Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2018
True, although I'm not really boiling it down to these so called "SJW's" though. Although I can see why you'd think that. Basically UWE is a tiny company and essentially on the same level or maybe a tiny bit above "employees". So even if they are technically job providers, they can face bigger issues than the big fish in the pond.
I should've phrased it as the socially independent people/companies, you know. The job providers who are not subject to the whims of which way the social wind of drama blows, so to speak But this doesn't excuse them from their own distorted views on how diversity is inherently a good thing by default. Which was kinda what I wanted to highlight, but I went on a tangent into a different direction to some extent
This is multiple kinds of dumb from multiple directions. I mean, taking reddit seriously? The same site that competes with 4chan for the title of 'gutter of the internet'? Also, posting anything even mildly controversial on an account linked to your work is dumb. Were there related issues in the workplace (and how does that work if everyone is remote anyway?) Were there frequent debates?
It looks the dev's knee-jerk reaction has backfired:
Bad reviews started flooding Steam in protest against firing Chylinski... and it's such a shame, Subnautica had amazing review stats so far.
Also, someone should tell Mr Cleveland to not overdo on his newly found political correctness now. His recent tweets are... funny, to put it very mildly.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Ugh, yeah which is kinda the other side of the coin. Judging a game not for the game, but for unrelated things. Kinda a sad display on both sides now, but I kinda hinted at this as being an expected result
Not because you like or dislike some particular candidate*, but because things like Freedom of Speech, Equality of Opportunity and Rule of Law means something to you.
Shutting someone up by threats and or violence is something alarming to say the least. Affirmative Action is institutionalized racism, period.
*we know who I'm talking about and he is PoS man if you ask my personal opinion, but I'd die for Values I've listed above
PS. It's kinda hillarios that I've written all I've written above while having Team Fortress 2 Soldier on my avatar. Sapienti sat
Also, someone should tell Mr Cleveland to not overdo on his newly found political correctness now. His recent tweets are... funny, to put it very mildly.
Then I apologize for my misunderstanding. I agree that there are some SJWs that take it too far, however, the individual who was fired had a history of hateful, public posts. Im not surprised he was let go for his lack of commonsense.
As far as future DLCs, Im not too worried. The game is a success and Im sure they'll attract someone as, if not moreso, talented.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2018
The annoying thing about all of this is that we as outsiders only have the third-party sensationalist perspective, yet most of the shit posters on Steam with their irrelevant reviews are posting as if they have the inside scoop and jumping on the bandwagon.
They are now stooping to the same level as the other side, using the same bat shit crazy tactics...
The thing is, this should've been handled internally, but hey we live in a "look at me" kind of society, so this was already off the table
I mean, this is a quote from the Steam review page:
<h1>Write your own reviews</h1>
Let the community know how you feel about the games you play and the software you use.
To get started, just visit the Steam store page for any game you've played or software you've used on Steam.
I had Subnautica on my Steam Wishlist until this story broke. I'd rather support a dev company that isn't part of the problem that plagues the games industry.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited February 2018
@notbuyingfromSJWs well it really is your loss, it is a great game. Let me ask you a question, do you always look into a company's political or social views before buying a game though? Hmm, just coming on here, creating an account with that nickname might indicate I'm kinda wasting my time here, prove me wrong!
I think we should close this before it goes to S***. @Foxy
They have this policy of supporting discussions on their forums. And so far there isn't anything in here that warrants a lock, right? Even if it is a touchy and potential volatile subject, I'm quite surprised!
Yeah, its a shame. And now this has grown into the female player model debacle. Charlie should take a hint from other companies and just duck and cover, wait for this to blow over before announcing measures to placate the whiny few.
@notbuyingfromSJWs well it really is your loss, it is a great game. Let me ask you a question, do you always look into a company's political or social views before buying a game though? Hmm, just coming on here, creating an account with that nickname might indicate I'm kinda wasting my time here, prove me wrong!
I think we should close this before it goes to S***. @Foxy
They have this policy of supporting discussions on their forums. And so far there isn't anything in here that warrants a lock, right? Even if it is a touchy and potential volatile subject, I'm quite surprised!
I'm sure it is a great game. I did originally add it to my Steam Wishlist for a reason. It looked and sounded fantastic from every video I've looked into. A big part of that is likely because of this guy's involvement with the development.
I don't always look into the leanings of upper-ups of a company before buying their product/service, but if news of it reaches me somehow, and it bothers me, I've spent my dollars elsewhere on other products/services before. It really depends on how big of a stink the public raises, whether or not that information reaches me.
