1.04 Marine Build Order

littlewild · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">What is your new build order?</div> I wonder if people still use the classic 2 IP -> Armour -> Obs bo.
The new trend seems to be 1 IP->TF->2xTurrects>Obs/Armoury.

There is actually more people placing turrects in base now. Strange.

DoADrunkMonkey · January 2003

i used to go for a tf in base but now i just do the 2 ips, arm and obs then tell some marines to go to nearest res, i take that and secure it with tf and go for more and a hive in the process.

the marines spawning at base is enough for deffence and the people humping the armoury would help too.

Firewater · January 2003

my build order (though i rarely command) is as follows

1 IP
1 armory
1 arms lab

research lvl 1 armor, have half the team cap nodes and the other half hunt the gorge/attack their hive

by the time L1 armor is done, the RT should be up, tech L1 weapons, and proceed to cap 2 more RTs, while still containing the aliens. If your marines are dying a lot, build another IP.

This strat is very aggressive and relies purely on the ability of your marines to shoot and put pressure on the aliens, the objective is to contain all the aliens in their hive, however thats usually unrealisitic, but you can have your marine search for the gorge and camp at the nearest Alien RTs to surprise them.

It is also important to suicide run their D chambers, because if the gorge gets killed a few times (without building D chambers first like they should) they will get frustrated and start to build them, by having some marines hit the hive, and have some expand, you can quickly monopolize the map and then just tech whatever you want after that.

littlewild · January 2003

Armour upgrade is as important as motion detector upgrade. However, early game economy will only allow one, not both. Which one will you choose? Obs -> Motion sensing or Armoury -> Lvl 1 armour?

Obs = $25
Motion = $45

Arms Lab = $45
Lvl 1 Armour = $20

Also, what is your favourite public server build order? (That wins the game)

technophile · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (littlewild @ Jan 30 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Armour upgrade is as important as motion detector upgrade. However, early game economy will only allow one, not both. Which one will you choose? Obs -> Motion sensing or Armoury -> Lvl 1 armour?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Depends on your marines. If you have confidence in their ability to aim and cover each other, go MT. If they can't hit the broad side of a barn (well, if that's the case you're dead anyway, but whatever), go armor to give them that extra second or two to kill the skulk on their back.

If they're somewhere in the middle, ask the marines. They almost always have an opinion. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Firewater · January 2003

I go arms lab first because (this may sound very arrogant) but when I pub i assume everyone on my team sucks, unless i know them or have seen them play before. That is why I tech armor because a lot of people dont even prefire with MT anyways, and by getting the arms lab, I can get the proto lab and tech to JP/HA. The arms lab allows more options, i'm not saying MT is horrible but in a pub i will take passive upgrades over it anyday.

Fantasmo · January 2003

Hmmm... really gets me thinking.

I used to prioritize MT over Arms Lab because I figured knowing the movements of the alien team should make node grabbing and hive securing easier. The Phase Lock Down is still popular on pubs and I find holding the Hive for those crucial build times is easier when you know the alien movements.

But I do see the value in getting Arms Lab first and just generally improving the physical survivability of your basic marine. When you can't shoot you can't shoot and I guess it doesn't matter if you know whether they are coming or not. If you can't take them down at medium to long range you will need deal with them at close range which nullifies the MT bonus anyways.

Interesting... I guess instead of assuming I should ask the team, I pretty much get MT as a matter of routine nowadays.

Generally I prefer MT over Armour/Weapon Upgrades in the beginning. After a few nodes go up Weapon/Armour Upgrades are nice. (Unless we are Tech Rushing)

rebo · January 2003

you dont 'really' need MT if you use your ears. Tho where it is handy is seeing at a far distance where the skulks are moving. MT+obs costs 70 RP which pays for 2 HMG JPers - i guess it depends how well you have contained the aliens and how close they are for the 2nd hive to go up.

