The game developers at Valve were well aware of StrafeJumping when they created Half-Life. If it was such a problem back then they would have removed it from the code.
It *CAN* be taken out by simply lowering the airaccelerate level, so if you run a server or have rcon you can effectively remove it yourself. Don't nerf one of the few good mods that still *HAS* the ability to StrafeJump though - DOD has stamina so you can't bhop, CS has slowed it to a crawl, and the other mods suck so they don't count.
Purelace - You add nothing to the conversation, please refrain from personal attacks. Removing an Exploit like BHing (yes it is an exploit, even sobe.dragon who supports bhing agrees it is) is hardly as disbalancing as leaving it in. Many people find aimbots entertaining, should they be allowed to keep the mod entertaining and fair? The only thing you were right about is that removing BHing will "invariably alter the balance between the races", it will put them on the level field they were intended to be on. Please, come back when you have your facts straight.
borf - if you do test the knockback on a normal jumping marine I'd like to know the results. I will test it myself once I have gotten home from work and can gather my clanmates.
Purelace: First of all I think you sort of missed the general discussion here. When they're referring to Bhopping here they're talking about using it to move fast down a hallway. Not the up and down jumping to 'dodge' skulk bites. (However I do beileve strafe does a nice job with dodging as well.) It's an engine/speed exploit that's been hotly debated since it's first discovery.
To repeat for others who don't actually want to read the thread: Flayra has weighed in on the subject repeatedly and can be found in the "old" Bhopping threat that almost crushed the forum with it's thirty page weight. He has spoken that it does not fit the atmosphere of NS.
As for wether or not this will affect gameplay horrendously: The proponents of BHopping say leaving it in will not unbalance sides, nor is it unfair as anyone can do it if they just learn how. On the counter side: If it doesn't unbalance anything by staying in it really can't unbalance anything by being removed either.
So let's look at the points: It doesn't unbalance EITHER way. It ruins NS's atmosphere.
That's the clear and simple facts.
As before I've stated and I'll state again: Yes, I do bunny hop. I am not a "skillez OMG n00b SUYF! ffs!" who is whining or not whining. I'm stating what Flayra has said. And what the arguers have said on both sides.
I dont' mean to pick on you John but: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Veterans adapt.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[Edit] You know, I tried to edit that last bit out because I just knew it'd probably be taken personal. Oh well. Sure. I'll see if we can scrim. I'd love the privaledge. You'll murder us. Congrats.
My previous statements will still stand wether or not you beat the holy hell out of us. [/edit]
As for 'adapting'. It goes eitherway. To learn or unlearn.
<!--QuoteBegin--Iden+Feb 5 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Iden @ Feb 5 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Purelace: First of all I think you sort of missed the general discussion here. When they're referring to Bhopping here they're talking about using it to move fast down a hallway. Not the up and down jumping to 'dodge' skulk bites. (However I do beileve strafe does a nice job with dodging as well.) It's an engine/speed exploit that's been hotly debated since it's first discovery.
To repeat for others who don't actually want to read the thread: Flayra has weighed in on the subject repeatedly and can be found in the "old" Bhopping threat that almost crushed the forum with it's thirty page weight. He has spoken that it does not fit the atmosphere of NS.
As for wether or not this will affect gameplay horrendously: The proponents of BHopping say leaving it in will not unbalance sides, nor is it unfair as anyone can do it if they just learn how. On the counter side: If it doesn't unbalance anything by staying in it really can't unbalance anything by being removed either.
So let's look at the points: It doesn't unbalance EITHER way. It ruins NS's atmosphere.
That's the clear and simple facts.
As before I've stated and I'll state again: Yes, I do bunny hop. I am not a "skillez OMG n00b SUYF! ffs!" who is whining or not whining. I'm stating what Flayra has said. And what the arguers have said on both sides.
I don't mean to pick on you John but: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Veterans adapt.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hrmm I forgot to mention that I dont strafe jump that much either, and as for adapting, you needn't worry about things that dont concern you. My adaptablility has kept me dominate in this game.
Feel free to gather 5 of the best players you know and lets test MY adaptability.
and to quote my clanmate
[15:56] <sYn|Duck> that's the point... veterans adapt to bunny hopping being in the game
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So let's look at the points: It doesn't unbalance EITHER way. It ruins NS's atmosphere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen.
Also note that Pong is a completely balanced game. I'll refrain from expounding upon the implications of that for some of the points others brought up in this thread. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't ruin NS atmosphere, I already made a thread about that. Overall game atmosphere doesn't really matter, since it changes from map to map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Huh? Speak for yourself. I didn't see the marines in "Aliens" bunnyhopping down the hall. That kind of gritty, paranoid, deliberate atmosphere is very similar to NS when your squad is moving down a hallway. Now, if your point man is bouncing up and down like a rabbit on crack, well... it definitely invokes a different atmosphere for me. Call me crazy I guess.
Oh, and as for the original posters idea that changing the knockback from a Skulk bite would help balance things a bit, I AM in complete agreement there. Worth testing anyway I think.
