<!--QuoteBegin--Ganja+Jan 26 2003, 11:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ganja @ Jan 26 2003, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks have the second best air control in my opinion, unless you're flying forward at full speed anyways<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can you say that? You can't turn in midair no matter what the speed. A gorge jumping can make a better arc than a lerk.
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Jan 26 2003, 12:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Jan 26 2003, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Ganja+Jan 26 2003, 11:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ganja @ Jan 26 2003, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lerks have the second best air control in my opinion, unless you're flying forward at full speed anyways<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How can you say that? You can't turn in midair no matter what the speed. A gorge jumping can make a better arc than a lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> didnt Flayra say there would be major changes for the lerk in 1.1?...yes he did. so wait...
I think the lerk flying is fine too. You just need to pratice in big open spaces. I made a rudimentry map for lerks to pratice in, but its not very good to learn cornering in, its better at teaching you how to keep your level from the ground constant and your speed up.
Now only in v1.1 we can get the lerks to do a spin in the air.... that would be great. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you get 50 FPS you can stay in the air with a jetpack virtually limitlessly. I get anywhere between 40 and 100 FPS, usually 70 or so, and I almost never run out of fuel. On the other hand, if you lerks can't kill a JPer with spike, what the hell is wrong with you? That's your bad aim or bad ping causing it. Learn to lead a target or aim better, and you'll take that JPer down in under 30 seconds. The only person I've ever had trouble taking out with "bitegun" is sYn | Uubu because he was flying around in good spots and using cover to his advantage. I did, though, get him in less than 90 seconds. <3 Uubu <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also give the programmers some credit. If you want this game to be changed so badly don't take it to a forum, learn some code and demonstrate how you could effectively change and balance these issues out. This is like complaining about a U.S. President when you didn't vote at all.
Oh yeah and FPS clock is the thing that allows you to run up inclined walls faster. If you have 100 FPS you can haul **** up an 80º incline, but if you have 50-60 FPS you can't even crawl up it whatsoever.
I know you can do this in CS and HL as well, it's just the code in general. NS has this, just as any other mod. The only way to change the jetpack would be to take it off this system based on the players' FPS.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just a side-note. Voogru deserves a little respect. He is very proficient at tweaking (or "hacking" if you want to use the correct term, but I prefer tweaking since his hacks are not malicious) the NS code. That takes a little more than 2 brain cells to do. He is not the final word on the game, however; the people who are developers get the final word.
I'm guessing not many of you people had Apple ][ computers. One of the favorite things to do for many programmers of our day&age learned how to program by hacking/tweaking games they played on the apple ][. Messing around with someone else's code is a good way to learn how to code better yourself, or to help you get the game that <b>you</b> want.
I'll agree that sometimes "yay voogru" and "die voogru" posts force everyone to take sides, but he is not like Microsoft. There are more issues out here than just "he's an evil evil man," He's just a guy who likes NS so much he learned how to tweak it. If you don't like him, fine, it's not like we elected him president of anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and pls make that voogru stop messing with the game. The best thing for the community is a standardized game. We can't have people randomly changing stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"The best thing for the community is a standardized game." Ok, take out every cvar related to NS and disable control of everything. Also disable metamod and addon DLL's (since you dont need metamod to make server-side mods in some cases) Make it so the only thing they can change is "hostname" and "rcon_password" btw, disabling server-side mods is not possible AFAIK.
I like to try ideas people have, Even if Flayra doesnt add it to the real game.
If i see a _GOOD_ idea in the Suggestions forums, and its possible for me to add it, guess what im gonna do.
Also, This helps me to learn to code somewhat, when i first started modded things (in TFC) i didnt know jack. I dont play NS as much as I would like to, I find it just as much fun to code small additions, becuase the players can always have something new to play with.
Anyways, there is nothing i can do about the jetpack, only thing i can do is tell if a marine has one server-side and make his life miserable. but thats not right. I have already tried to modify fuel in the jetpack, and its not possible for me (or i dont know how too yet)
<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>Lerk vs Jetpack</span>
IMO, the jetpack's physics should be how the lerk flies, and the lerk's physics needs to be for jetpack
IE: Do you know ANYTHING in real life that is man-made and functions BETTER than organic material?
a bird is pretty complex... you can fly, turn, stop, hover, whatever a jetpack, however... is less complex than a bird.. it only really provides thrust.. and only really in ONE direction at a time (Forward, back, left, right) .. except for up, with one of the other 4 directions, because obviously.. you're going to go up.
so basically, a lerk should be able to fly BETTER than a human with a man-made mechanical on his back.. humans were not MENT to fly-- this is why it would be harder to control...
although not totally hard, as it is a game, and gameplay > realism
Bling. Bling.
