ns2_tram_nextstop

pSyk0mAn · December 2017

After too many terrible rounds on tram with high player count or high elo Marines, I'm trying to improve the map mostly for Aliens.
For now mostly just subtle improvements and changes just like in Summit_andabove.

publish_id = "48b95c32"

Changelog:
-Added a tram + container in South Tunnels outside of Shipping to improve Shipping start and cysting for Aliens
-Added more starting cysts to Shipping
-Added more starting cysts to Server
-Added more crates to Logistics to reduce the exposure for Aliens, when defending Logistics harvester from Shipping (might need more obstacles there)
-Added more crates in Hub
-Added a broken wall at North Tunnels and some crates at possible ARC spots to make sieging Warehouse hive slightly harder
-Added terminal next to the ladder in Mezza and removed the railing so all classes can jump up there. This change is mostly for Marines to improve battles with Gorge Tunnel in Mezza, which most likely happens when Aliens start in Warehouse, which is their best starting location.
The biggest change:
-Added a floor vent between Hub and Elevator to slightly reduce the power of lane blocking in and around Hub.
I didn't wanna add a super sneaky vent around that area, unaccessable by Marines, because lane blocking in Hub kinda is what makes Tram the map it is. With this vent Marines from Hub can still see and shoot Aliens using that lane or even use the vent themselves.
This improves the chances for Aliens to get from Server to Elevator to Observation and vice versa.
It also improves Elevator expansion hive for Aliens, because now they can flank Marines and especially ARCs from Hub using that vent.

pSyk0mAn · December 2017

Update:
-Fixes to Occlusion Geo (Thanks Zavaro!)
-Fixed hole in map and random terminal overlord prop watching the map from far away (thanks Beigealert!)
-Marines can jump on the rail of the crane arm in Hub again (thanks Mephilles)
-Moved the new vent from Mezza to Elevator higher to make it less accessable by Marines

G_Lock · December 2017

Standing in front of the vent outside of ET going into hub/mez was an incredibly good and easy place to lane block for marines, glad its getting some attention.

moultano · December 2017

Not sure about the tram and container in south tunnels. Seems like that's going to be too convenient of a place to troll spawners.

Handschuh · December 2017

Please don't remove the existing trickjumps on the maps.
For example the one in Hub was already accessable.
I know the intention is to give a hidingspot / cover for skulks, but can it be done without sacrificing a small trickjump?

List of "Trickjumps" for marines to my knowledge
- Ore-Repairvent: easy from repair; medium from Ore
- Hub: medium, since the 2nd jump on the top can easily be missed as marine
- Mezzvent: hard - easy to miss

Vetinari · December 2017

I think the point of the hub change was to make that beam inaccessible

pSyk0mAn · December 2017

moultano wrote: »

Not sure about the tram and container in south tunnels. Seems like that's going to be too convenient of a place to troll spawners.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea to which spawners you are referring to.
If you think, this might be too hard on Marines spawning in Shipping, take a look at all the other possible Start locations and all the obstacles in and around them.
Imho South Tunnels is still the most open area of all of them and that container tram addition main purpose is to protect the cyst chain from Shipping to Obs. and make it less of a shooting gallery for Marines approaching Shipping.

@Handschuh the trick jump has just slightly changed. I accidently removed it, but Mephilles told me about it and u can get back on top of the crane arm rail now. U just have to use the highest point of the arm itself instead of the end part, where it is attached to the rail.

Handschuh · December 2017

Okay, I'll check it out once it's on a server how it works out.
It was basically two jumps, first getting onto the crane in the first place, secondly getting on top (which is in my opinion harder, since you can miss it)
The first jump - as far as I can see - was removed by your change.

pSyk0mAn · March 2018

Update:
-Moved Resnode in Ore Extraction more into the middle. Harder to arc from Hub / Northtunnels, out of Observatory range.
-Added more stuff around Northtunnels to block possible ARC spots.
-Moved Resnode in Server more into the middle of the location. Harder to arc from Mezza, out of Observatory range.

pSyk0mAn · August 2018

Some of the recent changes from the last weeks/months :
-Moved the powernode in Observation around the corner. Gorges can't spit it from the vent anymore.
-Added more obstacles in Logistics to improve the Shipping Hive situation (being arced or Harvester harassment),
while not affecting Marines defending Logistics as their natural.