FlatlineUTD · February 2003

I'm still tweaking it a bit, but here's my current order:

1 IP
Armory
Obs + Motion tracking

While that's going, I grab a node or two, and have my team secure them with mines. I get an Arms Lab, and start the tech, while capping more nodes.

Get a Prototype Lab and Advanced Armory (because the resources are just rolling in by now) for jetpacks/HMGs, then assault the Hive.

This ISN'T for a pub though. I still always have better luck with the 2-Hive lockdown on those.

Firewater · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flatline[UTD] @ Feb 1 2003, 12:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I'm still tweaking it a bit, but here's my current order:

1 IP
Armory
Obs + Motion tracking

While that's going, I grab a node or two, and have my team secure them with mines. I get an Arms Lab, and start the tech, while capping more nodes.

Get a Prototype Lab and Advanced Armory (because the resources are just rolling in by now) for jetpacks/HMGs, then assault the Hive.

This ISN'T for a pub though. I still always have better luck with the 2-Hive lockdown on those.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
this is a solid strat, however the big problem is carapace. Before you cap your 2 + nodes, the alien team could have L3 carapace. The way to counter that is to have a few marines, or even a rambo, go in and take out some d chambers. 9/10 he's gonna die, but if you can bring down the carapace level to 2 or 1 (if yer lucky), then the gorge will have to spend resources on more d chambers, and not focus on getting RTs. Also after you hit their d chambers that they have to replace, have another group go after their RTs, this constant aggressiveness will buy the time to get the arms lab up and some upgrades.

Motion tracking is great for gorge hunting as well, because you can usually tell the gorges from the skulks because they move a lot slower, so by putting pressure on their gorge, and by either killing him or making him run, that too buys you time for your arms lab.

littlewild · February 2003

Getting rid of that first defense chamber is a big plus, it is almost as good as getting rid of the gorge that built it. However, marines tend to get contained within their base. With the weakened phase gate, marines don't really have that edge in mobility any more. To make a phase gate worth it, you better have turrects to protect it as well....

captmorgan · February 2003

I have been converted over to firewalker's point of view. If you have good marines, they dont need MT (although it helps), and if you have bad marines, it wont really help anyway, so it is somewhat worthless.

The problem with the whole arguement is the aliens upgrade much cheaper then the marines. Lvl3 cara costs 54 (14x3+2 to evolve) lvl 3 wep's (the counter to armor) costs 145, quite a disparity, huh? For the investment of lvl 3 weps for marines, the aliens in a cost comparison can get all 3 upgrades at lvl 3.

Firewater · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (captmorgan @ Feb 1 2003, 01:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I have been converted over to firewalker's point of view. If you have good marines, they dont need MT (although it helps), and if you have bad marines, it wont really help anyway, so it is somewhat worthless.

The problem with the whole arguement is the aliens upgrade much cheaper then the marines. Lvl3 cara costs 54 (14x3+2 to evolve) lvl 3 wep's (the counter to armor) costs 145, quite a disparity, huh? For the investment of lvl 3 weps for marines, the aliens in a cost comparison can get all 3 upgrades at lvl 3.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
My name is FireWater GET IT RIGHT! (i'm just playing around hehe)

I also find it ironic that a lot of people dont bother to research MT even though it has the properties of a wall hack, but in CS people use the wallhacks so much they forget how to play normally. I guess when it is easily available in game, cheating losing its incentive (no MT is not a cheat but it does function similarly to a wall hack as you can see people through the walls).

DizzyOne · February 2003

My build order is (but usualy I use different build orders dependin on the situation)
>1 ip
>armry
>obs
>res (depends on the map and situation)
>2 pg's
>arms

Eidal · February 2003

I disagree. I comm quite frequently on public servers (Gibgames, BlackOps) and I would never send a marine out to kill a DC. He would have to be knifing it, and the odds of him surviving long enough knows not only exactly where he is but that he has a knife out.... well, its pointless.

I'd rather my marines be A) Guarding base, B) Guarding hive, C) Guarding a chokepoint/nozzle.