PS: i know a majority of you jetpackers will HATE this, because you love manuevering as you do.. but whatever, it's worth a try to make LERK a better character.
Jetpacks can be quite powerful, yes, however I'm not worried about em'.
They are at the very top of the marine's tech tree. According to the manual, the prototype lab first requires turret factory, arms lab. This isn't something you can just instantly assemble in base, it means the marines have to have been able to establish a point of presence over a resource nozzle or two first.
<!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Jan 26 2003, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Jan 26 2003, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a jetpack, however... is less complex than a bird.. it only really provides thrust.. and only really in ONE direction at a time (Forward, back, left, right) .. except for up, with one of the other 4 directions, because obviously.. you're going to go up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ummm, if I strap a jetpack to my back, I don't think I'm going to go up if I press forward. You'll need a up thrust AND a forward thrust to do that.
I still think the flying things are fine. Jetpacks are MENT to make a marine go up faster then a lerk, but they go slower then a lerk (at the start of their take-off). Lerks are ment to go up slower then a marine, but faster then a marine (at the start of its take-off).
<!--QuoteBegin--geldonyetich+Jan 26 2003, 02:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (geldonyetich @ Jan 26 2003, 02:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Jetpacks can be quite powerful, yes, however I'm not worried about em'.
They are at the very top of the marine's tech tree. According to the manual, the prototype lab first requires turret factory, arms lab. This isn't something you can just instantly assemble in base, it means the marines have to have been able to establish a point of presence over a resource nozzle or two first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Umm.. the manual is *COMPLETELY* out-dated. It hasn't been updated in a long time.
Do *NOT* rely on it.
it goes, I believe IP -> Armory -> Arms Lab -> Proto lab I don't know if an Obs is required for arms lab, but i don't think it is. You also have 100 resources to spend. then you make IP, armory. wait a bit (or grab another node) then just wait for arms lab -> proto. then research when you get more resources (OR JUST RECYCLE the arms lab to get resources to upgrade proto lab)... i see it pulled even on public servers...
Either way, jetpacks can SERIOUSLY be introduced into the game within about 5-6 minutes. Jetpack / HMGs takes maybe 7-8 minutes.. a little more if you are loading everybody on a team up.
That's VERY hard to counter, and aliens hardly even have a second hive at that stage...
<!--QuoteBegin--Unknown+Jan 26 2003, 02:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Unknown @ Jan 26 2003, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Jan 26 2003, 07:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Jan 26 2003, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->a jetpack, however... is less complex than a bird.. it only really provides thrust.. and only really in ONE direction at a time (Forward, back, left, right) .. except for up, with one of the other 4 directions, because obviously.. you're going to go up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ummm, if I strap a jetpack to my back, I don't think I'm going to go up if I press forward. You'll need a up thrust AND a forward thrust to do that.
I still think the flying things are fine. Jetpacks are MENT to make a marine go up faster then a lerk, but they go slower then a lerk (at the start of their take-off). Lerks are ment to go up slower then a marine, but faster then a marine (at the start of its take-off).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you seen how everybody's concept of a jetpack looks like?
the truths point DOWN from your back. That provides the up, and if you aim it a bit differently, you can fly forward/back... but you will almost always go up, or have a little upward thrust at all times
Also, in the game it even WORKS that way. your jetpack only works when you JUMP. and even then you're still getting upward thrust because you can still stay LEVEL at the same height. if you let go of jump, and move forward.. that's air control taking over
by no means is the jetpack model in this game any different... unless of course you wish to use the "But this is the future--jetpacks work differently than you imagine! the model was made before the jetpacks were introduced, they just need a new model" crap on me..--- that's BS and you know it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Jan 26 2003, 11:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Jan 26 2003, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Umm.. the manual is *COMPLETELY* out-dated. It hasn't been updated in a long time.
