I would be happy with a STEADY 30fps. Guess I need two jobs to finally get some good fps. I find it kind of hard though to give up my house, pool, spa, two cars, one truck, etc... all for a good computer... I am kinda stuck. The way my finances are worked out, it's either this nice **** house/**** PC, or a stinky apartment with a bitchen PC... rofl... maybe when I get my taxes back... maybe...
Speaking of... I am running a pretty old computer... BUT I have an AMD XP1800+, Heatsink & Fan, and a new 350W PSU sitting here... that I can't use with my current motherboard. I got all this stuff on sale for a good price. Does anyone have a motherboard that they would like to get rid of? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Contrary though, to what you may think, I think that such major issues such as these shouldn't be effected by FPS, because for the most part it's not like this in other mods. BUT... I do think that if you wanna play, you gotta pay. If that's the way the game is, then OH WELL. Technology is where it's at these days. If you don't have it, you're suckin... like me... for now anyways...
<!--QuoteBegin--2of12[B0RG]+Feb 3 2003, 12:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2of12[B0RG] @ Feb 3 2003, 12:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...I can run half life at 1600x1200 and still get 100 FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Punk. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
guys, as for the whole "i'm richer than you hahahahahahahahaha l337 h4xxor money" that's not why this post was started.
I run at a capped 60 fps, you know why? Because I haven't bothered to turn off that silly thing that'll boost my fps up to 100. Making it server side would be interesting, forcing everyone to do their thing at the server computer's rate, but that would make the game (literally) different each time you play (whether you're at max players or not) or each location you play at.
If this isn't fixed or changed somehow by 1.1, I don't have to worry, I have an easy fix that'll put me up to par with everyone else who has 100 fps, but not everyone can. Plus that's like the q3w example, or was that quake one? Someone stated that if they used "proxies" they could own anyone who didn't, so all players who played regularly used "proxies" for the sole reason that it pwned all who didn't.
<!--QuoteBegin--2of12[B0RG]+Feb 3 2003, 01:17 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2of12[B0RG] @ Feb 3 2003, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Making everybody have the same FPS for the sake of the unfortunates is a really stupid idea if you ask me. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> word.
I think putting a cap is a good idea cause what 100 fps people get is an advantage not meant to be in the game. It changes the game, somewhat akin to a hack (not intentional, but still, it's an advantage that you shouldn't have). Either that or fix the the fps link =/
Oh LOOK! I won the lottery! I just won a hundredmillion dollars! Wait, whats that? Unfair that I've won? Your Taxing Me? How Much? 40 MILLION DOLLARS!?
It's plain stupid to limit the FPS, rather find a way to fix the build times, say, making it dependant on the server or lock the values in code. If you get 100 FPS, good for you, if you get 2 FPS, sorry buddy, but hell, this isnt a fix in the slightest, it's like damming a river to water your garden, it's stupid. A Genuine fix will probably be introduced in the next round of patches, till then, just like a siege turret, deal with it, get around it, or put up with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--[RHIT]Vassago+Feb 3 2003, 12:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([RHIT]Vassago @ Feb 3 2003, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, just did a couple of tests on this, at 100fps, 60fps, and 20fps.
Time to build an ip: 25.6sec@20, 7.09@60, 4.68@100
Time to fire a full hmg clip: 7.91@20, 7.92@60, 7.81@100
Time till Out of Jpac fuel: 6.37@20, 6.87@60, 6.72@100
With level 3 adrenaline: 61 heal sprays till I hit bottom energy@20, 40@60, 41@100
Time for fatty to run a set distance (wall to a post in one of the hives): 7.02@20, 7.11@60, 7.01@100
Interesting notes: At 20fps with the jetpack, you jump up pretty high, then land on the floor and don't go up again. at 60fps, you smack into the roof, but when you run out of fuel, you slowly settle back down to the floor at 100fps, when you run out of fuel, you continue to hover
I suspect that the reason for the longer amount of heal sprays at 20fps is because firing rate is in fact affected by fps. What I imagine is happening is that you can't fire again until the firing animation is finished. For the marine weapons, this animation is insanely short, and doesn't much matter. I checked the heal spray four times with the fatty.
