In Your Experiences With New Cloaking...

xioutlawix · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">How likely is the enclosed scenario...</div> Was playing a game where (amazingly, hurrah!) sensory chamber was the first chamber we put up.

I went for the cloaking, and was right outside the marine base in a dark corner.

One particular player, rounds the corner, and immediately shoots me down.

"...okay" I think.

I respawn, go cloak again, and hide up on an overhang on a wall.
Same guy enters the room through a low doorway, I'm completely still, turns, and shoots the hell outta me.

In your experiences as marines, is it really so easy to pick out a cloaked skulk, or should I suspect foul play?
To give you some background info, I forget the name of the map (nancy maybe?), but it was the one with the port engine, subspace, and unnamed hive. That's how dark this map was <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

I've had that scenario. A guy managed to keep hitting me as I leapt by his face and into a dark corridor where I then cloaked.

He is obviously using Aimbot/Motion Tracking bot (wallhack but it looks like Motion Tracking)

I've spawned next to a cloaked skulk. In the light they are hard to pick out, in the dark would be next to impossible

Madjai · February 2003

its not hard if you stare at the alien for a few seconds, you can see his idle animations. but with skulks hiding in dark corners and marine just shooting at you after he comes around a corner, the only thing i could think of is he had motion tracking.

sekdar · February 2003

if he increased his gamma, or was using his flashlight, he could spot you easily.

if he had motion tracking, you were dead to begin with.

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

You people forget, if you stay still motion tracking stops following you.

and I have my gamma turned all the way up, my bright/contrast at 100%...and I still can't see ****. I swear, my monitor grows darker by the day.

Plus, if it's cloaking in a bright open spot (ns_tanith spawn room comes to mind) it's easier (still not easy) to see then in pitch dark.

xioutlawix · February 2003

The game had just begun, I have my doubts about the marines having had motion tracking. Plus, I had been still long enough beforehand not to be "dead from the start"

tseepra · February 2003

He could have had motion tracking from the start =/ I sometimes as a comm get motion tracking first because it keepa my marines alive... But it could also be luck...

Draxo · February 2003

similar thing happened to me yesterday.. twice.

I suspect foul play, i was still and watching for marines to come from the base in bast, i was perfectly cloaked, hadnt moved in about 20 seconds, not even to turn around, and then a marine turned the corner and shot at me in the blink of an eye.

Can motion tracking pick up an unmoving skulk? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

Motion tracking stops following after 3 seconds. and I doubt any marines can keep their weapon trained on the spot where the MT stopped following while still moving to engage.

Zenn · February 2003

I've seen lots of crazy autoaiming lately. Which is really a shame, but no one chooses to play on the CD-Req servers, so I guess we have to deal with them.

In my experience, Sensory chambers are about 150% useless. Cloak doesn't do jack. Sense of Fear is...ehhhh. And Enhanced Sight is just horrible, I can't stand it. The only useful thing about a sensory tower is cloaking the other nearby towers. There is honestly no good reason anyone can give the fight the D/M/S order. Even if you made sensory something people would actually want (I never even pick one, takes like 2 seconds longer for me to get into the fight, lol) they'd still always go D/M/S. Defence is just too important to not be first, and Movement has Adrenaline, which is crazy deadly with Fades. Unless Sensory got changed to give godmode, unlimited shots, AND instant Onos transform, it'll never be anything but last on the list. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

When I read something like the post above, I feel sad.

Skulks are not designed to be a killing machine. Their name is skulk. They hide in the darkness, they hide in the corners, they cloak outside your base. With cloaking I've seen 1 skulk take out 16 marines only taking 30 damage. He managed to single-handedly eliminate marine expansion. Carapace is good, but it doesn't do jack to keep you alive longer then 1-2 seconds. With cloak you can wait behind the marines and chomp them when they least suspect it.

xioutlawix · February 2003

Smoke, I feel your pain. Its worthless to go ahead and argue the point with people who know nothing other than D>M>S, they're like religious zealots, they know not why they have to argue their point, nor do they hear reasons as to why they should, they only know they have to argue it to the death, because they've ingrained it as a part of themselves, and anyone who goes against the standard order goes against them.