Do *NOT* rely on it.
it goes, I believe IP -> Armory -> Arms Lab -> Proto lab I don't know if an Obs is required for arms lab, but i don't think it is. You also have 100 resources to spend.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your right about the manual, but I knew that.
However, I went ahead and ran a quick test game of 1.04 to talley the costs.
Requirements are indeed IP -> Armoury -> Arms Lab -> Proto Lab You left out -> Jetpack Upgrade (which costs 25 more).
So, that's 22 + 25 + 45 + 45 + 25 then upgrade time. Overall cost is 162.
Personally, I pity the marines that have a commander that does this. At the very least, I'd have built a second infantry portal (cost goes up to 184) but ideally what he wants to do is secure a second (or even a third) resource nozzle.
You can speed things up a bit by recycling a few structures (armoury and arms lab) but I would argue the cost outweighs the benefit.
I actually played a game against a jetpack rushing marine team on eclipse today (1.04). They absolutely had their collective arses handed them. Wasn't even funny. Maybe some maps are better for that tactic than others, but eclipse isn't one of them.
Works ok on eclipse although will be tough if they started in comp core.
Best if they start in maint cos its easy to JP down and the map favoures you. Totals res spent shown in brackets.
Build: IP, Armoury: 22 + 25 = 47 (47) move 3 marines to station access grab the node move them on to triad grab the node. 22 + 22 = 44 ( 91) end of starting res.
Obs -> MT: 25 + 45 = 70 (161)
Move to eclipse grab the node slap down a phase use MT to predict the aliens attack on your nodes and eclipse and have marines in location befor the aliens do any serious damage
Arms lab -> armour upgrade 1: 45 + 20 = 65 (226) Prot lab -> JP upgrade: 45 + 25 = 70 (296) (equip JP's from spare cash to give added mobility in defending res nodes) Advanced Armoury -> 35 (331) equip 3 -4 mairnes with JP+HMG set a way point to the enemy hive. 9 * 4 = 36 (367) 25 * 4 = 100 (467)
Contrast this with the phase two hive lock down costs in 1.03:
So in the 1.04 JP rush you have to hold 3 res nodes away from base with 1 phase, and MT (and later with armour 1 and JPs) . Set against the 1.03 2 hive phase lockdown where you had to hold 2 locations with turrets and eventually siege.
The big difference is that in the JP rush you can pick any of several res nodes, the aliens have to hunt and kill your res nodes where's in 1.03 Hive lock downs everybody KNEW just where you were going to be.
Client side physics is horrible for cheating. Right now, I wouldn't call it a cheat, as those with good machines automatically get it without having to cause the bug intentionally. But as long as this is done client-side, there will be problems when a cheater decides to hack the game and get a completely free movement everywhere, no matter what the FPS. Of course, doing all physics client-side would be bad due to lag, but I think the server at least needs a way to decide when a player is out of fuel and make him drop, even if the client is hacked. Similar issues have been demonstrated before with firing rate, build speeds, all appear to go up at high framerates. This isn't good, but it appears to be a flaw in HL. AFAIK, HL mods are coded in C++, so basically compiled to machine language, right? Perhaps you could bypass the HL engine and get the real machine clock timings?
QueryPerformanceFrequency and QueryPerformanceCounter i believe are the correct functions that must be used to accurately measure time in C++ programs.
What are all these people talking realistic physics for jetpack on about? If the jetpack had realistic physics, slamming your head into the ceiling at such speeds would result in one headless marine.
If that is the case, then machines that can perform queries more quickly would be more likely to have a higher clock rate than lesser machines...and we still have this "flaw". [edit]This refers to Vipr's post 2 up and was meant to be consecutively after <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--Onuma+Jan 26 2003, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Onuma @ Jan 26 2003, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If that is the case, then machines that can perform queries more quickly would be more likely to have a higher clock rate than lesser machines...and we still have this "flaw". [edit]This refers to Vipr's post 2 up and was meant to be consecutively after <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> huh?!? i don't think so.
I can't remember what those two are used for, but yeah, i think that would work. Since the only times i've seen them used is to calculate how long something takes, it should be accurate..
I would like to add (as someone who only gets 20-40 fps), before changes are made, could we be considered as well? For instance if you halve the regen rate for jetpack fuel, that not only "balances" out the 100 fps people, but it would cripple the lower FPS people also.
