Whinge
Kaine
Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1096Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-08-07 Member: 1096Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Mostly about fades.</div> back info- i only really play Marines, but when i've play aliens the same thing has happened
Every game i've played lately (and thats alot) the game goes something like this:
Start
Aliens skulk rush marines... (ok, fine, fair enuf)
Marines take one hive
Aliens finnish building second hive
Fades start appearing, one or two at first, then the whole alien team.
Marine outposts get acid-rocketted to oblivion, and marines get slaughtered, while the fades die only very rarely. (even when hmgs and grenguns are out this doesn't change much, it is too easy for aliens to avoid grenades)
Marines hole up in base with gg and hmgs and maybe jetpacks fighting off constant fade raids
Fades slowly break marine defences
Marines lose.
Aliens never bother getting 3rd hive (or get it just for novelty sake)
end whinge. i am not going to go into rants about what i think needs changing, or whats wrong with it exactly or anything, just wanted to state fact and leave. please let balance be returned in 1.4. its stupid that marines have more to fear from fades than onos.
Every game i've played lately (and thats alot) the game goes something like this:
Start
Aliens skulk rush marines... (ok, fine, fair enuf)
Marines take one hive
Aliens finnish building second hive
Fades start appearing, one or two at first, then the whole alien team.
Marine outposts get acid-rocketted to oblivion, and marines get slaughtered, while the fades die only very rarely. (even when hmgs and grenguns are out this doesn't change much, it is too easy for aliens to avoid grenades)
Marines hole up in base with gg and hmgs and maybe jetpacks fighting off constant fade raids
Fades slowly break marine defences
Marines lose.
Aliens never bother getting 3rd hive (or get it just for novelty sake)
end whinge. i am not going to go into rants about what i think needs changing, or whats wrong with it exactly or anything, just wanted to state fact and leave. please let balance be returned in 1.4. its stupid that marines have more to fear from fades than onos.
Comments
a marine is free...
fades must be worth their price!
For the record, I played in a pickup game yesterday that lasted about 2 hours, most of which was a losing battle on the part of marines. The aliens probably had 2 hives for 3/4 of the game... but couldn't touch us because we kept the pressure on even in the face of Fades. The game only ended when 2 Onos finally stormed our base... after the 3rd hive had been built.
/feels another fade war coming on D:
also i apologise if i'm brining up something thats been argued to death, i spend all my time in the models/skins forum <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
In the vast majority of games I play, the marines do nothing but defend areas while the aliens do nothing but attack the marines. There is nothing in the game that mandates this as the only way to play, its just the way things seemed to have evolved on pub servers. In the game I just played, which lasted for over an hour so it was not a rush by any means, we did not build a single turret or siege outside the main base, not even in conquered hives. Granted they did take a couple hives back, but that means that we had the initiative and they were forced on defense, while wasting res on rebuilding. It was just like playing a real RTS, after each wave of attackers had petered out, there was fresh equipment at base, ready for another wave.
When all marines do is defend, the aliens progress rockets ahead of them at full strength, while they entrench and waste valuable time. When they attack, they hurt the aliens progress, while freeing up resources for tech.
I challenge the notion that marines only option is to secure hives.
In the vast majority of games I play, the marines do nothing but defend areas while the aliens do nothing but attack the marines. There is nothing in the game that mandates this as the only way to play, its just the way things seemed to have evolved on pub servers. In the game I just played, which lasted for over an hour so it was not a rush by any means, we did not build a single turret or siege outside the main base, not even in conquered hives. Granted they did take a couple hives back, but that means that we had the initiative and they were forced on defense, while wasting res on rebuilding. It was just like playing a real RTS, after each wave of attackers had petered out, there was fresh equipment at base, ready for another wave.
When all marines do is defend, the aliens progress rockets ahead of them at full strength, while they entrench and waste valuable time. When they attack, they hurt the aliens progress, while freeing up resources for tech.
I challenge the notion that marines only option is to secure hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree one hundred percent with the last sentence.
I have played a good many games on both sides of the fence. The marines will win the majority of the time if they immediately lock down/move to a hive in the first minute and then right after that start putting pressure on the second hive.
Most games I have won as marines (and I have won a number as either comm or a grunt) we acquired the first hive off a rush and the second hive soon after. The trick is that the marines HAVE to work together.
