Making Chambers Viable...
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">What would it take YOU to switch?</div> OK, we've seen plenty of posts suggesting changes to the Sensory/Movements chambers. While this is all well and good, even with the recent change to the sensory chamber, people are still reticent to use them first.
So the question is, what changes to the chambers would make it so YOU would <b>actually</b> consider using them?
For me, I'd need to see the following before I would consider not using defence first:
Sensory:
-Should cloak itself 100% and be 'unseen' by marines unless they walk right into it. This would allow for 'tactical placement' of sensory chambers in areas to monitor Marine movements. The sensory chamber would light up any nearby Marines on 'hive sight'. (none of that 'the enemy approaches' stuff)
-Should provide a counter to motion tracking in the chamber's area of influence. So, a sensory chamber in a key 'ambush location' would allow aliens to remain unseen and thus this would make up for the lack of carapace. (Which means you die FAST - so getting the jump on marines would be critical to make up for this)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Sensory first would be that it could cloak OCs and resource nodes. (Cloak area would depend on the number of chambers nearby)
Movement:
-Causes nearby enemies to slow to 'walk' speed in the MC's area of influence. This would allow a compensation for the lack of carapace, giving skulks a chance to take them out easier.
-Makes nearby OCs to fire at a faster rate, as defined by the number of chambers nearby. (1 MC=33% increase 2 MC=66% increase, 3 MC=100% increase or double speed)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Movement first would be if the MC caused an alien RT to output resources at an increased rate. (Similar to what was noted above)
I'd like to hear your suggestions. Remember please, I'd like to hear suggestions on what would make YOU use them first. That means, if your ideas were adopted tomorrow, you would be 99% willing to use a chamber OTHER than a DC in the beginning of the game.
For me, I think the big thing holding me back from using other chambers is the lack of a 'heal' ability in Move/Sensory chambers. So to compensate for that, these other chambers need to be REALLY good in other areas. If the above changes were made I would have a VERY difficult time choosing which chamber to use first, since they would all have advantages.
Regards,
Savant
So the question is, what changes to the chambers would make it so YOU would <b>actually</b> consider using them?
For me, I'd need to see the following before I would consider not using defence first:
Sensory:
-Should cloak itself 100% and be 'unseen' by marines unless they walk right into it. This would allow for 'tactical placement' of sensory chambers in areas to monitor Marine movements. The sensory chamber would light up any nearby Marines on 'hive sight'. (none of that 'the enemy approaches' stuff)
-Should provide a counter to motion tracking in the chamber's area of influence. So, a sensory chamber in a key 'ambush location' would allow aliens to remain unseen and thus this would make up for the lack of carapace. (Which means you die FAST - so getting the jump on marines would be critical to make up for this)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Sensory first would be that it could cloak OCs and resource nodes. (Cloak area would depend on the number of chambers nearby)
Movement:
-Causes nearby enemies to slow to 'walk' speed in the MC's area of influence. This would allow a compensation for the lack of carapace, giving skulks a chance to take them out easier.
-Makes nearby OCs to fire at a faster rate, as defined by the number of chambers nearby. (1 MC=33% increase 2 MC=66% increase, 3 MC=100% increase or double speed)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Movement first would be if the MC caused an alien RT to output resources at an increased rate. (Similar to what was noted above)
I'd like to hear your suggestions. Remember please, I'd like to hear suggestions on what would make YOU use them first. That means, if your ideas were adopted tomorrow, you would be 99% willing to use a chamber OTHER than a DC in the beginning of the game.
For me, I think the big thing holding me back from using other chambers is the lack of a 'heal' ability in Move/Sensory chambers. So to compensate for that, these other chambers need to be REALLY good in other areas. If the above changes were made I would have a VERY difficult time choosing which chamber to use first, since they would all have advantages.
Regards,
Savant
Comments
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I really like this idea.
Since it can be done server-side i might give it a try. Tho it will only cloak to the percentage (minus 10) of health they have, so if they have 100% health, 90% cloak, 90% health, 80% cloak etc.