Now after reading this post, I realize why some people seem to instantly kill others with the welder, while others go around chasing the guy for a long time with no luck. Which is why the new welder damage now concerns me.
<!--QuoteBegin--wlibaers+Jan 27 2003, 09:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wlibaers @ Jan 27 2003, 09:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--MasterEvilAce+Jan 26 2003, 08:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MasterEvilAce @ Jan 26 2003, 08:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't remember what those two are used for, but yeah, i think that would work. Since the only times i've seen them used is to calculate how long something takes, it should be accurate..
or maybe GetTickCount, would be possible, too?.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or something like timeGetTime. This has the advantage of having known precision (down to 1ms usually). QueryPerformanceCounter is more accurate, but may not be available on all machines (for example, laptops with variable clock speed may have issues with it, and there are some cases where abnormal jumps in the time occur <a href='http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;274323' target='_blank'>http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?...kb;en-us;274323</a> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yah i noticed something strange in my program like skipping, it was driving me crazy for ages. **** stupid retards, it was all their fault. when are they gonna fix that?
The simple fix would be ot make it so that once you start a 'jetpack burn' then you can't stop it.
Sorta like a rocket. While you can start the burn, you can't stop the burn. You can CONTROL how you use the burn, but if you don't control it the energy is simply wasted.
Example.
NSPlayer has his jetpack and head to Viaduct hive. The moment he presses his JUMP key the jetpack activates and the fuel is drained at the normal rate. However, if he released the jump key (in order to control his movements) the jetpack fuel CONTINUES to be depleted at the normal rate. Should he press the jump key again, he can continue to use the jetpack's lift as long as fuel remains.
This continues until the jetpack fuel is depleted, which deactivates the jetpack. At that point the jetpack remains inoperative and cannot be activated until the fuel has recharged to 100%. The cycle then repeats.
This would in no way interfere with the physics of jetpacks, but it would make the jetpacks 'vulnerable' for the brief period of time when they need to refuel.
Right, so when it starts there no way to stop? Which means when the fuel runs out you go splatting into the floor? And how do you go down? As far as I can see, pressing jump makes the jetpack blast you <i>upwards</i>. You manuver by pressing the direction key at the peak pf the blast. If you locked it on, there would be no way to get through door frames or to land.
Addition: After re-reading your post, I believe your idea may be different from what I first thought. You basically want to give jetpacks a timelimit as to when they can be used? IE: You press jump and then the fuel begins ticking down until it runs out? I dont know for sure, but last time I checked, for fuel to be used, energy had to be given out. If theres no blast coming from the JP, whats using the fuel?
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Jan 27 2003, 09:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Jan 27 2003, 09:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> NSPlayer has his jetpack and head to Viaduct hive. The moment he presses his JUMP key the jetpack activates and the fuel is drained at the normal rate. However, if he released the jump key (in order to control his movements) the jetpack fuel CONTINUES to be depleted at the normal rate. Should he press the jump key again, he can continue to use the jetpack's lift as long as fuel remains.
This continues until the jetpack fuel is depleted, which deactivates the jetpack. At that point the jetpack remains inoperative and cannot be activated until the fuel has recharged to 100%. The cycle then repeats. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So effectively, you want to turn the jetpack from an extremely versatile mobility tool, that rewards skillful control with swift, prolonged travel and a variety of combat options. Into a very limited, non-combat orientated, pogo stick style method of getting into a vent that happens to require top level marine tech? That about accurate?
Savant i haven't seen a post from you yet that doesn't try to preach in 1 way or another how unfair the game is on the aliens, and i have to say i dissagree. While the balance may not be perfect, i see no good reason for your continued suggestions of balance after balance change that all significantly swing the game in 1 direction. We do not need every alien chamber having a heal ability, leap killing on contact, blink dealing damage, movement chambers slowing marines that come near them, nerfed jetpacks etc. etc. Its almost as if you've picked a side in the gameplay debate and will forever be rooting for your 'team'. I don't care how you look at it the game is not that 1 sided.
