<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The most impressive bunny hopping I have seen is on the speedruns over at Quake done Quick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original Quake done quick run was done pre-hopping (or pre-widespread hopping) and doesn't involve any hopping at all. It does however have masses of just about every other movement skill available in QW. Its been a long time since i kept track of the QW speed run scene, so if QdQ has been remade, there may be a new version involving hopping, but the "famous" run involved none.
Yes, some of the jumps done in QdQ are fps dependant, but this does not apply to NS jumping, as we have no rocket/grenade jumping/assisted hopping/etc. In QW, the height gained from a weapon assisted jump varied greatly with your fps, in NS there are no weapon assisted jumps. Jetpacking in NS can be fps dependant, but hopping etc aren't.
Bunnyhopping (My definition of the word anyway) refers to the ability to negate floor friction by jumping the instant you touch the floor. This in itself does very little for your speed. When most people in this thread mention hopping for speed, they are talking about the combination of air-control assisted acceleration, and bunnyhopping to maintain the speed gained in the air by negating friction. 'Spamming' the jump button as you move forwards DOES increase your speed in NS slightly, but this is nothing to do with hopping - simply jumping in NS increases your forwards speed by a barely noticable amount. In order to get real speed out of a bunnyhop you need to make use of air acceleration:
In QW, and consequently in HL, you have the ability to change your direction of motion while in the air - you can pivot in the air and redirect your current speed in a new direction. As an example outside the context of hopping, a skulk can leap into the air, then turn quite a sharp 90 degrees in the air and continue moving at high speed through the air in a new direction. This can be used to leap around corners. To change your direction of motion in the air you need to first provide an axis to pivot around, this is usually done with strafe, but you can use any movement command as long as the direction of movement is perpendicular to your current motion. You then turn your mouse, so that the direction you are holding begins to push away from your current direction of motion - as you do this, you will swing yourself around in the air, as if you just grabbed an imaginary flagpole and are swinging around it.
For most people, this boils down to 1 simple situation: Jump forwards while looking in the direction you are going, hold strafe in the direction you want to turn, rotate your view to look where you want to go. This is quite simple in itself, although navigating the level like this takes some practice, it is more like controlling a racing car and you need to think about the line you take when entering a corner :)
This can be taken to a higher level by using a variety of different 'flagpoles'. For example, if you hold nothing but +forward when in the air, you can then put your view 90 degrees to the direction you are moving in, and increase this angle steadily to turn in the air. This differs from the previous example because now instead of looking where you are going, you are looking in towards the center of your turning circle - this is used to hop in a circle around something you want to fire at. You can of course use any direction you like to turn with, and transition between them in midfight, to hop forwards, backwards and sideways while keeping your target in your crosshairs. Now that that's described - air acceleration is a result of this form of turning. By pivoting in the air at a certain speed, you can increase your forwards momentum like being catapulted. The amount of acceleration you get from the turn depends on how close you are to the "sweet spot" of turning speed - try to turn too fast and you lose speed in the air. There is also a speed limiter in place which was added by valve to limit hopping speed, once you pass 170% of your base movement speed you flip a switch, when you next touch the floor, your speed will be lost and you will be dropped back down to base speed.
Bunnyhopping for speed in NS and other HL mods then, involves jumping the instant you touch the floor to avoid friction, while turning yourself in the air to accelerate as you hop. A good hopper accelerates faster than a poor hopper, because his turning is more precise, a good hopper is also able to better use the skill in a fight, by changing the direction he pivots from to manouver while firing.