<!--QuoteBegin--Iden+Feb 5 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Iden @ Feb 5 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I dont' mean to pick on you John but: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Veterans adapt.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry about him - he stole that quote from me anyway <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> FW U scrub <3
StrafeJumping = Fun NS = Fun SJ + NS = Funnerer
If the intent is to get it removed, make a variable that would allow us to turn it back on, rather than hard coding it to be absolutely unchangeable. I don't want to have to go to TFC or some other lame mod to mess with BHopping. I think that is a perfectly fair and fine solution to the problem, is it not?
And i diden't see the marines in aliens move their feet with their gun, aim with a mouse, only be able to hold 3 positions ( jump/crouch/stand) It still remains that there is no real reason to take bhop out of the game other than "atmosphere." Quite frankly i don't see how a model jumping makes you people so nuts. Jumping around is and always be a major part of FPS gaming. As far as realism, why not take out strafe from the game? I know a bunch of people in the army and they weren't taught to strafe around with their guns, while we are at it i don't like how marines can move backwards with the HMG while shooting i think it would knock them backwards if they tried so that should be removed too.
Oh, when this gets locked feel free to contune on the syn forums, syn.fatkao.com. Nobodies posts will be edited or any lameness like that so say what you want.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the intent is to get it removed, make a variable that would allow us to turn it back on<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd definitely have no problem with that. More choices for the player are almost always a good thing... as long as they can easily determine which ruleset is in place. However, it depends on how integral Flayra et al feel it is to basic gameplay.
And for the record, I've never found strafejumping to be "fun". I'm glad you do, but everyone has their own feelings about it and I figured I'd share mine since I'm sure you wondered. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It still remains that there is no real reason to take bhop out of the game other than "atmosphere."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already said that. While atmosphere obviously isn't a big issue for some, it IS for others. It happens to be the main reason I started playing NS... the background and atmosphere. I hadn't played a FPS game for at least a year prior to NS's release. Sure, the gameplay has kept me around, but to discount atmosphere completely would be a huge disservice to the developers/mappers/writers.
What is the problem with bunny hopping being removed? Is it so much fun that Natural Selection will just be pale comparison to its former glory without it? I really cannot see that bunny hopping has any part in the game, and that the game will be any worse without it.
when everyone has the knowledge and capability to bunnyhop, would it be such a topic of discussion?
disregard any personal opinions on the matter, and understand that for most people, the problem with bunnyhopping lies within the inability to do so.
but in so doing, they simply render themselves obsolete. adaptation and improvisation are key to this game. if something does not work for you, you must change and try something new until something works. as an alien, if a marine is bunny hopping, would you go at him straight on? or wait until a corner? if a marine isnt bunny hopping, would you go at him straight on? or wait until a corner? in either case, a corner will prove to be the better option of the two. the reason being, tactically, it is better because of the blind side that the marine has.
but the entire base of this discussion, in my eyes, is not bunnyhopping itself, though that is where the topic has led to; but actually in the "marine knock-back" issue. fix that, allowing marines to be killed as they should be, and there would be no more topic of discussion.
im too lazy to type out more, so if my idea seems unfinished, thats because it probably is, and i have other things to attend to.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->disregard any personal opinions on the matter, and understand that for most people, the problem with bunnyhopping lies within the inability to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't speak for "most people", but my problem with BHing has nothing to do with my inability to do so. I know how to do many things in NS that can gain me an advantage, but I make a conscious choice NOT to do them. The reasons I refrain from certain activities usually fall into one of two categories. 1) I consider something an exploit or 2) I consider it harm the atmosphere of the game for either myself or other players. Having an enjoyable game is paramount in my opinion and all of the most enjoyable games I've had were ones that EVERYONE enjoyed. Again, that's just me though. Games for me are entertainment... not a job. If they aren't enjoyable, then I don't really care if I win or lose. I just won't play them, and will move on to something that IS fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Morose+Feb 5 2003, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morose @ Feb 5 2003, 06:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->disregard any personal opinions on the matter, and understand that for most people, the problem with bunnyhopping lies within the inability to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can't speak for "most people", but my problem with BHing has nothing to do with my inability to do so. I know how to do many things in NS that can gain me an advantage, but I make a conscious choice NOT to do them. The reasons I refrain from certain activities usually fall into one of two categories. 1) I consider something an exploit or 2) I consider it harm the atmosphere of the game for either myself or other players. Having an enjoyable game is paramount in my opinion and all of the most enjoyable games I've had were ones that EVERYONE enjoyed. Again, that's just me though. Games for me are entertainment... not a job. If they aren't enjoyable, then I don't really care if I win or lose. I just won't play them, and will move on to something that IS fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well said.
OK, this thread has got me a bit riled up, so this is going to be last post in it. Why should bunny-hopping be in the game, and, say Street Fighter 2 style special moves shouldn't be? They're both about as relevant to the game. Why are all the bunny hopping fans so upset that its being removed? Is the game going to be so much less fun without it?