Jetpacking is one of the few individual acts left in NS that i truely enjoy doing. It tests tight control, and even without an alien in sight is still a joy to use. Just moving through tight coridoors and sharp turns as fast as possible trying to avoid clipping on anything is entertaining. In the big crusade to remove anything that's 'unrealistic' or requires any degree of skill to use, how about you try <b>not</b> to newbify the jetpack, and leave those of us who actually know what aircontrol is something satisfying to play with. Infact heres an idea - why don't you SAY you've 'fixed' the jetpack, and then not change it at all? Its not like any of the people complaining would notice.
Savant of course needs to be appeased by the offering of an alien advantage, so how about this: Leave the jetpack alone (a fix to let people with lower framerates join the fun is all thats needed) and give the lerk something that resembles actual air control. Then maybe i can have as much fun flying the lerk as i have flying the jetpacker.
For the additional education of the thread, you do not need 100fps to keep yourself in the air. The sweet spot of perpetual flying is roughly around the 65-70fps mark, meaning you can fly forever on the default fps cap. 100fps gives you more thrust per fuel, but personally i keep my cap at 72 when jetpacking, because a very high or variable framerate makes the thrust a little over sensitive. The effect framerate has on various aspects of the game is undesirable, and should be fixed in any way possible, but when you decide on the consistant state that jetpacks on all systems will operate in, why do you assume it has to be a 20fps lead weight setting? Why not let everyone float for a decent length of time.
<!--QuoteBegin--ViPr+Jan 26 2003, 04:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ViPr @ Jan 26 2003, 04:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> QueryPerformanceFrequency and QueryPerformanceCounter i believe are the correct functions that must be used to accurately measure time in C++ programs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If I remember correctly, those were used in Quake 3. Naturally, it was the first thing that OGC for q3 abused.
[quote] why do you assume it has to be a 20fps lead weight setting? Why not let everyone float for a decent length of time. [quote]
Keying it to 70fps means you can emtpy at least 3 clips of HMG into a hive without having to land. Which unbalances it to the extent that skulks (and even some lerks) cannot counter a JP HMG rush.
It's getting harder for fades to get them, too. With the reduced splash damage of acid rocket, they aren't so easy to hit anymore unless they stick in one spot on the ceiling.
Comments
How can you say that? You can't turn in midair no matter what the speed. A gorge jumping can make a better arc than a lerk.
How can you say that? You can't turn in midair no matter what the speed. A gorge jumping can make a better arc than a lerk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
didnt Flayra say there would be major changes for the lerk in 1.1?...yes he did.
so wait...
i personally think flying with the lerk is fine.
Now only in v1.1 we can get the lerks to do a spin in the air.... that would be great. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
On the other hand, if you lerks can't kill a JPer with spike, what the hell is wrong with you? That's your bad aim or bad ping causing it. Learn to lead a target or aim better, and you'll take that JPer down in under 30 seconds. The only person I've ever had trouble taking out with "bitegun" is sYn | Uubu because he was flying around in good spots and using cover to his advantage. I did, though, get him in less than 90 seconds. <3 Uubu <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also give the programmers some credit. If you want this game to be changed so badly don't take it to a forum, learn some code and demonstrate how you could effectively change and balance these issues out. This is like complaining about a U.S. President when you didn't vote at all.
I know you can do this in CS and HL as well, it's just the code in general. NS has this, just as any other mod. The only way to change the jetpack would be to take it off this system based on the players' FPS.
Just a side-note. Voogru deserves a little respect. He is very proficient at tweaking (or "hacking" if you want to use the correct term, but I prefer tweaking since his hacks are not malicious) the NS code. That takes a little more than 2 brain cells to do. He is not the final word on the game, however; the people who are developers get the final word.
I'm guessing not many of you people had Apple ][ computers. One of the favorite things to do for many programmers of our day&age learned how to program by hacking/tweaking games they played on the apple ][. Messing around with someone else's code is a good way to learn how to code better yourself, or to help you get the game that <b>you</b> want.
I'll agree that sometimes "yay voogru" and "die voogru" posts force everyone to take sides, but he is not like Microsoft. There are more issues out here than just "he's an evil evil man," He's just a guy who likes NS so much he learned how to tweak it. If you don't like him, fine, it's not like we elected him president of anything.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
and pls make that voogru stop messing with the game.
The best thing for the community is a standardized game.
We can't have people randomly changing stuff.