Strafe jumping is a simple trick that involves jumping and strafing at the same time, because of the way the engine works this gets you a small speed boost. In HL, any speed gained from strafe jumping is minimal at best, most acceleration in HL comes from turning in the air.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Gliding is between the two, flicking your mouse towards the corner of your screen while performing your strafe jump. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've not heard the term gliding before, but it sounds like you are talking about what i usually hear being called a circle strafe jump. A circle strafe jump is the best way to start a bunnyhopping series, by combining a couple of accleration tricks as you jump for the best starting jump speed. The pivoting phenomena i explained above works to a similar degree when you are on the floor, however on the floor it is hampered by friction. A circle strafe jump basically "pivots" on the floor to gain a small ground speed boost before you press the jump button, the jump button is pressed as you gain the speed from circling so you carry this speed into the air rather than losing it to floor friction. It isnt really a different technique, just an additional way of using the same physics ideas.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Secondly bunnyhop was <i>not</i> capped at 140% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 40% figure was given by me, and if you read the context i mentioned it as an average over a distance, not a maximum. Due to the way the HL speed limiter works, although 170% is the maximum speed, a bunnyhopper does not hop around at 170% speed. Everytime you reach 170%, you will then be dropped back down to base speed as you land. Coupled with the time to accelerate again this means over any distance, the average total speed boost you can expect is around 40%.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Before I go on, I feel it necessary to say that I do bunny hop. In TFC I conc and bunnyhop all the time, it's mostly what the game is for me. I play offense, so it's mostly grenade and conc use, and bhop, with a little shotty aim. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You would have loved Q3F beta1h, unfortunately the mod is now almost dead, and concing has since been crippled. For the last 2 years i played a very conc-orientated Q3F scout for a topclan, the physics in that game were such a joy to use. A TFC player who went in for movement skills would have loved some of the additional stuff in Q3F, we had QW style ramp physics etc.
Now onto the subject of removing hopping....
Will everyone who made some silly comment about hopping "changing the balance of NS", please wake up. Hopping is here and now, it is being used and is a tool in the toolbox of the clans which play the matches that set the strategies and development of everybody who plays the mod. Wether or not it was in the original design plan, your imaginary design plan of "how the game is supposed to be" or written on some stone tablet buried on the ground does not matter. It has been in the game from the beginning and it has been available for match use since the beginning - If clan matches right now are providing rewarding gameplay, then they are doing so with hopping in the picture. It is part of the game balance because it is being used, and that is all that matters.
A developer only creates a framework for a game to exist within, the strategies, tricks and tactics that evolve from that framework are created by the players. A developer can never plan the gameplay that will emerge from whatever he creates, if he ever can plan it accurately, you are dealing with an incredibly simple game. Bunnyhopping is a result of the game's framework in the same way that the 2 minute shotgun rush is a result of the game's framework, both are player-created uses of the game system. There is no "way the game was meant to be". If the player-created stategies that emerge can be considered, after extensive testing, to have a negative impact on the game, then the framework is changed. Changing something because it was not originally thought of is not a valid argument, if you believe it is, then NS needs completely redesigning, to be more more like Pong. If Flayra announced tommorow that there was a damage calculation error, and that skulks bites were 'meant' to only do 10 damage, changing them back to the 'intended' value does not re-balance the game. Saying it would, or that removing hopping would re-balance NS makes the assumption that somewhere, perhaps on an ancient piece of parchment, there is some description of how NS is meant to be played down to the tiniest detail, and that this description is completely flawless and perfect. We have played for the past god-knows-how-long, with 75 damage skulk bites, the same way we have played since NS's release, with the ability to bunnyhop. This is NS. Changing the game framework requires an argument of why the new framework is better than the old one, and "It wasn't meant to be that way" is not an argument. Flayra can ignore us all and remove hopping because he didn't originally think about it, or he can say he's removing it because he doesn't think it looks very nice, he has the power to do anything he likes with the game. But that doesn't make the logic behind it any less ridiculous.
