I Just Played The Worst Game Ever
Rayonic
Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12274Members
Join Date: 2003-01-14 Member: 12274Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Three hives lost!</div> Man, I just had the worst game of NS I've ever played, or ever will play. It was a small game, basically 3v3 though it fluctuated during the course of the game (this was on NS_Nothing, I believe. The one with Waste Handling and SatCom). Anyhow, let me break it down for you:
At what I call the "high point" of the game, the aliens had all three hives, most of the res nodes on the map, and full Def and Mov chambers. The Marines, I believe, had full upgrades and tons of turrets in their base. A clear-cut victory, right? Wrong.
So I and another player on the team go Onos, but I first decide to clean out the double res-nodes at Reactor Room. Okay, right? So I'm there, just took out the TF, and some unupgraded marine starts shooting at me from the water. I jump in and gore him, and he immediately starts laughing. Why?
I can't get out. I'm stuck in the pool of water. Scratch one Onos, I guess. :/
I morph into Gorge and jump out of the water to build the res nodes and some towers. Some marines stop by, the team's other Onos comes to help, and he gets stuck on some towers. In the mean time, supposedly our third team member gets stuck also, but I don't know what class he was a the time (another Onos, possibly). Okay, so we can always re-evolve, right? Not if a jetpacker sneaks into SatCom and HMGs the hive to death before anyone can get there. I swear to God, that hive was dead in under a minute. But I digress...
The story goes that as soon as we get the hive up again, another is quickly HMG'd down by a jetpacker. Lather, rinse, repeat. Really quick kills, even with our def chambers healing all the time. I guess upgraded marine weapons do a lot of damage. Not surprising, since I also saw a group of eight offense and defense chambers wiped out by a single clip of grenades. (eight total, not eight each)
On some maps it's really quite impossible for the Kharaa to guard against a lone jetpacker killing a hive. Especially on this map, what with the rafters far above Waste Handling, the unblockable vent into SatCom, and the back way(s) into Fusion Reactor. Perhaps this isn't so big a problem with more people, but you've still got to be fast because those hives die quick (much quicker than a comm chair, that's for sure).
I was pretty ticked at the outcome, to say the least. I felt like I was robbed of victory, both by game bugs, and by jetpacking lameness. Are hives really that fragile? I would assume it'd take more that <b><i>one guy</i></b> to killl a hive (unless that guy had a lot of time), but I guess I was proven wrong.
Any comments?
At what I call the "high point" of the game, the aliens had all three hives, most of the res nodes on the map, and full Def and Mov chambers. The Marines, I believe, had full upgrades and tons of turrets in their base. A clear-cut victory, right? Wrong.
So I and another player on the team go Onos, but I first decide to clean out the double res-nodes at Reactor Room. Okay, right? So I'm there, just took out the TF, and some unupgraded marine starts shooting at me from the water. I jump in and gore him, and he immediately starts laughing. Why?
I can't get out. I'm stuck in the pool of water. Scratch one Onos, I guess. :/
I morph into Gorge and jump out of the water to build the res nodes and some towers. Some marines stop by, the team's other Onos comes to help, and he gets stuck on some towers. In the mean time, supposedly our third team member gets stuck also, but I don't know what class he was a the time (another Onos, possibly). Okay, so we can always re-evolve, right? Not if a jetpacker sneaks into SatCom and HMGs the hive to death before anyone can get there. I swear to God, that hive was dead in under a minute. But I digress...
The story goes that as soon as we get the hive up again, another is quickly HMG'd down by a jetpacker. Lather, rinse, repeat. Really quick kills, even with our def chambers healing all the time. I guess upgraded marine weapons do a lot of damage. Not surprising, since I also saw a group of eight offense and defense chambers wiped out by a single clip of grenades. (eight total, not eight each)
On some maps it's really quite impossible for the Kharaa to guard against a lone jetpacker killing a hive. Especially on this map, what with the rafters far above Waste Handling, the unblockable vent into SatCom, and the back way(s) into Fusion Reactor. Perhaps this isn't so big a problem with more people, but you've still got to be fast because those hives die quick (much quicker than a comm chair, that's for sure).
