Dread, about your posts: Sorry if I came across as though +using was my idea. It's yours, sorry I didn't credit you, but I was in a hurry. And I was excited.
I think the idea of using chambers for temporary benefits would be sweet. What I would like to see is very specialized aliens based on what the upgrades are. Like not sorta better in one way, but Insanely Better in one way.
Now then, let's break down the problem: <b>Defense chambers are better at base-fighting, but not as cool as the other chambers. And vice-versa.</b>
Ok, so what do we do? How about this: the first chamber has more powerful upgrades than the next two (not affecting Defense). This way, base-cracking may be viable for early non-carapaced skulks, but won't unbalance the game too much late-stage.
Alternately, they could just make the other abilities a ton better. <b>Especially non-cloak sensory abilities.</b>
Or you could do it with +use abilities (as Dread said), triggered by a small alien base over by the marine base. That could be really cool. Again, Defense need not apply.
We really need to think of ways that Movement + Sensory can be used to take on Marine bases. Any other suggestions?
<!--QuoteBegin--mojojojo+Jan 27 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mojojojo @ Jan 27 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure King will jump on you in a moment.
However, I'm not entirely sure if it is copyright infringement - I'm guessing it depends a lot on how its implemented. But, as you said, Flay seems happy with it, and its not as if he can sue for lost income. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Voogru is whoring server slots for $40.00+ a slot, I'd CERTAINLY mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--Digital-Limit+Jan 27 2003, 05:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Digital-Limit @ Jan 27 2003, 05:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--*Dread*+Jan 27 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (*Dread* @ Jan 27 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (I thought about cloaking other chambers but it would be quite useless as off chambers would give their position up in a sec.) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It shoud cloak other chambers, perfect for making a secret Defense Chamber areas (for healing) or surprise attack squadrons of Offense Chambers for umm... fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, I bet. The marines will just yell "Hooray! Hooray!" when being surprised by invisible walls of lame appearing out of nowhere. We'd have a comm scanning places insanely turning the floor into a blue tidal wave of scan. I can already feel the lag! Help! And think about it: in publics people don't always go in big teams, but instead run around the map in pairs or so. Now the commander would have to keep watch over each tiny team throwing scans everywhere. But, of course, he wouldn't be able to keep up with the marines speed resulting deaths of thousands and thousands of HAs, because they didn't notice 8 OCs in front of em before it was too late! More burden for the already over-worked mule-like commander! Hooray! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't get why you have to stop moving to be cloaked... it isn't like you have to stop moving to get carapace... Recently I tryed hiding right in the middle of a hallway with 3 sensory chamber cloak and he still saw me - I think cloak should partially cloak when running around and 99.9% cloak when you stop moving and like 80% cloak when you bite or shoot stuff. <--- yes I know none of this will happen due to balance but I figured I say it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I've recently begun to try and resurrect my server's sensory first idea. Because right now, it takes 42 res to get 3 D chambers, which is what you need for it to be effective. I dont remember the numbers but it's not that effective at lev. 1&2 only 2 extra shots for 1, and 3 or 4 for level 2. So lets see here, for the D/M/S people you can drop a movement chamber to give skulks celerity. Or, for people you either a) trust or b) willingly want to do it you can drop a sensory chamber. This would let you get a 2nd hive faster, since you didnt spend so much on defense chambers. And, presumebly, lead to a faster capture of the 3rd hive.
As for the forward healing? Umm...yeah I'm just going to sit in some corner making this loud glooping sounds at 10 hp a second and hope I live long enough. Early forward healing, IMO, is the lamest defense for..defense..heh. Its dangerous for the chamber, and its dangerous for the skulks. Also I've finally had a chance to see the new cloak, I thought it was more than satisfactory. As long as you arent standing underneath the light in the middle of the hallway turning around in circles you generally wont be noticed. I think sensory first is viable but, as has been said GOD knows how many times you need a team that is willing to work with it. I recently did a sens first and this llama instantly crys outloud to the whole server "OMG WE DID SENSORY FIRST WE LOSE". Hmm, lets see this not only just told the marines you have cloaking, but now their going to be prepared for it. Yea now it IS pretty much useless, good jaerb there buddy. You also need to get the chamber up fast, I.E. after building first res tower. Gah...now I'm turning this into an arguement...crap. Okay...enough of my blabbering on how to use sens first.
Now this next part is probably going to be horribly wrong, cuz I've played on a linux server for a while. But I think sensory would be extremely good if it worked just like an observatory for the marines. It his a radius and within that radious all marines would show up on hive sight. A new color would be needed to distinguish it, possibly red..or maybe a deep blue? A lotta maps have little nooks that you could throw one down in. Cargo bay in Hera, Horseshoe and Triad in Eclipse, the vents of bast, Vents in Nothing. Lotta viable places, but now you need a gorge that can get all those places. Teamwork and the skulk elevator is all you need, which shouldnt be THAT hard. I'd also like for sensory to make the aliens 100% invisible within the sensory radious, and perhaps a 70% if they were moving through.