And, finally, to the "I bet its just those people who cannot bunny hop who complain about it." I did a search on these forums, and the first mention of bunny hopping appears after it was annouced it was being removed in v1.1. So it would be far more accurate to say "Its all those people who can bunny hop complaining about it being removed." The devs don't want it, I don't want it, and I have yet to see a convincing reason to be given for it to be included. So, adapt to the change, as you're all so proud of saying. EDIT: typo
I like to Bunny Hop around my yard after a long day of work. I find that I can catch other animals when I go in BH mode because when I run (in normal human mode) i just cant grab them but once I BH i get a 40% increase in speed to catch those furry mofos.
So I'm all for BH in my yard just not in NS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--|MaTT|+Feb 5 2003, 10:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|MaTT| @ Feb 5 2003, 10:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Half life or any of its mods are not meant to be played this way... Bunny hopping should be removed from all of them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed. Bunnyhopping was never designed to be part of the game. It gives an unfair advantage to exploiters and actually breaks many intended features of the game, such as movement speed. Skulks are supposed to move faster than marines. Marines should rely upon phases to cover vast distances, not bunnyhop. The fact that a player looks so silly doing it should be an indicator that it was never intended to be part fo the game.
I also find that bunny hoping is great on a first date. If things are going bad and u see shes losing interest then go into BH mode. Boy she'll just love it. Some find it cute. But be careful some will find it crazy and leave BHing in the park.
use the BH wisely my peoples. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is another great place to use the BH. How many of u take your dogs there and they always run 100 miles an hour and u cant keep up. Well ever since I've used the BH me and my dog do many laps around the park and I dont lose a step with the big guy. The BH has really improved my animal/human relations.
THANKS BH!!!!
I'm all for the BH. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off Bhop and strafe jump are very, very difference methods of movement. Just as gliding is. 3 Completely (well, gliding and strafe jump is similar) different things. Strafe jump is just strafing while jumping, no turning. Bhop is the most complicated, using only strafe and not forward, swinging it back and forth to get more air speed and jumping constantly to not loose it from touching the ground. Gliding is between the two, flicking your mouse towards the corner of your screen while performing your strafe jump. If one were to remove Bunnyhop, it'd be best to remove gliding as well, however that's harder, unless a stamina bar is put in. Secondly bunnyhop was <i>not</i> capped at 140%, it was capped at 170%, a rather significant increase in speed. You are just short of going twice as fast at peak speeds. Strafe jump can only get you to nearing 130%, gliding, 135%, but, instantly, unlike bunnyhop and strafe jump, which takes a while to build speed.
Before I go on, I feel it necessary to say that I do bunny hop. In TFC I conc and bunnyhop all the time, it's mostly what the game is for me. I play offense, so it's mostly grenade and conc use, and bhop, with a little shotty aim. I bhop in TFC, strafe jump in Quake 3, and do all sorts of other fun movement bugs, in unrealism games. (Unreal, Quake, TFC.) NS, CS, DoD, all strive for realism, rather, in the sense that you aren’t propelling yourself at insane speeds over insane distances, taking very little damage from the fall, all done by the use of one huge explosion which did no damage itself. It's a futuristic, Sci-Fi game, yes, but when it comes right down to it, it's far more realistic than TFC or Quake 3.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind in the least if it was squashed entirely from NS. I laugh at people that complain about it in TFC, in NS my views change quite drastically.
Bunnyhopping silently is super powered, letting you go from base to a far away hive (lets say viaduct on nothing), in a matter of seconds, with out being detected. A few times I've been bhopping silently on some random server, and a skulk would run right past me, or under me sometimes, and not even notice since we were turning a corner. Obviously, this is the most important aspect of bunny hop to remove.
Bunnyhopping backwards is super powered, letting you run from a fade, onos and for a short distance skulk (unless it's bunnyhopping too, or bearing celerity), fire at him and keep your distance. Worse if the person is good at bunnyhopping, he can jump in a circle once he's in a corner, and end up behind the fade, possibly before the fade knew what hit him. Naturally, this is the part of Bunny hop that needs to be removed the most.
Bunnyhopping forward is super powered, as marine, Letting you nearly keep pace with a skulk, out run a fade, gorge, onos, or walking lerk, and it's fairly easy to start up, with a good glide, going from zero to 135 or more percent of the max speed in one jump. Phase gates and jetpacks lose a lot of their use when the marines are almost fast enough to make them useless anyway. Because of that, Bunnyhopping for marines needs to be removed more than any other bunnyhop problem.
Bunnyhopping forward is super powered, as alien, Letting skulks turn corners at insane speeds, coming from nowhere and killing a pack, then bunny hopping to the other side of the map, only to do it again. A bunnyhopping skulk with celerity can span large rooms in two jumps, with out it, 3. Fades can bunny hop silently, only having to worry about the occasional random hissing sound they make, making the silent bunnyhopping balls of death even more deadly than silent bunnyhopping marines. Gorges can easily outrun marines, making them much harder to kill, making the slowest alien a decent bit faster than your average marine. All these things make alien bunnyhop the most powerful, and, the one that should be removed the most.
As you can see, all aspects of bunnyhop cause rather large imbalances in the teams. In high level clan matches where both clans should know how to bhop anyway (since bhop is a large part of being high level... At least, in TFC and from what I've seen in NS as well), there should be some option to enable it if both clans want. Some people like it, some people don't, so why not make it an option, if you can indeed fix it? If it came down to gone or not, rather than an option I personally would rather see it gone, because if it's still around, people will do it, and while people do it, people who can't will complain, then large flame battles start of it, ruining the fun for everyone.