In most these instances what will happen is the aliens will get the second hive up long enough for one or two aliens to evolve to fade. As we tf/t/seige a hiden or well defensible location the fades and rest of the aliens attach us there. We keep the pressure up get the second hive and kill the few aliens that made it to fade. At that point its a game of attrition. The marines keep the 2 hives locked down, maybe some slow expansion for a few more res nodes. After a reasonable amount of time for teching up the marines (minus a couple to defend the 2 hives) mop up.
Game ends about 15 minutes after second hive is locked down. (That is if all the aliens stay in the game cuz they are tired of tired of only having skulk/lerk/gorge as options.)
I have seen marines win with only 1 hive. But in most the cases the aliens did not work well togehter and/or ignored the marine resource nodes, which let the marines get insane tech that they otherwise could not have afforded.
One of the biggest reasons the marines keep losing is skimpy commanders. I see commanders waste billions of res building some stupid turret farm, leaving their marines with nothing but lmgs to combat fades with.
Now I was just in a game where the commander was smart. He equiped his team with HA/HMG, GL etc. HA/HMG make massive, high damage, high hp moving turrets, and can waste fades like you wouldn't believe. I, as a carapaced, celerity fade could barely take one out, usually with 30 hp left. But carapace gave me 2.5x more damage capacity. If it were the regen fades, then they'd fall before doing any significant dmg.
The only time fades are overpowered is when they're facing unarmored lmg marines. However, a HA/HMG is MASSIVELY overpowered when facing a skulk.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The reason these comm's could be skimpy is out of trial and error. They've been raised trying to command marines who can't figure out that they shant load up 50000000 rounds of LMG ammo as soon as they spawn, and THEN proceed to defend what ever Phase gated area the comm screams for. If marines knew the value of constant patrolling all marine assets, and going through the PG's BEFORE they stock ammo - just ot see if not their natural born 110 rounds couldn't be put up to something good - well perhaps comms would rely more on marine guard duty than being forced to turret up everything.
I don't see anything wrong with moving the fades back to how they were in 1.0. They were slower, they were weaker, acid rocket was stronger but less rapidly firing...
The problem is, the dev team overcompensated for marine domination in 1.0. The imbalance wasn't with the fades, it was with other alien classes, but for some reason they changed the fades.
Uhm. No? The Onos is definitely more effective than a fade. An onos will clear a base, two onos will win a game. Next.
Now, the thing about fades is this. Marines are often scared of fades. They see fade and think "Oh no, the game is over". Then they run and hide, and that's the end of the game.
When I play (and I play aliens and marines equally, I prefer switching after each round. I can't stand people that can only play one team), I rush fades. I kill fades. I scare fades off. Then suddenly, my marines realise "Hey, we can kill these buggers". Suddenly, fades aren't so scary anymore, and suddenly they aren't turning the tide of the game anymore.
The problem isn't with fades, it is totally with the marines. If you play on a server with regular expert players, you'll see fades are not feared, they are expected. If you play expecting the fades without fearing them, you are gonna do alot better. When I'm on my regular server (Vadakill), the marines DO take one hive. You can't let aliens get Onos. The marines also take a res or two, in suitable places. Near base, near the hive, or a location with more than one res (Freight elevator, reactor room, atmospheric processing, etc...). The marines do NOT build craploads of turrets. They play smart, getting upgrades, killing alien resources, slowing down the gorge. Around the time fades are showing up, marines have a few upgrades. Often, marines will lose a res or two (sometimes they can hold it).
Once the fades begin bearing down on the hive / base / important res, the marines leap out and fight back. Level 2-3 upgrades, armor / jetpacks, HMG's / GL's. They were not wasting res in their base building turrets where they weren't needed, they were slowly biding their time getting ready for a counter attack. This is extremely similar to skulks waiting for 44 (now 54) res to go to fade. How much does a HA/HMG cost? 25 for the HMG and whatever for the armor. Not far off from a fade.
When the marines play better, the fades are no longer a threat. The game maintains balance, and it becomes an even match of upgrades marines VS upgraded aliens (lerks, skulks, fades, gorges, they all contribute in the mid game).
I've found the real unbalance is when a team of crazy good skulks works together, because then marines can't secure res or a hive. The lower carapace will help for that, but I hope it doesn't hurt the mid game balance (that I've found to be present in 1.04).
