Fast Fades

RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
<div class="IPBDescription">54 is a lot!</div> I've tried this on a couple games and it seems to work pretty well, though I can't take credit for the idea. Anyway, here it is, fast fades:

RT, 3 DCs (at original hive! jp insurance and such), RT, RT, Hive

Now build nothing. Keep saving up resources. You'll hit 100 before the hive is done. Keep saving. The resource pool keeps filling up. Once that hive goes up, all the resources that have been sitting in the pool go to all the skulks, and they should be right around 54. Once they all start gestating, build your 3 MC.

You're gonna be pretty vulnerable, so hopefully you're with some decent skulks. Also, if someone else goes gorg the whole thing is probably ruined, so make sure everyone knows what you're doing.

Comments

  • taboofirestaboofires Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9853Members
    Well, this is a bit of a gamble. You won't have any buildings to help you out in defense either, and the game might be over before you get fades. Plus, strategically placed dc's about the map make fades more effective. Thirdly, this will only allow you to fade ONCE. Either win the game quick or you're in trouble.

    I do agree that we need to change our strategies slightly to reflect the more expensive fades, but a better long range solution would be to go cap some extra nozzles (and keep them!) instead of sitting on your butt and waiting for the res pool to fill. Get 1 or 2 more nozzles, and the difference won't be so bad. Then, you can about your fatteh business as usual.
  • CrisqoCrisqo Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11625Members
    Bah, I never make offensive chambers when I gorge. I just keep building resource towers untill I get to 80 resources on my way to the next nozzle, then I put up a hive...Skulks do my protecting.
  • sekdarsekdar Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9564Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--taboofires+Feb 4 2003, 01:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (taboofires @ Feb 4 2003, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, this is a bit of a gamble. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    as are all strategic rushes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->


    if you have the offensive advantage and smart skulks that flexibly attack/defend, this is excellent.

    if the skulks don't know how to defend, and/or if the marines are extremely aggressive and you can't keep them out, you lose.


    Rushing is a double-edged sword.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    neat idea, kinda the reverse of 'dont go lerk so the gorge gets more res' idea.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    I measured lots of resource timing data just because I was curious. So here's how it goes:

    Resources
    - There is a tick every 5 seconds.
    - The team gets (num RTs + 1) every tick.
    - EXCEPT, every 6th tick gives you nothing.

    Timing
    - RT with usebuild takes 30 seconds.
    - DC with usebuild takes 13 seconds.
    - OT with usebuild takes 8.5 seconds.
    - MC with usebuild takes 8 seconds.
    - Hive takes 3 minutes, 20 seconds.

    I also made a silly excel workbook which aided me in calulating cartain scenarios:

    (these times are time until second hive is up, in mm:ss format)
    RT, RT, Hive: 12:15 (and 5:50 more till fades.. 18:05)
    RT, RT, RT, Hive: 12:30 (and 4:23 more till fades.. 16:53)
    RT, RT, RT, RT, Hive: 12:55 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 16:25)
    RT, RT, RT, RT, RT, Hive: 13:00 (and 2:55 more till fades.. 15:55)

    RT, 3 DC, RT, RT, Hive: 14:10 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 17:40)
    RT, RT, 3 DC, RT, Hive: 13:35 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 17:05)
    RT, RT, RT, 3 DC, Hive: 13:25 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 16:55)

    So with 3 RTs and the "fast fades" thing, you end up getting fades 3 minutes and 30 seconds faster.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    Just for giggles, I tried out 2 other scenerios to disprove some myths:
    Myth 1. Going lerk when you hit 33 does not hurt the team.
    Myth 2. Going gorg to build another rt when you hit 33 is beneficial.

    So for Myth #1, I plugged in the numbers into my build order, RT, 3DC, RT, RT, Hive.
    When one of my virtual skulks hit 33 I dropped him back to zero.
    In the end, it took 20 seconds longer before we had the hive.

    For Myth #2, I plugged it in, and found (assuming a 30 second evolve time)....
    The main gorg had 80 for the hive 5 seconds slower. I thought these would be a little more dramatic, but oh well.
  • NiteowlNiteowl Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    nice numbers rugg <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> appreciate it.
  • zubatazubata Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13090Members
    Ruddigger, thats just not true. Your resource model is very wrong. First read some of the pinned threads about resources and don't confuse other people, please.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--zubata+Feb 4 2003, 08:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (zubata @ Feb 4 2003, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ruddigger, thats just not true. Your resource model is very wrong. First read some of the pinned threads about resources and don't confuse other people, please.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've read every post about the resource model. I ommitted all the already published details about the resource model, but I did take them into account. You can see my workbook here: <a href='http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~jwaugh/NS_book1.xls' target='_blank'>http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~jwaugh/NS_book1.xls</a> It's probably doesn't make sense, but to change the scenerio, just change the cells with the aqua background, and leave the other cells alone.
  • zubatazubata Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13090Members
    Ruddigger, you model does not even mention the number of players in the team so how could it be right ? The basic formula is 1 + numRT * numPlayers * 0.23, so you model could work approximately for four player teams. I could not look at your Excel file, because I don't have Excel. Actually I am just writing a program which does these kinds of calculation. It's not done yet but the current development version can be found at <a href='http://nakyveci.wz.cz/NSEcoSim.html' target='_blank'>http://nakyveci.wz.cz/NSEcoSim.html</a>.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    Hmm.. I assumed that the res/tick would not depend on the number of players in the game. I did the timing with a 1 on 1 game (me and a bot), but based the model on an 8 vs 8 game. I'll have to set up an 8 vs 8 game with some bots and try it out. I just tried a minute ago but the alien bots keep going gorge.