I figure I'd put my opinion in as the probable single person who both can bhop rather well and still doesn't want it around. In general it's people who can bhop vs. people who can't. As far as the Veterans adapt statement goes... I believe that it's nice for people to know how to bhop. They can like it, they can hate it, they should learn how to do it. People who don't know how to bhop's opinion hold slightly less water than those who do, simply because those who do know what it's like. They see someone getting an unfair advantage and obviously assume they are cheating, which I won't say my opinion, as, it's just a random opinion. Most people don't like bhop, until they can bhop. Many people who I deal with used to hate me for bhopping, so, I offered to teach them. 2 accepted, I taught, they learned, they now bhop, and get flak like I did from people for bhopping. Before I could bhop I thought it was unfair, letting people go faster than I could. I can understand that people don't want to learn, for whatever reason, but for those who do, I don't doubt you'll see what I mean after you learn to bhop.
Does it add another dimension to the game? Not in NS. NS can be a long, boring game, yes. Bhop does speed it up, yes. However, Bhop also causes huge problems not with the respawn->combat structure, But when you can't hear them combing, in combat they can out run you, and they can get away from combat very fast. This tips the balance to marines, simply because it's harder to bhop and fight with the alien, do to the nature of their attacks. Fades are another story, though, they will pretty much beat a bhopping marine like a drum anyway, regardless as to if they can bhop or not. In addition I think it was intended to be somewhat long and slow paced, for whatever reason. Is that a good thing? Sometimes. The combats are far and few between in the early game, save on small maps like Tanith and Eclipse. Most of the early game is building up your team, working towards the mid and late game where the combat starts to matter. By then the aliens should have movement chambers, leap, adrenaline, celerity, blink, flight, whatever, the marines should have jps and phase gates, so bhop, while still annoying, isn't as game shattering. It doesn't negate the fact that it'd probably be best removed from NS. After all, all you bhoppers can always go play TFC if you really want to bhop that bad. When I want long, thinking, strategy, I play NS. When I start to get bored of that, since it's long and thinking and I have a short attention span, I find some TFC server to bhop and conc and whatever else.
For a short touch on the knock back issue, that is another large problem, especially because with armor 1 you can take 3 skulk bites. This means that after the first bite you get a large amount of backwards momentum, which you can start to skim from. (For those who don't know, skimming is jumping constantly to keep momentum, without using any other method of gaining speed, again, capped at 170%.) That’s a good distance and still more to come, a long distance for a skulk to close before the second bite, which only causes a repeat of step 1. Most marines that can bhop/skim (not all) have enough hit scan aim to shred a skulk by the time he closes the distance twice with a lmg.
After this long post though, whatever anyone says, including me, probably won't matter. Flayra will probably still do whatever he was going to do. I just thought I'd clear some things and throw in my rather extensive opinion with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--FatKao+Feb 5 2003, 01:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FatKao @ Feb 5 2003, 01:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> also protip, bhoping isn't "pressing the jump button over and over" to be able to maintain a bhop while shooting, is very difficult. And btw a skulk running is still faster than a bhop marine. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually Im not talking about bunnyhopping while shooting. Im talking about marines just bunnyhopping to get a speed boost. The base speed of a marine is there for a reason. Its not meant for them to be able to jump faster. So I think you missed my point. Yes it does require skill to be able to jump and fire at the same time but not to bunnyhop from point A to point B.
Um ... when you use the term "bunny hopping", what exactly are you talking about?
The most impressive bunny hopping I have seen is on the speedruns over at <a href='http://www.planetquake.com/qdq' target='_blank'>Quake done Quick</a>. I can honestly say (and I have played a lot of HLDM, NS, TFC and other stuff) that I have never seen this performed ANYWHERE else. It is a highly skilled technique which also requires better than average ping and framerate. This alone would be enough to qualify for removal IMO, because it puts anyone with a slow connection/old computer at further disadvantage.
On the other hand, you may be referring to bunny hopping as the technique of jumping at the exact instant you hit the ground (this is what I think you are all referring to). It gives you maybe a 50% increase in speed, but really requires little more skill than an ability to spam the jump key. It's pretty trivial IMO, and should not be removed if that would offend so many loyal NS players.
All that coolness just to watch a bunch of marines bounce up and down wherever they go. Bounce up and down when they are being attacked. Bounce up and down when they are attacking. Bunny hopping has become such a popular tactic, teamplay has taken a backseat to the ability to jump and fire at the same time.
As far as I'm concerned HLTV is instrumental in making NS a more spectator friendly teamplay mod, this means leagues like CAL will be more interested in making NS an event at one of their tounaments. But will this make a bunch of hopping marines entertaining to watch? In the NS manual we are made to believe sticking in squads of 4-5 Marines is best. In reality a squad of 2-3 skilled bunny hopping marines can do everything but major Hive attacks.
I don't deny that jumping, aiming, and firing takes some skill. However, as a spectator sport how exciting is that tactic to watch? Could the decline of DM based tournaments be an indication of where bunny hopping, a DM-based skill, is going?
