<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Jan 29 2003, 07:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Jan 29 2003, 07:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And military forces throughout history are famous for not using the best available equipment, for various reasons. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As pertaining to the use of "old weaponry" <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it aint broke, don't fix it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things that would make someone use sub-standard equipment: Contracts for one...in WW1 we were screwed into using the French Chauchot (however you spell that crap) Light Machinegun. It was the worst weapon of the war, by far, and in 1918 (only several months after we had entered the war), we had the Browning Automatic Rifle...by far, the best Auto Rifle of the war. The point is that we were obliged to use that crappy French "weapon" by force of contract -- also we were partially worried that if the BAR were to ever get into the hands of our enemies, they would copy it and use it against us. The U.S.A was only in Europe fighting for 6-8 months, and that was with a terrible terrible weapon to support their men - imagine how much better they could have done with the Browning <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> I don't feel like typing anymore...so I won't make a "...for two".
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> May I ask If anyone here has read any books by PETER f HAMILTON??? If anyone has ,has any you guys ;talking about futuristic tech thought what about weapons similar to those in the first Nights Dawn Trilogy Book ex. the gauss gun etc..? In NS? <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo-->
That gun that shoots out the silicon crystal shards would be a killer bye bye ONOS lol..
Also the tech described in the books seem on par to about the NS tech used by the TSA..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lasers take tremendous amounts of energy to be very powerful. I highly doubt they will ever be efficient enough to warrant their use as a weapon, other than on a large battle (space?) ship.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true yes, but wasn`t the same sorta thing said 20 - 30 odd years ago about computers and how they would never be able to be any type of use execpt giant calculators. and that the dimenstions of personal computers were just a myth.
If you look at the advancements of weaponry and anti-weaponry, the possibility of magneticly propelled projectiles (ala RAIL GUNS) is truly not far away. Also the use of beam weaponry is not far away. You think that 1500 horsepower Turbodiesel on the M1 Abrams can't generate enough juice to make a L.A.S.E.R. an effective weapon? I think it can, and I think it will one day. We can already shoot down missiles with lasers, and we've already shot down <i>Artillery Shells</i> with lasers also! Don't be so naive boys, it's right around the corner. Arming personnel with lasers might take a little longer, so as to make the systems more compact and easily carried, but nonetheless it would only be a couple decades behind at most, I would imagine.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
I always thought the Yamato gun from SC was a comedy one.
Make a tube shaped field, strong enough to withhold a nuclear blast. Point said field so the hole is facing the target, and set off the nuke at one end.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The physics of shockwaves (plug!) do the rest.
On the lasers point, lasers have 2 issues.
A) They don't like atmosphere. They're much more useful as a deep space weapon.
B) It's a case of energy expenditure vs. result. You can achieve the same result (complete obliteration of target) with much less, so why bother?
1) You can't see it coming 2) Even if you do...it's coming at the speed of light 3) The sheer energy of a beam weapon can punch through just about anything we've got today (and no mirrors won't reflect them...) That's why they use CO<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>2</span> lasers to cut through things like Double Rolled Homogenous Steel (the primary defense for todays Armor -- aka Tanks).
It's the future...you can't stop it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
as much as NS may look like it needs laser, i really do prefer a bullet rather than laser or some zappy zappy gun. just adds real authentic atmosphere to everything when you see the marines lay on with machine gun fire and the place lights up then dims in miliseconds and the cartridges get spewed out along with the horrendus sounds of bullets being shot out at hundreds of miles an hour and more getting loaded in. yum yum yum <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin---fool-+Jan 29 2003, 05:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (-fool- @ Jan 29 2003, 05:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> sound guns could replace the hmg. you would shoot little sound waves and knock aliens 20 feet back, and if they get smacked hard enough into a wall they die.you could even get 10 kills with one shot, if they all stand in a line and you shoot them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> great idea but instead of hurting the aliens they act like the force for example just throws bk the alien stops them from biting you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course you'd still need bullets for it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Whilst using a light frequency invisible to humans. As well as the diffraction from the beam would probably be visible, even if the beam itself wasn't.