Firewater · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Eidal @ Feb 1 2003, 02:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I disagree. I comm quite frequently on public servers (Gibgames, BlackOps) and I would never send a marine out to kill a DC. He would have to be knifing it, and the odds of him surviving long enough knows not only exactly where he is but that he has a knife out.... well, its pointless.

I'd rather my marines be A) Guarding base, B) Guarding hive, C) Guarding a chokepoint/nozzle.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
who said anything about knifing it all the way? Use yer LMG, the pistol, then knife, it will die in no time at all.

Ben128 · February 2003

Yah..that first DC they lose...as with anything your team losses early game, is a huge hit to you. That will be a disadvantage that will need some serious making up.

BlackPanther · February 2003

#1- 2IP
#2- Armory
#3- Observatory
#4- Closest RT
#5- Motion tracking

After that, it all depends on the map.

Phase gates if it's hera or eclipse or nothing or Bast
RTs if its Nancy or Caged

Tomodachi · February 2003

Well considering I haven't commanded since 1.02, my build strategy for 1.04 is:

2 IP
Armory
Arms Lab + Lv 1 Weapons

My reasons, marines use guns so it's sort of common idea to upgrade weapons dmg. One of the reasons is so it can counter alien's carapace; aliens get D chambers so I just counter their defense with offense. Next, it upgrades turrets and all marine weapons dmg, a bonus. If a Skulk surprises a marine or gets within biting range then it’s usually over; not considering the marines evasive maneuvers. Another reason is that it just doesn't sound right to get Lv 1 armor when aliens get D chambers. You don't counter defense with defense. I'm basing this on how logical it sounds and including both newbies and expert players.

KMO · February 2003

Level 1 armour is better than it sounds, for the simple reason that a basic marine is only barely killed by 2 skulk bites. The 10% armour increase thus manages to boost a marines survivability from 2 skulk bites to 3. That's a 50% effective improvement! 10% weapon damage increase is not so drastic.

captmorgan · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KMO @ Feb 1 2003, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Level 1 armour is better than it sounds, for the simple reason that a basic marine is only barely killed by 2 skulk bites. The 10% armour increase thus manages to boost a marines survivability from 2 skulk bites to 3. That's a 50% effective improvement! 10% weapon damage increase is not so drastic.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I respectfully disagree..

First off, my apologies to firewater, my bad..

Back to topic now:

Wep's is better then armor in most circumstances, allow me to explain why. 19/20 times, aliens get DC's first, right? Now if you follow the logic that even with cara, if the aliens must close a distance, the marines have an advantage while still at the skulk/lmg stage. I would rather counter the CARA, making it useless to them then try and upgrade my armor to match them. you dont make your tank have more armor because theirs does, you make your weapon penetrate the armor better. (to use a army example) The same hold's true here as well. 9/10 times, if the alien uses stealth to close the distance, bringing him within melee range, he is going to kill 1 marine whether it takes 2 bite's or 3. Why not make your bullets negate their armor advantage, since them being in so close will negate your armor damage. That means aliens who attempt to use cara to help them close a distance to get in melee range, now do not have that advantage.

Lvl 3 cara vs. lvl 1 armor is still firmly in the skulks advantage, why not try and dilute that armor advantage with a weapons upgrade? lvl 1 wep's with a shotty makes that 52 spent on lvl 3 cara only good for healing things, the armor upgrade the aliens get is meaningless vs. that combo..

While I admit there are times when I feel my marines need that extra little boost that MT gives to get over the hump, if I have the choice, I give them lvl 1 wep's, then lvl 1 armor, then the MT.. Now when you get to the gren launcher stage, MT is a nice help to him, makes his shots much more usefull..

Renmauzo · February 2003

Always motion tracker for me before I even lay down armor lab.. MT is simpily too important for early game to counter mass skulk rushes. Also your marines are much better prepared against skulks hiding around corner. Then arm's lab of course.. typically I prefer marine just secure 1 hive and then try to get some res nodes (unless I know my team is really reallly good and they seem to be able to hold off wave after wave of skulk rush toghter.. then I'll let them secure 2nd hive IF THEY CHOOSE TO!).. Generally speaking I do not ask them to go straight into second hive.. I'll slowly build close to it and siege it instead.. (or siege their first hive).