<i>I'm posting this thread in the HLTV Thread too, I think it is relevent</i>
Fact of the matter, bunny hopping is getting taken out of the game.
I agree with it. Flayra obviously agrees with it.
Debating it now is moot, all this is just an opportunity for the people who depend on it (or at least think it gives them the advantage in game) to whine some more, and the anti-BH'ers to rub it in their face/state how its not a real skill/say it doesn't belong in NS.
It would be important to draw a line between bunnyhopping and jumping backwards.
As is stands now, marines who jump/hop backwards while shooting do not incur the movement speed penalty which they would if they just walked backward normally, making it much harder for skulks to close the distance.
Wow. For a second I thought I was back in the old CS 1.4 forums. The only difference here is that we don't have people accusing Flayra of being a sellout for taking bunnyhopping out of the game.
Yes, that was a hot topic back in the day. People were screaming about how Valve was an evil moneygrubbing corporation because they wanted to remove bunnyhopping, removing bunnyhopping took all the skill out of the game, made it so any newbie could win just by clicking randomly, and made the game move much slower so that you could barely get from one end of your base to the other in under five minutes. And the Counter-Strike team, once beloved by all, were obviously sellouts because they were involved in the removal of bunnyhopping. Nobody would ever play CS again, because bunnyhopping was such an integral part of it.
I'm only exaggerating a TINY BIT here. And not about the part where Valve is a bunch of sellouts because they're updating a game that's given away for free. Yeah. People really are that stupid.
And seeing the same sort of squawks here about bunnyhopping being a "skill" has made me lose a little bit more faith in humanity.
Comments
It *CAN* be taken out by simply lowering the airaccelerate level, so if you run a server or have rcon you can effectively remove it yourself. Don't nerf one of the few good mods that still *HAS* the ability to StrafeJump though - DOD has stamina so you can't bhop, CS has slowed it to a crawl, and the other mods suck so they don't count.
Purelace - You add nothing to the conversation, please refrain from personal attacks. Removing an Exploit like BHing (yes it is an exploit, even sobe.dragon who supports bhing agrees it is) is hardly as disbalancing as leaving it in. Many people find aimbots entertaining, should they be allowed to keep the mod entertaining and fair? The only thing you were right about is that removing BHing will "invariably alter the balance between the races", it will put them on the level field they were intended to be on. Please, come back when you have your facts straight.
borf - if you do test the knockback on a normal jumping marine I'd like to know the results. I will test it myself once I have gotten home from work and can gather my clanmates.
To repeat for others who don't actually want to read the thread: Flayra has weighed in on the subject repeatedly and can be found in the "old" Bhopping threat that almost crushed the forum with it's thirty page weight. He has spoken that it does not fit the atmosphere of NS.
As for wether or not this will affect gameplay horrendously:
The proponents of BHopping say leaving it in will not unbalance sides, nor is it unfair as anyone can do it if they just learn how.
On the counter side: If it doesn't unbalance anything by staying in it really can't unbalance anything by being removed either.
So let's look at the points: It doesn't unbalance EITHER way. It ruins NS's atmosphere.
That's the clear and simple facts.
As before I've stated and I'll state again: Yes, I do bunny hop. I am not a "skillez OMG n00b SUYF! ffs!" who is whining or not whining. I'm stating what Flayra has said. And what the arguers have said on both sides.
I dont' mean to pick on you John but:
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<b>Veterans adapt.</b>
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[Edit]
You know, I tried to edit that last bit out because I just knew it'd probably be taken personal. Oh well. Sure. I'll see if we can scrim. I'd love the privaledge. You'll murder us. Congrats.
My previous statements will still stand wether or not you beat the holy hell out of us.
[/edit]
As for 'adapting'. It goes eitherway. To learn or unlearn.
To repeat for others who don't actually want to read the thread: Flayra has weighed in on the subject repeatedly and can be found in the "old" Bhopping threat that almost crushed the forum with it's thirty page weight. He has spoken that it does not fit the atmosphere of NS.
As for wether or not this will affect gameplay horrendously:
The proponents of BHopping say leaving it in will not unbalance sides, nor is it unfair as anyone can do it if they just learn how.
On the counter side: If it doesn't unbalance anything by staying in it really can't unbalance anything by being removed either.
So let's look at the points: It doesn't unbalance EITHER way. It ruins NS's atmosphere.
That's the clear and simple facts.
As before I've stated and I'll state again: Yes, I do bunny hop. I am not a "skillez OMG n00b SUYF! ffs!" who is whining or not whining. I'm stating what Flayra has said. And what the arguers have said on both sides.
I don't mean to pick on you John but:
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<b>Veterans adapt.</b>
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Hrmm I forgot to mention that I dont strafe jump that much either, and as for adapting, you needn't worry about things that dont concern you. My adaptablility has kept me dominate in this game.
Feel free to gather 5 of the best players you know and lets test MY adaptability.
and to quote my clanmate
[15:56] <sYn|Duck> that's the point... veterans adapt to bunny hopping being in the game
Amen.