I really dont think movement needs to be touched, I think the teleport ability is more than enough myself. OC's can now actually hit a target, and they fire fast enough given their damage.
...plugin for our server <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Lookin for a cool community and a good server(were having some technical difficulties right now and had to make it public for a little bit)thats private? Check out network 42@ <a href='http://www.xlii.com' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com</a> be sure to read the player standards for the server(s) <a href='http://www.xlii.com/nspstandard.cfm' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com/nspstandard.cfm</a> and if your interested fill out an application <a href='http://www.xlii.com/nsapplication.cfm' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com/nsapplication.cfm</a>
I'd like to scream about the people who think cloaking is fine to be visible in the light, the point of cloaking, is that you can't be seen! making us visible in the light, is exactly why no one liked having just 1 sensory chamber, where with 1 movement chamber, it's not that bad....
I honestly don't think that sensory chambers that cloak structures are all that useful. Well, at the very least for walls of lame. Most marines would hear the O chambers firing and back right up around the corner from which they came. There's a pretty distinctive sound that's a heads up.
If I remember correctly, I think someone said that they tried sensory chambers that shot parasites, but they ended up parasiting (almost) the whole marine team and having them all constantly visible so they took it out. Well, I wouldn't mind them reconsidering this. Considering what you're giving up, and the fact that you'd have to build those sensory where marines run by 'em, I don't think it's too big an effect.
And movement might be worth it if they brought you to a hive as usual, then using the hive brought you back to the movey that you last used. I'm sure it would be messy with sticking issues, but that's something that I think would have some tactical signifigance, since you could def the hive/heal up, etc, and then go back to the frontlines quickly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Grimm Spector+Jan 27 2003, 10:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grimm Spector @ Jan 27 2003, 10:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to scream about the people who think cloaking is fine to be visible in the light, the point of cloaking, is that you can't be seen! making us visible in the light, is exactly why no one liked having just 1 sensory chamber, where with 1 movement chamber, it's not that bad.... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe if it activated faster... I hate running from a marine, then cloaking in the open so I can surprise him, but he sees me trying to cloak... I think it should activate instantly after done moving INSTANTLY.
I havent read the entire topic, mainly becuase I'm short on time, but basically, heres my idea to make all the chambers viable.
Make them all available from the start. They work the same, from level 1 upgrade to level three. The difference lies in how the upgrades are implemented.
For example, At hive one, a gorge has worked long and hard to get three of every type of chamber for his team. Each alien has three "Upgrade Credits" so, they can get lvl 3 carapace, and no other upgrades, or he could go for level one of each type of upgrade (Carapace, Celerity and Cloaking for example). At hive 2, they have six upgrade credits, so they can get level 3 carapace and adrenaline, level 2 of each type of upgrade, etc, it's a mix and match that allows aliens more varied gameplay.
Now, that may be overpowered, but I'm not too sure on how to balance it, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful in that regard...
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Jan 28 2003, 12:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jan 28 2003, 12:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I havent read the entire topic, mainly becuase I'm short on time, but basically, heres my idea to make all the chambers viable.
Make them all available from the start. They work the same, from level 1 upgrade to level three. The difference lies in how the upgrades are implemented.
For example, At hive one, a gorge has worked long and hard to get three of every type of chamber for his team. Each alien has three "Upgrade Credits" so, they can get lvl 3 carapace, and no other upgrades, or he could go for level one of each type of upgrade (Carapace, Celerity and Cloaking for example). At hive 2, they have six upgrade credits, so they can get level 3 carapace and adrenaline, level 2 of each type of upgrade, etc, it's a mix and match that allows aliens more varied gameplay.
Now, that may be overpowered, but I'm not too sure on how to balance it, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful in that regard... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> so what your saying is with 1 hive you get 3 points to upgrade, but those three points can be divided up into sens., move, or def. Then you get a second hive, and you get another 3 points making 6 in total, so you could have 2 full abilites or 3 weaker abilities...
It would sorta work like the marines weapon and armor upgrades!!!
