<!--QuoteBegin--Lee Harvey+Feb 3 2003, 04:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lee Harvey @ Feb 3 2003, 04:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I read somewhere that the human eye can only discern a framerate of 60 "sights"per second, then it all looks the same. I run at 60 fps all the time anyway, so I personally would be a big fan of lowering it to my limit to give the broke/lazy guys out there a break. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Incitatus <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that 24 fps of the eye has nothing to do with the smoothness. It's simply the fact the eye can not send more than 24 frames per second to the brain. But the more fps you have in your comp the smoother the transition will be for each frame send to the brain. Which will make the game look smoother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont mean to be offensive but your both wrong, Tests have proved that the eye can detect well into the 200 fps range. this was done with real scientist and jet pilots as they were testing reactions. the reason people belive 24 fps is the most we can detect is because our eyes imploy a form of "motion blur" that you can get with the CRT in tv's and not on a VDU, which is why 24fps on a moniter is so noticeable.
also many people say you cant tell the difference between 200fps and 100fps : you can, its just becuase the isn't as much stuttering as at 30fps, you wont really notice it. It's like those people who have 100hz refresh rates and can actually see the flicker of a 60hz one.
<!--QuoteBegin--Pod+Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pod @ Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also many people say you cant tell the difference between 200fps and 100fps : you can, its just becuase the isn't as much stuttering as at 30fps, you wont really notice it. It's like those people who have 100hz refresh rates and can actually see the flicker of a 60hz one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--Dee+Feb 3 2003, 07:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dee @ Feb 3 2003, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pod+Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pod @ Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also many people say you cant tell the difference between 200fps and 100fps : you can, its just becuase the isn't as much stuttering as at 30fps, you wont really notice it. It's like those people who have 100hz refresh rates and can actually see the flicker of a 60hz one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good read <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
OK, just to throw something else into a jumbled subject. Are Charge and Leap damage tied to framerate? If half the things mentioned are tied to framerate it seems quite likely the "touches" are too. Oh yeah the sweet spots for firing the lmg/hmg - I'm guessing these are where the minimum time between shots most closely matches the number of frames of animation for each shot. I could give a more detailed explanation, but I think the differences aren't that important. Voogru - I'm guessing you know how a lot of this stuff works, so I'm wondering if you can explain the differences in performance of the jetpack a lot of people are reporting.
I beg to differ with most opinions here. I get crappy FPS in NS(only NS... not other HL mods). I have the option to go buy a quality video card like others do. The thing is that right now, I can't afford it. That is not the fault of the person who CAN afford it. Even though my video card sucks, I do not believe that people with awesome systems should suffer because I do, or anyone else does. Why should they NOT get the performance they pay for? That is completely absurd to me. If you want good, equal, fair, 100, etc... FPS then go buy a quality card. It's not anyones fault but your own that YOUR fps (or mine) really sucks. I think it's just a bunch of whiners out there without jobs, or people like me who are paying for many other IMPORTANT things in life right now. Sure, I would kill for a steady 30 or 40 fps in NS, let alone 100... but I know what is REALLY important in my life, and I surely don't come here and whine that my system sucks(trust me, it does).
What I do think is this:
I do not get the low FPS when I play other HL mods. I am not a coder or programmer so I don't know how to fix it. Two things I do know is this though--
1. FPS is by far definitely lower in NS than it is in other Half-Life mods. 2. The answer?... Go buy a better video card. A Radeon 7500 and the equivalent GeForce 64M card can run NS above 60 fps constantly. Those are selling for anywhere from $50 to $100 USD, max(depending on where you buy). You don't have to spend $200 or more to get good FPS in NS. There's plenty of people that run a decent 64M card that get good FPS in NS.
How do you get the bar up that shows FPS, and also how do you up your FPS?
1.8ghtz 512 ram and a 64 meg vid card should get me to that max, but i cant seem to attain it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm thinking the 60 fps cap is due to having v-sync enabled. Go to your vcards advanced properties and turn off vertical sync. This should allow you to get more than 60 fps. It might cause some tearing and stuff in game but I always have it off and i almost never notice the difference.