Range will of course be limited <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So, have all chambers heal themselves slowly (makes sense, they're organic). Possibly slow/stop dc chambers healing chambers. If you stopped dcs healing chambers completely, they would become pointless first hive choice (son't really need to heal skulks) -except for the upgrades, which are also superior IMO.
But I like the ideas for the other chambers. Not sure about movement slowing marines down - i can't see how it could be used to much use. Also with sensory, I think it would be far more useful if it gave you the same info on hivesight as you get for team mates i.e. name and location. A yellow blob somewhere on the other side of the map isn't very useful.
BMTwigzta, I think a 'movement' affect to the marines should come from the 'movement' chamber. (for obvious reasons) The idea behind sensory is that it should give tactical superiority, but no 'physical' affects. (aside from cloaking)
Shrike30, while a Sensory chamber could cloak OCs, it wouldn't affect siege ability for the hive. The hive would always be visible, and could always be seen by marines. If you have WOL problems then you only need to break out a grenade launcher and the wall will be gone in 30 seconds.
FireStorm, the cloak on the Sensory chamber needs to be 100% for it to be viable. Otherwise you end up with a chamber that has no inherant defence and is easily killed.
Pege, remember the area affect cloak with the sensory chamber would provide aliens with a counter to motion tracking. However it's an OPTION. If they choose to go with Sensory, they will NOT have carapace, (in a one hive game) and so they will be much easier to kill. It's a trade off.
voogru, I'll be interested to hear how that works out...
mojojojo, that's why both chambers would provide a benefit to OCs. If a marine stumbled across a couple OCs wiht a SC nearby, they wouldn't see it. If they came across a coupld OC with a MC nearby, they would be forced to a walk speed and that would give aliens more time to arrive and would make the marines easier to hit.
It's all about pros and cons.
Regards,
Savant
it works like this:
1 sensory chamber will cloak offense chambers and defense chambers with in a close range(about 10-25 feet), the buildings are about 90% invisible. When attacked they become more and more visible until they are healed.
If a commander scans, all the buidlings with in range of the scan become visible for 25 seconds.
Also, the buildings only appear to be cloaked to the marines, aliens can still see the cloaked buildings (but they glow, so they know there cloaked to marines)
Screenshots:
What the aliens see when the buildings are cloaked:
<a href='http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak/ns_nothing0011.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak...nothing0011.jpg</a>
What the aliens see when buildings have just been scanned:
<a href='http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak/ns_nothing0005.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak...nothing0005.jpg</a>
What Marines see when buildings are cloaked:
<a href='http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak/ns_nothing0008.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak...nothing0008.jpg</a>
What Marines see when buildings have just been scanned:
<a href='http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak/ns_nothing0010.jpg' target='_blank'>http://www.voogru.net/www/images/senscloak...nothing0010.jpg</a>
Take note, that the sensory chamber itself will not cloak, so it has to be hidden if you want to build a invisible wall of lame.
The sensory cloak idea's been suggested before... but I'm just glad that people are actually reading and taking note- because these are <i>real</i> good ideas written in a form that people can actually understand (that is, not bash on principle)... heheh...
Personally, after playing 1.04 and winning on the same map as both sides, i'm inclined to say that they are pretty much equal. Theres no need to so drastically change the aliens, because they can already win. If the aliens lost 4 out of 5 matches, then maybe adding cloaking would be a good idea, as it stands 1.04 is good enough without it.
Also, when you reach 2/3 hive stage, you end up with multi defence of cloaking/healing chambers, faster rate of fire/healing chambers or faster rate of fire/cloaked chambers. How do you equal that for the marines?
In Terms of Upgrade Order for Aliens:
Adding abilities for the other structures would be cool, but even with cloaking and faster rate of fire, it still doesnt equal healing, healing allows for un-manned defence, whereas cloaking and movement would need gorges to go by and heal them. Basically, without defence chambers, OCs would take very little time to go down vs two or more marines, whether they be cloaked or shooting faster.
This will work good in my server, since balance is slightly different due to the marines health armory, im about to have to give the marines a new toy otherwise aliens will whoop marines badly.
