Marines Have An Advantage Early Game?
SoulSkorpion
Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What game are YOU playing on?</div> I've seen more and more people saying that marines have the advantage in the early stages of the game. I'd really like to know what game these people are playing, because when I last checked a skulk can take out a single marine in two bites. A good skulk can take down three marines at once. A good skulk in a good ambush spot can wipe out the entire team in one pass.
Honestly, I'd love to know where these mythical games are when the marines have an advantage against skulks, in the opening of the game. It's not just the l33t m3l33z0r d00ds (like me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) who eat marines for breakfast, most servers I join EVERYONE gets easy kills off the marines early game.
So what is it? The marines in some part of the world are better shots? The kharaa community in said part of the world can't dodge? I'd really like to know how this one works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Honestly, I'd love to know where these mythical games are when the marines have an advantage against skulks, in the opening of the game. It's not just the l33t m3l33z0r d00ds (like me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) who eat marines for breakfast, most servers I join EVERYONE gets easy kills off the marines early game.
So what is it? The marines in some part of the world are better shots? The kharaa community in said part of the world can't dodge? I'd really like to know how this one works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
a skulk can kill a marine in two bites, true, but a good marine will be able to mow that skulk down before he closes distance, and will cover his buddies to prevent ambush.
comm can hand out shotguns and the skulks are screwed if the troops know how to use em.
comm can HMG rush, another painful strategy.
comm can build 10 infantry portals and send every marine straight at the hive and simply out-spawn them.
I'm still not convinced.
If we compare equal "leetness" in both skulks and marines, outside of 10 feet, the marine will win if equal "leetness", inside of 10 feet, the skulk will win against even a large number of grouped up marines. Where the problem comes into effect, the skilled skulk will find a good vantage point, and wait for marines to come to them, and the skilled marine will be checking all those vantage points, or having the comm scan ahead of him. Therefore the advantage goes back in the marines favor.
What I tend to do (and i am far from a skilled skulk) is use other players as bait. I know I can eat any group of marines if i can get in the first bite before being shot at. I let marines move into an area, staying still so my movements dont give me away thru noise or motion tracking, then call for backup. Once the marines hear the sounds of approaching skulks, there is a point where you can charge, and get amongst the marines without them noticing. If you pick your ground well as a skulk, you can allow yourself to get an advantage thru patience and backup. Without the advantage of getting close to your enemy before being seen, you do not have a chance vs skilled marines, you are correct..
the marines hive rushed our eclipse, we were wiped out.
god damn respawn time for then is at least half for us so they just took us out when we wern`t their, nect round we tryed to ambush paristed one or two to know where they are and then, splat they just nailed us before we could get close <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
How did they manage that? If they nailed you before you got moving, you should have been moving anyway. Did they nail you closing hte distance? Were you zigzaging across the floor or running straight at them? Were you spiraling (using the walls and ceilings)?
If they nailed you before you got moving, you should have been moving anyway. Did they nail you closing hte distance? Were you zigzaging across the floor or running straight at them? Were you spiraling (using the walls and ceilings)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Moving away, or closing in and dying, it's all the same to the marines as long as no skulks get next to them.
There's only so much zig zagging and spiraling you can do in those hallways. of course marines choose a good spot to dig in. Also a skulk isn't really that fast (only a bit faster than a marine), it's far from impossible to hit a zig-zagging skulk.
Though i must say, lag and packetloss are a skulk's friend. a 'warping' target is hard to hit with a ranged weapon, while it doesn't matter much for a melee weapon.
Marines start out with enough resources to set up a minimum base and a 2nd resource tower practically right away.
While the aliens' 2nd res chamber will be up only after several minutes. It'll take another 2 or 3 more res chambers and then some more time of waiting before the aliens can start thinking some serious upgrading (2nd hive).
As a matter of fact this can take long enough for the marines to occupy -both- hives. (enter long and pointless end-game of HMG/HA marines vs skulks)
So at the start of the game the marines don't have to worry about slowing down the aliens, they can play defensive while doing their initial build up.
If during the early game the aliens would opt for ambush, then they'd just sit and wait while the marines can do the initial build up undisturbed.
The aliens can hardly do anything else except attack the marines to try and slow down marines' progress. That means the skulks can not deploy their strong tactic (ambush) but rather they are forced to expose their weakness (low protection, no ranged weapon) and attack the dug in marines basically head on. Marines don't have much trouble dealing with skulks outside of an ambush situation.
With skulks forced to engage outside of ambush in the early game, the aliens are imo indeed weaker then marines (at the start of the game).