I was pretty ticked at the outcome, to say the least. I felt like I was robbed of victory, both by game bugs, and by jetpacking lameness. Are hives really that fragile? I would assume it'd take more that <b><i>one guy</i></b> to killl a hive (unless that guy had a lot of time), but I guess I was proven wrong.
Any comments?
Comments
Im on a cable connection and a pretty beefy machine, so it sure as hell wasnt lag. The hive seemed to be 100% (and from the way the Alien team was cursing, it may have been their main).
We actually went on to win the game, and kill every hive with nothing but about 5 guys and a bunch of HMGs. All of the other hives seemed to go down about equally fast. Once again, no upgrades, fully healed hive.
they should just make onos a little smaller just so you dont get friggin stuck half the damn time..
no seriously though the JP thing might be a little too powerful but its not lame. If you had time to get 3 hives you had time to throw some web down at the hives and some OC's. Now thats not enough to stop the best JPers but it'll make em work really hard for it. I'll admit it's hard to be everywhere when you only have 3 players. This case seems to be a problem of experience not balance. No ofense. Oh and the map you are talking about is ns_tannith. Keep practicing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the onoi getting stuck I know, it sucks. Best way I found to deal with it was to get the team gorge to build a mov chamber nearby and use that to get out. Doesn't work in the water though I think, unless it was right on the edge. Wait a sec, can you build in water? I've never tried...
no seriously though the JP thing might be a little too powerful but its not lame. If you had time to get 3 hives you had time to throw some web down at the hives and some OC's. Now thats not enough to stop the best JPers but it'll make em work really hard for it. I'll admit it's hard to be everywhere when you only have 3 players. This case seems to be a problem of experience not balance. No ofense. Oh and the map you are talking about is ns_tannith. Keep practicing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but I am very experienced at this game, you dweeb. I'm telling you that the Kharaa have a serious problem defending their rather fragile hives from lone Marine operatives. Especially in NS_Tanith (thanks for the correction), which affords a marine safe, direct lines of fire at both the SatCom and Waste hives.
That is to say, there is absolutely no offense/defense chamber configuration that can prevent those two hives from being gunned down by a marine in a nearby vent. The only hope is personal intervention on the part of the team, which can take a little while. They might not be nearby, and it's hard to kill a marine in a vent anyway (regardless of the hitbox bug).
Oh, and webbing the vents generally assumes that they want to get out of the vents, not just sit inside and shoot. Though it's not like welders are expensive anyway.
Yes, you can.
Haven't you ever had one of those hilarious sieges in Bast where all the alien hives are gone but 3 gorges set up tons of defs in the underwater vent to constantly heal them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Went downhill from there.
Basically, the Onos is a very nice idea, but very flawed in practice. This is due to HL engine limitations, there's not much the team could do about it except for resizing it to something like fade size.
Nice idea, if I could just get there before the hive is dead. Yes, even using movement chambers.
I've also never had a problem with onoi getting stuck at the hive when they mov chamber back to it. Mind you, I hardly ever see them and yes, there is an issue with them getting stuck.
Now I'm off to build underwater <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nice idea, if I could just get there before the hive is dead. Yes, even using movement chambers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ahem web the hive before the jetpackers come <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
If you're really that concerned, sit a single fade/lerk at each hive and send the rest of the team off as whatever they want to hit the remaining marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<i>Of course</i> I had defense chambers at the hive(s), what do you take me for? And no, they didn't take out the chambers first, just blasted the hive quickly. When I got there, I found all my buildings intact, except for the hive.
Oh, and an alien at each hive? You forget that there was a total of three people on the team at the time. I even said that this might not be such an issue with bigger teams, though it could still be.
Haven't you ever had one of those hilarious sieges in Bast where all the alien hives are gone but 3 gorges set up tons of defs in the underwater vent to constantly heal them <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
hehehehehe a bunch of us did that on nano one time lol
No "anger" or "denial", just indignation. An unlikely but plausible conspiracy of events led from certain victory to quick defeat. The stuck Onoses was really the turning point of the game, but what happened afterward was only slightly less frustrating.