I used a digital stopwatch to time, so minor variations are probably due to me hiting the button for stop or start at the right time.
Anyone think of anything else that should be checked, if not, interperet away :D <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The only test there that really shows anything is the IP building example, which is quite dramatic. In the firing and JP tests you're talking about differences so small you cannot really conclude anything. The changes in JP as fps increases are related to the amount of thrust you get per unit of fuel, not how long the fuel lasts or how quickly it regenerates.
Gorge heal spray as you said is likely to be related to firing rate, at 20fps the energy probably lasts the longest because the firing rate is abnormally slow. In my own tests, 20fps changes the firing rate of the LMG significantly allowing you to empty a clip much faster than at a usual framerate. I've not tested this with a HMG, but by looking at your HMG tests, heal spray tests and my LMG tests i'm guessing that the effect fps has on firing rate differs with the weapon. Suggesting it could be related to firing animations is proably a good call.
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 3 2003, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 3 2003, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I tested some things with a timer in sparky's.
ip build 40-60 fps 6.79 secs 30 fps way over 8, I got sent back to ready room before I even got halfway
time to empty lmg clip 40-60 fps 3.06 seconds 30 fps 3.68 seconds
time to empty hmg clip 40-60 fps 9.56 seconds 30 fps 10.36 seconds
I get really sorry fps, so if you extrapolate the fps settings to 30 vs 80-100, there would be a huge difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What is this sparky's you speak of? I'm a 100fps player and wouldnt mind doing some testing
People who have good graphics cards do have an advantage, they get better graphics. Thats what people are paying for when they buy a fancy card, not the ability to be able to build faster or jetpack better than everyone else. An FPS cap of 60 seems like a sensible idea to me especially since the difference cant actually be detected by the human eye, the only reason anyone would need 100 fps is to gain an unfair advantage. And yes it is unfair in the same way that raising your cpu clock (or whatever) gives you an advantage like speed hacking. I'm not calling people with 100 fps hackers because it isnt intentional but I do think it needs to be fixed.
Its the same **** scientific "facts" as back when people used to say the eye couldn't detect movement smoother than 24fps :)
Then we got better video cards.
In a good engine (Q3) i can ramp my system up to 200fps or more, and speaking personally, the difference is still noticable to me up to around the 110-120fps mark.
that 24 fps of the eye has nothing to do with the smoothness. It's simply the fact the eye can not send more than 24 frames per second to the brain. But the more fps you have in your comp the smoother the transition will be for each frame send to the brain. Which will make the game look smoother.
This basically means that, if someone puts in the effort to make a crack, NS will overtake CS as the cheater's paradise. What we already know for sure is tied to fps: - build speed - jetpack fuel - weapon firing speed - walk speed
Now, if we can get confirmation that weapon reload time and adrenaline are also dependent on fps, that is, all arranged client-side, that means that a good cracker could make a "patch" for NS that would (provided no server max rate is set up):
- allow people to jetpack indefinitely (OK, some already can do this) - build anything instantly - fire all five clips of the LMG at once (instant Onos killer with an unupgraded marine?) - have a continuous stream of acid rockets instead of firing a few and retreating to recharge (acid rocket machinegun) - allow you to move at very high speeds (though I believe the server anti-bunnyhop code already limits this to about 150% of normal speed?)
Perhaps the NS devs could comment on which of these are actually impossible with client-side cracking of NS?
Edit: small addition, I can't do much testing on this because I get about 30fps max with a P3 450 and TNT2.
<!--QuoteBegin--porp+Feb 3 2003, 12:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (porp @ Feb 3 2003, 12:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I dont know where you get your info, but more than 60 changes a minute can be definitely detected by the human eye.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 60 frames per <i>minute</i> is one frame per second. I've tried to play at 1 FPS, it's not at all enjoyable.