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"The best thing for the community is a standardized game."
Ok, take out every cvar related to NS and disable control of everything. Also disable metamod and addon DLL's (since you dont need metamod to make server-side mods in some cases) Make it so the only thing they can change is "hostname" and "rcon_password" btw, disabling server-side mods is not possible AFAIK.
I like to try ideas people have, Even if Flayra doesnt add it to the real game.
If i see a _GOOD_ idea in the Suggestions forums, and its possible for me to add it, guess what im gonna do.
Also, This helps me to learn to code somewhat, when i first started modded things (in TFC) i didnt know jack. I dont play NS as much as I would like to, I find it just as much fun to code small additions, becuase the players can always have something new to play with.
Anyways, there is nothing i can do about the jetpack, only thing i can do is tell if a marine has one server-side and make his life miserable. but thats not right. I have already tried to modify fuel in the jetpack, and its not possible for me (or i dont know how too yet)
- voogru.
IMO, the jetpack's physics should be how the lerk flies, and the lerk's physics needs to be for jetpack
IE: Do you know ANYTHING in real life that is man-made and functions BETTER than organic material?
a bird is pretty complex... you can fly, turn, stop, hover, whatever
a jetpack, however... is less complex than a bird.. it only really provides thrust.. and only really in ONE direction at a time (Forward, back, left, right) .. except for up, with one of the other 4 directions, because obviously.. you're going to go up.
so basically, a lerk should be able to fly BETTER than a human with a man-made mechanical on his back.. humans were not MENT to fly-- this is why it would be harder to control...
although not totally hard, as it is a game, and gameplay > realism
Bling. Bling.
PS: i know a majority of you jetpackers will HATE this, because you love manuevering as you do.. but whatever, it's worth a try to make LERK a better character.
They are at the very top of the marine's tech tree. According to the manual, the prototype lab first requires turret factory, arms lab. This isn't something you can just instantly assemble in base, it means the marines have to have been able to establish a point of presence over a resource nozzle or two first.
Ummm, if I strap a jetpack to my back, I don't think I'm going to go up if I press forward. You'll need a up thrust AND a forward thrust to do that.
I still think the flying things are fine. Jetpacks are MENT to make a marine go up faster then a lerk, but they go slower then a lerk (at the start of their take-off). Lerks are ment to go up slower then a marine, but faster then a marine (at the start of its take-off).
They are at the very top of the marine's tech tree. According to the manual, the prototype lab first requires turret factory, arms lab. This isn't something you can just instantly assemble in base, it means the marines have to have been able to establish a point of presence over a resource nozzle or two first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm.. the manual is *COMPLETELY* out-dated.
It hasn't been updated in a long time.
Do *NOT* rely on it.
it goes, I believe
IP -> Armory -> Arms Lab -> Proto lab
I don't know if an Obs is required for arms lab, but i don't think it is. You also have 100 resources to spend.
then you make IP, armory. wait a bit (or grab another node) then just wait for arms lab -> proto. then research when you get more resources (OR JUST RECYCLE the arms lab to get resources to upgrade proto lab)... i see it pulled even on public servers...
Either way, jetpacks can SERIOUSLY be introduced into the game within about 5-6 minutes.
Jetpack / HMGs takes maybe 7-8 minutes.. a little more if you are loading everybody on a team up.
That's VERY hard to counter, and aliens hardly even have a second hive at that stage...
Ummm, if I strap a jetpack to my back, I don't think I'm going to go up if I press forward. You'll need a up thrust AND a forward thrust to do that.
I still think the flying things are fine. Jetpacks are MENT to make a marine go up faster then a lerk, but they go slower then a lerk (at the start of their take-off). Lerks are ment to go up slower then a marine, but faster then a marine (at the start of its take-off).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you seen how everybody's concept of a jetpack looks like?
the truths point DOWN from your back. That provides the up, and if you aim it a bit differently, you can fly forward/back... but you will almost always go up, or have a little upward thrust at all times
Also, in the game it even WORKS that way. your jetpack only works when you JUMP. and even then you're still getting upward thrust because you can still stay LEVEL at the same height. if you let go of jump, and move forward.. that's air control taking over
by no means is the jetpack model in this game any different... unless of course you wish to use the "But this is the future--jetpacks work differently than you imagine! the model was made before the jetpacks were introduced, they just need a new model" crap on me..--- that's BS and you know it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It hasn't been updated in a long time.
