cost only one copper and one titanium. Compared to the Silver recipe or the old Copper Wire + Titanium recipe, beacons are ridiculously cheap now. Again, if you are talking stable, they may still have the recipe set to use Silver.
Given that copper is the gating resource for much of the game, even one copper is still fairly expensive in the early and mid game for something that you'll likely need a lot of.
Early game, yes. You'll have a few important things to use copper on. However, since limestone now only contains titanium and copper (lead has been moved to sandstone) and there's a lot of limestone around, I'm fairly certain that you'll have tons of extra. Even with the need for copper wire for your computer chips (and computer chips needed for a lot of things) you should have enough copper spare for a couple of early game beacons. As well as enough spare for a few signs in your ship if you want.
With lead moved to sandstone, I don't lack for copper these days, so that's good.
In regards to finding wrecks, I agree that it's going to be tough for new players. I've played the game through several times and spent a lot more time just exploring, and there is still one wreck in the kelp I consistently cannot find. That and the southern-most wreck in the Grand Reef always give me trouble.
With lead moved to sandstone, I don't lack for copper these days, so that's good.
In regards to finding wrecks, I agree that it's going to be tough for new players. I've played the game through several times and spent a lot more time just exploring, and there is still one wreck in the kelp I consistently cannot find. That and the southern-most wreck in the Grand Reef always give me trouble.
This is one of those times it's good to have a beacon or two around. That way you can drop it and label it as the wreck, and when you've completely searched the wreck you can either pick it up, or you can leave it there and just change the 'ping' color in order to differentiate it from one you haven't searched completely yet.
The lack of a map has forced me in an interesting direction in order to get around: Navigating by compass and landmark only.
I make notes, mostly in my head, of how to find places by landmark.
"North of Lifepod 2, on the ridge, is the first alien pylon leading the way to Alien Cache Beta."
"The northwestern edge of the eastern mushroom forest runs up against the eastern slopes of Gun Island. There's a Reaper there."
Stuff like that. It's been... interesting.
What you've created is a rutter (2nd definition), "A set of instructions for finding a course at sea or, rarely, on land; a marine guide to routes, tides, etc.", for 4546B.
This is one of those times it's good to have a beacon or two around. That way you can drop it and label it as the wreck, and when you've completely searched the wreck you can either pick it up, or you can leave it there and just change the 'ping' color in order to differentiate it from one you haven't searched completely yet.
Beacons are very useful for that, yeah, but you have to find the wreck in the first place. That's what I'm saying could be a problem for new players.
What you've created is a rutter (2nd definition), "A set of instructions for finding a course at sea or, rarely, on land; a marine guide to routes, tides, etc.", for 4546B.
This is one of those times it's good to have a beacon or two around. That way you can drop it and label it as the wreck, and when you've completely searched the wreck you can either pick it up, or you can leave it there and just change the 'ping' color in order to differentiate it from one you haven't searched completely yet.
Beacons are very useful for that, yeah, but you have to find the wreck in the first place. That's what I'm saying could be a problem for new players.
It's not easy for *old* players, either. I keep not being able to find a wreck, or accidentally passing one while doing something else, cursing myself for not having a beacon but not having the water/food/space/time for a search right then, and then not being able to find it again.
Except that your drawing is a 2d representation of the surface. Not a map of the world.
Which is the biggest problem for finding things: the world is 3D. Drawing a map is hard because of the layers, and the fact you have to map in three dimensions due to the fact we're in water.
For instance, I don't see the Jellyshroom caves or Lost River.
Except that your drawing is a 2d representation of the surface. Not a map of the world.
Which is the biggest problem for finding things: the world is 3D. Drawing a map is hard because of the layers, and the fact you have to map in three dimensions due to the fact we're in water.
For instance, I don't see the Jellyshroom caves or Lost River.
There are very few elements in finding a given item that is dependent on the z axis though as long as you're within a 100m or so. There really isn't anything in the water column to search for, certainly nothing that is difficult to find quickly once you have the x and y. Sure, there are cave systems, but those systems can be found with an x and y coordinate. Absolute precision is unnecessary and adds complexity to a map that makes it difficult to read for some players.