The ability to hop silently is something *i* would like removed (and my argument for its removal is based on its effect on the gameplay, not something silly involving motion pictures by fox). But i do not agree that regular forms of hopping, for either race, need to be removed. Sodum, i think your descriptions of "super powered" hopping are massive exaggerations, and would point to clan games played by topclans like sYn (Who have people capable of hopping perfectly well) to back that up. While hopping is seen in these games, no where can you ever see it playing a significant role in the outcome of the game. Its role is small, but i feel that although it does not have much of an impact on the game, it adds a degree of movement skill to the game that makes it more interesting to play. I consdier this sort of movement skill to have more depth than alot of the factors that are currently very important in NS, but as it stands, hopping has a very far back-seat in a NS game. A back seat is better than no seat at all, why remove it when it adds additional movement options, and does not detract from any game element? (With the exception of the silent version).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For a short touch on the knock back issue, that is another large problem, especially because with armor 1 you can take 3 skulk bites. This means that after the first bite you get a large amount of backwards momentum, which you can start to skim from. (For those who don't know, skimming is jumping constantly to keep momentum, without using any other method of gaining speed, again, capped at 170%.) That’s a good distance and still more to come, a long distance for a skulk to close before the second bite, which only causes a repeat of step 1. Most marines that can bhop/skim (not all) have enough hit scan aim to shred a skulk by the time he closes the distance twice with a lmg. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hopping off the acceleration from a skulk bite is very unrealistic, if the speed you get off the knockback is over 170% of base you will not be able to 'skim' at all, due to the engine immediately capping you back to base speed when you land. And having to time the hop means that if the knockback catches you off guard, or if you have a high ping, it isnt practical to expect to land the hop. Still, the knockback really adds nothing to the gameplay, because apart from prompting marines to jump alot at close range, it can't be used tactically by either side. Either it throws you a good distance away or it doesn't, pretty much random as you can hardly position yourself in relation to the skulks jaws. An advantage given to 1 player that occurs on a practically random basis, and adds no additional tactical element to the game? Good enough argument in my book to remove it.
euw long post, can't be bothered to proof read it. Just ignore typos, it's the Internet after all ;)
I think it all boils down to whether or not the end result of what NS is to become follows the guidelines on the "About NS" page. Flay did say over the radio interview that he expects NS in its final state to be as that concise page states it to be. With that in mind, Flayra might have had a grand design for everything--except he never took account of bunny hopping. I agree that the hop should stay, but I disagree that it should be kept the way it is now. Things like the silent bunny hop need fixing, and as to a possible nerf or an alteration on the bunny hop--that's all up to flayra. Does it fit the ultimate vision of what NS is to be? Seige cannons were changed in 1.04 to require spotters--but hey, one can argue that that more truly follows the tenents of a marine's "teamwork driven game" with less emphasis on "fighting skills".
In my view, the About NS page is practically the constitution of what NS is/should be, and that all changes to the game should be seen as a direct extension/extrapolation of the basic tenents from that document. Should skulks keep bunny hopping? The problem with arguing this way or that for the bunny hop all derives down to whether or not it fits into what NS is all about (I liken it to constitutional challenges, in legal terms).
Many great arguments can be made to either side of the bhopping school of thought, but it is really the "judge" (Flayra) who makes the final decision here. And whatever he decides on for future versions of NS, I think we should all support the solution he comes up with.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hopping off the acceleration from a skulk bite is very unrealistic, if the speed you get off the knockback is over 170% of base you will not be able to 'skim' at all, due to the engine immediately capping you back to base speed when you land. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for finally explaining to me why bhopping and knockback even had a relationship.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The ability to hop silently is something *i* would like removed (and my argument for its removal is based on its effect on the gameplay, not something silly involving motion pictures by fox). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aren't Class based movement speeds, and bypassing them by bunny hopping effecting gameplay? If Clan A and Clan B are exactly the same in all respects (I know not realistic but bear with me) except for bunny hopping isn't it reasonable to say that Clan A has an advantage because they can bhop?
Flayra and team will do what they feel is best and regardless of what they do, we will have to live with it or stop playing. I truely can't see many people quitting just because they can't bunnyhop anymore. I wonder if this thread can win an award for discussing one of the hotter topics while haveing very few Flaming idiots.
"While atmosphere obviously isn't a big issue for some, it IS for others. It happens to be the main reason I started playing NS... the background and atmosphere. "
Not to stereotype, but I have noticed quite a few "RPG" gamers on these forums, especially those with anime avatars. I'm sure many of them would agree with you, revering atmosphere over than gameplay, shallow learning curves and equal skill over technical mastery of the game, form over function, etc..... We don't take turns to attack in fps games, if you can't handle speed, then leave. You say that bhop has no place in the game, I say that your type of gamer has no place in any Half-Life game.