Also note that Pong is a completely balanced game. I'll refrain from expounding upon the implications of that for some of the points others brought up in this thread. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Overall game atmosphere doesn't really matter, since it changes from map to map.
Overall game atmosphere doesn't really matter, since it changes from map to map.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Huh? Speak for yourself. I didn't see the marines in "Aliens" bunnyhopping down the hall. That kind of gritty, paranoid, deliberate atmosphere is very similar to NS when your squad is moving down a hallway. Now, if your point man is bouncing up and down like a rabbit on crack, well... it definitely invokes a different atmosphere for me. Call me crazy I guess.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
<b>Veterans adapt.</b>
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Don't worry about him - he stole that quote from me anyway <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> FW U scrub <3
StrafeJumping = Fun
NS = Fun
SJ + NS = Funnerer
If the intent is to get it removed, make a variable that would allow us to turn it back on, rather than hard coding it to be absolutely unchangeable. I don't want to have to go to TFC or some other lame mod to mess with BHopping. I think that is a perfectly fair and fine solution to the problem, is it not?
Oh, when this gets locked feel free to contune on the syn forums, syn.fatkao.com. Nobodies posts will be edited or any lameness like that so say what you want.
I'd definitely have no problem with that. More choices for the player are almost always a good thing... as long as they can easily determine which ruleset is in place. However, it depends on how integral Flayra et al feel it is to basic gameplay.
And for the record, I've never found strafejumping to be "fun". I'm glad you do, but everyone has their own feelings about it and I figured I'd share mine since I'm sure you wondered. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I already said that. While atmosphere obviously isn't a big issue for some, it IS for others. It happens to be the main reason I started playing NS... the background and atmosphere. I hadn't played a FPS game for at least a year prior to NS's release. Sure, the gameplay has kept me around, but to discount atmosphere completely would be a huge disservice to the developers/mappers/writers.
I really cannot see that bunny hopping has any part in the game, and that the game will be any worse without it.
when everyone has the knowledge and capability to bunnyhop, would it be such a topic of discussion?
disregard any personal opinions on the matter, and understand that for most people, the problem with bunnyhopping lies within the inability to do so.
but in so doing, they simply render themselves obsolete. adaptation and improvisation are key to this game. if something does not work for you, you must change and try something new until something works. as an alien, if a marine is bunny hopping, would you go at him straight on? or wait until a corner? if a marine isnt bunny hopping, would you go at him straight on? or wait until a corner? in either case, a corner will prove to be the better option of the two. the reason being, tactically, it is better because of the blind side that the marine has.
but the entire base of this discussion, in my eyes, is not bunnyhopping itself, though that is where the topic has led to; but actually in the "marine knock-back" issue. fix that, allowing marines to be killed as they should be, and there would be no more topic of discussion.
im too lazy to type out more, so if my idea seems unfinished, thats because it probably is, and i have other things to attend to.
I can't speak for "most people", but my problem with BHing has nothing to do with my inability to do so. I know how to do many things in NS that can gain me an advantage, but I make a conscious choice NOT to do them. The reasons I refrain from certain activities usually fall into one of two categories. 1) I consider something an exploit or 2) I consider it harm the atmosphere of the game for either myself or other players. Having an enjoyable game is paramount in my opinion and all of the most enjoyable games I've had were ones that EVERYONE enjoyed. Again, that's just me though. Games for me are entertainment... not a job. If they aren't enjoyable, then I don't really care if I win or lose. I just won't play them, and will move on to something that IS fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I can't speak for "most people", but my problem with BHing has nothing to do with my inability to do so. I know how to do many things in NS that can gain me an advantage, but I make a conscious choice NOT to do them. The reasons I refrain from certain activities usually fall into one of two categories. 1) I consider something an exploit or 2) I consider it harm the atmosphere of the game for either myself or other players. Having an enjoyable game is paramount in my opinion and all of the most enjoyable games I've had were ones that EVERYONE enjoyed. Again, that's just me though. Games for me are entertainment... not a job. If they aren't enjoyable, then I don't really care if I win or lose. I just won't play them, and will move on to something that IS fun. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well said.
Why should bunny-hopping be in the game, and, say Street Fighter 2 style special moves shouldn't be? They're both about as relevant to the game.
Why are all the bunny hopping fans so upset that its being removed? Is the game going to be so much less fun without it?
And, finally, to the "I bet its just those people who cannot bunny hop who complain about it." I did a search on these forums, and the first mention of bunny hopping appears after it was annouced it was being removed in v1.1. So it would be far more accurate to say "Its all those people who can bunny hop complaining about it being removed."
The devs don't want it, I don't want it, and I have yet to see a convincing reason to be given for it to be included.
So, adapt to the change, as you're all so proud of saying.
EDIT: typo
So I'm all for BH in my yard just not in NS. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
Agreed. Bunnyhopping was never designed to be part of the game. It gives an unfair advantage to exploiters and actually breaks many intended features of the game, such as movement speed. Skulks are supposed to move faster than marines. Marines should rely upon phases to cover vast distances, not bunnyhop. The fact that a player looks so silly doing it should be an indicator that it was never intended to be part fo the game.
use the BH wisely my peoples. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is another great place to use the BH. How many of u take your dogs there and they always run 100 miles an hour and u cant keep up. Well ever since I've used the BH me and my dog do many laps around the park and I dont lose a step with the big guy. The BH has really improved my animal/human relations.
