Fast Fades
Ruddigger
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13095Members
<div class="IPBDescription">54 is a lot!</div> I've tried this on a couple games and it seems to work pretty well, though I can't take credit for the idea. Anyway, here it is, fast fades:
RT, 3 DCs (at original hive! jp insurance and such), RT, RT, Hive
Now build nothing. Keep saving up resources. You'll hit 100 before the hive is done. Keep saving. The resource pool keeps filling up. Once that hive goes up, all the resources that have been sitting in the pool go to all the skulks, and they should be right around 54. Once they all start gestating, build your 3 MC.
You're gonna be pretty vulnerable, so hopefully you're with some decent skulks. Also, if someone else goes gorg the whole thing is probably ruined, so make sure everyone knows what you're doing.
RT, 3 DCs (at original hive! jp insurance and such), RT, RT, Hive
Now build nothing. Keep saving up resources. You'll hit 100 before the hive is done. Keep saving. The resource pool keeps filling up. Once that hive goes up, all the resources that have been sitting in the pool go to all the skulks, and they should be right around 54. Once they all start gestating, build your 3 MC.
You're gonna be pretty vulnerable, so hopefully you're with some decent skulks. Also, if someone else goes gorg the whole thing is probably ruined, so make sure everyone knows what you're doing.
Comments
I do agree that we need to change our strategies slightly to reflect the more expensive fades, but a better long range solution would be to go cap some extra nozzles (and keep them!) instead of sitting on your butt and waiting for the res pool to fill. Get 1 or 2 more nozzles, and the difference won't be so bad. Then, you can about your fatteh business as usual.
as are all strategic rushes <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
if you have the offensive advantage and smart skulks that flexibly attack/defend, this is excellent.
if the skulks don't know how to defend, and/or if the marines are extremely aggressive and you can't keep them out, you lose.
Rushing is a double-edged sword.
Resources
- There is a tick every 5 seconds.
- The team gets (num RTs + 1) every tick.
- EXCEPT, every 6th tick gives you nothing.
Timing
- RT with usebuild takes 30 seconds.
- DC with usebuild takes 13 seconds.
- OT with usebuild takes 8.5 seconds.
- MC with usebuild takes 8 seconds.
- Hive takes 3 minutes, 20 seconds.
I also made a silly excel workbook which aided me in calulating cartain scenarios:
(these times are time until second hive is up, in mm:ss format)
RT, RT, Hive: 12:15 (and 5:50 more till fades.. 18:05)
RT, RT, RT, Hive: 12:30 (and 4:23 more till fades.. 16:53)
RT, RT, RT, RT, Hive: 12:55 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 16:25)
RT, RT, RT, RT, RT, Hive: 13:00 (and 2:55 more till fades.. 15:55)
RT, 3 DC, RT, RT, Hive: 14:10 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 17:40)
RT, RT, 3 DC, RT, Hive: 13:35 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 17:05)
RT, RT, RT, 3 DC, Hive: 13:25 (and 3:30 more till fades.. 16:55)
So with 3 RTs and the "fast fades" thing, you end up getting fades 3 minutes and 30 seconds faster.
Myth 1. Going lerk when you hit 33 does not hurt the team.
Myth 2. Going gorg to build another rt when you hit 33 is beneficial.
So for Myth #1, I plugged in the numbers into my build order, RT, 3DC, RT, RT, Hive.
When one of my virtual skulks hit 33 I dropped him back to zero.
In the end, it took 20 seconds longer before we had the hive.
For Myth #2, I plugged it in, and found (assuming a 30 second evolve time)....
The main gorg had 80 for the hive 5 seconds slower. I thought these would be a little more dramatic, but oh well.
I've read every post about the resource model. I ommitted all the already published details about the resource model, but I did take them into account. You can see my workbook here: <a href='http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~jwaugh/NS_book1.xls' target='_blank'>http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~jwaugh/NS_book1.xls</a> It's probably doesn't make sense, but to change the scenerio, just change the cells with the aqua background, and leave the other cells alone.
So it does depend on the number of players? I'm not sure about that scale factor of .23 though. So you mean res/tick would be (1 + numRT * num(total?)Players * .23)? That doesn't correspond with what I saw in-game. In game (1 vs 1) I saw 2 res/tick with 1 RT, 3 res/tick with 2 RTs, etc.
The file opens fine in Open Office (so also Star Office I would assume).
why dely teh second hive? leap is great for skulks, and umbra can save you more than you think, if you really don't want the gorge to have that RP, set the hive and go skulks so everyone gets RP evenly
So thats 1 marine, 1 alien, 1 gorge on team, and I am the gorge, and 1 resource tower. The program says .23 resources/tick when I measure 2 res/tick in that situation.
I don't have any fancy calculations or anything, but I'd rather buy the team more time by killing more marines than take a gamble. E.g. there are times when your team needs to get to a hive location pronto and there is this marine down a long hall sniping out your team, this is where a skilled lerk can really save the day.
So I don't think there really is any safe way to go early mass fade pre-1.04. 1.04 kinda fixed that.
I think if you go into the bot settings file you can disable the alien bot from going gorge. I had to use the 'no comm' setting in order to be able to be comm when using bots, so you should be able to do the same with aliens.
It sure does, that's clear.
When I set my program to 1 on 1 game, it awards the lonely alien player (gorge) with 0.41 * 3 = 1.23 which corresponds with Flayra's model (1 + 1*1*0.23) as it is described. But I did not test the results of my program in real game yet...
You can find the resource model description by Flayra himself here <a href='http://licho.ascs.muni.cz/lcz/files/resource-model.txt' target='_blank'>http://licho.ascs.muni.cz/lcz/files/resource-model.txt</a>.
1 on 1
Measured: 1.67 res/tick (with 1 rt)
Calculated: 1.23 res/tick
8 on 8
Measured: 2.4 res/tick (with 1 rt, after all skulks full)
Calculated: 2.84 res/tick
So I dunno. I'm testing on 1.04, maybe there was a change?
Also, Flayra says the tick is 6 seconds, but it really is 5. Exactly 5, on the dot, every time.
How can you say you do not hurt the team with going lerk when in the next sentence you exactly explain why you DO hurt your team with it? Maybe you should read your second sentence again and think about it. "you'll max out from everyone else's overflowing RPs". Those overflowing RPs which would otherwise go to the gorge (because everyone is maxed out) so he could build the second hive. So you just delayed the hive for up to 33 rp.
- There is a tick every 5 seconds.
- The team gets (num RTs + 1) every tick.
- EXCEPT, every 6th tick gives you nothing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thats exactly the same amount as 1 res every 6th tick.
which could be a bug of some kind, ive had the right amount of res to build a structure before and had the maniacal hive mind tell me "U NEED MORE RESOURCES!!".
id guess (and i mean Guess) that it may appear to ur client that ur gettint a tick every 5secs but it is actually 6 on the server.
I still don't fully know whats going on. In the 1 on 1, 1 rt, it followed the 5/6 thing, but when I did testing with 8 on 8, I would get resources every tick (every 5 seconds on the dot)... just different amounts.
Anyway, I don't feel like spending any more time thinking about the whole resource system, its really not that important. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->