OMG this is the perfect soloution to the gameplay of natural selection! Ok those cloaked chambers block the marines way in corridors, therefore the marines will have to rely on their commander to guide them past the chambers. The huge gameplay benifits of this would be fantastic, marine squads would actually have to be sheperded to their destination by the commander, the waypoint and scan system would actually have a use. So it would run a little like this, the marines walk down the corridors bathed by the light of constant scans, suddenly the commander warns them about a wall of oc's around the corner, the marines pop round and start shooting, making the chambers decloak. Or the comm could order them to find another route. This would put the commander back in the game with some actual worth being attatched to the help of the commander. The marines would need to derive some advantage from this advance warning this is obvious in the case of sensory, preventing them running into the chambers and being parasitised is ofc important and in the case of oc's perhaps put in a short delay before they uncloak. More needs to be done on this idea but i feel that the marines should be relying on the commander alot more. Perhaps the cloaked oc's are not such a good idea, but the cloaked sensory is a fantastic one.
kolokol: Commander needs some spare time too you know? He CAN'T babysit his marines all the time when they are moving.
Cronos: theres has been some discussion and i think it could work, although it would be quite difficult and would take a long time to upgrade 9times(if implemented so)with three hives. I would prefer that three chambers could be built at the very beginning but the upgrades would be only lvl1 with one hive. Lvl2 with two hive etc.
[PONY]Dizzle: Iwasn't talking about the credits, I was just showing you my ideas because I thought you had not read them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Voogru: 40$?! Is that true? All this time I thought you were doing this for fun, not for money. So you are practically cashing with someone elses mod. Thats sad. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
General stuff: you could make invisibility an offensive outpost upgrade if you made it so that aliens were able to move with very slow speed(marine crouching speed) as invisible. Like this they could look for blind spots in marine bases and even go undetected next to the phase and chew it without getting shot before the attack. Ofcourse this could be countered by marines by building observatory to outposts but it would bring a new recon element as you can observ enemies base and wait for the right moment to strike in silence.
Actually, it could work very easily, let me explain...
An alien goes to choose his upgrades, he clicks cloaking, a submenu comes up with "Cloaking 1" "Cloaking 2" and "Cloaking 3", he chooses cloaking one, now, he goes to a movement upgrade, say he chooses Celerity, he can only choose "Celerity 1" or "Celerity 2" with "Celerity 3" either being blanked out, or not showing simply because he dosent have the upgrade points to do it. Once three hives are reached, it's fairly reliable that most people would want the most powerful upgrades possible, and so defaults to level 3 upgrades.
Might be a bit tricky to code though, admittedly...
Hehe i guess natural selection will never be like that. I was trying to replace that wet your pants im on an abandoned space ship and im lost in the dark feel where all that keeps you sane and alive is the directions of the commander. Once everyone knows the map this feeling is lost and i was trying to replace that feeling of not knowing whats waiting to eat you a foot away. Because the maps cant change invisible chambers would be needed to provide the unknown surprise as you walk down a corridor. This is one of my big arguments in favour of also removing motion tracking form the marines and making it commander only. I just feel that the marines should be wetting their pants alot more while the commander should be working alot harder to keep them alive, instead of merely run to this point and build me a phasegate. As for commanders dont have the time? What the hell else should he be doing hes supposed to be watching over his marines
Well he could be upgrading, building, dropping equipment, dropping medpacks and ammos, checking on alerts, also he usually has several marine groups which he has to give wps, scan hives to siege...the list goes on and on. And not to mention every marine screaming at commander to do what they want(upgrade, buy,place building, drop meds etc.) Com mode can get pretty hectic some times.
<!--QuoteBegin--*Dread*+Jan 28 2003, 05:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (*Dread* @ Jan 28 2003, 05:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Voogru: 40$?! Is that true? All this time I thought you were doing this for fun, not for money. So you are practically cashing with someone elses mod. Thats sad. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Watch thy tongue. Voogru (actually kInG kAhUnA) doesn't make enough money to pay for the server. I think.
And by the way, with all the updates, it's comparable to playing a $10/month online RPG, ne?
Actually Dread the thread started with me asking what it would take for people to change their build order from D/M/S to something else, so it really wasn't a 'suggestion' thread per se, it was more a "what's your opinion" thread.
My objective was to spur discusion on the viability of other chambers in the early game. I'm hoping that Flayra is reading this, since it does have some good suggestions though. Of course it's up to him if he finds any useful enough to implement.
<!--QuoteBegin--[PONY]Dizzle+Jan 28 2003, 03:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([PONY]Dizzle @ Jan 28 2003, 03:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think what basically everyone is waiting for is for a movement/sensory base-cracking ability.
That's really what it all comes down to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Read my post, there are some ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With sensorys 3rd lvl invisibility Kharaas could move about marine crouching speed(faster than they can now). They would have certain walking/crouching button which would slow their motion to the highest allowed level so you would still stay invisible. So with this Kharaas could go in to marine outposts and bases and either quietly study the defences of the marines and look for a blind spot to chew turret factory for example or then cause mayhem by uncloaking next to marines humping armory. Also 5skulks could sneak in and go around the phase gate and chew it before turrets get to react. They could also crouch near marines building etc. Reminds me of lions in long grass where they advance by crouching and then leap for the kill when they are close enough. The prey will be scared to ***les <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> You think this is TOO good? Nope, remember that kharaas still would become visible if there is observatory near or commander does a scanner sweap.