Perhaps in all your map-name-remembering wisdom you could explain to me a chamber/web configuration that could actually stop a marine from shooting the Satillite Communications hive from inside the vent? (Not flying up to the top of it, but shooting from inside the vent. You don't seem to grasp this small but vital detail.) Waste Handling is not much better, with two (not as well placed) vents, and a very high ceiling with convenient rafters.
I don't actually have a problem with harassment from vents, actually. I just don't like the fact that I had all of 30 to 50 seconds (I should have timed it) to actually save a hive that had defense chambers under it. Hives seem to last much longer under siege attack than HMG fire. Is that purposeful?
me(gorg) and 3 skulks took out 4 hmg/ha guys with webbing, now if i was the marines' commander i'd be hella ****, but at the time i was laughing like an idiot. pwned.
moral of the story is to use webs as soon as u get em on strategic locations,such as smaller rooms that jetpackers have to go through to get to the hive, and make sure to patrol those locations to "refill" the webs. oh and also setup some OCs and DCs there. at least that could prevent you from rambo jp/hmg marines.
You we're complaining that your hives we're dying quickly, I suggested def towers. I'm sorry that they didn't help. You stated that you had movement towers, did you have a network to each hive? Did you have them at forward positions? Did you have walls set up to block marines getting out of their base?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and an alien at each hive? You forget that there was a total of three people on the team at the time. I even said that this might not be such an issue with bigger teams, though it could still be.
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I "forgot" something you never told me. I always assumed you we're talking about at least an 8v8 game, you never stated it was that small. In larger games, my suggestion still stands. In the smaller games, have one alien (fade or lerk for perferance) hive guarding. Use the mov chambers you obviously have at each hive to go between them to the one that's under attack. Deal with the jetpacker. If two onoi can't take out the marine base when there's only a comander and a marine left there to defend then there's something wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps this isn't so big a problem with more people, but you've still got to be fast because those hives die quick (much quicker than a comm chair, that's for sure).
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This is an illusion, I'm pretty sure they both have the same number (10,000hp or very close) Point is that most of the time the com chair is being hit by single, powerful attacks like skulks bites or fade claws that do a large amonst of damage but attack fairly slowly compared to a fully upgraded hmg spitting out multiple rounds per second. Hives would seem to be weaker, but this isn't the case. It's just when they are attacked they're generally being hit with high level equipment. Try goring a com chair with primal scream as an onos. It will put it in persepctive.
All valid points, but it was quite late in the game and victory was supposedly assured. They sieged away three mini-bases near their base before we all decided to go Onos and stomp em. Our getting stuck and the gunning down of the first hive happened in rapid succession. I quickly decided to build more movement chambers after the first hive came under attack, but unfortunately that particular hive was the one responsible for the Movement chambers. The other two were assigned to Def and Sens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I "forgot" something you never told me. I always assumed you we're talking about at least an 8v8 game, you never stated it was that small. . . . If two onoi can't take out the marine base when there's only a comander and a marine left there to defend then there's something wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean to sound so hostile to you. I did initially say it was a 3v3 game, most are larger, so it's an easy point to miss. Once all our Onoses and the third hive died, we were pretty much screwed. Fully upgraded marines are <i>quite effective</i> against two-hive aliens. I suppose this is a sign that the game is balanced, actually.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->. . . Try goring a com chair with primal scream as an onos. It will put it in persepctive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have, and I'm pretty sure it takes longer than how fast an upgraded HMG takes out a hive, but I'll have to pay closer attention next time I do it. Also, it's not like you can avoid taking turret fire as you gore the chair, unless you take out the defenses first. In certain locations a marine can safely plunk away at a hive without fear of the automated defenses.
Try to find servers with /unstuck mod running - server admins, why not add this mod, or if you prefer the /stuck mod.
It sounds like you made a mistake and the marines took full advantage of it, if you had hit the marines base rather than waste time at reactor then you might well have won, the marines could not have attacked you hive with 2 ha/hmg guys to leave the comm to defend base from 2 onos. 2 ono's and a gorge can make a terific base killing team. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Upgraded hmg can take down a hive in under 2 clips so if there were 2 of them they could have killed the hive in 10seconds of concetrated fire. Fairs fair it was your job to make sure they could not concentrate their fire. A jp marines has little armour and will be dead in 2 or three OC hits, some webs and a WOL at right key location would have stopped a JP'er ever getting through. Finally, webbing is horribly under-estimated. 2 methods, along the floor to catch walking marines as they try to run past OC, across key areas to drop JP'ers into OC line of sight.