Yes, creating this account and making my comment has the sole purpose of letting it be known, one voice at a time, that if a corporation wants to get political and alienate potential customers, I exist, and I will choose not to reward that. I have as much of a right to make that decision as they have a right to fire the guy for disagreeing with what they likely consider the right way to think. I'm willing to wager that a good majority of the lynch mob against the guy were not even realistically part of the consumer base. But I was, potentially, and now I'm not.
kingkumacancels Work: distracted by Dwarf FortressJoin Date: 2015-09-25Member: 208137Members
edited February 2018
Personally, this thread makes me sad. It's a great game, and this whole thing has gotten out of hand. I wish people on both sides could be more tolerant, it would mean a lot to me if everyone just accepted that everyone on the world doesn't have the same beliefs as them.
"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, act II, scene I
This thread's absurd - anyone thinking they've got sufficient facts upon which to form a balanced view based on what's come out in a couple of press items is showing astonishing naivety.
Personally, this thread makes me sad. It's a great game, and this whole thing has gotten out of hand. I wish people on both sides could be more tolerant, it would mean a lot to me if everyone just accepted that everyone on the world doesn't have the same beliefs as them.
"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, act II, scene I
This is how I feel. From my perspective, unfortunately, a certain demographic of perpetually offended people will try to insert themselves into spaces they never were interested in in the first place, because that is their crusade. My hobbies have been affected by people who weren't even invested in them. Comics caved in and lost readers because of it. Magic: the Gathering did the same, and now there is a downward trend in new players' adoption of their game. The gaming industry has its share of people trying to alter what is acceptable and not in the very art that is being created. I mean, look at what Resetera/NeoGAF has to say about the developer creating The Last Night, or Markus Persson (Notch, creator of Minecraft). If the regressive left had their way, people like these two would never create again.
I'm not saying that a space for games that a SJW audience would like doesn't exist. I want them to have a gaming experience that gets them immersed into the hobby, because I love this hobby. I want them to enjoy it with me. But because of the nature of their dogma, they want the ecosystem of games development to become something that will create less art that *I* would enjoy. I feel they ruin everything they touch. What I believe in is a more libertine landscape of games development, where if you want to create a piece of art with whatever message you believe in, you don't have to fear somebody digging through your Twitter and raising enough of a stink about it to get you fired for being somewhere different than your boss on the political spectrum.
But here we are.
I believe the only way to deter a boss like that from firing somebody like they did is to be selective in this way about who gets my money and who doesn't, and to voice why I'm making that decision where that person can hear it.
UWE has my support for this move. As much as I love the music in the game and do acknowledge Si's amazing contribution, those comments are disgusting and having had the displeasure of working with someone only a fifth as bad and holding my breath for the next horrible they were going to say (because people like these don't keep to social media, though they might be more subtle in person), I am glad to see action taken in favor of a more welcoming work space.
Mind, I'm also not someone who believes in single chances; as per the reports, UWE talked with them about the tweets and they chose to stand by them. They made it clear they would be damaging to potential future colleagues and therefore had to go. Simple as that.
The idea that UWE did this for publicity or out of fear for mobs is, btw, preposterous. I mean, look at most of you being a mob just as much. A decision either way would've brought trouble for UWE; might as well stick to what they committed too.
We live in a connected world. Right or wrong, UWE could not have pleased everyone regardless their decision. UWE has a right to fire anyone they want (mostly), and customers have a right to respond according to their conscience, based on what they know (even if it is limited).
This is a sad state of affairs indeed. I've always been more than a little put-off by all the noise the devs have made about their decision to not include guns in the game to make a statement about gun violence (yet we have the stasis rifle, the propulsion/repulsion cannon, and vortex/gas torpoedos, plus a lack of effective nonviolent methods to handle predators so violence is still encouraged, albeit now it's with knives and blunt force weapons) and the way this situation was handled hasn't done anything to improve my perception of the devs.
Yeah, what Simon did was probably stupid and shortsighted. However, it wasn't at all illegal and what he said didn't strike me as hateful (blunt and poorly worded maybe) and it seems like firing was an extreme kneejerk reaction to an online lynch mob. Like he said, he expected a public distancing of the company from his opinions and a private reprimand (which seems like it would have been appropriate), but making a public spectacle of his firing sends unpleasant messages to me about who the devs are, even if it's just incompetence with handling these kinds of messy PR situations. If he really did need to go, do it quietly and don't make a spectacle out of it to appease the unappeasable, that will just embolden them to make bigger and bigger stinks/tantrums/whatever to get what they want.