The difference between 60 FPS and 100 FPS is not detectable, 60 is where the human eye stops being able to tell the difference. If you can tell, you have a better eye than most, but people who get a steady 13 will kick your **** for complaining that you "only get 60". Who cares if you're capped at 60? That's still 5 times better than my maximum, it plays properly and you can see smooth motion rather than a slideshow.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What we already know for sure is tied to fps: - build speed - jetpack fuel - weapon firing speed - walk speed <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The information here does not suggest walk speed is tied to fps in any way. The travel times are all within 10ms of eachother, easily within the realm of human error when using a stopwatch (Which is how he timed it).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now, if we can get confirmation that weapon reload time and adrenaline are also dependent on fps <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'Confirmation'? so far no information even suggests this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that means that a good cracker could make a "patch" for NS that would (provided no server max rate is set up):
- allow people to jetpack indefinitely (OK, some already can do this) - build anything instantly - fire all five clips of the LMG at once (instant Onos killer with an unupgraded marine?) - have a continuous stream of acid rockets instead of firing a few and retreating to recharge (acid rocket machinegun) - allow you to move at very high speeds (though I believe the server anti-bunnyhop code already limits this to about 150% of normal speed?) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I should remind you that the quake engine physics (Of which HL is a bastardized version of) have always been effected by fps in some way. Q1 allowed you to RJ much higher if you had a high framerate, Q3 allows you to jump higher and further if you hit fps 'sweet spots'. But none of this has ever been singificantly exploited in the way you suggest. The only major problem i can recall from any quake game was a Q2 issue which allowed someone to perform an extremely high leap straight up, i believe this was quickly patched.
The differring physics in Q3 are related to rounding errors, when making calculations values are frequently rounded up or down, and at certain framerates you can create multiple large 'round ups' in calculation which result in your jump height or distance being higher than normal. It is likely that the problem plauging HL is similar. But you do not see Q3 hacks to make you leap 50 foot in the air or run at a thousand miles an hour. Any effect the framerate can have on Q3 physics is slight at best, so the suggestion that players will be instantly unloading 5 clips of LMG is really jumping to conclusions.
Anyone can jetpack indefinately in NS anyway without altering anything, as you can hover forever on the default fps cap. The speed limiter (for hopping) triggers when you move at 170% of base speed, and has the effect of dropping you down to base speed when you touch the floor.
There are speed hacks and similar for HL and its mods, but these sort of hacks can not be found in quake games. As HL's fps dependant physics are ripped somewhat from quake, and the quake series is not plauged by these sort of hacks, The likelyhood is that these hacks are taking advantage of some other aspect of the game. Then again, im not a programmer, perhaps flayra can shed some light on the issue.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The difference between 60 FPS and 100 FPS is not detectable <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd wager the majority of people who actually get those framerates would disagree with you, including me. As you say you get a maximum of 13.... you aren't exactly speaking from experience are you?
I've played games at 13fps, back when Q3Test was first released i was stuck on a lowly P200winchip. It isn't nice and i wouldn't go back.
I've also played at 60fps, after a few system upgrades this was a pretty standard framerate for me, i thought it was playable. After getting 100+, i wouldn't go back.
I can load up a game i haven't played for some time and immediately notice the choppy update of a config which still caps my fps at 60. The term "smooth" is relative. A DVD looks smooth, untill you watch it running at 3 times the framerate for a few seconds and then switch back to 1x speed. 60fps looks smooth, untill you've played in better. Being stuck at 13fps is a sorry state of affairs and i feel your pain, but you get a system capable of 100+ for a week and see if you like going back to 60.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 60 is where the human eye stops being able to tell the difference. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then i guess i have a clan full of people with super-human eyesight....
Good, so walk speed may not be wrong. My suspicion on reload and adrenaline comes from the fact that they are timed actions, which puts them into the potentially affected category. Additionally, adrenaline seems to work similar to jetpack fuel. I know that, when I have an irregular framerate, the adrenaline counter doesn't increase smoothly but goes in jumps with no increase between such jumps.