THANKS BH!!!!
I'm all for the BH. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
First off Bhop and strafe jump are very, very difference methods of movement. Just as gliding is. 3 Completely (well, gliding and strafe jump is similar) different things. Strafe jump is just strafing while jumping, no turning. Bhop is the most complicated, using only strafe and not forward, swinging it back and forth to get more air speed and jumping constantly to not loose it from touching the ground. Gliding is between the two, flicking your mouse towards the corner of your screen while performing your strafe jump. If one were to remove Bunnyhop, it'd be best to remove gliding as well, however that's harder, unless a stamina bar is put in. Secondly bunnyhop was <i>not</i> capped at 140%, it was capped at 170%, a rather significant increase in speed. You are just short of going twice as fast at peak speeds. Strafe jump can only get you to nearing 130%, gliding, 135%, but, instantly, unlike bunnyhop and strafe jump, which takes a while to build speed.
Before I go on, I feel it necessary to say that I do bunny hop. In TFC I conc and bunnyhop all the time, it's mostly what the game is for me. I play offense, so it's mostly grenade and conc use, and bhop, with a little shotty aim. I bhop in TFC, strafe jump in Quake 3, and do all sorts of other fun movement bugs, in unrealism games. (Unreal, Quake, TFC.) NS, CS, DoD, all strive for realism, rather, in the sense that you aren’t propelling yourself at insane speeds over insane distances, taking very little damage from the fall, all done by the use of one huge explosion which did no damage itself. It's a futuristic, Sci-Fi game, yes, but when it comes right down to it, it's far more realistic than TFC or Quake 3.
Having said that, I wouldn't mind in the least if it was squashed entirely from NS. I laugh at people that complain about it in TFC, in NS my views change quite drastically.
Bunnyhopping silently is super powered, letting you go from base to a far away hive (lets say viaduct on nothing), in a matter of seconds, with out being detected. A few times I've been bhopping silently on some random server, and a skulk would run right past me, or under me sometimes, and not even notice since we were turning a corner. Obviously, this is the most important aspect of bunny hop to remove.
Bunnyhopping backwards is super powered, letting you run from a fade, onos and for a short distance skulk (unless it's bunnyhopping too, or bearing celerity), fire at him and keep your distance. Worse if the person is good at bunnyhopping, he can jump in a circle once he's in a corner, and end up behind the fade, possibly before the fade knew what hit him. Naturally, this is the part of Bunny hop that needs to be removed the most.
Bunnyhopping forward is super powered, as marine, Letting you nearly keep pace with a skulk, out run a fade, gorge, onos, or walking lerk, and it's fairly easy to start up, with a good glide, going from zero to 135 or more percent of the max speed in one jump. Phase gates and jetpacks lose a lot of their use when the marines are almost fast enough to make them useless anyway. Because of that, Bunnyhopping for marines needs to be removed more than any other bunnyhop problem.
Bunnyhopping forward is super powered, as alien, Letting skulks turn corners at insane speeds, coming from nowhere and killing a pack, then bunny hopping to the other side of the map, only to do it again. A bunnyhopping skulk with celerity can span large rooms in two jumps, with out it, 3. Fades can bunny hop silently, only having to worry about the occasional random hissing sound they make, making the silent bunnyhopping balls of death even more deadly than silent bunnyhopping marines. Gorges can easily outrun marines, making them much harder to kill, making the slowest alien a decent bit faster than your average marine. All these things make alien bunnyhop the most powerful, and, the one that should be removed the most.
As you can see, all aspects of bunnyhop cause rather large imbalances in the teams. In high level clan matches where both clans should know how to bhop anyway (since bhop is a large part of being high level... At least, in TFC and from what I've seen in NS as well), there should be some option to enable it if both clans want. Some people like it, some people don't, so why not make it an option, if you can indeed fix it? If it came down to gone or not, rather than an option I personally would rather see it gone, because if it's still around, people will do it, and while people do it, people who can't will complain, then large flame battles start of it, ruining the fun for everyone.
I figure I'd put my opinion in as the probable single person who both can bhop rather well and still doesn't want it around. In general it's people who can bhop vs. people who can't. As far as the Veterans adapt statement goes... I believe that it's nice for people to know how to bhop. They can like it, they can hate it, they should learn how to do it. People who don't know how to bhop's opinion hold slightly less water than those who do, simply because those who do know what it's like. They see someone getting an unfair advantage and obviously assume they are cheating, which I won't say my opinion, as, it's just a random opinion. Most people don't like bhop, until they can bhop. Many people who I deal with used to hate me for bhopping, so, I offered to teach them. 2 accepted, I taught, they learned, they now bhop, and get flak like I did from people for bhopping. Before I could bhop I thought it was unfair, letting people go faster than I could. I can understand that people don't want to learn, for whatever reason, but for those who do, I don't doubt you'll see what I mean after you learn to bhop.