Adrenaline and celerity are kind of base-busting upgrades. With celerity you can move so fast that turrets cant shoot you very effectively. And this will give you a little longer life expectancy than carapace because you can retreat fast. Also if devs would make it so that skulks chomp takes a little more of their power(yellow bar) so that adrenaline would become very handy when chomping down a base/outpost.
Lots of nice, interesting and useful ideas in this thread. Lets continue the conversation a little longer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Jan 27 2003, 06:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Jan 27 2003, 06:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Voogru is whoring server slots for $40.00+ a slot, I'd CERTAINLY mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is an outright LIE.
The second server (ns2.voogru.net) has OPTIONAL server slots for players, anyone who donates over 5 bucks will get access to one of the slots. (The thread is here: <a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=957)' target='_blank'>http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=957)</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what Voogru is doing is copyright infringement <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If that was true, then what Flayra is doing is copyright infringement as well. Since Half-Life is copywrite of Valve Sofware.
Also, If this was ineed illegal to do what i am doing with NS, we would not see adminmod/metamod and every server-side plugin wouldnt freely available to anyone, Oh yea, we would all still be playing HLDM since no one would make mods becuase they dont wanna infringe on the copywrite.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Jesus Voogru, you realize that you could create a whole new mod in the time it takes to modify this one? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yea, i do. But i have no good ideas for a unique mod, I want to do something someone else hasnt already done. But once i think of something ill prolly work on it. So, to satisfy my modding hunger I mod other mods and expand my knowlege on how HL works before diving into the real thing. I would love to work on my own standalone mod since i wont be limited to many many things which limit me in modding NS, its just i want a good idea to start with.
I really like the idea of motion chambers counter-acting motion tracking, that would be great for setting up key ambush spots along a map, not to mention hide a gorge saving for a hive.
Now, them speeding up resource towers, i don't see that to be really fair. Aliens already overpower and outmatch marines, speeding up resources arn't going to help that.
The slowing down marines idea kind of boggled me at first, and i didn't like it, but it's growing on me. Imagine a orangey mat on the floor, stepping on it, impairing your movement as you round a corner where skulks await. I like that. Although, i think welders should damage the mat, damaging the chamber aswell.
Also, i like seeing a sensory chamber that would put some info about players on the hivesight. IE: Playername (HA/lmg), or Playername (HMG/JP). Would be great for knowing what you're about to attack before you do it, and taking out it in due order.
<!--QuoteBegin--Savant+Jan 27 2003, 09:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Jan 27 2003, 09:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, we've seen plenty of posts suggesting changes to the Sensory/Movements chambers. While this is all well and good, even with the recent change to the sensory chamber, people are still reticent to use them first.
So the question is, what changes to the chambers would make it so YOU would <b>actually</b> consider using them?
For me, I'd need to see the following before I would consider not using defence first:
Sensory: -Should cloak itself 100% and be 'unseen' by marines unless they walk right into it. This would allow for 'tactical placement' of sensory chambers in areas to monitor Marine movements. The sensory chamber would light up any nearby Marines on 'hive sight'. (none of that 'the enemy approaches' stuff) -Should provide a counter to motion tracking in the chamber's area of influence. So, a sensory chamber in a key 'ambush location' would allow aliens to remain unseen and thus this would make up for the lack of carapace. (Which means you die FAST - so getting the jump on marines would be critical to make up for this) -Although optional, what would really sell me on Sensory first would be that it could cloak OCs and resource nodes. (Cloak area would depend on the number of chambers nearby)
Movement: -Causes nearby enemies to slow to 'walk' speed in the MC's area of influence. This would allow a compensation for the lack of carapace, giving skulks a chance to take them out easier. -Makes nearby OCs to fire at a faster rate, as defined by the number of chambers nearby. (1 MC=33% increase 2 MC=66% increase, 3 MC=100% increase or double speed) -Although optional, what would really sell me on Movement first would be if the MC caused an alien RT to output resources at an increased rate. (Similar to what was noted above)
I'd like to hear your suggestions. Remember please, I'd like to hear suggestions on what would make YOU use them first. That means, if your ideas were adopted tomorrow, you would be 99% willing to use a chamber OTHER than a DC in the beginning of the game.