I'll easily score like 0-10 (no kills) before i can get carapace. By then usually the start game is over and we'r in early mid-game. The marines start to expand, which makes them more vulnerable to ambush. Then it turns out i'm not as bad a skulk as my early score would suggest; then i to can take out 2, 3 or 4 marines in a row.
If marines would not play as conservativly as they usually do, they could rush the aliens right from the start and win the game in a matter of minutes most of the time. The few times i'v had this happen there didn't seem to be much we could do about it: the marines take out the hive while the skulks wait to respawn.
In the late game the situation is the reverse of the start game. HA, HMG, GL may be enough to deal with Onos, acid rocket, bile bomb, umbra and spores (that's 3 alien area effect weapons vs 1 marine area effect weapon) in the long run. But with their base under siege the marines do have trouble keeping their res towers (comm is very busy and they can hardly leave base anyway). With reduced resource income the marines soon won't have enough heavy armor and weapons. We all know how that ends.
Fortunately it looks like some of these balance issues will be resolved by the next patch.
and their was around 3 marines that we were gonna bush, so i would think they jumped down just when they went by them, so thats what i did but its real difficult to get a clean close bite and zig zag all over the place, all the marines gotta do is stand still for a second and realease just a stream of bullets randomly and if your useing the skulk i`ll jump around everywhere tactic then you practically run into the bullets.
well something happened after that cos they gor our hive for the second time going.
but basically, in my experience. if you are around 5 steps behind a marine and they turn around to shoot ya, you ain`t got much chance unless you have caraspace or something, but they can start doing their attack way sooner than you can do anything back to them. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This work amazingly well.
3 perfect rounds in a row with about 20+ each. It works REALLY well. I'll never run straight at a marine again.
This work amazingly well.
3 perfect rounds in a row with about 20+ each. It works REALLY well. I'll never run straight at a marine again.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats how you are supposed to play skulk.
if your greatest weakness is closing distance, use the map to your advantage and position yourself so you do not have to close distance.
"war is god's way of teaching us geography"
skulks should become one with their surroundings <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
twas on eclipse, that res right next to marine base, from round that corner to the short opening to the short corridor to the marine door is enough to take out skulk with ease.
How did they manage that? If they nailed you before you got moving, you should have been moving anyway. Did they nail you closing hte distance? Were you zigzaging across the floor or running straight at them? Were you spiraling (using the walls and ceilings)?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a couple people have already stated it doesnt matter at all what evasive techniques you take against a marine , if your in the open , the marine has a clear field of fire and has 10-15 feet between you, you might aswell type kill in console <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still disagree, but me saying "what happens on servers I play on is different" doesn't change your experiences in the slightest, so I'll leave it at that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and soulskorpion, if you are more then 2 seconds from biting range while going after the marines, and they still dont get you more then you get them, its their issue. If they cant take you out in 2 seconds of fire, its shame on them for not hitting you..
Do the marines you play against use formations?
Any skulk who gets close to one marine should be in a perfect fireing position for all the others, tis that simple. One skulk shouldn't be wiping the floor with multiple marines, its impossible to bite one marine AND evade that marine AND evade his 4 buddies. Very few UK pubbies are at this level, infact I only know one of them that is 'sometimes'.
BlueGhost
I've never seen formations employed, actually. Ever. Well, except for HA marines being welded by their welder squires who are obviously behind them. I guess that's the difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and soulskorpion, if you are more then 2 seconds from biting range while going after the marines, and they still dont get you more then you get them, its their issue. If they cant take you out in 2 seconds of fire, its shame on them for not hitting you.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I don't close the distance successfully after they've been firing at me for two seconds, I beat myself with a trout. It doesn't happen very often <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2. Marines are way faster at early games, they can place phasegates and cover great distances in short time - improving the effect of the already faster respawn rate. They also grab Nozzles about 3 times as fast due to the more effective usage of resources.
3. A good marine vs a good skulk will win before the skulks have attained carapace.
If the above statements does not apply to the servers you play on they are noob servers. That's a fact <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skulks W/Carapace 3 > Marines
Marines W/Weap Armor 3 > Skulks W/Carapace 3
Fades > Marines W/Weap Armor 3
Marines W/HA HMG > Fades
Onos > Marines W/HA HMG
In my opinion, anyway.
If you are playing tourney mode, your team is probably going to be decent or good. If the marines run around without formations, sure FF can be a problem, but with decent players, it just is not. Skulks get stomped in corridors, and in open rooms, the marines have the space to spread out. Dispersed marines make FF not a problem at all.