Rounding errors may explain this, which would make the accidental use not so extreme (though still annoying) but if this happens clientside with no max rate on the server, a malicious exploit would still be possible. Even if there is a max rate, the exploit could still put you right on that rate, and give an advantage even compared to an 100fps player. Are there max rates in the server? Well, I'm not on the NS team, so I guess we'll need someone else to enlighten us.
The issue with jetpacks is not to do with timing or regeneration rates, a 100fps jetpacker has about the same duration's worth of fuel, and the same regeneration rate of fuel as a 20fps jetpacker.
The difference is how much lift the 100fps jetpacker gets from a brief burst of fuel. Tapping the jump button at 100fps will send you up in the air, or counter a quite quick fall. Meaning a 100fps jetpacker can tap the jump button about twice every 3 seconds and stay afloat. The jetpack fuel regenerates quickly so the small tap worth of fuel he uses is immediately replaced. A 20fps jetpacker can tap in exactly the same way, and have the fuel regenerate just as quickly, but the amount of lift they get from this tapping will barely lift them off the floor, let alone keep them in the air.
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 3 2003, 08:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 3 2003, 08:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... What method did you use to time that? I used alias +timeshoot "+attack;bstarttimer" alias -timeshoot "-attack;bstarttimer"
There should be a much bigger difference between your 20fps and 100. ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I used a stopwatch and hitting buttons at the same time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> After classes today I will set up some aliases to do it with timers, didn't know they were in there.
Capping fps to 60 or even 72 is a bad solution. I didn't pay the money I paid for my system to run HL at 60fps. Actually I paid for it to play UT2k3 at 100fps, but for some reason I keep coming back to the HL engine. So I just run 1600x1200 with 2xAA and 4xAniso at 100fps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The problem is probably tied to animations, if you have say a 5 frame animation, and you can (fire, build, whatever) again as soon as you are done with that animation, then obviously higher fps means faster (fire, build, whatever). It shouldn't be too hard to make sure that a certain time has elapsed since the last time the animation started. I've done something similar in a real time voice comm program I made, so I know it can be done in C. That would be the best solution, so I can still run at 100fps but not have an advantage over people running at 60 (or less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
As to the whole, not being able to see the difference argument. 24fps is what movies and television use because they are analog display devices. You can actually see one frame sliding down to replace the other. Granted it's too fast for you to conciously recognize, but it does give you the illusion of fluidity.
On the digital monitor it is different, because each frame is simply replaced by others, no smoothing. It actually varies by individual how many digital fps you can see, so trying to put a hard number on it is ridiculous. Nope, the biggest factor on your monitor is refresh rate. If your fps is higher than your refresh rate, your card is drawing faster than your monitor, and it ends up drawing the first half of one frame, and the second half of another. Which may be why people say they can tell the difference up to 120 or 150 (where fps is a multiple of refresh rate, and the tearing gets lost because the card is twice as fast as the monitor.) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I knew that stupid class (Mechanics of Human Vision) would come in handy!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--[RHIT]Vassago+Feb 3 2003, 10:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([RHIT]Vassago @ Feb 3 2003, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Which may be why people say they can tell the difference up to 120 or 150 (where fps is a multiple of refresh rate, and the tearing gets lost because the card is twice as fast as the monitor.) :p <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If 120fps is a multiple of your refreshrate, you need a better monitor :)
<!--QuoteBegin--[RHIT]Vassago+Feb 3 2003, 12:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([RHIT]Vassago @ Feb 3 2003, 12:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->... Time to build an ip: 25.6sec@20, 7.09@60, 4.68@100
Time to fire a full hmg clip: 7.91@20, 7.92@60, 7.81@100
Time till Out of Jpac fuel: 6.37@20, 6.87@60, 6.72@100
With level 3 adrenaline: 61 heal sprays till I hit bottom energy@20, 40@60, 41@100
Time for fatty to run a set distance (wall to a post in one of the hives): 7.02@20, 7.11@60, 7.01@100 ...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, ran a few more tests today...
LMG fire times: 2.6@20, 4.25@25, 3.15@60, 3.03@72, 2.97@100
GL Reload times were all within a tenth of a second.
