Shade hive - Fix needed?
MoFo1
United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
The main issue with shade hive...
Phantom inconsistency
-The problem- Some players can see lvl 3 cloaked skulks like they're lit up with bright neon skins, while others can't see a lvl 3 cloaked skulk right in front of their face.
For players who cannot see cloaked aliens, this causes two issues
1) It makes Phantom seem way more powerful to them than it actually is.
2) It makes it feel like the people who can see you super easy are cheating.
-Solutions= a) Fix cloaking so that it's visibility is the same for everyone regardless of their equipment or settings? b) make it so lvl 3 cloaked aliens are easier to see while moving, and completely 100% invisible while stationary? c) Remove the cloaking aspect of phantom and replace it with something else (a personal hallucination that splits off you once you take dmg maybe?)
Alternatively... Could give Marines better tools to combat shade hive... Currently it seems the only real way to counter it is by having a commander who scans and drops forward observatories. What if we gave Marines some structures to drop similar to how it was done in combat... For instance you could buy an "observatory pack" from the armory and drop/build it at a forward location.. (obviously a weaker version)
Just some ideas... I'm a huge fan of phantom myself, but I really think shade could use some tweaks as it's by far the most brutally unforgiving hive to play against as Marine.
Discuss.
Phantom inconsistency
-The problem- Some players can see lvl 3 cloaked skulks like they're lit up with bright neon skins, while others can't see a lvl 3 cloaked skulk right in front of their face.
For players who cannot see cloaked aliens, this causes two issues
1) It makes Phantom seem way more powerful to them than it actually is.
2) It makes it feel like the people who can see you super easy are cheating.
-Solutions= a) Fix cloaking so that it's visibility is the same for everyone regardless of their equipment or settings? b) make it so lvl 3 cloaked aliens are easier to see while moving, and completely 100% invisible while stationary? c) Remove the cloaking aspect of phantom and replace it with something else (a personal hallucination that splits off you once you take dmg maybe?)
Alternatively... Could give Marines better tools to combat shade hive... Currently it seems the only real way to counter it is by having a commander who scans and drops forward observatories. What if we gave Marines some structures to drop similar to how it was done in combat... For instance you could buy an "observatory pack" from the armory and drop/build it at a forward location.. (obviously a weaker version)
Just some ideas... I'm a huge fan of phantom myself, but I really think shade could use some tweaks as it's by far the most brutally unforgiving hive to play against as Marine.
Discuss.
Comments
1) You need to consider that cloaked players make sounds... before they get into Position to "sneak" they'll make sounds... so I always have a pretty precise estimate where they are. In ns2 you can hear silently the enemy over quite a huge distance... being able to make you invisible is no excuse to not approach silently
2) Cloakingpositions are blurry, if you are hiding in a "well known" spot - for me - than I'll always find you... people often use the same ambushspots "cloaked" as they use without cloak... these spot's I spot instantly.. so basically no smart positioning you'll be spotted
3) When you move slowly your "invisibility" gets broken:
a) I can see you better
b) Even if I'm not looking directly at you, you somehow show up on the map... and that's the moment you'll get hit... Lately I see a lot of skulks on the map, while I see on my screen nothing (and I have my map really transparent - I just notice a new skulk blinking up at my position)
On a sidenote: if a marine is directly above or below a skulk you'll see it on the map without looking at eachother (don't know if invisibility helps though - didn't test that)
In other words, a smart skulk can still easily ambush me with very smart phantom - use ... and that is already insanely powerful.
NS2 maps already have tons of hidingspots to hide - so improving it to complete invisibility might just turn the game into a bad-balanced mess once again.
While I appreciate the advice...you missed the point entirely.
The effect of phantom depends on whether or not the players on marine can spot cloaked aliens...
If they can't = phantom seems insanely overpowered
If they can = phantom is useless compared to focus/aura
It's inconsistent. I couldn't even begin to guess how many times over the years I've heard some rookie complain "There's no way you saw me cloaked, quit hacking"
If you noticed I also offered a solution that involved removing cloak entirely...
Yeah my aim sucks, but that's irrelevant to this discussion... Please try to stay on topic.
Afaik this only works for skulks directly below you. I am not sure if this applies for things above you aswell. Would need to test that ofcourse.
I'm pretty sure it is... that it needs to be on the Y-Axe, I've had that for example on tram in oxy (above the stairs), in repair in the hidingspot above the rt or repair in the vent above the hallway
@MoFo1
They way phantom is implemented: I think it's fine the way it is... I get ambushed with phantom even though I actively "search" for the skulks.
The combination that Aliens have skulks with Silence, Aura and Phantom is a really a hard nut to crack. The obvious counter is that the commander uses scans from time to time so you can effectively push or get a pg up... just a little bit more
Two things which I would change:
1) I think it would be more crucial to change the description for phantom. That you point out, that you are not completely invisible and marines can spot you.
2) I think the fact, that I see a skulk on the map, which moved extremely slow forward for a part of a second is the bigger issue here - beacuse it is still almost 100% invisible
Example I had in system on veil:
Few days ago I was almost exactly aiming at an invisible skulk, BUT I didn't notice it (yet). I had my map open as well.
When the skulk pressed forward to move like 1cm, he was still almost 100% invisible... maybe like 90%... Since it wasn't very close I would thave never noticed the skulk if I didn't have my crossair right beside the skulk BUT I saw it on my map -> killed it
Hand-held motion tracker!