And thanks to everyone for voicing their opinions - at least here on the forum we can speak freely and disagree with one another without risk of being fired banned. I'm being sarcastic, but this quote just did it for me:
“They began asking me how I would react if they hired a Muslim or trans person. I said I’d debate them like anyone else on the team if I disagreed with them,” said Chylinski. “They said that this would create an unwelcoming working environment and that they see it as a problem that almost only white men are working there, and they need more diversity and that what I said would make that difficult to achieve.”
So if a Muslim person tells you that the sun is pink with green polka dot pattern, you are expected to agree with them because they are Muslim. Congrats, UWE, on PR move of the year.
I don't think it requires any more commentary.
It really depends if the conversation (debate) was mutual and respectful. I wasn't clear on that. You can't fault the guy for having differing opinions if he's respectful about expressing them.
His meme post I didn't find particularly offensive (but I'm not into such things and I took it as a disagreeing eyeroll, it may have more meaning than that, I'm not sure).
The comments about IQ and such, while possibly factually accurate, aren't clear enough to be sure they are talking negatively about the people themselves, as if that's part of who they are, or merely stating facts (I mean, If you grew up in a crazy area where there's gangs, drugs, abuse, thugs abducted your mom when you were 8 and your Dad died trying to prevent it, and you've been taking care of your little brother ever since, you wouldn't really have time to nourish that high IQ, and you might even steal things!).
Apparently some ppl in this thread, including OP, aren't adjusting to the "new normal". Social media is being more and more scrutinized by companies and how their employees use it. Most companies now have social media policies written into their employee handbooks. Mine does. So here's the jist, if you're an asshole on the internet in a public space with your public account, with your company's name attached to the account, expect backlash. If you think you can just say whatever opinionated thing you want, and then post about the work you're doing for company XYZ, think again. This is the "New Normal". Adjust and adapt, or be fired.
I would however love to see how that is handled when that shoe is on another foot, however. Say, right-wing owned coffee shop fires employee for posting that "conservative tools are destroying our planet" or "conservatives are responsible for the death of thousands of children due to school shootings".
Is it in the right-wing coffee shop's rights to do so? Sure. But imagine the backlash. A lot of people are probably angry just thinking about it right now after reading this.
But at the same time, if the employee is always posting about stuff from work and how he loves working there... I can see how they have an image to uphold (what they stand for).
Ugh, yeah which is kinda the other side of the coin. Judging a game not for the game, but for unrelated things. Kinda a sad display on both sides now, but I kinda hinted at this as being an expected result
Purchasing a product which in this case would be a game is not just a way for the consumer to gain said product but to support the makers of said product. If the makers of said product act in a way that is considered deplorable or unsavoury to the customer, why wouldn't said customer want to not support them?
I'd argue that the very basis of firing an employee based on their publicised comments is exactly to assuage the impact those comments have on customers. Except in this case, firing a worthy employee simply because a small fringe minority of people that an even smaller portion of might be potential customers launched a small smear campaign in order to attack one of Unknown World's employees for their personal comments.
If you consider Yooka Laylee, in which JonTron's contribution was completely cut from the game for arguably more apolitical comments, and the response of the customers versus the small community that reported his comments to the company behind the game- you might surmise that the whiplash for catering to political blackmail (there is little to suggest that this is not a sudden act) is far worse.
There's some discussion back and forth about this over here (/r/Games)...
Informative post, thank you for the informative links which are handy even for people have been aware of past events and have a good idea of what has transpired.
For what it's worth, I believe that though it may not be necessarily wise in today's world to publicise one's views if they are counter culture to the establishment in most if not all countries, I respect far more that an employee of a company is still a person who has a right to have divergent views, and that such views are not responsible for their talent or competence.
If we support censorship simply because of the status of employment, we are effectively consenting ourselves to such treatment in the future as well. For government jobs that almost sounds reasonable, but in the private sector?
Time has proven, at least in my eyes, repeatedly that catering to a vocal minority who are most likely not even paying customers for a larger part is a poor business choice, and failing to protect employees from attacks by such ill-intent speaks poorly of the company that behaves so.
Like others may think, I believe that if this was not a disastrous knee-jerk reaction, it is a poorly considered one- I have observed far less competent employees to be provided the chance to gracefully quit and seek new work opportunities rather than have the stigma of being fired.
I personally will not be purchasing anything from Unknown Worlds Entertainment again, as I do not support their business practices any longer.