Except that your drawing is a 2d representation of the surface. Not a map of the world.
Which is the biggest problem for finding things: the world is 3D. Drawing a map is hard because of the layers, and the fact you have to map in three dimensions due to the fact we're in water.
For instance, I don't see the Jellyshroom caves or Lost River.
No need to put either of those on any map. I may not remember the location of all the wrecks. But I've definitely memorized both those locations.
This is one of those times it's good to have a beacon or two around. That way you can drop it and label it as the wreck, and when you've completely searched the wreck you can either pick it up, or you can leave it there and just change the 'ping' color in order to differentiate it from one you haven't searched completely yet.
Beacons are very useful for that, yeah, but you have to find the wreck in the first place. That's what I'm saying could be a problem for new players.
Ummm...
Isn't that the whole idea behind the game?
Finding Stuff on one's own...
You know ...
EXPLORING
Seems kinda-sorta counterintuitive to create things right-off-the-bat, that defeat the actual premise of the game.
Ummm...
Isn't that the whole idea behind the game?
Finding Stuff on one's own...
You know ...
EXPLORING
@DaveyNY I think it's because a lot of us have run through at least the earlier parts of Subnautica so many times. We've explored, and explored, and explored. We're not so fresh about it. I still find those first swim-outs exhilarating. But eventually it comes down to knowing what we need, the rarer mats and frags, and we can't find them. Bugs like losing frag progress on reload of the savegame just makes that feel harsher.
It's apparent, despite the many changes to the game, that exploring is tough and we'd like some in-game assistance, like even the roughest of maps. If it comes down to having to keep external notes (which I do) and a map, that's a friction to a player playing the game. And if we need an external map, it's tempting just use one with info on it. Because we're a bit tired and just want to get on with things.
I'd really like to know is how new players react to SN nowadays.
I remember when I first played it that I was constantly lost. I actually avoided exploring because I tended to get lost. Even once I'd found a compass it was still a problem. I couldn't remember where I'd been, Some biomes exist in multiple locations or in odd shapes, so I was never really sure if I'd been to that biome before. If I found something but didn't have a beacon handy I'd never find it again; even noting down range and heading of the lifepod was hit and miss, mostly miss.
The addition of new messages with automatic beacons, the "ping" menu etc have improved things a lot, I found; but I'm still using the offline maps (and debug coords) quite a bit, simply because navigating is a pure nightmare for me. Given this thread, and the recurring nature of this topic I suspect I'm not alone.
What I'd really like is a PDA version of the scanner room map. One that I can rotate, zoom, pan etc. It should only show those areas I'd scanned with the terrain mapping (seamoth/seaglide) or with an actual scanner room. The active scanning for stuff should still require an actual scanner room (the list needs to scrollable!) and the HUD chip. Maybe it could even be a chip that's added to the PDA.
If that's too much work for the release, then what I'd really like in v1.0 is the "Compass" to be upgraded to an "inertial navigation system" that displays your current position in the world (i.e. what's already available in the debug menu). Then even as a brand new player I'd have the option of creating my own offline map. It might make beacons less critical, but in truth, navigating via beacon would still be a lot easier than calculating coordinates.
The Beacons in the game should still be apart of the map system. While we can have them disabled in the world. They still show up as yellow dots on the map, when we highlight over them. Their names appear. Along with other info: Biome, depth etc. The map should also allow us to remotely rename them. Basically the Ping tab would be upgraded to the Scanner Detail Map interface. It functions basically like a map from Metroid.
I'd really like to know is how new players react to SN nowadays.
If that's too much work for the release, then what I'd really like in v1.0 is the "Compass" to be upgraded to an "inertial navigation system" that displays your current position in the world (i.e. what's already available in the debug menu). Then even as a brand new player I'd have the option of creating my own offline map. It might make beacons less critical, but in truth, navigating via beacon would still be a lot easier than calculating coordinates.
When I started playing Subnautica, I solved the problem by printing an empty map (with just the borders) on a paper and I marked interesting locations there. Now, that we have distances available to every story and user markers, it's pretty easy to do the mapping. Distance and heading is sufficient for most things. And if you need something precise then use two distance. Having the XYZ-coords doesn't really help or improve anything.