<!--QuoteBegin--mojojojo+Feb 3 2003, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mojojojo @ Feb 3 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, just to throw something else into a jumbled subject. Are Charge and Leap damage tied to framerate? If half the things mentioned are tied to framerate it seems quite likely the "touches" are too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think there was a reported problem with the welder being affected by it. That would make it very likely that Charge and Leap are affected too.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
<!--QuoteBegin--2of12[B0RG]+Feb 3 2003, 05:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2of12[B0RG] @ Feb 3 2003, 05:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yea put a FPS cap, FPS patch, yadda yadda. That's really stupid. I paid good money so that I can run half life at 1600x1200 and still get 100 FPS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Great.
Go play Half-Life.
We're talking about NS and it's free.
Donate the cost of a retail game ($2,000,000 or so) and we'll happily leave it so you can play it as you like.
Otherwise, shut the hell up as you haven't paid us jack for our time and effort and I don't recall Flay mentioning a cheque either.
DruBoBack In BeigeJoin Date: 2002-02-06Member: 172Members, NS1 Playtester
GG grendel. Put those nubs in their place. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Dee+Feb 3 2003, 11:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dee @ Feb 3 2003, 11:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Pod+Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pod @ Feb 3 2003, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->also many people say you cant tell the difference between 200fps and 100fps : you can, its just becuase the isn't as much stuttering as at 30fps, you wont really notice it. It's like those people who have 100hz refresh rates and can actually see the flicker of a 60hz one.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> damn you dee i spent a good ten minutes yesterday on google trying to find that site (id read it before and thats how i got the info <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--8of12[BORG]+Feb 3 2003, 08:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (8of12[BORG] @ Feb 3 2003, 08:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do not get the low FPS when I play other HL mods. I am not a coder or programmer so I don't know how to fix it. Two things I do know is this though--
1. FPS is by far definitely lower in NS than it is in other Half-Life mods. 2. The answer?... Go buy a better video card. A Radeon 7500 and the equivalent GeForce 64M card can run NS above 60 fps constantly. Those are selling for anywhere from $50 to $100 USD, max(depending on where you buy). You don't have to spend $200 or more to get good FPS in NS. There's plenty of people that run a decent 64M card that get good FPS in NS.
EDIT: typo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, there are a few things that could cause it.
1) The maps. Often, in NS maps, you walk on a grating that lets you see the real floor below it. In many other mods, floors are just a single surface. So, instead of drawing one textured polygon for some part of the floor, NS draws that textured polygon, and above that another textured one with alphablending (so you can see through the holes in the floor). The total cost in fillrate would be more than twice that of the simple version. This applies to more than just floors, anywhere gratings are involved this is a factor. This requires a high fillrate. Additionally, the maps are among the most complex of all HL mods, at the limits of the tools. How much impact this has on run-time framerate depends on engine internals, but it's safe to assume it doesn't help the fps.
2) The buildings. HL consisted of lots of static geometry (the level), with relatively few things walking around in it, and very few in view at one time. A single turret farm or wall of lame may contain more entities than a HL level. It's safe to assume HL wasn't optimized for this. That means loads of overdraw, again requiring a high fillrate for a good fps. Additionally, many of those structures are quite complex (many polygons), so they will also require a lot of processing time for the geometry. Even on T&L capable cards, as HL wasn't designed with those in mind.
I have a P3 450MHz and a TNT2 Ultra. Looking at a corner of a simple readyroom, I can get 100fps. In battle with buildings, It doesn't get above 30 (and often lower than 15).
Comments
Incitatus
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->that 24 fps of the eye has nothing to do with the smoothness.
It's simply the fact the eye can not send more than 24 frames per second to the brain.
But the more fps you have in your comp the smoother the transition will be for each frame send to the brain.