Plus, the idea that lasers of that power would also actually *WOULD* make a noise, due to the effect on the air that the laser passes through on the way.
(Face it, if it's powerful enough to drill holes through you, it's going to mess up the air molecules in the way and put holes in whatever is behind the target too!)
Yup, its a game. So all talk at realism basically doesn't matter. Especially in a game like NS. For something like DoD, realism is very important. Why? Atmosphere. And the atmosphere is a large part of why DoD is such a great game. You feel like you're really crawling up the beaches of Normandy, dreading snipers or machine gunners because you know one shot is probably going to kill you. NS has a very different atmosphere, but its one the devs have been very careful to cultivate and watch. They know how they want their game to feel, and they set guidelines to make sure the game keeps that feeling. Personally, I like what they've done and will trust them to keep the feeling of the game, whether thats by adding new weapons, changing the entire weapon setup, or leaving it like it is. This is a suggestions forum, and its been put here to give the community a place to express our ideas about what we would like to see happen with the game. As such, we should all try and be at least semi-respectful and not flame, even if we personally disagree with something. Constructive criticsism(spelled wrong) is a good thing, and should be something we all try to give. Thats not to say if someone posts about some "Ub3R-l33t nuCl34R MEcH sUi+" that we shouldn't tell them to stop wasting our time with stuff the devs have put a definate no on, but try and be kind to reasonably well thought out ideas. And thats a general statement, not really directed at this thread. Speaking for myself, I like to do my Kharaa hunting with projectile weapons, but I would like to see some more variety in the marines arsenal. Not really nukes or lasers, but something. As far as the realism argument goes, two things. One, the Kharaa are aliens, and therefore we don't know how weapons would affect them, mainly because their haven't been any detailed physiological reports made on them, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter. They take damage like the devs say they do, and again, I'm guessing that has a lot to do with how they want the game to feel. Second, try and remember a key element to enjoying any kind of sci-fi entertainment: suspension of disbelief. Now that I've rambled and taken up way to much of your time, I'll end this post.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
True, but who said I was a scientist?
/me straps on my Barney (The cop from HL, not the dinosaur) outfit, and gets back on patrol.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Arrgh! Fear my unlimited ammo Glock, Zombie!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ehh, heard of lightning? It superheats air, and you get an incredibly loud bang you can hear miles away. Now, think, what is this laser doing? Oh, yeah, superheating the air. Hrmm...
Also, heat dissipation is a big factor; you're generating all that heat from a laser, so how do you keep your gun from melting? The size of the cooling system would have to be huge as compared to the wattage of the laser, so for a pencil-thick beam that can cut through a running Fade's carapace, you'd need a VW Bug-sized Peltier.
Basically, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay that's really missing, it's a lot of work, and it's unrealistic to the point of disbelief. So why add it?
I love gearhead stuff <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Look at it from a tactical point of view: do you want a weapon that can punch a nice clean hole directly through a skulk (laser rifle), or a weapon that fires on full-automatic and can punch a bunch of smaller, nastier wounds into a skulk (LMG)?
Personally, i'm all for the autofire... consider that these pitbulls move around FAST, and the simple act of waiting for a laser to recycle might get you killed. Plus, if that little hole you just punched in the skulk doesn't hit anything lethal, you're not gonna see it stopping...