Getting lost is impossible because I can always check the direction and distance to the lifepod.
At the moment I'm running under the assumption that once 1.0 launches, the game will be in a "final" state; and as such the F1/F3/F8 window functions will either be disabled or removed by then. Maybe they won't be gone, but really... once the game officially launches, there's no more reason to debug or test the game, so they won't have a reason to exist anymore.
But as the F1 window shows, the game knows where you are based on the World Camera Position entry. I would love to see that moved from the F1 screen into a PDA map/location tool to give everyone access. I mean, if that data is already there in the game, why not make it more accessible?
You ever try finding the DGR Degassi base without a signal?
I actually stumbled across a cheap way to find the Degasi base in the DGR. Since I tend to build my "final" base in the GR I set up a Scanner Room to tool around with, and set the scanner to look for Data Boxes (since it picked them up from the nearby Large Wreck across from the Thermal Spouts). As I was patrolling a camera through the DGR, I suddenly got a blip deeper into the area... and I was delighted that it picked up the Data Box (Swim Charge Fins) from inside the base! This made finding the base later with the Exosuit far much easier, since I could just idle the camera at the base and use its ping to zip up to the base with ease.
At the moment I'm running under the assumption that once 1.0 launches, the game will be in a "final" state; and as such the F1/F3/F8 window functions will either be disabled or removed by then. Maybe they won't be gone, but really... once the game officially launches, there's no more reason to debug or test the game, so they won't have a reason to exist anymore.
But as the F1 window shows, the game knows where you are based on the World Camera Position entry. I would love to see that moved from the F1 screen into a PDA map/location tool to give everyone access. I mean, if that data is already there in the game, why not make it more accessible?
Honestly, if F1 functionality were reduced to showing your XYZ position and nothing else, I would be 100% fine with that.
At the moment I'm running under the assumption that once 1.0 launches, the game will be in a "final" state; and as such the F1/F3/F8 window functions will either be disabled or removed by then. Maybe they won't be gone, but really... once the game officially launches, there's no more reason to debug or test the game, so they won't have a reason to exist anymore.
Man, I hope not.
But don't forget: vestigial software components frequently remain. There's no need for a command line console in a finished game, either, but many games leave it active for player appeasement. Since disabling the console would only take a minute (which I mean literally), leaving it active is a conscious choice. Hopefully, UWE will come to the same conclusion and leave our debug panels accessible...although maybe slightly better hidden.
I'm hoping they leave the console and all debug windows available, but locked under a code or setting somewhere. It's even be cool to have them remain on xbox under a gamepad sequence you could enter to enable them.
Comments
Given that copper is the gating resource for much of the game, even one copper is still fairly expensive in the early and mid game for something that you'll likely need a lot of. It's not exorbitantly expensive, but given that maps in games are generally free, having to spend an important resource just to put markers around the world gets annoying pretty quickly.
Early game, yes. You'll have a few important things to use copper on. However, since limestone now only contains titanium and copper (lead has been moved to sandstone) and there's a lot of limestone around, I'm fairly certain that you'll have tons of extra. Even with the need for copper wire for your computer chips (and computer chips needed for a lot of things) you should have enough copper spare for a couple of early game beacons. As well as enough spare for a few signs in your ship if you want.
In regards to finding wrecks, I agree that it's going to be tough for new players. I've played the game through several times and spent a lot more time just exploring, and there is still one wreck in the kelp I consistently cannot find. That and the southern-most wreck in the Grand Reef always give me trouble.
This is one of those times it's good to have a beacon or two around. That way you can drop it and label it as the wreck, and when you've completely searched the wreck you can either pick it up, or you can leave it there and just change the 'ping' color in order to differentiate it from one you haven't searched completely yet.
Beacons are very useful for that, yeah, but you have to find the wreck in the first place. That's what I'm saying could be a problem for new players.
Cool, thanks! That's really interesting.
Memorized drawing:
Real map
Overlay:
It's not easy for *old* players, either.
Except that your drawing is a 2d representation of the surface. Not a map of the world.