This time I checked five times and took averages of the times. I did check more with adrenaline, and didn't notice any changes.
First I would like to point out that 20 is the lowest you can set half-life to, and is the lowest number I can check on this machine. No options I set will get less than 20fps. Obviously something weird happens to times at 20, probably some sort of boundary check...but I dunno.
For the HMG both 25 and 72 exhibited strange behavior. For the first 20 bullets or so, the display for bullets left seemed to bounce, it would go from 130-115-128-114-127 etc. Until it got below about 115 then it counted down normally. Don't know what is up with that, perhaps it is similar to certain fps giving you MUCH higher jumps in quake2.
Other than that, for the most part frame rate really doesn't make a HUGE difference EXCEPT in build times. I doubt it is enough of a problem to warrant the amount of coding it would take to fix (which is probably why no one has done it, since this problem has been around for a LONG time)
I dont know why people think these things are tied to the FPS of the client.
The building Defense chambers, making buildings, and other things are tied on the server, usally to pev->nextthink
The defense chamber heals once every 500ms, if i change the nextthink on it to 0.25 (250ms) it will think 2 times faster and heal 2 times faster. I believe it just appears to "seem" faster but its really not any faster.
How exactly do you raise your FPS more than 60 in NS? I tried raising it using the console but the command fps_max doesnt seem to do anything. Im still floating at 60. I tried running it at the lowest resolution, but still nothing and I would like to see If there was a visible difference between 60-100. Im measuring my fps using the cl_showfps 1 command.
As for the question at hand, I would'nt be opposed to an fps cap, if the link between fps and the game was confirmed by the devs. Just because you happen to be wealthier or are able to spend more in the hobby doesnt mean they should have an advantage over other players.
(In a perfect world we would all have 0 ping) -BillsterJ
Comments
Speaking of... I am running a pretty old computer... BUT I have an AMD XP1800+, Heatsink & Fan, and a new 350W PSU sitting here... that I can't use with my current motherboard. I got all this stuff on sale for a good price. Does anyone have a motherboard that they would like to get rid of? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Punk. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
lol, j/k
I run at a capped 60 fps, you know why? Because I haven't bothered to turn off that silly thing that'll boost my fps up to 100. Making it server side would be interesting, forcing everyone to do their thing at the server computer's rate, but that would make the game (literally) different each time you play (whether you're at max players or not) or each location you play at.
If this isn't fixed or changed somehow by 1.1, I don't have to worry, I have an easy fix that'll put me up to par with everyone else who has 100 fps, but not everyone can. Plus that's like the q3w example, or was that quake one? Someone stated that if they used "proxies" they could own anyone who didn't, so all players who played regularly used "proxies" for the sole reason that it pwned all who didn't.
That's my .02
[edit] caught a typo [/edit]
Q2 Lithium and Rail was the shiznit...
Q3 ... bleh.
word.
It's plain stupid to limit the FPS, rather find a way to fix the build times, say, making it dependant on the server or lock the values in code. If you get 100 FPS, good for you, if you get 2 FPS, sorry buddy, but hell, this isnt a fix in the slightest, it's like damming a river to water your garden, it's stupid. A Genuine fix will probably be introduced in the next round of patches, till then, just like a siege turret, deal with it, get around it, or put up with it.
Time to build an ip: 25.6sec@20, 7.09@60, 4.68@100
Time to fire a full hmg clip: 7.91@20, 7.92@60, 7.81@100
Time till Out of Jpac fuel: 6.37@20, 6.87@60, 6.72@100
With level 3 adrenaline: 61 heal sprays till I hit bottom energy@20, 40@60, 41@100
Time for fatty to run a set distance (wall to a post in one of the hives): 7.02@20, 7.11@60, 7.01@100
Interesting notes: At 20fps with the jetpack, you jump up pretty high, then land on the floor and don't go up again.
at 60fps, you smack into the roof, but when you run out of fuel, you slowly settle back down to the floor
at 100fps, when you run out of fuel, you continue to hover
I suspect that the reason for the longer amount of heal sprays at 20fps is because firing rate is in fact affected by fps. What I imagine is happening is that you can't fire again until the firing animation is finished. For the marine weapons, this animation is insanely short, and doesn't much matter. I checked the heal spray four times with the fatty.