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

I personally use S->D->M or some variation of that.

Very fun to sit cloaked outside the nme base.

Windelkron · February 2003

if there was an observatory in the marine base, it would have decloaked you. that's a thing that the obs does: decloaks all aliens in a certain radius...

sometimes motion tracking is bugged too. I remember playing as a marine and a skulk was hiding in the rafters above me, unmoving. the motion tracking circle showed around him anyway and I killed him, and I felt really bad about it.

Zenn · February 2003

Well, its not just the carapace, I personally always use regen, but thats just me. But the Defence Towers themselfs are just too important (aka, healing OCs) to not go up first. Movement goes up second for Fade's adrenalin which is also very important. That just always leaves sensory for last, and if you have 3 hives, the game is over so you don't need'em by then anyway.

Personally I've never been able to do much with a skulk. If some people can use'em good, so be it, good job, but I'm LUCKY to get a kill with one, it seems like I bite and chop on them for hours on end and they just don't die...yet 1 bullet tends to kill me. Cloaking for me is just useless, especially with all the autoaiming going on lately.

virus · February 2003

Somehow ur right smoke, but sadly it dosent fit NS gameplay.
Sens is great for hide n'strike gameplay, but when it comes down to killing marine outposts and fighting em back, cloaking just wont do it. And killing marine outpostes is what makes the difference between losing aliens and winning ones, its just to risky relying on cloaking and hoping, that the marines wont get any crucial outpost online.

Gwahir · February 2003

also, anything within a certain range of an observatory shows up on motion tracking, still or not. good example: caged, structures in the vent behind base.

Zenn · February 2003

Ahhh, so the observatory has extra powers. Another reason to stick with D/M/S, lol.

TheGlow · February 2003

From what I know the observatory does nullify cloakng within a certain range, like on caged, I couldnt be cloaked in the vent, and on some of the outer area.
But as for the cloaking in general, I say it gets my seal of approval because I was on nothing, and you know the room with the node next to marine start? I stood next to 2 turrets and there was a marine next to them, and I kept parasiting him. As soon as id fire, id disappear nearly instantly. And I kept this up for about 1-2mins and another marine came. and I shot him some. And they both walked exactly where I stood and ran around me because I blocked them. I turned and shot some more. After a bit I grew tired, marines left and I died on the turrets taking them down.
Another instance I ran from a marine turned a corner and stopped in the middle. He turned and seen I couldnt have cleared the tunnel, so he shot madly all over. A few rounds hit me, he then targeted me. I assume he saw blood squirt out or some such.

matso · February 2003

While sensory can be really fun to play, noone should have any illusions as to its power compared to defense. As has been recounted hundreds of times, the problem with sensory is

1. MT negates 99% of the effect of cloaking.
2. Sensory has ZERO usefullness when the aliens need to crack marine defenses.
3. The sensory chambers themselves are of extremly limited usefulness.

Personally, I'd like to see sensory chambers negate MT in a very wide radius (point#1), the addition of a "blur" upgrade which has a 30-50% chance of making any shot miss (point #2), and increasing the range at which a sensory chamber places marines on the hive sight as well as cloaking nearby chambers/aliens (point #3). Maybe negating scanner sweeps, just to force the marines to sight the siege cannons manually.

Oh, and nerf lvl 3 carapace some as well. It's just a bit too good.

Draeger · February 2003

A lot of people have been asking what it would take to make sensory useful lately.

The biggest problem with S as you say, is that its a defensive-minded skill; you have to hide and attack, you can't assault a phase-base with it.