See the attached image WOL examples to make your hives virtually impenetrable
1-3 protecting waste handling - in order of importance
4 protect fusion - yes I know there is still access through sat com
5-7 complete the job and by the time you have three hives you should be able to knock these out in no time
Another thing to note in small games (also in larger games, but with more players it's less of a concern) is that you should try to keep track of all of your enemies. Get skulks to parasite anyone who just spawn in, or wherever you can. If you don't know where 2 guys are and you figure one is in the comm chair (sometimes the comm leaves to help attack), then there is 1 guy that could be infiltrating your territory. You won't know unless you he actually fires on one of your structures, so it's a good idea to scout the map out until you find where that other enemy is. The webbing on the roof also ensures that they can't sneak past your OTs so effectively, though it won't last the whole game so you need to check those spots sometimes.
If they don't have a massive turret farm in their base, then try to sneak in there and take out their buildings. A prototype lab would cost them their jetpacks. An observatory is 20 res down the drain in the shortest attack time of all the buildings. These will ensure that the marines have to spend more time either buildings up their base defence or staying at the base to build a new building (and both spending more money on that rather than offensive stuff).
So I feel your pain and I hope this'll help somewhat.
no seriously though the JP thing might be a little too powerful but its not lame. If you had time to get 3 hives you had time to throw some web down at the hives and some OC's. Now thats not enough to stop the best JPers but it'll make em work really hard for it. I'll admit it's hard to be everywhere when you only have 3 players. This case seems to be a problem of experience not balance. No ofense. Oh and the map you are talking about is ns_tannith. Keep practicing. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No offense, but I am very experienced at this game, you dweeb. I'm telling you that the Kharaa have a serious problem defending their rather fragile hives from lone Marine operatives. Especially in NS_Tanith (thanks for the correction), which affords a marine safe, direct lines of fire at both the SatCom and Waste hives.
That is to say, there is absolutely no offense/defense chamber configuration that can prevent those two hives from being gunned down by a marine in a nearby vent. The only hope is personal intervention on the part of the team, which can take a little while. They might not be nearby, and it's hard to kill a marine in a vent anyway (regardless of the hitbox bug).
Oh, and webbing the vents generally assumes that they want to get out of the vents, not just sit inside and shoot. Though it's not like welders are expensive anyway. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Rayonic, obviously you are a noob. The map with SatCom and Waste handling is called ns_tanith, not nothing. Also, you should have went fade to bile bomb the turret farms, not onos. Second, you should have put more offense and defense around and under the hive. Third, web in front of the offense where they will try to JP over it. Though if you were smart enough, you would make a tower that wouldnt allow them inside with JP anyway. Fourthly, I am awesome.
And now onto the forum's lesser half...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Rayonic, obviously you are a noob. The map with SatCom and Waste handling is called ns_tanith, not nothing. Also, you should have went fade to bile bomb the turret farms, not onos. Second, you should have put more offense and defense around and under the hive. Third, web in front of the offense where they will try to JP over it. Though if you were smart enough, you would make a tower that wouldnt allow them inside with JP anyway. Fourthly, I am awesome.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, you can't count. You supposedly made five points, not four.
Second, we needed a little more armor against those fully upgraded HMGs -- Fades are not invincible, even with Lerk cover. I know because we lost quite a few trying to take their base (before we decided to take the third hive.)
Third, more D chambers wouldn't help too much in that situation, the HMG worked too fast. My only hope was to build an elaborate construction of vent-blocking chambers along with strategically placed webbing. But why go through all that trouble when we were supposedly just about to win?
Fourth, they were coming in through the vents, not flying over my offense chambers.
Fifth, you have an attitude problem. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with your faux-intellectualism., but keep in mind that such ridiculous posturing doesn't work outside of high school, okay?