Nope, anything within 1.75 meters (about 6 feet) is spotted no matter what line of sight or direction you're facing. The distance is also measured from one entity's feet to the other entity's feet, which is why it may seem more pronounced when a skulk is below a marine versus a marine below a skulk. It has been proposed to UWE to remove this minimap functionality/bug/feature, but they say removing it could introduce performance problems.
Naah, too op ^
Hand-held motion tracker!
1. Its "anti gameplay" in every aspect in that it goes against every other mechanic and principle of aliens as a whole esp early on (parasiting, teamplay)
2. Its also extremely op for resbiting on maps with lot vents like veil, its super easy to get on the backres and then you just swap biting spots and never die until 4-5 marines have to leave their position just for you, then just repeat, and you dont need celerity to do that anymore
3. It is extremely op for ambushing too for any lifeform it is far better than having carapace in terms of survivability when you can land the first bite/swipe on your own terms
You might ask what changed, wasnt aura always like this?
4. Since silence can now be combined with aura you can do both of the above at max speed around the map for the ultimate cheese / autopilot / ignore all mechanics and the game reward you for it, just look at hive start winrates.
On these servers that display M / A skill how many ppl with higher M than A? None and how many A > M ? Effectively everyone
6. Celerity and carapace, competing upgrades have been made obsolete by balance changes that didnt affect them directly (superskulk, superlerk)
Fix (can be combined, by order of preference)
0fix other aspects of the game that led this to happen
1delete aura, goes against the flow of the game
2reduce the range by half at every level
5give it another effect altogether, like all your attacks deal parasite any lifeform, for skulks parasite last longer
6do not display health info
Absolutely, twas never intended, for good reasons.
If you listen closely, you can do everything you can do with with aura with silence - but faster, because you don't need to shift walk constantly. Current vanilla silence can turn you into a resbiting and harrassing god against unaware marines, and is still very powerful at catching good marines off guard.
Of course you have nice information, but it's range limited... just because one person has aura doesn't mean you know everything what's going on the map without exchanging information.
If there is a skulk behind enemy lines and you need 4 Marines to clear him, then that is your own inability to coordinate your movement/rotations.
In general your arguments feels pretty weak. Sounds like that just you cannot handle it...
This is a problem though as most commanders do not drop scans or forward observatories when Aliens go shade.. Then they complain when the team is unable to push or defend.
A motion tracker would be nice, but it'd have to be like built onto the gun (an attatchment?) to be of any use... If you had to switch back and forth.. well then you're just a walking snack relaying information to your team in the hopes that they can keep you alive = not fun.
Still think giving Marines some weaker structures for them to place and build would help both balance wise (compensating somewhat for lack of structure drops by the comm) while introducing more gameplay features and variety in strategies. (thus injecting some much needed fun into playing Marine)
And as far as Aura goes... I personally loathe it on Marine, and love it on Alien... It feels insanely overpowered, especially in the hands of a lerk/fade since it lets them prioritize the injured targets while at the same time avoiding ambushes and being pinched. It would be nice if Marines had a tool to counter it... Something they could buy to conceal them, or even better, an item they could drop & build that would throw up fake aura icons in a radius (a pheromone generator?)
yes and its always been the same dumb anti gameplay mechanic. Your logic: the plague has been around since forever, the plague is alright.
And I already answered this just a few post above so plz git gud at reading properly senior.
You know everything you need to effortlessly make your way passed the average skilled marines and resbite in total impunity on the most played maps, you can easily monopolize the attention of many average skilled people and still often get away as just the base unit, is that normal? is that good design? When people get aware how op it is youll see everyone starts using aura hive all the time.
Dude we get it you have a big elo dick and cant thinks outside his own little person viewpoint therefore thinks the game should be balanced around his/her own skill level (ignoring the existence and purpose of compmod), as opposed to the average skill level which would instead benefit the whole mass of the playerbase.
I know laning fine btw but one man carry only can so much, when on the other side of the map your team is not responding properly you cant do anything about it.
Im not trying to convey strong arguments just discuss the truth of the matter, but if youre into that there seems to be no shortage of talk misinterpreters, misrepresenter, always unable of proper reading / understanding and or twisting the facts around here.
STOP
There needs to be a distinction between skill and decision making ability. You cannot balance for poor decision making abilities, you can only educate.
And while tutorials are welcome we shouldnt consider balance a "work in progress" until everyone reaches 4k elo.
The way it works any PvP game not designed for esports from the get-go (unlike CSGO, Overwatch etc) rightfully balance for medium-high skill because thats where it matters.
Then, if a competitive scene emerges, like in Quake Arena, Call of Duty 4 and NS2 theres a "promod" to correct very high skill balance. Whats the problem with this system again?
And the lack of welding gets instantly taken advantage of due to aura.. that is a thing that ppl need to be aware of...
Still I have doubts they'll work on that...
The discussion with the AntiAuraFetishGuy feels like such a waste of time for me..
I would say that anyone pathetic enough to go into my profile and "disagree" bomb the first 10 - 12 pages of my comments (including things like me presenting a map I made and geometry doorframes I built as prefabs to give to people if they wanted them) ... is probably someone you shouldn't/needn't debate with... they lack the mental capacity to understand basic logic and will respond to opposing views in childish ways... just ignore him and hope he goes away.
Obscuring it through walls kind of defeats the purpose of having it, at that point its just an HP monitor. Aura is a very powerful alien upgrade. It gives away positions through walls and HP status, outlining the marine models would allow you to see which way their facing, making initializing engagements even easier, not a good idea to make it more viable then it already is. Best leave that job to skulks to promote parasite usage.