I used a digital stopwatch to time, so minor variations are probably due to me hiting the button for stop or start at the right time.
Anyone think of anything else that should be checked, if not, interperet away :D <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only test there that really shows anything is the IP building example, which is quite dramatic. In the firing and JP tests you're talking about differences so small you cannot really conclude anything. The changes in JP as fps increases are related to the amount of thrust you get per unit of fuel, not how long the fuel lasts or how quickly it regenerates.
Gorge heal spray as you said is likely to be related to firing rate, at 20fps the energy probably lasts the longest because the firing rate is abnormally slow. In my own tests, 20fps changes the firing rate of the LMG significantly allowing you to empty a clip much faster than at a usual framerate. I've not tested this with a HMG, but by looking at your HMG tests, heal spray tests and my LMG tests i'm guessing that the effect fps has on firing rate differs with the weapon. Suggesting it could be related to firing animations is proably a good call.
ip build
40-60 fps 6.79 secs
30 fps way over 8, I got sent back to ready room before I even got halfway
time to empty lmg clip
40-60 fps 3.06 seconds
30 fps 3.68 seconds
time to empty hmg clip
40-60 fps 9.56 seconds
30 fps 10.36 seconds
I get really sorry fps, so if you extrapolate the fps settings to 30 vs 80-100, there would be a huge difference. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is this sparky's you speak of? I'm a 100fps player and wouldnt mind doing some testing
Then we got better video cards.
In a good engine (Q3) i can ramp my system up to 200fps or more, and speaking personally, the difference is still noticable to me up to around the 110-120fps mark.
It's simply the fact the eye can not send more than 24 frames per second to the brain.
But the more fps you have in your comp the smoother the transition will be for each frame send to the brain.
Which will make the game look smoother.
What method did you use to time that?
I used
alias +timeshoot "+attack;bstarttimer"
alias -timeshoot "-attack;bstarttimer"
There should be a much bigger difference between your 20fps and 100.
Even though I get 60 in NS at most, I wouldn't want people to be drug down to my level. That's just being lazy in trying to fix the game.
- build speed
- jetpack fuel
- weapon firing speed
- walk speed
Now, if we can get confirmation that weapon reload time and adrenaline are also dependent on fps, that is, all arranged client-side, that means that a good cracker could make a "patch" for NS that would (provided no server max rate is set up):
- allow people to jetpack indefinitely (OK, some already can do this)
- build anything instantly
- fire all five clips of the LMG at once (instant Onos killer with an unupgraded marine?)
- have a continuous stream of acid rockets instead of firing a few and retreating to recharge (acid rocket machinegun)
- allow you to move at very high speeds (though I believe the server anti-bunnyhop code already limits this to about 150% of normal speed?)
Perhaps the NS devs could comment on which of these are actually impossible with client-side cracking of NS?
Edit: small addition, I can't do much testing on this because I get about 30fps max with a P3 450 and TNT2.
60 frames per <i>minute</i> is one frame per second. I've tried to play at 1 FPS, it's not at all enjoyable.
The difference between 60 FPS and 100 FPS is not detectable, 60 is where the human eye stops being able to tell the difference. If you can tell, you have a better eye than most, but people who get a steady 13 will kick your **** for complaining that you "only get 60". Who cares if you're capped at 60? That's still 5 times better than my maximum, it plays properly and you can see smooth motion rather than a slideshow.
What we already know for sure is tied to fps:
- build speed
- jetpack fuel
- weapon firing speed
- walk speed
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The information here does not suggest walk speed is tied to fps in any way. The travel times are all within 10ms of eachother, easily within the realm of human error when using a stopwatch (Which is how he timed it).
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Now, if we can get confirmation that weapon reload time and adrenaline are also dependent on fps
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'Confirmation'? so far no information even suggests this.