In Aliens, they used "modern firearms," yeah... seriously jacked up. HEAP ammunition, electrical pulse-action, impact/delay fusing, selectable fusing and infrared tracking on the smartguns... you all act as if ballistic weapons have come to a standstill while lasers have made huge advances. Keep in mind that NS's guns have no recoil (a "looping recoil reloading system?" i want one...), have seriously damaging ammunition, load from cassetes (in the case of the HMG), and have double-barreled cycling in a man-portable weapon (the HMG again)... looks fairly advanced compared to today's firearms...
who said that lasers are restricted to the pulsed variety? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
sure, a laser would punch an itty bitty hole thru a skulk, but since he's moving it'd likely cleave him in two if the pulse was > .5 seconds or so.
what about beaming the laser thru a path that ends in a slightly convex lens? Makes a wider angle beam with less intensity, which then makes skulk barbecue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: shrike30, go to <a href='http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun3.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun3.htm</a> to learn about recoil reloading systems. i don't think NS weapons are 100% recoilless because there is a lot of spread for them.
second edit: html just owned me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--sekdar+Jan 29 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sekdar @ Jan 29 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> edit: shrike30, click <a href='http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun3.htm' target='_blank'>here</a> to learn about recoil reloading systems. i don't think NS weapons are 100% recoilless because there is a lot of spread for them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Heh.... i apparently haven't established my real-life firearms cred on this board yet. Trust me, i know how recoil-based actions work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm referring to the NS manual, which can be directly quoted as saying:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its looping kinetic reload means that it takes the recoil energy from each shot and uses it to reload and recharge ? so there is barely any kick, and it fires as fast as you can pull the trigger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is NOT a technology in use yet today... otherwise we'd be seeing a lot heavier calibers in use in our infantry rifles.
lasers are also used ot blind people. they have machines that emit very bright light or some laser thing and they did it on accident once and it blinded 10 people.
as nobody seems to have stated this obvious point yet i'll do it Flayras original intention, and im 99% sure that it still is his intetntion was simple
GAMEPLAY > REALISM
So whilst these page long replys about how lasers work are fascinating to read it boils down to two options, either NS would have a superneatokeenol337z0r laser rifle that was teh size of a normal gun, fired energy bolts that didnt burn holes in metal but would instantly kill any creature they touched, or we'd have laser weaposn that were the size of a house and required a 32 man team just to point it in the general direction of the enemy.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Actually Necro, you're the third person to write exactly that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
the TSA will probably eventually refit their soldiers now that they've learned how deadly reloading is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
actually the best reason i can think of that the TSA isn't using lasers, is that you can't put "friendly fire" tech into an energy beam. Sure it's suspending disbelief that the GL, acid rocket, spikes, siege gun, offense chamber, gorge spit and bile bomb do not do significant damage against the environment, a laser, which will consistenly hole the walls (potentially several walls) is bad. imagine if you accidentally hole a bulkhead and not stop firing? Blowout too fast for nanotech to repair. which can potentially suck you and the alien out into space. Hence the tsa is loath to equip troops with a weapon that would do that.
Also the "bottom line" explanation is good enough. While the US army is notorious for spending horrendous amounts of cash in military RnD, it would rarely go for the uber high tech.
case in point: M4 carbine vs AK47 (CS weapons yes, but bear with me.) The m4 carbine is more accurate, but it's also damn expensive, not to mention in real world situations a **** to maintain in the field. the AK on the other hand, thanks to simple construction can be dropped in mud and still fire (accuracy is another matter) an M4 would simply jam. M4 is the "high tech" solution and the AK 47 is the "low tech" solution.
Similarly man portable lasers are "high tech" solutions and our LMG/HMG are the "low tech" solutions to the problem. As for realism... read the manual, you'll find that a lot of thought has gone through giving reasons why certain weapons simply aren't used.
On the Starship troopers note: It's a good book on government. The standard mobile infantry power suit is more like powered armor like the support units you see in the series. Except they do have mini fusion nukes, mines, missiles, and bombs. Although all my friends still are wondering what the heck Rico said that would be equivalent to "Home is where the heart is" in Batangueno.