For me, I think the big thing holding me back from using other chambers is the lack of a 'heal' ability in Move/Sensory chambers. So to compensate for that, these other chambers need to be REALLY good in other areas. If the above changes were made I would have a VERY difficult time choosing which chamber to use first, since they would all have advantages.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with every single point <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, the abilities probably don't really even need to be pumped up
If movement + sensory just had an area of effect power that was useful (partially cloaked moving skulks, turn off motion tracking, slow marines, decreased marine accuracy, extra fast skulks, whatever) then they could set up an advanced base of a few sensory/movement and lay an effective siege.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
Something that would help in balancing the chambers it to make carapace a little less necessary. A lerk for example, basically never has a choice when choosing upgrades. Carapace more than tripples his ability to take damage (well, from lvl 0 LMG bullets), going from 9 to 30 bullets.
I'd like to see lvl 0 carapace aliens get about a 20% boost in life, then adjust carap so lvl 3 gives the same life as today. That should make carapace a little less necessary, and thus open the way to other upgrades.
there is nothing wrong with the M and D towers , amt they dont give skulks much of an advantage , cara is handy but not beening seen/heard is better imo, the real problem comes when u look at alien out-posts or defences where u need the D towers or a loyal gorge near by to keep them up for more than a few LMG clips.
if u did chnage all these ideas in the game it would be very unbalanced so then what , mariens get frag and conc grenades to conc the skulks and fades? imo 1.04 has solved alot of game problems that lead to boaring games and the only thing u realy need to worrie about is getting movement with ur second hive cause fades do need it and its great for lerks too.
voogru was it ur server with the armoury that gives health and laser beems? btw good idea learning how it works by moding mods , if people dont like it they dont have to play do they?
<!--QuoteBegin--Rue+Jan 29 2003, 11:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rue @ Jan 29 2003, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> voogru was it ur server with the armoury that gives health and laser beems? btw good idea learning how it works by moding mods , if people dont like it they dont have to play do they? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My server is the one with the healing armory, yes.
I never had laser sights btw, never will either. i dont like them too much, even tho there cool coding wise.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Jan 27 2003, 05:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Jan 27 2003, 05:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--mojojojo+Jan 27 2003, 03:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mojojojo @ Jan 27 2003, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sure King will jump on you in a moment.
However, I'm not entirely sure if it is copyright infringement - I'm guessing it depends a lot on how its implemented. But, as you said, Flay seems happy with it, and its not as if he can sue for lost income. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Voogru is whoring server slots for $40.00+ a slot, I'd CERTAINLY mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are so full of crap.... I can't believe it. UMMMM sorry for tripple post. I tried to edit, and delete one; but can't delete. SORRY!
Comments
Sorry if I came across as though +using was my idea. It's yours, sorry I didn't credit you, but I was in a hurry. And I was excited.
I think the idea of using chambers for temporary benefits would be sweet. What I would like to see is very specialized aliens based on what the upgrades are. Like not sorta better in one way, but Insanely Better in one way.
Now then, let's break down the problem:
<b>Defense chambers are better at base-fighting, but not as cool as the other chambers. And vice-versa.</b>
Ok, so what do we do?
How about this: the first chamber has more powerful upgrades than the next two (not affecting Defense).
This way, base-cracking may be viable for early non-carapaced skulks, but won't unbalance the game too much late-stage.
Alternately, they could just make the other abilities a ton better. <b>Especially non-cloak sensory abilities.</b>
Or you could do it with +use abilities (as Dread said), triggered by a small alien base over by the marine base. That could be really cool. Again, Defense need not apply.
We really need to think of ways that Movement + Sensory can be used to take on Marine bases.
Any other suggestions?
However, I'm not entirely sure if it is copyright infringement - I'm guessing it depends a lot on how its implemented. But, as you said, Flay seems happy with it, and its not as if he can sue for lost income. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voogru is whoring server slots for $40.00+ a slot, I'd CERTAINLY mind.
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It shoud cloak other chambers, perfect for making a secret Defense Chamber areas (for healing) or surprise attack squadrons of Offense Chambers for umm... fun <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I bet. The marines will just yell "Hooray! Hooray!" when being surprised by invisible walls of lame appearing out of nowhere. We'd have a comm scanning places insanely turning the floor into a blue tidal wave of scan. I can already feel the lag! Help! And think about it: in publics people don't always go in big teams, but instead run around the map in pairs or so. Now the commander would have to keep watch over each tiny team throwing scans everywhere. But, of course, he wouldn't be able to keep up with the marines speed resulting deaths of thousands and thousands of HAs, because they didn't notice 8 OCs in front of em before it was too late! More burden for the already over-worked mule-like commander! Hooray! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the forward healing? Umm...yeah I'm just going to sit in some corner making this loud glooping sounds at 10 hp a second and hope I live long enough. Early forward healing, IMO, is the lamest defense for..defense..heh. Its dangerous for the chamber, and its dangerous for the skulks. Also I've finally had a chance to see the new cloak, I thought it was more than satisfactory. As long as you arent standing underneath the light in the middle of the hallway turning around in circles you generally wont be noticed. I think sensory first is viable but, as has been said GOD knows how many times you need a team that is willing to work with it. I recently did a sens first and this llama instantly crys outloud to the whole server "OMG WE DID SENSORY FIRST WE LOSE". Hmm, lets see this not only just told the marines you have cloaking, but now their going to be prepared for it. Yea now it IS pretty much useless, good jaerb there buddy. You also need to get the chamber up fast, I.E. after building first res tower. Gah...now I'm turning this into an arguement...crap. Okay...enough of my blabbering on how to use sens first.