Do *NOT* rely on it.
it goes, I believe
IP -> Armory -> Arms Lab -> Proto lab
I don't know if an Obs is required for arms lab, but i don't think it is. You also have 100 resources to spend.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your right about the manual, but I knew that.
However, I went ahead and ran a quick test game of 1.04 to talley the costs.
Requirements are indeed IP -> Armoury -> Arms Lab -> Proto Lab
You left out -> Jetpack Upgrade (which costs 25 more).
So, that's 22 + 25 + 45 + 45 + 25 then upgrade time.
Overall cost is 162.
Personally, I pity the marines that have a commander that does this. At the very least, I'd have built a second infantry portal (cost goes up to 184) but ideally what he wants to do is secure a second (or even a third) resource nozzle.
You can speed things up a bit by recycling a few structures (armoury and arms lab) but I would argue the cost outweighs the benefit.
I actually played a game against a jetpack rushing marine team on eclipse today (1.04). They absolutely had their collective arses handed them. Wasn't even funny. Maybe some maps are better for that tactic than others, but eclipse isn't one of them.
Best if they start in maint cos its easy to JP down and the map favoures you. Totals res spent shown in brackets.
Build:
IP, Armoury: 22 + 25 = 47 (47)
move 3 marines to station access grab the node move them on to triad grab the node.
22 + 22 = 44 ( 91) end of starting res.
Obs -> MT: 25 + 45 = 70 (161)
Move to eclipse grab the node slap down a phase use MT to predict the aliens attack on your nodes and eclipse and have marines in location befor the aliens do any serious damage
Arms lab -> armour upgrade 1: 45 + 20 = 65 (226)
Prot lab -> JP upgrade: 45 + 25 = 70 (296)
(equip JP's from spare cash to give added mobility in defending res nodes)
Advanced Armoury -> 35 (331)
equip 3 -4 mairnes with JP+HMG set a way point to the enemy hive.
9 * 4 = 36 (367)
25 * 4 = 100 (467)
Contrast this with the phase two hive lock down costs in 1.03:
IP, IP, Armoury, Obs, Phase:
15 + 15 + 25 + 25 + 20: 100
Hive 1: Phase, res node.
Hive 2: phase, res node.
2 * (20 + 22) = 84 (184)
Hive 1: Tfac, 4 SG, siege upgrade, 1 Siege.
Hive 2: Tfac, 4 SG, siege upgrade, 1 Siege.
2* (25 + 4*19 + 25 + 25) = 2 * (75 + 76) = 2*151 = 302 (486)
So in the 1.04 JP rush you have to hold 3 res nodes away from base with 1 phase, and MT (and later with armour 1 and JPs)
.
Set against the 1.03 2 hive phase lockdown where you had to hold 2 locations with turrets and eventually siege.
The big difference is that in the JP rush you can pick any of several res nodes, the aliens have to hunt and kill your res nodes where's in 1.03 Hive lock downs everybody KNEW just where you were going to be.
BlueGhost
Similar issues have been demonstrated before with firing rate, build speeds, all appear to go up at high framerates. This isn't good, but it appears to be a flaw in HL. AFAIK, HL mods are coded in C++, so basically compiled to machine language, right? Perhaps you could bypass the HL engine and get the real machine clock timings?
Eater.
[edit]This refers to Vipr's post 2 up and was meant to be consecutively after <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]
[edit]This refers to Vipr's post 2 up and was meant to be consecutively after <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->[/edit]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
huh?!? i don't think so.
or maybe GetTickCount, would be possible, too?..
Now after reading this post, I realize why some people seem to instantly kill others with the welder, while others go around chasing the guy for a long time with no luck. Which is why the new welder damage now concerns me.
With that said.. err.. why not just make jetpacks only recharge while on the ground?
I liked the idea where you could only refuel at an armory. Give it about 90 seconds of flight time.. maybe less.. maybe more?
or maybe GetTickCount, would be possible, too?.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or something like timeGetTime. This has the advantage of having known precision (down to 1ms usually). QueryPerformanceCounter is more accurate, but may not be available on all machines (for example, laptops with variable clock speed may have issues with it, and there are some cases where abnormal jumps in the time occur <a href='http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;274323' target='_blank'>http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?...kb;en-us;274323</a> ) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yah i noticed something strange in my program like skipping, it was driving me crazy for ages. **** stupid retards, it was all their fault. when are they gonna fix that?