So here's my proposal:

Let cloaking persist while you're moving. Ideally staying at 100%, or perhaps if thats too powerful, knock it down by 1 level while moving (so a 1-tower cloak drops when moving, a 2-tower cloak goes to lv1 when moving, etc)

This would not only make sensory very powerful, but it would allow aliens to assault marine expansions with sensory perhaps even better than they can with carapace. IE, what usually happens is the marines post a couple sharpshooters at the ends of long hallways leading to their expansion, and unless you attack with 5+ skulks, you all end up dead before you can get to their base.

With a motion-able cloak, you could simply walk really slowly (to keep your noise down) up to said sharpshooter, and bite his **** <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>.

Of course, marines getting motion tracking nullifies this -- but this seems to me like a good rock'paper'scissors balance between motion track and sensory. As it is, cloak is fairly useless.

Fantasmo · February 2003

When I discover that the Alien's went sensory chamber first I start to <b>shoot</b> at all suspected hiding places when I enter a room or pass it in a junction/hallway. Normally when I pass popular hiding places I will shoot into them whether I see a skulk or not.

I see more and more marines do this now that people feel sensory first is more viable. Along with Motion Tracking this little tactic helps to nullify the affects of Cloak. I'd say from your post and all the people who claim to have had the same experience, it's working.

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

*Shrugs* This has been brought up plenty of times in the Sensory First Debate. Decent marines with Motion Tracking and an alert commander nullifies Cloak pretty effectively.

Dream · February 2003

Yeah but if you get carapace or even regen as first and the guy in front of you got autoaim it still pointless <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

Btw cloaking is very good <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> i played when we had sensory 1st.. after some dumb pplz saying : we are dead why in the **** you built that?! . we won the game without even loosing a oc... 1- Me and my friend were moving to key place for ambush and we didnt move ( bye MT ) and when our gorge was saving for hive he placed himself in unnoccupied hive and then stopped moving.. 5 marines passed by and builded a PG without seeing him.. we killed them and get our 2nd hive.. in a Clan match i say 100% go for the Dc.. but for god sake pub its to make fun not the have 100 kill with your carapace :|

Speed_2_Dave · February 2003

you guys are crazy. My team got creamed by a D>S alien team. They flattened us! When they finally got their cloaked fades up, walking down a hallway spelled doom for everyone.

The only way I can see the sensory chamber as useless is if you "hack" your game to make it easier to spot aliens (there are more ways than one.)

As for the chamber itself, perhaps making it have a MT range detecting marines and their structures would be a good idea, instead of a vocal warning, but I think they're plenty strong if you aren't awful at playing hide'n'go-seek. MT only helps if the marines are on the defensive.. If the marines are busy working on securing a 2nd hive, those cloaked muthas can camp anywhere and kill you (I can't keep track of 8 blips the whole time, personally, and a vanilla marine or two will still have trouble bringing a Carapaced fade down, unless they're maxed in the upgrades dept.)

Lose the hax, and the cloak is strong enough, with scent of fear assisting any clean-up crews.

matso · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zerglin @ Feb 2 2003, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1. MT negates 99% of the effect of cloaking.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No it doesn't. Motion tracking tracks motion while cloaking requires you to stay still. Complete opposites. It can only give you a clue to a cloaking skulk within the vicinity, otherwise, MT doesn't help you. The arguement that MT negates it by any large percent is laughable at best. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Really? Well, maybe I'm unique in being able to remember where the MT circle stopped and thus were the skulks are when I get there - I don't know. Perhaps I have an unusually long attention span. OTOH, it seems to me that considering the number of times I have been killed when sitting motionless and cloaked for 20+ seconds, I may, after all, not be unique.

In any case, the problem is that in order for cloaking to be useful when MT is up, you need to get to a point at least 30sec before the marines get there, and then wait, completly immobile. If the marines DON'T come .. you are just sitting there, wasting time. If you move to counter a marine movement, then they will know where you are thanks to MT, and they will hear the cloaking sound. Not all that easy to suprise a good marine then.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2. Sensory has ZERO usefullness when the aliens need to crack marine defenses.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It's called Scent of Fear. It helps taking down the weakest marines first.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well, ZERO might have been a strong word. Lets just call it so small, most people cannot see the difference between zero and whatever usefulness it has.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I find this most helpful when sniping as a lerk, but most people suck with lerk so I guess you could be right.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ever noticed just how much a lerk sucks when it doesn't have carapace? Dying 3 times faster really sucks (9 hits instead of 30).
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Sensory is primarily preemptive, except for Enhanced Hive Sight, which means that you're supposed to PREVENT any expansion.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yea, basically you bet that you can keep the marines contained until you can get a 2nd hive and defense chambers up.