Which will make the game look smoother.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont mean to be offensive but your both wrong, Tests have proved that the eye can detect well into the 200 fps range. this was done with real scientist and jet pilots as they were testing reactions. the reason people belive 24 fps is the most we can detect is because our eyes imploy a form of "motion blur" that you can get with the CRT in tv's and not on a VDU, which is why 24fps on a moniter is so noticeable.
also many people say you cant tell the difference between 200fps and 100fps : you can, its just becuase the isn't as much stuttering as at 30fps, you wont really notice it. It's like those people who have 100hz refresh rates and can actually see the flicker of a 60hz one.
Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a>
Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good read <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Are Charge and Leap damage tied to framerate? If half the things mentioned are tied to framerate it seems quite likely the "touches" are too.
Oh yeah the sweet spots for firing the lmg/hmg - I'm guessing these are where the minimum time between shots most closely matches the number of frames of animation for each shot. I could give a more detailed explanation, but I think the differences aren't that important.
Voogru - I'm guessing you know how a lot of this stuff works, so I'm wondering if you can explain the differences in performance of the jetpack a lot of people are reporting.
What I do think is this:
I do not get the low FPS when I play other HL mods. I am not a coder or programmer so I don't know how to fix it. Two things I do know is this though--
1. FPS is by far definitely lower in NS than it is in other Half-Life mods.
2. The answer?... Go buy a better video card. A Radeon 7500 and the equivalent GeForce 64M card can run NS above 60 fps constantly. Those are selling for anywhere from $50 to $100 USD, max(depending on where you buy). You don't have to spend $200 or more to get good FPS in NS. There's plenty of people that run a decent 64M card that get good FPS in NS.
EDIT: typo
1.8ghtz 512 ram and a 64 meg vid card should get me to that max, but i cant seem to attain it <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Are Charge and Leap damage tied to framerate? If half the things mentioned are tied to framerate it seems quite likely the "touches" are too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think there was a reported problem with the welder being affected by it. That would make it very likely that Charge and Leap are affected too.
Great.
Go play Half-Life.
We're talking about NS and it's free.
Donate the cost of a retail game ($2,000,000 or so) and we'll happily leave it so you can play it as you like.
Otherwise, shut the hell up as you haven't paid us jack for our time and effort and I don't recall Flay mentioning a cheque either.
<!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's a good little article on the subject:
<a href='http://amo.net/NT/02-21-01FPS.html' target='_blank'>Human Eye Frames Per Second</a> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn you dee
i spent a good ten minutes yesterday on google trying to find that site (id read it before and thats how i got the info <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
1. FPS is by far definitely lower in NS than it is in other Half-Life mods.
2. The answer?... Go buy a better video card. A Radeon 7500 and the equivalent GeForce 64M card can run NS above 60 fps constantly. Those are selling for anywhere from $50 to $100 USD, max(depending on where you buy). You don't have to spend $200 or more to get good FPS in NS. There's plenty of people that run a decent 64M card that get good FPS in NS.
EDIT: typo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, there are a few things that could cause it.
1) The maps.
Often, in NS maps, you walk on a grating that lets you see the real floor below it. In many other mods, floors are just a single surface. So, instead of drawing one textured polygon for some part of the floor, NS draws that textured polygon, and above that another textured one with alphablending (so you can see through the holes in the floor). The total cost in fillrate would be more than twice that of the simple version. This applies to more than just floors, anywhere gratings are involved this is a factor. This requires a high fillrate.
Additionally, the maps are among the most complex of all HL mods, at the limits of the tools. How much impact this has on run-time framerate depends on engine internals, but it's safe to assume it doesn't help the fps.
2) The buildings.
HL consisted of lots of static geometry (the level), with relatively few things walking around in it, and very few in view at one time. A single turret farm or wall of lame may contain more entities than a HL level. It's safe to assume HL wasn't optimized for this. That means loads of overdraw, again requiring a high fillrate for a good fps. Additionally, many of those structures are quite complex (many polygons), so they will also require a lot of processing time for the geometry. Even on T&L capable cards, as HL wasn't designed with those in mind.
I have a P3 450MHz and a TNT2 Ultra. Looking at a corner of a simple readyroom, I can get 100fps. In battle with buildings, It doesn't get above 30 (and often lower than 15).