Based on what I been reading. Simion did something on Twitter that could be offensive. People got mad. He got fired because of it. More people got mad. Imo, if it was very offensive then yes I can see why they got fired, but the people mad about him being fired are just annoying. They fired him for being rude. Meanwhile there are other companies who are actually being rude to their employees. There are cases of other companies getting in trouble for mistreating a certain group of employees. In fact, a giant disaster happened because of it. When the Triangle Shirt Sewing Building place in the U.S caught on fire. Hundreds of women inside died, because the doors were locked just so they couldn't sneak out before break time. And well, other reasons as well. This did call an outrage and improved worker safety. But here, a guy gets fired for doing something offensive and people are freaking out just like the building thing happened again. Stop calling UWE messed up for this when there are a lot more messed up cases than this.
Personally, this thread makes me sad. It's a great game, and this whole thing has gotten out of hand. I wish people on both sides could be more tolerant, it would mean a lot to me if everyone just accepted that everyone on the world doesn't have the same beliefs as them.
"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, act II, scene I
Comments
I should've phrased it as the socially independent people/companies, you know. The job providers who are not subject to the whims of which way the social wind of drama blows, so to speak
It looks the dev's knee-jerk reaction has backfired:
Bad reviews started flooding Steam in protest against firing Chylinski... and it's such a shame, Subnautica had amazing review stats so far.
Also, someone should tell Mr Cleveland to not overdo on his newly found political correctness now. His recent tweets are... funny, to put it very mildly.
Let me point you to this little humorous, yet true, gem:
Nothing of value, indeed.
Not because you like or dislike some particular candidate*, but because things like Freedom of Speech, Equality of Opportunity and Rule of Law means something to you.
Shutting someone up by threats and or violence is something alarming to say the least. Affirmative Action is institutionalized racism, period.
*we know who I'm talking about and he is PoS man if you ask my personal opinion, but I'd die for Values I've listed above
PS. It's kinda hillarios that I've written all I've written above while having Team Fortress 2 Soldier on my avatar. Sapienti sat
Careful dude, or they gonna fire you...
Ha ha, oh my gosh, yes. This SO MUCH.
Then I apologize for my misunderstanding. I agree that there are some SJWs that take it too far, however, the individual who was fired had a history of hateful, public posts. Im not surprised he was let go for his lack of commonsense.
As far as future DLCs, Im not too worried. The game is a success and Im sure they'll attract someone as, if not moreso, talented.
They are now stooping to the same level as the other side, using the same bat shit crazy tactics...
The thing is, this should've been handled internally, but hey we live in a "look at me" kind of society, so this was already off the table
I mean, this is a quote from the Steam review page:
Leave Subnautica alone
@Foxy
They have this policy of supporting discussions on their forums. And so far there isn't anything in here that warrants a lock, right? Even if it is a touchy and potential volatile subject, I'm quite surprised!
Yeah, its a shame. And now this has grown into the female player model debacle. Charlie should take a hint from other companies and just duck and cover, wait for this to blow over before announcing measures to placate the whiny few.
conclusion found: error.
I'm sure it is a great game. I did originally add it to my Steam Wishlist for a reason. It looked and sounded fantastic from every video I've looked into. A big part of that is likely because of this guy's involvement with the development.
I don't always look into the leanings of upper-ups of a company before buying their product/service, but if news of it reaches me somehow, and it bothers me, I've spent my dollars elsewhere on other products/services before. It really depends on how big of a stink the public raises, whether or not that information reaches me.
Yes, creating this account and making my comment has the sole purpose of letting it be known, one voice at a time, that if a corporation wants to get political and alienate potential customers, I exist, and I will choose not to reward that. I have as much of a right to make that decision as they have a right to fire the guy for disagreeing with what they likely consider the right way to think. I'm willing to wager that a good majority of the lynch mob against the guy were not even realistically part of the consumer base. But I was, potentially, and now I'm not.
"there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Hamlet, act II, scene I
This is how I feel. From my perspective, unfortunately, a certain demographic of perpetually offended people will try to insert themselves into spaces they never were interested in in the first place, because that is their crusade. My hobbies have been affected by people who weren't even invested in them. Comics caved in and lost readers because of it. Magic: the Gathering did the same, and now there is a downward trend in new players' adoption of their game. The gaming industry has its share of people trying to alter what is acceptable and not in the very art that is being created. I mean, look at what Resetera/NeoGAF has to say about the developer creating The Last Night, or Markus Persson (Notch, creator of Minecraft). If the regressive left had their way, people like these two would never create again.