Ravlen
Conclusion? The game is balanced except that the marines get their equipment too late in the game to be able to effectively combat fades. Therefore id suggest making ha/hmg research and spawning them cheaper and put in some preventative measure to keep the marines from rushing 2 hives so easily and i think the games will be much more balanced
Inexorable's "<span style='color:yellow'>Ultimate Sarcasm</span>" version:
Ah, but you forgot the phase gates, Inexorable. Totally inexcusable, what turret farm is complete without a phase gate? Why, if you didn't build all those turrets at the resource points, Fades would just come up and eat them for lunch. Marines are too stupid to take advantage of armor upgrades anyway, so building turret farms (with phase gates) every 50 feet or so is the only real option to keep the aliens out.
See? It sounds almost exactly like the warbling cry of the Obsessive-Compulsive Turret Farmer, yet has just enough subtle flaws to expose it as the sarcasm it is, an not mindless ranting.
~I jump in chair
~Defend Initial pointless skulk rush
~build 2x Ip's
~build armory
~while stuff is being built, i find the hive (move your screen over a hive location and listen for the heart beat sound)
~Build observatory
~Build phase gate
~On voice comm -- "Their Hive is Maintainance. Raf, I need you to go to computer core with a few people, and Jew, I need you to head to eclipse with some friends. One person stay back and guard the base."
~The team moves out on my command. Most of the time we have 9 players on the team. So 3 go to one hive, 3 to the other, the comm, a base defender and one wandering dumb ****.
~The players arrive at their hives.
*Note: I dont have to give waypoints to these players because they know exactly where to go
~I drop a phase in Eclipse
~I drop a phase in Comp Core
~I drop a RT in eclipse
~I drop a RT in comp core.
*Note, if for some reason skulks overtake one of the phase areas, I get on voice comm and say "The people at comp core just got owned, I need anyone near a phase get to get their". 100% of the time, everyone listens and the rest of the team is there instantly.
~Since Comp core is closer to MA then EC is, I build a TF there in a well cornered area.
~Drop 2 turrets to guard factory, and one to guard the phase
~Drop TF in EC
~Drop 2 turrets to guard factory, and one to guard the phase
~At this point, I alternate between hives. Dropping 1 turret every 19 resources
*Another note. If the main base ever gets under attack, I get on voice comm and say "Main is under attack, they are attacking....blah, get here quick" 6 players instantly pop back (thats if the base defender died of course)
At this point the team and I have successfully secured 2 hives. Here is what usually happens next.
~A gorge picks one of the hives we built at, or the base and starts building outside of it.
~My marines are always checking outside the base for these things so its <i>usually</i> no surprise.
~SoBe.Lightning gets on voice comm "Dragon they are building outside comp core, we need siege"
~The available marines usually try to rush the gorge to stop him from building.
~Upgrade TF for siege
~Drop siege
~Problem Solved
Continuing the game, i nab RT's around the map, and get JP's and HMG's. Game Over
-Suppose we are doing this and Comp core gets taken over? Or we cant hold it in the first place...
~Me on voice comm "Alright, forget CC, i need 3 or 4 people to gather up at horseshoe
~they gather
~Ok move out as a team, we are gonna siege MA
~Drop a phase outside MA
~drop TF
~2 towers to guard
~upgrade
~drop siege
~siege main hive and take that over....we still hold 2 hives
The most important thing is to make sure the aliens dont get 2 hives. If they do, taking out fades is tough for marines if we dont have JP's or HA. One of these days i'll submit a demo with this strat.
its usually 8v8. Marines (working as a team) > skulks.
We will always have AT LEAST one hive. So, if one of my teams get jumped, I simply say "Ok we are having some trouble getting to EC. One person stay in CC and build, one guard the base, EVERYONE else go to EC together." My forces are now distributed like this
~Comm
~Base guard
~Builder at CC
~5 marines heading to EC
~No band of 70hp 10ap skulks is gonna take that out. The reason for that is because all of my men know how to shoot, and usually wont be over run.
Like I said, the most important thing is to take and hold TWO hives, not one and then upgrade armor and stuff. If the aliens are working together, one of those hives <i>will</i> be undefended. Its the comms job to check out the situation and decide which hive is easier to take over. And the majority of the game should be focusing on getting that hive. If for some reason we cant hold either hive, then we do this
~since we know we are working against the clock, we try to nab 2 or 3 nodes asap
~upgrade jetpacks
~give JPs and welders to 2 marines.
~Since they are smart, they take that welder, go to the hive i tell them to, and weld the hayle out of it
~Also, since they are smart, they jump on top of the hive which makes them really hard to get to, and hard to get hit from O chambers
~If that fails, then we upgrade HMg's and try to drop a hive that way
~If we cant do that (which rarely happens), then we deserved to lose
I know i am leaving something out