Now this next part is probably going to be horribly wrong, cuz I've played on a linux server for a while. But I think sensory would be extremely good if it worked just like an observatory for the marines. It his a radius and within that radious all marines would show up on hive sight. A new color would be needed to distinguish it, possibly red..or maybe a deep blue? A lotta maps have little nooks that you could throw one down in. Cargo bay in Hera, Horseshoe and Triad in Eclipse, the vents of bast, Vents in Nothing. Lotta viable places, but now you need a gorge that can get all those places. Teamwork and the skulk elevator is all you need, which shouldnt be THAT hard. I'd also like for sensory to make the aliens 100% invisible within the sensory radious, and perhaps a 70% if they were moving through.
I really dont think movement needs to be touched, I think the teleport ability is more than enough myself. OC's can now actually hit a target, and they fire fast enough given their damage.
...plugin for our server <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Lookin for a cool community and a good server(were having some technical difficulties right now and had to make it public for a little bit)thats private? Check out network 42@ <a href='http://www.xlii.com' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com</a>
be sure to read the player standards for the server(s)
<a href='http://www.xlii.com/nspstandard.cfm' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com/nspstandard.cfm</a>
and if your interested fill out an application
<a href='http://www.xlii.com/nsapplication.cfm' target='_blank'>http://www.xlii.com/nsapplication.cfm</a>
If I remember correctly, I think someone said that they tried sensory chambers that shot parasites, but they ended up parasiting (almost) the whole marine team and having them all constantly visible so they took it out. Well, I wouldn't mind them reconsidering this. Considering what you're giving up, and the fact that you'd have to build those sensory where marines run by 'em, I don't think it's too big an effect.
And movement might be worth it if they brought you to a hive as usual, then using the hive brought you back to the movey that you last used. I'm sure it would be messy with sticking issues, but that's something that I think would have some tactical signifigance, since you could def the hive/heal up, etc, and then go back to the frontlines quickly.
Maybe if it activated faster... I hate running from a marine, then cloaking in the open so I can surprise him, but he sees me trying to cloak... I think it should activate instantly after done moving INSTANTLY.
Make them all available from the start. They work the same, from level 1 upgrade to level three. The difference lies in how the upgrades are implemented.
For example, At hive one, a gorge has worked long and hard to get three of every type of chamber for his team. Each alien has three "Upgrade Credits" so, they can get lvl 3 carapace, and no other upgrades, or he could go for level one of each type of upgrade (Carapace, Celerity and Cloaking for example). At hive 2, they have six upgrade credits, so they can get level 3 carapace and adrenaline, level 2 of each type of upgrade, etc, it's a mix and match that allows aliens more varied gameplay.
Now, that may be overpowered, but I'm not too sure on how to balance it, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful in that regard...
Make them all available from the start. They work the same, from level 1 upgrade to level three. The difference lies in how the upgrades are implemented.
For example, At hive one, a gorge has worked long and hard to get three of every type of chamber for his team. Each alien has three "Upgrade Credits" so, they can get lvl 3 carapace, and no other upgrades, or he could go for level one of each type of upgrade (Carapace, Celerity and Cloaking for example). At hive 2, they have six upgrade credits, so they can get level 3 carapace and adrenaline, level 2 of each type of upgrade, etc, it's a mix and match that allows aliens more varied gameplay.
Now, that may be overpowered, but I'm not too sure on how to balance it, any ideas or suggestions would be helpful in that regard... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
so what your saying is with 1 hive you get 3 points to upgrade, but those three points can be divided up into sens., move, or def.
Then you get a second hive, and you get another 3 points making 6 in total, so you could have 2 full abilites or 3 weaker abilities...
It would sorta work like the marines weapon and armor upgrades!!!
I like it!!!!
Ok those cloaked chambers block the marines way in corridors, therefore the marines will have to rely on their commander to guide them past the chambers.