Oh yeah.. and unlike most other comm's tendency.. I usually go for weapon upgrade first before armor upgrade.. The thing is even with high armor.. If the marine ran out of ammo and had to reload when facing skulks, they are equally screwed/dead anyway. This is especiallly true in most pub servers when player's get high pings.. So if you give them more powerful ammos, they can waste those skulks before they even come close.. But for this to work you gotta research motion tracker first of course.

littlewild · February 2003

Hmm MT doesn't seem to help much once level 3 cara is in. It is hard to land 19 shots on a lvl 3 cara skulk even if you have motion tracking. Maybe I should try weapon lvl 1 to negate the effect of cara. Then again, phase gates are pretty important as well. However, I feel phase gates get wasted so fast before any one can react. Beef up the hp a bit and keep the current cost?

Archzai · February 2003

yo SYN Firewater... wut servers do u normally play on? cuz i saw u once only and never got to play wif u again

blech

well nywayz... im trying to learn my comm skillz.. im starting to find comm getting boring and frustrating because my team never listens...

well nywayz... so i take the role as field commander... helping the COMM do his job, teling him where we need to fix things up, i like taht role more... cuz im in the action and still doing the job.. but sadly it gets so bad sometimes that i end up doing both roles.... fighting and telling the comm wut to do... he bascially becomes my pawn -.- thats when the game is frustrating...

rite now

i think 1 ip
1 armory
and 1 obs is best

and to cap nodes.....

EDIT: true.... MT is VERY important to an early game... sometimes even makes the difference of a win or loss...

something i wish most marines would learn is: <b>CHECK THOSE CIELINGS and LEDGES</b> i think almost 80% of NS players including me come from a gaming background where enemies dont cling on ceilings.... thats why its hard to adapt.. but ive learnt... and many ppl sometiems think i hack... ie.. on caged.. a lot of skulks hang on the cielings to parasite.... i normally turn on my flash light to make it easier to see them and kill up to 3 skulks sittinga nd waiting rite outside the entrace... especially on ns_nancy.. with the high ceilings....

captmorgan i find ur argument quite viable.. infact.. has a lot of sense... sadly tho... a lot of marines fail to AIM properly therefore ur weapons upgrade has less use as opposed to them lasting longer so they can fire off their shots...

wuts funny tho is when u first get MT... its shocking to see all those circles :o haha

Firewater · February 2003

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captmorgan · February 2003

If they aim poorly, MT wont help/hurt anymore then a weapons upgrade will.

V_MAN · February 2003

I have 2 build orders one for public server games and one for clan matches

Pub game:
IPx2
Armoury
TF
Sentryx2-3

Clan Match:
IPx2
Armoury
Obs tower
Phase gate
Mines (how many depends on map)

Gargamel · February 2003

MT on veteran hands is AWESOME, Man!
I was Skulking around in a game only to get killed before i saw the bullets!
This **** me so off! And the funny part: I thought something was stinking, you know.
Its couldnt be true! But then again, I remembered they might have a rational Comm... and a rational Comm researches MT... so ... I ... kept dying <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

taboofires · February 2003

MT helps you keep your res nodes. One set of marines (or just one marine) can cover 2 or 3 nodes with motion tracking, because he can tell when one of them will be under attack without being in the room. I'd rather go MT first and cap and keep an extra nozzle or 2.

slappyjones · February 2003

My 2 cents:

2 IP
1 ARMORY
1 OBS
1 PHASE
1RP (on the way to first empty hive)
1 PHASE (at empty hive)
1 RP (at hive)
1 RP (on the way to second empty hive)
1 PHASE (at empty hive)
...we win!

-FC <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

1.04 Marine Build Order

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