-Smoothed out movement around the Tram in Hub. No more need to jump or get stuck around the Tram as walkerfade.

-Smoothed out a few more spots with collision geometry.
-Several minor fixes like replacing old glass in Platform ceiling, prop scaling, reflections, yada yada.

The_Welsh_Wizard · August 2018

pSyk0mAn wrote: »

-Moved the powernode in Observation around the corner. Gorges can't spit it from the vent anymore.

Hmm not really a fan of this.

skav2 · August 2018

I hate gorges spitting the power node from that vent but.... I think it should stay. It is a great distraction.

pSyk0mAn · August 2018

Unfortunately it's more than just a distraction and a lot of ppl agree with that.
A Gorge can kill the power node with babblers and spit in no time!
A Gorge can spit the welding Marine the whole time without being killed. So you either need 2 Marines or lot of Medpacks.
It's annoying and a Marine noobtrap.

In my version a Gorge can still attack the power node with Babblers, if it shoots the ball correctly, but can't spit it.
Skulks are still able to parasite Marines building the power node from farther away and can even sneak up onto them, because building Marines can't overlook the entire ceiling area coming from that vent.

pSyk0mAn · September 2018

-Added more cover to the area between Hub and ET to make it harder for Marines to attack ET Hive.
-Added more dodging spots in the hallway between Warehouse and Ore; Gorges can get closer to bile too.

pSyk0mAn · September 2018

-Created more space at the sides and ceiling of the door leading into Repair Room from Logistics, which should give Skulks coming from Shipping a better way to get closer to Marines in Repair.

-Added a vent from Shipping to Logistic.
Should only be useful for Aliens starting in Shipping. Marines starting in Shipping can cover 100% of the vent from both sides pretty easily.
No Lifeform hiding or hopefully otherwise exploitable against Marines starting in Shipping.

I'm also thinking about adding another vent to improve Shipping for Aliens. It's marked on the minimap of the 2nd screenshot. Leading from South Tunnels to the ET vent.
Not really sure about it tho, since it probably won't be impactful enough for Shipping Aliens (too long travel time) and might mess too much with Marine Shipping start.
It's just that the entire south tunnels area feels so useless with Shipping Aliens compared to North Tunnels for Warehouse Aliens and they lack some kind of shortcut there similar to the North Tunnels - Mezza vent.

The_Welsh_Wizard · September 2018

Instead of adding too many vents which would make Shipping start annoying to both Marines and Aliens, I suggest you just disable Shipping start for aliens, as it should be made years ago already.

Kasharic · September 2018

Removing shipping start for aliens is bad idea encouraged by people that don't know how to play tram as aliens.

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The vent proposal for south tunnels to ET is something I would argue against pretty strongly, I mean sure, it would make south spawning aliens easier, but it would also make south spawning marines soooo much harder.

The_Welsh_Wizard · September 2018

I don't think it is neccessary to insult me because I have a different opinion on random spawns? With your logic you could allow every possible spawn for every team on every map, because hey, you obviously don't know how to play the map if you don't want to allow every spawn.

The point is, Shipping is just a much worse start for aliens than Server and especially Warehouse. I don't like that the spawn randomness has a meaningful impact on who wins the round. Also, making a room a possible start for both teams always means making compromises, which leads to suboptimal marine and alien spawns instead of having just one team spawning with the map layout adjusting to just that.

I mean you said it yourself, you implemented the vent to help aliens spawning there, but you also hope it won't annoy marines too much. It's a compromise, it makes marine start less optimal and it isn't enough to make alien start good enough.

Kasharic · September 2018

The_Welsh_Wizard wrote: »

I don't think it is neccessary to insult me because I have a different opinion on random spawns? With your logic you could allow every possible spawn for every team on every map, because hey, you obviously don't know how to play the map if you don't want to allow every spawn.