Does it add another dimension to the game? Not in NS. NS can be a long, boring game, yes. Bhop does speed it up, yes. However, Bhop also causes huge problems not with the respawn->combat structure, But when you can't hear them combing, in combat they can out run you, and they can get away from combat very fast. This tips the balance to marines, simply because it's harder to bhop and fight with the alien, do to the nature of their attacks. Fades are another story, though, they will pretty much beat a bhopping marine like a drum anyway, regardless as to if they can bhop or not. In addition I think it was intended to be somewhat long and slow paced, for whatever reason. Is that a good thing? Sometimes. The combats are far and few between in the early game, save on small maps like Tanith and Eclipse. Most of the early game is building up your team, working towards the mid and late game where the combat starts to matter. By then the aliens should have movement chambers, leap, adrenaline, celerity, blink, flight, whatever, the marines should have jps and phase gates, so bhop, while still annoying, isn't as game shattering. It doesn't negate the fact that it'd probably be best removed from NS. After all, all you bhoppers can always go play TFC if you really want to bhop that bad. When I want long, thinking, strategy, I play NS. When I start to get bored of that, since it's long and thinking and I have a short attention span, I find some TFC server to bhop and conc and whatever else.
For a short touch on the knock back issue, that is another large problem, especially because with armor 1 you can take 3 skulk bites. This means that after the first bite you get a large amount of backwards momentum, which you can start to skim from. (For those who don't know, skimming is jumping constantly to keep momentum, without using any other method of gaining speed, again, capped at 170%.) That’s a good distance and still more to come, a long distance for a skulk to close before the second bite, which only causes a repeat of step 1. Most marines that can bhop/skim (not all) have enough hit scan aim to shred a skulk by the time he closes the distance twice with a lmg.
After this long post though, whatever anyone says, including me, probably won't matter. Flayra will probably still do whatever he was going to do. I just thought I'd clear some things and throw in my rather extensive opinion with it.
Actually Im not talking about bunnyhopping while shooting. Im talking about marines just bunnyhopping to get a speed boost. The base speed of a marine is there for a reason. Its not meant for them to be able to jump faster. So I think you missed my point. Yes it does require skill to be able to jump and fire at the same time but not to bunnyhop from point A to point B.
The most impressive bunny hopping I have seen is on the speedruns over at <a href='http://www.planetquake.com/qdq' target='_blank'>Quake done Quick</a>. I can honestly say (and I have played a lot of HLDM, NS, TFC and other stuff) that I have never seen this performed ANYWHERE else. It is a highly skilled technique which also requires better than average ping and framerate. This alone would be enough to qualify for removal IMO, because it puts anyone with a slow connection/old computer at further disadvantage.
On the other hand, you may be referring to bunny hopping as the technique of jumping at the exact instant you hit the ground (this is what I think you are all referring to). It gives you maybe a 50% increase in speed, but really requires little more skill than an ability to spam the jump key. It's pretty trivial IMO, and should not be removed if that would offend so many loyal NS players.
All that coolness just to watch a bunch of marines bounce up and down wherever they go. Bounce up and down when they are being attacked. Bounce up and down when they are attacking. Bunny hopping has become such a popular tactic, teamplay has taken a backseat to the ability to jump and fire at the same time.
As far as I'm concerned HLTV is instrumental in making NS a more spectator friendly teamplay mod, this means leagues like CAL will be more interested in making NS an event at one of their tounaments. But will this make a bunch of hopping marines entertaining to watch? In the NS manual we are made to believe sticking in squads of 4-5 Marines is best. In reality a squad of 2-3 skilled bunny hopping marines can do everything but major Hive attacks.
I don't deny that jumping, aiming, and firing takes some skill. However, as a spectator sport how exciting is that tactic to watch? Could the decline of DM based tournaments be an indication of where bunny hopping, a DM-based skill, is going?
<i>I'm posting this thread in the HLTV Thread too, I think it is relevent</i>
I agree with it.
Flayra obviously agrees with it.
Debating it now is moot, all this is just an opportunity for the people who depend on it (or at least think it gives them the advantage in game) to whine some more, and the anti-BH'ers to rub it in their face/state how its not a real skill/say it doesn't belong in NS.
Get over it, the point is moot.
I'll be bunny hoping to work tomorrow.
As is stands now, marines who jump/hop backwards while shooting do not incur the movement speed penalty which they would if they just walked backward normally, making it much harder for skulks to close the distance.
Yes, that was a hot topic back in the day. People were screaming about how Valve was an evil moneygrubbing corporation because they wanted to remove bunnyhopping, removing bunnyhopping took all the skill out of the game, made it so any newbie could win just by clicking randomly, and made the game move much slower so that you could barely get from one end of your base to the other in under five minutes. And the Counter-Strike team, once beloved by all, were obviously sellouts because they were involved in the removal of bunnyhopping. Nobody would ever play CS again, because bunnyhopping was such an integral part of it.
I'm only exaggerating a TINY BIT here. And not about the part where Valve is a bunch of sellouts because they're updating a game that's given away for free. Yeah. People really are that stupid.
And seeing the same sort of squawks here about bunnyhopping being a "skill" has made me lose a little bit more faith in humanity.