Which is the biggest problem for finding things: the world is 3D. Drawing a map is hard because of the layers, and the fact you have to map in three dimensions due to the fact we're in water.
For instance, I don't see the Jellyshroom caves or Lost River.
There are very few elements in finding a given item that is dependent on the z axis though as long as you're within a 100m or so. There really isn't anything in the water column to search for, certainly nothing that is difficult to find quickly once you have the x and y. Sure, there are cave systems, but those systems can be found with an x and y coordinate. Absolute precision is unnecessary and adds complexity to a map that makes it difficult to read for some players.
No need to put either of those on any map. I may not remember the location of all the wrecks. But I've definitely memorized both those locations.
(Just the entrances I guess, though)
Ummm...
Isn't that the whole idea behind the game?
Finding Stuff on one's own...
You know ...
EXPLORING
Seems kinda-sorta counterintuitive to create things right-off-the-bat, that defeat the actual premise of the game.
< shrug >
It's apparent, despite the many changes to the game, that exploring is tough and we'd like some in-game assistance, like even the roughest of maps. If it comes down to having to keep external notes (which I do) and a map, that's a friction to a player playing the game. And if we need an external map, it's tempting just use one with info on it. Because we're a bit tired and just want to get on with things.
I remember when I first played it that I was constantly lost. I actually avoided exploring because I tended to get lost. Even once I'd found a compass it was still a problem. I couldn't remember where I'd been, Some biomes exist in multiple locations or in odd shapes, so I was never really sure if I'd been to that biome before. If I found something but didn't have a beacon handy I'd never find it again; even noting down range and heading of the lifepod was hit and miss, mostly miss.
The addition of new messages with automatic beacons, the "ping" menu etc have improved things a lot, I found; but I'm still using the offline maps (and debug coords) quite a bit, simply because navigating is a pure nightmare for me. Given this thread, and the recurring nature of this topic I suspect I'm not alone.
What I'd really like is a PDA version of the scanner room map. One that I can rotate, zoom, pan etc. It should only show those areas I'd scanned with the terrain mapping (seamoth/seaglide) or with an actual scanner room. The active scanning for stuff should still require an actual scanner room (the list needs to scrollable!) and the HUD chip. Maybe it could even be a chip that's added to the PDA.
If that's too much work for the release, then what I'd really like in v1.0 is the "Compass" to be upgraded to an "inertial navigation system" that displays your current position in the world (i.e. what's already available in the debug menu). Then even as a brand new player I'd have the option of creating my own offline map. It might make beacons less critical, but in truth, navigating via beacon would still be a lot easier than calculating coordinates.
When I started playing Subnautica, I solved the problem by printing an empty map (with just the borders) on a paper and I marked interesting locations there. Now, that we have distances available to every story and user markers, it's pretty easy to do the mapping. Distance and heading is sufficient for most things. And if you need something precise then use two distance. Having the XYZ-coords doesn't really help or improve anything.
Getting lost is impossible because I can always check the direction and distance to the lifepod.
...you ever press that F1 key?
You ever try finding the DGR Degassi base without a signal?
But as the F1 window shows, the game knows where you are based on the World Camera Position entry. I would love to see that moved from the F1 screen into a PDA map/location tool to give everyone access. I mean, if that data is already there in the game, why not make it more accessible?
I actually stumbled across a cheap way to find the Degasi base in the DGR. Since I tend to build my "final" base in the GR I set up a Scanner Room to tool around with, and set the scanner to look for Data Boxes (since it picked them up from the nearby Large Wreck across from the Thermal Spouts). As I was patrolling a camera through the DGR, I suddenly got a blip deeper into the area... and I was delighted that it picked up the Data Box (Swim Charge Fins) from inside the base!
Honestly, if F1 functionality were reduced to showing your XYZ position and nothing else, I would be 100% fine with that.
Man, I hope not.
But don't forget: vestigial software components frequently remain. There's no need for a command line console in a finished game, either, but many games leave it active for player appeasement. Since disabling the console would only take a minute (which I mean literally), leaving it active is a conscious choice. Hopefully, UWE will come to the same conclusion and leave our debug panels accessible...although maybe slightly better hidden.