Both SoF and EHS are "nice" abilities, but there is nothing solidly good about them. They are nothing compared to carapace.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>3. The sensory chambers themselves are of extremly limited usefulness.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The sensory gives the hive one more alert and that is "the enemy approachs" instead of "the hive is dying"
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You know the range of a sensory chamber? It's pretty damn short. If you place it in the hive, it's quite possible for the marines to kill the hive without ever being in range of it (Comp Core in eclipse comes to mind .. place the sensory underneath the hive, the marines can stay up by the res node without coming in range).

Of course, you could place it further out from the hive to give you warning .. but why not place an OC or block of the passage instead? Then the marines would have to fight it instead of just walking past it.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Anyway, all this arguing doesn't matter. Flayra already has plans on tweaking the alien upgrades.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yea, but he - and his testers - do scan these boards. Which is why arguing matters :-)

Zerglin · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1. MT negates 99% of the effect of cloaking.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No it doesn't. Motion tracking tracks motion while cloaking requires you to stay still. Complete opposites. It can only give you a clue to a cloaking skulk within the vicinity, otherwise, MT doesn't help you. The arguement that MT negates it by any large percent is laughable at best. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2. Sensory has ZERO usefullness when the aliens need to crack marine defenses.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
It's called Scent of Fear. It helps taking down the weakest marines first. I find this most helpful when sniping as a lerk, but most people suck with lerk so I guess you could be right. Sensory is primarily preemptive, except for Enhanced Hive Sight, which means that you're supposed to PREVENT any expansion.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>3. The sensory chambers themselves are of extremly limited usefulness.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
The sensory gives the hive one more alert and that is "the enemy approachs" instead of "the hive is dying" and automatically shows all marines nearby on hive sight showing the sensories preemptive nature. The idea to give sensories the ability to fire parasites would be way better by permanently tagging all marines that pass by or even extend the radius in which the sensory can see marines. The stacking, although now limited, healing ability of D chambers still is the #1 reason why D chambers go up first.

Anyway, all this arguing doesn't matter. Flayra already has plans on tweaking the alien upgrades.

parkan · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmokeNova @ Feb 2 2003, 03:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> When I read something like the post above, I feel sad.

Skulks are not designed to be a killing machine. Their name is skulk. They hide in the darkness, they hide in the corners, they cloak outside your base. With cloaking I've seen 1 skulk take out 16 marines only taking 30 damage. He managed to single-handedly eliminate marine expansion. Carapace is good, but it doesn't do jack to keep you alive longer then 1-2 seconds. With cloak you can wait behind the marines and chomp them when they least suspect it.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
16 marines? If NONE of them turned around and started firing when they heard the skulking noise (unless the alien had slience, which would be another story) they deserve to be called n00bs. Even very, very frantic fire from 16 marines at once will kill an uncarapaced skulk while he tries to overcome the hitbox detection mess and actually kill the rines.

Smoke_Nova · February 2003

I didn't say 16 marines at once. He was sitting near the marine base hiding in different spots. A pack of 3 marines would go by, they'd think he was on the other side of the elevator. They flip the switch then I hear *Medpack!* *chomp chomp* *chomp chomp* *chuckle* *chomp chomp*.

The elevator opens on my side to reveal 3 humans, freshly relieved of 170 life and armor.

Cloaking is all about psyching them out. If the marines have to worry about moving in packs because of the enclosed enviroments...leaves them open.

In Your Experiences With New Cloaking...

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