    So it does depend on the number of players? I'm not sure about that scale factor of .23 though. So you mean res/tick would be (1 + numRT * num(total?)Players * .23)? That doesn't correspond with what I saw in-game. In game (1 vs 1) I saw 2 res/tick with 1 RT, 3 res/tick with 2 RTs, etc.

    The file opens fine in Open Office (so also Star Office I would assume).
  • RionRion Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7752Members
    maybe it's just me.. but wouldn't the resources come in equally as fast?

    why dely teh second hive? leap is great for skulks, and umbra can save you more than you think, if you really don't want the gorge to have that RP, set the hive and go skulks so everyone gets RP evenly
  • UnknownUnknown Join Date: 2002-06-12 Member: 759Members
    There is already a small program that tells you how many res you get per tick.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    So that's the same formula you're using Zubata? It doesn't seem to work right for 1 on 1 (and I haven't verified anything else).

    So thats 1 marine, 1 alien, 1 gorge on team, and I am the gorge, and 1 resource tower. The program says .23 resources/tick when I measure 2 res/tick in that situation.
  • ZERGZERG Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13132Members, Constellation
    Actually, it doesn't hurt the team for one person to go lerk. If you get 33 and time it so you gestate when everyone else is also maxed out, you'll max out from everyone else's overflowing RPs and get 33 again in a few seconds.

    I don't have any fancy calculations or anything, but I'd rather buy the team more time by killing more marines than take a gamble. E.g. there are times when your team needs to get to a hive location pronto and there is this marine down a long hall sniping out your team, this is where a skilled lerk can really save the day.

    So I don't think there really is any safe way to go early mass fade pre-1.04. 1.04 kinda fixed that.
  • Alpha_1Alpha_1 Join Date: 2002-12-18 Member: 11041Members, Constellation
    Hey rudigger,

    I think if you go into the bot settings file you can disable the alien bot from going gorge. I had to use the 'no comm' setting in order to be able to be comm when using bots, so you should be able to do the same with aliens.
  • zubatazubata Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13090Members
    "I assumed that the res/tick would not depend on the number of players in the game."

    It sure does, that's clear.

    When I set my program to 1 on 1 game, it awards the lonely alien player (gorge) with 0.41 * 3 = 1.23 which corresponds with Flayra's model (1 + 1*1*0.23) as it is described. But I did not test the results of my program in real game yet...

    You can find the resource model description by Flayra himself here <a href='http://licho.ascs.muni.cz/lcz/files/resource-model.txt' target='_blank'>http://licho.ascs.muni.cz/lcz/files/resource-model.txt</a>.
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    More testing woo!

    1 on 1
    Measured: 1.67 res/tick (with 1 rt)
    Calculated: 1.23 res/tick

    8 on 8
    Measured: 2.4 res/tick (with 1 rt, after all skulks full)
    Calculated: 2.84 res/tick

    So I dunno. I'm testing on 1.04, maybe there was a change?
    Also, Flayra says the tick is 6 seconds, but it really is 5. Exactly 5, on the dot, every time.
  • BeetlejuiceBeetlejuice Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7542Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually, it doesn't hurt the team for one person to go lerk. If you get 33 and time it so you gestate when everyone else is also maxed out, you'll max out from everyone else's overflowing RPs and get 33 again in a few seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    How can you say you do not hurt the team with going lerk when in the next sentence you exactly explain why you DO hurt your team with it? Maybe you should read your second sentence again and think about it. "you'll max out from everyone else's overflowing RPs". Those overflowing RPs which would otherwise go to the gorge (because everyone is maxed out) so he could build the second hive. So you just delayed the hive for up to 33 rp.
  • leekleek Join Date: 2003-02-03 Member: 13042Members
    edited February 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Ruddigger+Feb 4 2003, 06:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ruddigger @ Feb 4 2003, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Resources
    -  There is a tick every 5 seconds.
    -  The team gets (num RTs + 1) every tick.
    -  EXCEPT, every 6th tick gives you nothing.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    thats exactly the same amount as 1 res every 6th tick.

    which could be a bug of some kind, ive had the right amount of res to build a structure before and had the maniacal hive mind tell me "U NEED MORE RESOURCES!!".

    id guess (and i mean Guess) that it may appear to ur client that ur gettint a tick every 5secs but it is actually 6 on the server.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    Beetle juice, the math has been done on a skulk goin lerk and its effect on when the hive goes up. It results init going up 20 seconds slower. Not much is it ?
  • RuddiggerRuddigger Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--leek+Feb 5 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (leek @ Feb 5 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> id guess (and i mean Guess) that it may appear to ur client that ur gettint a tick every 5secs but it is actually 6 on the server. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I still don't fully know whats going on. In the 1 on 1, 1 rt, it followed the 5/6 thing, but when I did testing with 8 on 8, I would get resources every tick (every 5 seconds on the dot)... just different amounts.

    Anyway, I don't feel like spending any more time thinking about the whole resource system, its really not that important. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • CxwfCxwf Join Date: 2003-02-05 Member: 13168Members, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    Edit--Oops, missed the second page. All of my questions were already answered.
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