Edit: sp
Honestly, I'd love to know where these mythical games are when the marines have an advantage against skulks, in the opening of the game. It's not just the l33t m3l33z0r d00ds (like me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) who eat marines for breakfast, most servers I join EVERYONE gets easy kills off the marines early game.
So what is it? The marines in some part of the world are better shots? The kharaa community in said part of the world can't dodge? I'd really like to know how this one works <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ok sos couldnt be arsed to read the thread cause my eyes hurt but:
If skulks were stronger than marines at the start a rush would be infallable, the same applies in reverse, the skulks ambusing finesse and regenerative abilities should theoretically prevent any form of frontiersman rush from working either. On most uk servers if any rush is likely to win it tends to be a phase rush, hmg rush ((WTF)) or another of the millions of generic possible rushes. Im not saying that marines are stronger im just applying logic.
However, the beauty of this game is teamwork is almost mandatory. 3 skulks rushing 1 marine usually means dead marine.
I'm going go on a limb and say that there are no real problems with balance short of the human factor. Whenever you compare X number hive aliens to X upgraded marines, you will never be equal because the game will go the the crew with best teamwork and skill employing it.
The Law Of The Skulk:
Be patient while the gorge does his work, defend the main hive, keep an eye on the empty hive rooms, and harass the marines and chomp anything they leave undefended.
You are much better off parasiting the marines and then watching where they go. Chances are that the marine will kill himself anyway when he finds out he's tagged. Just wait them out (shouldn't be more than 30 - 40 seconds and when they try and rush a hive, be ready for them with a few skulks. This stops not only the needless deaths of the skulks at the beginning, but also helps protect against an incoming hive rush.
Oh.. another point. MARINES WILL TAKE 1 HIVE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Any marine team with some sort of skill will be able to grab a hive early on. Let them. Try and take them out in transition and harass them, but be more aware of your gorges position and the second hive. The team with the second hive wins. With 5 - 6 ambushing (standing still so motion tracking doesn't give you away) skulks, the marines will rarely be able to take the second hive. This gives the advantage back to the aliens because they are MUCH more effective when not rushing the marines.
take one gorge (only one)...
have everyone else on the team keep the marine base under constant attack, never giving them a chance to do more then set up defenses and get holed up in base. meanwhile the SINGLE gorge gets every resource nozzle he can... dont build anything else but res nozzels. Everyone else on the team needs to stay as full as possible on res. by the time you have 3 up you'll be getting so much that you can have a hive up a minute later. no problem if a res gets taken down cause you can build more easy. minutes after the second hive is up, you can put down the third if its open. offensive towers are too costly to even worry about till the 2nd hive. all the skulks do till then is act as a diversion. Every time that I've been able to pull a team together to do this we've buried the marine team and the game was over in half the time of a normal one... it's worked the 5 or 6 times I've tried it. Dont know how it would be against clan games cause havent had that experience. but its a very strong resources tactic on a public server...
Now, why is it that clans consider the marines to have the stronger early game? Well, that depends on which version you are playing. Looking at 1.03 first, the biggest problem that skulks have when dealing with the marine rush is scanner sweep combined with multiple infantry portals. Because of the low cost of infantry portals, multiples can be built giving the marines a huge advantage in respawn time. Going further, skulks lose their only advantage (ambush + melee weapons) due to commanders being able to continuously scanner sweep ahead of his or her rushing marines. The end result is that the alien positions are always known by the incoming marines and it's pretty simple for them to deal with the alien ambushes.
1.04, on the other hand, removes the ability of constant scanner sweeping because scanner sweep and infantry portals have increased in cost. This might sound like the marine advantage is no longer valid, but, unfortunately, that is not the case. The bottom line is: by tapping just a couple of resource nodes, the marines can tech much faster than the aliens. Once the marines have tapped a couple of nodes, they just have to sit back and guard them and watch the resource points roll in. The aliens can't sit back and watch it happen, because they'll be facing heavy machinegun toting jetpacking marines before the second hive is completed. What this means is the aliens must go on the offensive and begin attacking the marines; once again removing their primary advantage of ambushing. Since the marines suddenly get to pick the areas where the battles will occur (they'll post up down a long hallway guarding the resource node for example), the aliens are often hard pressed to even get near them.
As I said, this is looking at it from a clan perspective. On your average public server, the marines are far too unorganized for such ventures and would rather hang out in base with turrets. In which case, the aliens will almost always win since the marines cannot tech (as they aren't tapping resource nodes and they are spending their money on things like turrets) as quickly as the aliens.