I'm not saying that a space for games that a SJW audience would like doesn't exist. I want them to have a gaming experience that gets them immersed into the hobby, because I love this hobby. I want them to enjoy it with me. But because of the nature of their dogma, they want the ecosystem of games development to become something that will create less art that *I* would enjoy. I feel they ruin everything they touch. What I believe in is a more libertine landscape of games development, where if you want to create a piece of art with whatever message you believe in, you don't have to fear somebody digging through your Twitter and raising enough of a stink about it to get you fired for being somewhere different than your boss on the political spectrum.
But here we are.
I believe the only way to deter a boss like that from firing somebody like they did is to be selective in this way about who gets my money and who doesn't, and to voice why I'm making that decision where that person can hear it.
Mind, I'm also not someone who believes in single chances; as per the reports, UWE talked with them about the tweets and they chose to stand by them. They made it clear they would be damaging to potential future colleagues and therefore had to go. Simple as that.
The idea that UWE did this for publicity or out of fear for mobs is, btw, preposterous. I mean, look at most of you being a mob just as much. A decision either way would've brought trouble for UWE; might as well stick to what they committed too.
Yeah, what Simon did was probably stupid and shortsighted. However, it wasn't at all illegal and what he said didn't strike me as hateful (blunt and poorly worded maybe) and it seems like firing was an extreme kneejerk reaction to an online lynch mob. Like he said, he expected a public distancing of the company from his opinions and a private reprimand (which seems like it would have been appropriate), but making a public spectacle of his firing sends unpleasant messages to me about who the devs are, even if it's just incompetence with handling these kinds of messy PR situations. If he really did need to go, do it quietly and don't make a spectacle out of it to appease the unappeasable, that will just embolden them to make bigger and bigger stinks/tantrums/whatever to get what they want.
It really depends if the conversation (debate) was mutual and respectful. I wasn't clear on that. You can't fault the guy for having differing opinions if he's respectful about expressing them.
His meme post I didn't find particularly offensive (but I'm not into such things and I took it as a disagreeing eyeroll, it may have more meaning than that, I'm not sure).
The comments about IQ and such, while possibly factually accurate, aren't clear enough to be sure they are talking negatively about the people themselves, as if that's part of who they are, or merely stating facts (I mean, If you grew up in a crazy area where there's gangs, drugs, abuse, thugs abducted your mom when you were 8 and your Dad died trying to prevent it, and you've been taking care of your little brother ever since, you wouldn't really have time to nourish that high IQ, and you might even steal things!).
I would however love to see how that is handled when that shoe is on another foot, however. Say, right-wing owned coffee shop fires employee for posting that "conservative tools are destroying our planet" or "conservatives are responsible for the death of thousands of children due to school shootings".
Is it in the right-wing coffee shop's rights to do so? Sure. But imagine the backlash. A lot of people are probably angry just thinking about it right now after reading this.
But at the same time, if the employee is always posting about stuff from work and how he loves working there... I can see how they have an image to uphold (what they stand for).
Purchasing a product which in this case would be a game is not just a way for the consumer to gain said product but to support the makers of said product. If the makers of said product act in a way that is considered deplorable or unsavoury to the customer, why wouldn't said customer want to not support them?
I'd argue that the very basis of firing an employee based on their publicised comments is exactly to assuage the impact those comments have on customers. Except in this case, firing a worthy employee simply because a small fringe minority of people that an even smaller portion of might be potential customers launched a small smear campaign in order to attack one of Unknown World's employees for their personal comments.
If you consider Yooka Laylee, in which JonTron's contribution was completely cut from the game for arguably more apolitical comments, and the response of the customers versus the small community that reported his comments to the company behind the game- you might surmise that the whiplash for catering to political blackmail (there is little to suggest that this is not a sudden act) is far worse.
Informative post, thank you for the informative links which are handy even for people have been aware of past events and have a good idea of what has transpired.
For what it's worth, I believe that though it may not be necessarily wise in today's world to publicise one's views if they are counter culture to the establishment in most if not all countries, I respect far more that an employee of a company is still a person who has a right to have divergent views, and that such views are not responsible for their talent or competence.
If we support censorship simply because of the status of employment, we are effectively consenting ourselves to such treatment in the future as well. For government jobs that almost sounds reasonable, but in the private sector?
Time has proven, at least in my eyes, repeatedly that catering to a vocal minority who are most likely not even paying customers for a larger part is a poor business choice, and failing to protect employees from attacks by such ill-intent speaks poorly of the company that behaves so.
Like others may think, I believe that if this was not a disastrous knee-jerk reaction, it is a poorly considered one- I have observed far less competent employees to be provided the chance to gracefully quit and seek new work opportunities rather than have the stigma of being fired.
I personally will not be purchasing anything from Unknown Worlds Entertainment again, as I do not support their business practices any longer.
QFT