I've only read a handful of replies in here, but two things strike me:
1) I've seen the infection caused by modern bullets brought up multiple times. WTF are you guys smoking? "Hahahaha Mr. Fade, I gave you gangrene, now whatcha gonna do? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> " *RIPTEARMAIMSHREDMUTILATE* ....chuckle
2) Mutually exclusive upgrade paths for the marines = <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The flow of discussion here suggests that people think I was arguing for puting lasers into the game. All I wanted to say was that people should stop arguing about the gameplay in terms of reality. For instance, "bunnyhopping has no place in NS because you don't see marines doing it," or "it destroys the atmosphere" etc. Any atmosphere involving teleporters and common machine guns is borked. Argue all you want, but we are closer to using laser weapons than we are teleporters. If you want to argue from the sci-fi atmosphere perspective, either the teleporters or the mg's have to go. Since gameplay is more important than atmosphere or reality, the things that make no sense whatsoever need to stay.
It's just annoying to see people trying to appear knowledgeable by posting all this realistic mumbo-jumbo while talking about a video game.
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 1 2003, 05:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 1 2003, 05:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's just annoying to see people trying to appear knowledgeable by posting all this realistic mumbo-jumbo while talking about a video game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> read the above.... and read it again.... then read it some more until you have raad it 47 times.... Then let that information sink into your heads!
A number of posts ago I noticed someone saying that the TSA should be dropping in fully armored and armed troops. I don't know if my perspective was posted by someone else who shares it but I will post it here in the case that it has not.
From the perspective of the marines, at map start, perhaps they don't know what they are going up against. Maybe they think lmgs and light armor will help them out.
Comments
Ask yourself - why were there no lasers in Aliens? Why do the Terran marines in Star Craft use guns?
The atmosphere of NS is just not geared towards energyweapons, and that's mighty fine with me.
As pertaining to the use of "old weaponry"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If it aint broke, don't fix it...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Things that would make someone use sub-standard equipment:
Contracts for one...in WW1 we were screwed into using the French Chauchot (however you spell that crap) Light Machinegun. It was the worst weapon of the war, by far, and in 1918 (only several months after we had entered the war), we had the Browning Automatic Rifle...by far, the best Auto Rifle of the war. The point is that we were obliged to use that crappy French "weapon" by force of contract -- also we were partially worried that if the BAR were to ever get into the hands of our enemies, they would copy it and use it against us. The U.S.A was only in Europe fighting for 6-8 months, and that was with a terrible terrible weapon to support their men - imagine how much better they could have done with the Browning <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't feel like typing anymore...so I won't make a "...for two".
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
That gun that shoots out the silicon crystal shards would be a killer bye bye ONOS lol..
Also the tech described in the books seem on par to about the NS tech used by the TSA..
Just a thought use it dont use it...
true yes, but wasn`t the same sorta thing said 20 - 30 odd years ago about computers and how they would never be able to be any type of use execpt giant calculators. and that the dimenstions of personal computers were just a myth.
If you look at the advancements of weaponry and anti-weaponry, the possibility of magneticly propelled projectiles (ala RAIL GUNS) is truly not far away. Also the use of beam weaponry is not far away. You think that 1500 horsepower Turbodiesel on the M1 Abrams can't generate enough juice to make a L.A.S.E.R. an effective weapon? I think it can, and I think it will one day.
We can already shoot down missiles with lasers, and we've already shot down <i>Artillery Shells</i> with lasers also! Don't be so naive boys, it's right around the corner. Arming personnel with lasers might take a little longer, so as to make the systems more compact and easily carried, but nonetheless it would only be a couple decades behind at most, I would imagine.
<span style='font-family:Courier'><span style='color:red'><span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> REALLY!?</span></span></span>
Make a tube shaped field, strong enough to withhold a nuclear blast. Point said field so the hole is facing the target, and set off the nuke at one end.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The physics of shockwaves (plug!) do the rest.
On the lasers point, lasers have 2 issues.
A) They don't like atmosphere. They're much more useful as a deep space weapon.
B) It's a case of energy expenditure vs. result. You can achieve the same result (complete obliteration of target) with much less, so why bother?