MC's and SC's shoot projectiles, something like the OC's do now, but instead of damage, the MC's projectile paralyze (like the onos ability) and SC's parasite. With the same lousy accuracy and speed as the OC's of course.
That would make movement chambers a bit more useful in the early game and a good defense against jetpack rushes.
However... in the late game it could be a serious threat to heavy armors. Maybe heavies could be impervious to the paralyzing effect? Or perhaps the 2nd armor upgrade could negate it?
I agree with the 'healing' aspect of chambers. Frankly I would like to see all D/M/S chambers provide healing to friendly aliens/chambers. However, I didn't put that in my post since I wanted to see if I could provide a 'unique' flare to each chamber.
Wheezer, paralysis would be too much. That's why I said a movement penalty. As for parasite, I don't think that would work in the alien's favour. If I was a marine and I was parasited by a SC, I would stop and kill the chamber. Whereas if I don't even know the chamber is there, I will walk right by. HOWEVER, the alien team will know I am coming.
Regards,
Savant
Looking forwards to trying this, voogru <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
Only disatvantage is that aliens are already strong enough.
Only disatvantage is that aliens are already strong enough. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens going D-M-S is strong enough, given reasonable server sizes. Aliens choosing other chambers orders are much weaker (and thus pretty much nonexistant - after all, that's what natural selection is all about :-)).
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From 'The One', right?
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Movement: Gives adrenaline boost to aliens and chambers standing next to it--->kharaas get a boost for say, 30seconds and during that time they do more damage, have incresed power gaining(yellow bar) and they run faster. The hive jumping ability could be moved to automatically hives(so that you can travel using the hive instead of mov) there. Also offence chambers near would be shooting slightly faster. One movement chamber affects two off chambers.
Sensory: Sensory chamber can cloak itself and two other chambers(including res). If there is no chambers near it it will cloak kharaa if the kharaa uses the sens chamber. Also it parasites marines from 7m distance. Offence chambers shoot parasited marines more accurately because they are in the hive sight.
Now I can only imagine the horror of marines when they bump in to WoL consisting of 8off chamber hidden by 8sens chambers, healed by 8def chamber and adrenalised by 8mov chambers. Uh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe thats why we could make a limit: maximum of 8secondary chambers/area. Now gorges would have to decide what tactics would they use with their chambers. 3def, 3sens and 2mov? 4def and 4mov? 4sens, 2def and 2mov? Would bring interesting gamplay elements...
I don't like this, kharaa already have web. The aliens upgrades already compensate the missing of carapace.
good job voogru <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
and the ideas are really cool, i hope the ns team will consider them
1sensory and 1def chamber next to marines base to cover you problem. Sensory would keep you and def invisible and def would heal you. Simple as that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But about every chamber giving health? Too similiar, too boring, would suck very much. Diversity is the key word.
For me I'd need a NICE benefit from the other chambers before I would consider using them. Not just 'token' add-ons, but meat and potatoes additions. The fact is that skulks are WAY too easy to kill without carapace, so if you want to go with a first chamber that is NOT defence, then it better give some darn good returns in exchange for 'instant death' by LMGs.
Remember that this is all about the FIRST chamber being dropped. When a second hive is up and you have fades, again, you face trade-offs. Do you go with movement and adrenaline, or do you go with defence. (assuming you didn't use defence first hive) SO, you could end up with fades that have Sensory/Defense or Sensory/Movement if you don't go with the defence for first chamber.
There's a lot to consider...
Regards,
Savant
Before:
<img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/images/a-alien3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
After:
<img src='http://www.desertcrisis.com/users/commando/nsyummy.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Twilight
Think about what I said for a second. A concussion effect where the marines sight goes blurry while they're around the chamber, which makes more sense in being a <b>sensory</b> ability rather than a <b>movement</b>.
To Pege: All upgrade chambers healing other players just isn't right. It would kinda make the DC obselete.
To Commando: XD
To Twilight: True :o
Before:
<img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/images/a-alien3.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
After:
<img src='http://www.desertcrisis.com/users/commando/nsyummy.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very easy to do.
Find me a model of a meaty marine.
(yes, im seroius)