Sorta like a rocket. While you can start the burn, you can't stop the burn. You can CONTROL how you use the burn, but if you don't control it the energy is simply wasted.
Example.
NSPlayer has his jetpack and head to Viaduct hive. The moment he presses his JUMP key the jetpack activates and the fuel is drained at the normal rate. However, if he released the jump key (in order to control his movements) the jetpack fuel CONTINUES to be depleted at the normal rate. Should he press the jump key again, he can continue to use the jetpack's lift as long as fuel remains.
This continues until the jetpack fuel is depleted, which deactivates the jetpack. At that point the jetpack remains inoperative and cannot be activated until the fuel has recharged to 100%. The cycle then repeats.
This would in no way interfere with the physics of jetpacks, but it would make the jetpacks 'vulnerable' for the brief period of time when they need to refuel.
Regards,
Savant
Addition: After re-reading your post, I believe your idea may be different from what I first thought. You basically want to give jetpacks a timelimit as to when they can be used? IE: You press jump and then the fuel begins ticking down until it runs out? I dont know for sure, but last time I checked, for fuel to be used, energy had to be given out. If theres no blast coming from the JP, whats using the fuel?
This continues until the jetpack fuel is depleted, which deactivates the jetpack. At that point the jetpack remains inoperative and cannot be activated until the fuel has recharged to 100%. The cycle then repeats. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So effectively, you want to turn the jetpack from an extremely versatile mobility tool, that rewards skillful control with swift, prolonged travel and a variety of combat options. Into a very limited, non-combat orientated, pogo stick style method of getting into a vent that happens to require top level marine tech? That about accurate?
Savant i haven't seen a post from you yet that doesn't try to preach in 1 way or another how unfair the game is on the aliens, and i have to say i dissagree. While the balance may not be perfect, i see no good reason for your continued suggestions of balance after balance change that all significantly swing the game in 1 direction. We do not need every alien chamber having a heal ability, leap killing on contact, blink dealing damage, movement chambers slowing marines that come near them, nerfed jetpacks etc. etc. Its almost as if you've picked a side in the gameplay debate and will forever be rooting for your 'team'. I don't care how you look at it the game is not that 1 sided.
Jetpacking is one of the few individual acts left in NS that i truely enjoy doing. It tests tight control, and even without an alien in sight is still a joy to use. Just moving through tight coridoors and sharp turns as fast as possible trying to avoid clipping on anything is entertaining. In the big crusade to remove anything that's 'unrealistic' or requires any degree of skill to use, how about you try <b>not</b> to newbify the jetpack, and leave those of us who actually know what aircontrol is something satisfying to play with. Infact heres an idea - why don't you SAY you've 'fixed' the jetpack, and then not change it at all? Its not like any of the people complaining would notice.
Savant of course needs to be appeased by the offering of an alien advantage, so how about this: Leave the jetpack alone (a fix to let people with lower framerates join the fun is all thats needed) and give the lerk something that resembles actual air control. Then maybe i can have as much fun flying the lerk as i have flying the jetpacker.
For the additional education of the thread, you do not need 100fps to keep yourself in the air. The sweet spot of perpetual flying is roughly around the 65-70fps mark, meaning you can fly forever on the default fps cap. 100fps gives you more thrust per fuel, but personally i keep my cap at 72 when jetpacking, because a very high or variable framerate makes the thrust a little over sensitive. The effect framerate has on various aspects of the game is undesirable, and should be fixed in any way possible, but when you decide on the consistant state that jetpacks on all systems will operate in, why do you assume it has to be a 20fps lead weight setting? Why not let everyone float for a decent length of time.
If I remember correctly, those were used in Quake 3. Naturally, it was the first thing that OGC for q3 abused.
why do you assume it has to be a 20fps lead weight setting? Why not let everyone float for a decent length of time.
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Keying it to 70fps means you can emtpy at least 3 clips of HMG into a hive without having to land. Which unbalances it to the extent that skulks (and even some lerks) cannot counter a JP HMG rush.