1) You can't see it coming
2) Even if you do...it's coming at the speed of light
3) The sheer energy of a beam weapon can punch through just about anything we've got today (and no mirrors won't reflect them...) That's why they use CO<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>2</span> lasers to cut through things like Double Rolled Homogenous Steel (the primary defense for todays Armor -- aka Tanks).
It's the future...you can't stop it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
as much as NS may look like it needs laser, i really do prefer a bullet rather than laser or some zappy zappy gun. just adds real authentic atmosphere to everything when you see the marines lay on with machine gun fire and the place lights up then dims in miliseconds and the cartridges get spewed out along with the horrendus sounds of bullets being shot out at hundreds of miles an hour and more getting loaded in.
yum yum yum <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
great idea but instead of hurting the aliens they act like the force for example just throws bk the alien stops them from biting you <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course you'd still need bullets for it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
zippy
Plus, the idea that lasers of that power would also actually *WOULD* make a noise, due to the effect on the air that the laser passes through on the way.
(Face it, if it's powerful enough to drill holes through you, it's going to mess up the air molecules in the way and put holes in whatever is behind the target too!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE (Vimstl @ Jan 29 2003, 12:39 PM)
It's . . . a . . . GAME . . .
REALLY!? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, its a game. So all talk at realism basically doesn't matter. Especially in a game like NS. For something like DoD, realism is very important. Why? Atmosphere. And the atmosphere is a large part of why DoD is such a great game. You feel like you're really crawling up the beaches of Normandy, dreading snipers or machine gunners because you know one shot is probably going to kill you. NS has a very different atmosphere, but its one the devs have been very careful to cultivate and watch. They know how they want their game to feel, and they set guidelines to make sure the game keeps that feeling. Personally, I like what they've done and will trust them to keep the feeling of the game, whether thats by adding new weapons, changing the entire weapon setup, or leaving it like it is. This is a suggestions forum, and its been put here to give the community a place to express our ideas about what we would like to see happen with the game. As such, we should all try and be at least semi-respectful and not flame, even if we personally disagree with something. Constructive criticsism(spelled wrong) is a good thing, and should be something we all try to give. Thats not to say if someone posts about some "Ub3R-l33t nuCl34R MEcH sUi+" that we shouldn't tell them to stop wasting our time with stuff the devs have put a definate no on, but try and be kind to reasonably well thought out ideas. And thats a general statement, not really directed at this thread. Speaking for myself, I like to do my Kharaa hunting with projectile weapons, but I would like to see some more variety in the marines arsenal. Not really nukes or lasers, but something. As far as the realism argument goes, two things. One, the Kharaa are aliens, and therefore we don't know how weapons would affect them, mainly because their haven't been any detailed physiological reports made on them, and quite frankly, it doesn't matter. They take damage like the devs say they do, and again, I'm guessing that has a lot to do with how they want the game to feel. Second, try and remember a key element to enjoying any kind of sci-fi entertainment: suspension of disbelief. Now that I've rambled and taken up way to much of your time, I'll end this post.
/me straps on my Barney (The cop from HL, not the dinosaur) outfit, and gets back on patrol.... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
"Arrgh! Fear my unlimited ammo Glock, Zombie!" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, heat dissipation is a big factor; you're generating all that heat from a laser, so how do you keep your gun from melting? The size of the cooling system would have to be huge as compared to the wattage of the laser, so for a pencil-thick beam that can cut through a running Fade's carapace, you'd need a VW Bug-sized Peltier.
Basically, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay that's really missing, it's a lot of work, and it's unrealistic to the point of disbelief. So why add it?
Look at it from a tactical point of view: do you want a weapon that can punch a nice clean hole directly through a skulk (laser rifle), or a weapon that fires on full-automatic and can punch a bunch of smaller, nastier wounds into a skulk (LMG)?