The point is, Shipping is just a much worse start for aliens than Server and especially Warehouse. I don't like that the spawn randomness has a meaningful impact on who wins the round. Also, making a room a possible start for both teams always means making compromises, which leads to suboptimal marine and alien spawns instead of having just one team spawning with the map layout adjusting to just that.

I mean you said it yourself, you implemented the vent to help aliens spawning there, but you also hope it won't annoy marines too much. It's a compromise, it makes marine start less optimal and it isn't enough to make alien start good enough.

I didn't insult you, I just stated that you don't know how to play tram as alien... thats not an insult... maybe I should clarify, you don't know how to play alien with a shipping spawn on tram...

I base that judgement off of the fact that you're asking for shipping spawn to be removed, twisting that argument into me advocating that all spawns should be allowed on all maps at all times is a ludicrous leap.

Some setups work, some don't, shipping is a skill issue, not a spawn issue... Do I think shipping spawn can be improved? sure I do, almost all map spawns could be improved, that is the nature of NS2, the balance changes impact how people play the game, which rolls onto how balanced a map is... Summit is a prime example of this, 2 - 3 years ago, Summit was great, after some balance changes it was way too marine favoured, Loki made some changed and then Psyk made some more changes and now its back to feeling nicely balanced again.

To outright call for a spawn to be removed that has been working for years and has seen relatively balanced play just screams to me that you just simply don't understand how to play that spawn... I'm by no means saying the spawn is flawless bare in mind, just that removing it is a bad idea, you're free to disagree if you like.

To back up why I think you're wrong, you say that server room is a better spawn... a spawn that is further away from the center of the map and has 2 lanes that can relatively easily be blocked off, resulting in a bottleneck stomp against the aliens... you think that is a better choice than shipping with its 3 lane exit, with bypass vents and fast routes to the center of the map.

pSyk0mAn · September 2018

Wonitor says Server is just as bad or even worse for Aliens than Shipping.
Shipping is already improved on Tram_nextstop, because ET is a more viable Hive due to my changes.
I'd rather say Warehouse is the problem of being too good, because it's too close to the center of the map, especially with that North Tunnels - Mezz vent.

@Kasharic I pretty much dropped the vent idea in South Tunnels, don't worry, Its impact on shortening Alien traveltime, like the MEzz vent does, wouldn't be enough compared to the trouble for Marines.

Handschuh · September 2018

@Kasharic @The_Welsh_Wizard
About Shippingspawn:
a) For default tram I am all in for removing that spawnpoint, because once Marines learn how to lane it is simply unfair ...if Aliens don't get rapey lerks
b) That doesn't mean I think we should exclude the possibility to make ns2_tram_next stop viable for Shipping as Alien Spawn.

Generally I'm not opposed in trying out that vent... I don't have any ideas right now how to do it better...

Mephilles · September 2018

Just saying for tram server spawn on aliens only works if you manage to get the ore or warehouse tunnel up. Otherwise you are fucked by default, with the exception the entire team knows how to play tram without gorge.

Similar goes for shipping spawn imo. If marines have warehouse or serverspawn just get the tunnel up on the other side. (With marines starting in warehouse it is hard due to marines being in hub very fast)

Also imo once marines learn how to lane, tram generally is simply unfair. Doesn't matter which spawns.

Kasharic · September 2018

If you're going to remove a spawn, I could get behind removing aliens shipping vs marines warehouse. Simply because of how fast and easily marines can take a large portion of the map.

Outright removal of shipping spawn would be bad imo.

Tram is in general a relatively marine favoured map, so I enjoy seeing peoples own takes on how to improve that, I have ideas myself, but I wouldn't want to do them until I'm done with unearthed.

pSyk0mAn · July 2019

(just posting this here to have a public changelog to link)

Recent changelog in tram_nextstop up for testing:
-Moved the ET-Mezz vent more to the south (into the closed door) and created space between pillar and wall to help Aliens getting closer to it.
-Fixed semi-hidden upgrade structure spot in Server
-Added a little opening between Warehouse entrance and North Tunnels (similar to redux vent), which can be used for bilebombing, but players can't go through
-Added a ladder into the Shipping-Logistics vent, so a single Marine from Shipping has more tools to challenge single Aliens using that vent.

ns2_tram_nextstop

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