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that means that a good cracker could make a "patch" for NS that would (provided no server max rate is set up):
- allow people to jetpack indefinitely (OK, some already can do this)
- build anything instantly
- fire all five clips of the LMG at once (instant Onos killer with an unupgraded marine?)
- have a continuous stream of acid rockets instead of firing a few and retreating to recharge (acid rocket machinegun)
- allow you to move at very high speeds (though I believe the server anti-bunnyhop code already limits this to about 150% of normal speed?)
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I should remind you that the quake engine physics (Of which HL is a bastardized version of) have always been effected by fps in some way. Q1 allowed you to RJ much higher if you had a high framerate, Q3 allows you to jump higher and further if you hit fps 'sweet spots'. But none of this has ever been singificantly exploited in the way you suggest. The only major problem i can recall from any quake game was a Q2 issue which allowed someone to perform an extremely high leap straight up, i believe this was quickly patched.
The differring physics in Q3 are related to rounding errors, when making calculations values are frequently rounded up or down, and at certain framerates you can create multiple large 'round ups' in calculation which result in your jump height or distance being higher than normal. It is likely that the problem plauging HL is similar. But you do not see Q3 hacks to make you leap 50 foot in the air or run at a thousand miles an hour. Any effect the framerate can have on Q3 physics is slight at best, so the suggestion that players will be instantly unloading 5 clips of LMG is really jumping to conclusions.
Anyone can jetpack indefinately in NS anyway without altering anything, as you can hover forever on the default fps cap. The speed limiter (for hopping) triggers when you move at 170% of base speed, and has the effect of dropping you down to base speed when you touch the floor.
There are speed hacks and similar for HL and its mods, but these sort of hacks can not be found in quake games. As HL's fps dependant physics are ripped somewhat from quake, and the quake series is not plauged by these sort of hacks, The likelyhood is that these hacks are taking advantage of some other aspect of the game. Then again, im not a programmer, perhaps flayra can shed some light on the issue.
The difference between 60 FPS and 100 FPS is not detectable
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I'd wager the majority of people who actually get those framerates would disagree with you, including me. As you say you get a maximum of 13.... you aren't exactly speaking from experience are you?
I've played games at 13fps, back when Q3Test was first released i was stuck on a lowly P200winchip. It isn't nice and i wouldn't go back.
I've also played at 60fps, after a few system upgrades this was a pretty standard framerate for me, i thought it was playable. After getting 100+, i wouldn't go back.
I can load up a game i haven't played for some time and immediately notice the choppy update of a config which still caps my fps at 60. The term "smooth" is relative. A DVD looks smooth, untill you watch it running at 3 times the framerate for a few seconds and then switch back to 1x speed. 60fps looks smooth, untill you've played in better. Being stuck at 13fps is a sorry state of affairs and i feel your pain, but you get a system capable of 100+ for a week and see if you like going back to 60.
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60 is where the human eye stops being able to tell the difference.
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Then i guess i have a clan full of people with super-human eyesight....
Rounding errors may explain this, which would make the accidental use not so extreme (though still annoying) but if this happens clientside with no max rate on the server, a malicious exploit would still be possible. Even if there is a max rate, the exploit could still put you right on that rate, and give an advantage even compared to an 100fps player. Are there max rates in the server? Well, I'm not on the NS team, so I guess we'll need someone else to enlighten us.
The difference is how much lift the 100fps jetpacker gets from a brief burst of fuel. Tapping the jump button at 100fps will send you up in the air, or counter a quite quick fall. Meaning a 100fps jetpacker can tap the jump button about twice every 3 seconds and stay afloat. The jetpack fuel regenerates quickly so the small tap worth of fuel he uses is immediately replaced. A 20fps jetpacker can tap in exactly the same way, and have the fuel regenerate just as quickly, but the amount of lift they get from this tapping will barely lift them off the floor, let alone keep them in the air.
What method did you use to time that?
I used
alias +timeshoot "+attack;bstarttimer"
alias -timeshoot "-attack;bstarttimer"
There should be a much bigger difference between your 20fps and 100.