The huge gameplay benifits of this would be fantastic, marine squads would actually have to be sheperded to their destination by the commander, the waypoint and scan system would actually have a use.
So it would run a little like this, the marines walk down the corridors bathed by the light of constant scans, suddenly the commander warns them about a wall of oc's around the corner, the marines pop round and start shooting, making the chambers decloak. Or the comm could order them to find another route.
This would put the commander back in the game with some actual worth being attatched to the help of the commander.
The marines would need to derive some advantage from this advance warning this is obvious in the case of sensory, preventing them running into the chambers and being parasitised is ofc important and in the case of oc's perhaps put in a short delay before they uncloak.
More needs to be done on this idea but i feel that the marines should be relying on the commander alot more.
Perhaps the cloaked oc's are not such a good idea, but the cloaked sensory is a fantastic one.
Cronos: theres has been some discussion and i think it could work, although it would be quite difficult and would take a long time to upgrade 9times(if implemented so)with three hives. I would prefer that three chambers could be built at the very beginning but the upgrades would be only lvl1 with one hive. Lvl2 with two hive etc.
[PONY]Dizzle: Iwasn't talking about the credits, I was just showing you my ideas because I thought you had not read them <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Voogru: 40$?! Is that true? All this time I thought you were doing this for fun, not for money. So you are practically cashing with someone elses mod. Thats sad. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
General stuff: you could make invisibility an offensive outpost upgrade if you made it so that aliens were able to move with very slow speed(marine crouching speed) as invisible. Like this they could look for blind spots in marine bases and even go undetected next to the phase and chew it without getting shot before the attack. Ofcourse this could be countered by marines by building observatory to outposts but it would bring a new recon element as you can observ enemies base and wait for the right moment to strike in silence.
An alien goes to choose his upgrades, he clicks cloaking, a submenu comes up with "Cloaking 1" "Cloaking 2" and "Cloaking 3", he chooses cloaking one, now, he goes to a movement upgrade, say he chooses Celerity, he can only choose "Celerity 1" or "Celerity 2" with "Celerity 3" either being blanked out, or not showing simply because he dosent have the upgrade points to do it. Once three hives are reached, it's fairly reliable that most people would want the most powerful upgrades possible, and so defaults to level 3 upgrades.
Might be a bit tricky to code though, admittedly...
Once everyone knows the map this feeling is lost and i was trying to replace that feeling of not knowing whats waiting to eat you a foot away.
Because the maps cant change invisible chambers would be needed to provide the unknown surprise as you walk down a corridor.
This is one of my big arguments in favour of also removing motion tracking form the marines and making it commander only.
I just feel that the marines should be wetting their pants alot more while the commander should be working alot harder to keep them alive, instead of merely run to this point and build me a phasegate.
As for commanders dont have the time? What the hell else should he be doing hes supposed to be watching over his marines
Watch thy tongue. Voogru (actually kInG kAhUnA) doesn't make enough money to pay for the server. I think.
And by the way, with all the updates, it's comparable to playing a $10/month online RPG, ne?
My objective was to spur discusion on the viability of other chambers in the early game. I'm hoping that Flayra is reading this, since it does have some good suggestions though. Of course it's up to him if he finds any useful enough to implement.
Regards,
Savant
That's really what it all comes down to.
That's really what it all comes down to. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my post, there are some ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With sensorys 3rd lvl invisibility Kharaas could move about marine crouching speed(faster than they can now). They would have certain walking/crouching button which would slow their motion to the highest allowed level so you would still stay invisible. So with this Kharaas could go in to marine outposts and bases and either quietly study the defences of the marines and look for a blind spot to chew turret factory for example or then cause mayhem by uncloaking next to marines humping armory. Also 5skulks could sneak in and go around the phase gate and chew it before turrets get to react. They could also crouch near marines building etc. Reminds me of lions in long grass where they advance by crouching and then leap for the kill when they are close enough. The prey will be scared to ***les <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> You think this is TOO good? Nope, remember that kharaas still would become visible if there is observatory near or commander does a scanner sweap.
Adrenaline and celerity are kind of base-busting upgrades. With celerity you can move so fast that turrets cant shoot you very effectively. And this will give you a little longer life expectancy than carapace because you can retreat fast. Also if devs would make it so that skulks chomp takes a little more of their power(yellow bar) so that adrenaline would become very handy when chomping down a base/outpost.
Lots of nice, interesting and useful ideas in this thread. Lets continue the conversation a little longer <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That is an outright LIE.
The second server (ns2.voogru.net) has OPTIONAL server slots for players, anyone who donates over 5 bucks will get access to one of the slots. (The thread is here: <a href='http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=957)' target='_blank'>http://forums.voogru.com/showthread.php?threadid=957)</a>
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what Voogru is doing is copyright infringement
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If that was true, then what Flayra is doing is copyright infringement as well. Since Half-Life is copywrite of Valve Sofware.