Personally, i'm all for the autofire... consider that these pitbulls move around FAST, and the simple act of waiting for a laser to recycle might get you killed. Plus, if that little hole you just punched in the skulk doesn't hit anything lethal, you're not gonna see it stopping...
In Aliens, they used "modern firearms," yeah... seriously jacked up. HEAP ammunition, electrical pulse-action, impact/delay fusing, selectable fusing and infrared tracking on the smartguns... you all act as if ballistic weapons have come to a standstill while lasers have made huge advances. Keep in mind that NS's guns have no recoil (a "looping recoil reloading system?" i want one...), have seriously damaging ammunition, load from cassetes (in the case of the HMG), and have double-barreled cycling in a man-portable weapon (the HMG again)... looks fairly advanced compared to today's firearms...
sure, a laser would punch an itty bitty hole thru a skulk, but since he's moving it'd likely cleave him in two if the pulse was > .5 seconds or so.
what about beaming the laser thru a path that ends in a slightly convex lens? Makes a wider angle beam with less intensity, which then makes skulk barbecue <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
edit: shrike30, go to <a href='http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun3.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun3.htm</a> to learn about recoil reloading systems. i don't think NS weapons are 100% recoilless because there is a lot of spread for them.
second edit: html just owned me <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Heh.... i apparently haven't established my real-life firearms cred on this board yet. Trust me, i know how recoil-based actions work. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm referring to the NS manual, which can be directly quoted as saying:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its looping kinetic reload means that it takes the recoil energy from each shot and uses it to reload and recharge ? so there is barely any kick, and it fires as fast as you can pull the trigger. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is NOT a technology in use yet today... otherwise we'd be seeing a lot heavier calibers in use in our infantry rifles.
Flayras original intention, and im 99% sure that it still is his intetntion was simple
GAMEPLAY > REALISM
So whilst these page long replys about how lasers work are fascinating to read it boils down to two options, either NS would have a superneatokeenol337z0r laser rifle that was teh size of a normal gun, fired energy bolts that didnt burn holes in metal but would instantly kill any creature they touched, or we'd have laser weaposn that were the size of a house and required a 32 man team just to point it in the general direction of the enemy.
This is why there are no lasers in NS
The lasers were a no-no because as a sci-fi mod the team wanted something different than your average alien killing gun.
That and bullets are cooler!
Also the "bottom line" explanation is good enough. While the US army is notorious for spending horrendous amounts of cash in military RnD, it would rarely go for the uber high tech.
case in point: M4 carbine vs AK47 (CS weapons yes, but bear with me.) The m4 carbine is more accurate, but it's also damn expensive, not to mention in real world situations a **** to maintain in the field. the AK on the other hand, thanks to simple construction can be dropped in mud and still fire (accuracy is another matter) an M4 would simply jam. M4 is the "high tech" solution and the AK 47 is the "low tech" solution.
Similarly man portable lasers are "high tech" solutions and our LMG/HMG are the "low tech" solutions to the problem. As for realism... read the manual, you'll find that a lot of thought has gone through giving reasons why certain weapons simply aren't used.
On the Starship troopers note: It's a good book on government. The standard mobile infantry power suit is more like powered armor like the support units you see in the series. Except they do have mini fusion nukes, mines, missiles, and bombs. Although all my friends still are wondering what the heck Rico said that would be equivalent to "Home is where the heart is" in Batangueno.
1) I've seen the infection caused by modern bullets brought up multiple times. WTF are you guys smoking? "Hahahaha Mr. Fade, I gave you gangrene, now whatcha gonna do? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> " *RIPTEARMAIMSHREDMUTILATE* ....chuckle
2) Mutually exclusive upgrade paths for the marines = <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's just annoying to see people trying to appear knowledgeable by posting all this realistic mumbo-jumbo while talking about a video game.
read the above.... and read it again.... then read it some more until you have raad it 47 times.... Then let that information sink into your heads!
From the perspective of the marines, at map start, perhaps they don't know what they are going up against. Maybe they think lmgs and light armor will help them out.