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I used a stopwatch and hitting buttons at the same time <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> After classes today I will set up some aliases to do it with timers, didn't know they were in there.
Capping fps to 60 or even 72 is a bad solution. I didn't pay the money I paid for my system to run HL at 60fps. Actually I paid for it to play UT2k3 at 100fps, but for some reason I keep coming back to the HL engine. So I just run 1600x1200 with 2xAA and 4xAniso at 100fps <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> The problem is probably tied to animations, if you have say a 5 frame animation, and you can (fire, build, whatever) again as soon as you are done with that animation, then obviously higher fps means faster (fire, build, whatever). It shouldn't be too hard to make sure that a certain time has elapsed since the last time the animation started. I've done something similar in a real time voice comm program I made, so I know it can be done in C. That would be the best solution, so I can still run at 100fps but not have an advantage over people running at 60 (or less <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
On the digital monitor it is different, because each frame is simply replaced by others, no smoothing. It actually varies by individual how many digital fps you can see, so trying to put a hard number on it is ridiculous. Nope, the biggest factor on your monitor is refresh rate. If your fps is higher than your refresh rate, your card is drawing faster than your monitor, and it ends up drawing the first half of one frame, and the second half of another. Which may be why people say they can tell the difference up to 120 or 150 (where fps is a multiple of refresh rate, and the tearing gets lost because the card is twice as fast as the monitor.) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I knew that stupid class (Mechanics of Human Vision) would come in handy!!!
If 120fps is a multiple of your refreshrate, you need a better monitor :)
Time to build an ip: 25.6sec@20, 7.09@60, 4.68@100
Time to fire a full hmg clip: 7.91@20, 7.92@60, 7.81@100
Time till Out of Jpac fuel: 6.37@20, 6.87@60, 6.72@100
With level 3 adrenaline: 61 heal sprays till I hit bottom energy@20, 40@60, 41@100
Time for fatty to run a set distance (wall to a post in one of the hives): 7.02@20, 7.11@60, 7.01@100
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Ok, ran a few more tests today...
LMG fire times: 2.6@20, 4.25@25, 3.15@60, 3.03@72, 2.97@100
Shottie: 8.6@20, 9.07@25, 9.23@60, 9.08@72, 8.57@100
HMG: 7.75@20, 12.19@25, 7.5@60, 8.28@72, 7.7@100
GL: 2.12@20, 2.12@25, 2.08@60, 2.2@72, 2.08@100
HMG Reload times: 6.69@20, 6.68@25, 6.70@60, 6.89@72, 6.60@100
GL Reload times were all within a tenth of a second.
This time I checked five times and took averages of the times. I did check more with adrenaline, and didn't notice any changes.
First I would like to point out that 20 is the lowest you can set half-life to, and is the lowest number I can check on this machine. No options I set will get less than 20fps. Obviously something weird happens to times at 20, probably some sort of boundary check...but I dunno.
For the HMG both 25 and 72 exhibited strange behavior. For the first 20 bullets or so, the display for bullets left seemed to bounce, it would go from 130-115-128-114-127 etc. Until it got below about 115 then it counted down normally. Don't know what is up with that, perhaps it is similar to certain fps giving you MUCH higher jumps in quake2.
Other than that, for the most part frame rate really doesn't make a HUGE difference EXCEPT in build times. I doubt it is enough of a problem to warrant the amount of coding it would take to fix (which is probably why no one has done it, since this problem has been around for a LONG time)
The higher the fps the faster the rate of fire.
The building Defense chambers, making buildings, and other things are tied on the server, usally to pev->nextthink
The defense chamber heals once every 500ms, if i change the nextthink on it to 0.25 (250ms) it will think 2 times faster and heal 2 times faster. I believe it just appears to "seem" faster but its really not any faster.
As for the question at hand, I would'nt be opposed to an fps cap, if the link between fps and the game was confirmed by the devs. Just because you happen to be wealthier or are able to spend more in the hobby doesnt mean they should have an advantage over other players.
(In a perfect world we would all have 0 ping)
-BillsterJ