Also, If this was ineed illegal to do what i am doing with NS, we would not see adminmod/metamod and every server-side plugin wouldnt freely available to anyone, Oh yea, we would all still be playing HLDM since no one would make mods becuase they dont wanna infringe on the copywrite.
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Jesus Voogru, you realize that you could create a whole new mod in the time it takes to modify this one? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Yea, i do. But i have no good ideas for a unique mod, I want to do something someone else hasnt already done. But once i think of something ill prolly work on it.
So, to satisfy my modding hunger I mod other mods and expand my knowlege on how HL works before diving into the real thing. I would love to work on my own standalone mod since i wont be limited to many many things which limit me in modding NS, its just i want a good idea to start with.
Now, them speeding up resource towers, i don't see that to be really fair. Aliens already overpower and outmatch marines, speeding up resources arn't going to help that.
The slowing down marines idea kind of boggled me at first, and i didn't like it, but it's growing on me. Imagine a orangey mat on the floor, stepping on it, impairing your movement as you round a corner where skulks await. I like that. Although, i think welders should damage the mat, damaging the chamber aswell.
Also, i like seeing a sensory chamber that would put some info about players on the hivesight. IE: Playername (HA/lmg), or Playername (HMG/JP). Would be great for knowing what you're about to attack before you do it, and taking out it in due order.
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So the question is, what changes to the chambers would make it so YOU would <b>actually</b> consider using them?
For me, I'd need to see the following before I would consider not using defence first:
Sensory:
-Should cloak itself 100% and be 'unseen' by marines unless they walk right into it. This would allow for 'tactical placement' of sensory chambers in areas to monitor Marine movements. The sensory chamber would light up any nearby Marines on 'hive sight'. (none of that 'the enemy approaches' stuff)
-Should provide a counter to motion tracking in the chamber's area of influence. So, a sensory chamber in a key 'ambush location' would allow aliens to remain unseen and thus this would make up for the lack of carapace. (Which means you die FAST - so getting the jump on marines would be critical to make up for this)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Sensory first would be that it could cloak OCs and resource nodes. (Cloak area would depend on the number of chambers nearby)
Movement:
-Causes nearby enemies to slow to 'walk' speed in the MC's area of influence. This would allow a compensation for the lack of carapace, giving skulks a chance to take them out easier.
-Makes nearby OCs to fire at a faster rate, as defined by the number of chambers nearby. (1 MC=33% increase 2 MC=66% increase, 3 MC=100% increase or double speed)
-Although optional, what would really sell me on Movement first would be if the MC caused an alien RT to output resources at an increased rate. (Similar to what was noted above)
I'd like to hear your suggestions. Remember please, I'd like to hear suggestions on what would make YOU use them first. That means, if your ideas were adopted tomorrow, you would be 99% willing to use a chamber OTHER than a DC in the beginning of the game.
For me, I think the big thing holding me back from using other chambers is the lack of a 'heal' ability in Move/Sensory chambers. So to compensate for that, these other chambers need to be REALLY good in other areas. If the above changes were made I would have a VERY difficult time choosing which chamber to use first, since they would all have advantages.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with every single point <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
If movement + sensory just had an area of effect power that was useful (partially cloaked moving skulks, turn off motion tracking, slow marines, decreased marine accuracy, extra fast skulks, whatever) then they could set up an advanced base of a few sensory/movement and lay an effective siege.
Sorry for making that all one sentence.
I'd like to see lvl 0 carapace aliens get about a 20% boost in life, then adjust carap so lvl 3 gives the same life as today. That should make carapace a little less necessary, and thus open the way to other upgrades.
if u did chnage all these ideas in the game it would be very unbalanced so then what , mariens get frag and conc grenades to conc the skulks and fades? imo 1.04 has solved alot of game problems that lead to boaring games and the only thing u realy need to worrie about is getting movement with ur second hive cause fades do need it and its great for lerks too.
voogru was it ur server with the armoury that gives health and laser beems? btw good idea learning how it works by moding mods , if people dont like it they dont have to play do they?
My server is the one with the healing armory, yes.
I never had laser sights btw, never will either. i dont like them too much, even tho there cool coding wise.
However, I'm not entirely sure if it is copyright infringement - I'm guessing it depends a lot on how its implemented. But, as you said, Flay seems happy with it, and its not as if he can sue for lost income. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Voogru is whoring server slots for $40.00+ a slot, I'd CERTAINLY mind. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are so full of crap.... I can't believe it. UMMMM sorry for tripple post. I tried to edit, and delete one; but can't delete. SORRY!