People focus too much on the marine vs skulk issue of bhopping. This isn't that huge a problem, apart from the aforementioned knockback. The problem with bhopping is the way it interacts with game constants such as respawn time. For example: "WOW! We just got really lucky against that large group of aliens! Let's go kill their hive!". Consider - if they bhop, they make it to the hive before enough skulks have respawned to defend it. If they don't, they don't. In another example, the marines are taken down the second building hive. If the skulks bhop, they make it in time to save the hive. If they don't, they don't.
IMO, it's the relationship with in game constants that causes bhopping to be a balance issue. Added to the fact that I think that it frankly screws up the atmosphere of the game, I'll be glad when it goes. For the record, yes I can bhop. No, not that well, but enough that sometimes it just gives me the extra time running from that last skulk to reload and kill it.
EDIT: I play this game a lot for the atmosphere. That's the reason I don't have my gamma set to 'uber', I keep r_drawviewmodel set to 1, and I rarely bhop. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the fact that it's a highly skill based game, just that I <i>also</i> appreciate other areas. Basically, this isn't DM. It's an RTS with living units. It's a game that should be slower than DM.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hopping off the acceleration from a skulk bite is very unrealistic, if the speed you get off the knockback is over 170% of base you will not be able to 'skim' at all, due to the engine immediately capping you back to base speed when you land.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's when people whip out the C-hop (crouch hop; if you don't know, don't ask, it's another lame movement bug, far worse than bhop ever could be) scripts and super lame up the knock back. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, I did play quake 3 fortress, not to mention the first quaketf. I've been exploiting movement bugs since the dawn of time. (Doom 1 to the max.)
Circle strafing is... well, as much as most people want to say it's not the same thing, really, it is. Gliding is elaborate strafe jumping, circle strafing is elaborate gliding, although the speed between Circle strafejump and gliding is negligable. On the 'flagpole' description of bunnyhop, that's fairly accurate although unless I'm mistaken a large part of bunnyhops physics involves airstrafe, which requires the use of the strafe keys. This is why you can't bunnyhop sideways through use of forward and back, it's a bit more complicated, using only one strafe key. In addition, 'good bhoppers' (not me) can get to 160-170 and start to just hop in a straight line, not gaining or losing speed... I always lose speed though, so I personally end up going up and down between 130 and 160.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example: "WOW! We just got really lucky against that large group of aliens! Let's go kill their hive!". Consider - if they bhop, they make it to the hive before enough skulks have respawned to defend it. If they don't, they don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think alot of people over estimate Bhop. It can make or break a game in the long run, maybe. But it won't make a team kill a hive where a unbunnyhopping team wouldn't. Not unless the alien team as a whole are just really unlucky, or managed to get killed by a low number of people and there were others in the area of the hive. Remember, a bunnyhopping marine is <i>not</i> cause for someone to go to the ready room. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--heathenSlayer+Feb 5 2003, 10:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (heathenSlayer @ Feb 5 2003, 10:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Not to stereotype, but I have noticed quite a few "RPG" gamers on these forums, especially those with anime avatars. I'm sure many of them would agree with you, revering atmosphere over than gameplay, shallow learning curves and equal skill over technical mastery of the game, form over function, etc..... We don't take turns to attack in fps games, if you can't handle speed, then leave. You say that bhop has no place in the game, I say that your type of gamer has no place in any Half-Life game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who are you to determine who or who doesn't have a place in this game? For someone who seems so intent on the mentality that bunny hopping is an integral part of this game, isn't it just the slightest bit ironic to you that the developer of the game has taken it out?
I find it amazing how off topic this has become. The bottom line is, most people don't really care about bunny hopping. It can either stay or go. Really I personally don't care, nor do I see why people care so much. It's been around since wolfenstein. Get on with your lives people.
That being said. As long as they don't nerf jumping in general, then they can play with the bunny hopping all they like. The problem here is the knockback. And I agree. Even when jumping, I don't think the marines should be tossed all the way across a room. (I once saw a marine get thrown from the mid level in refinery right across to the other wall. I was like wtf now I gotta go chase him to finish him off?). And if the knockback doesn't change, then something should to make this a "bad" thing for the marine. Like them not being able to fire as if they were webbed or something like that (ie being stunned by the knockback, would make a marine think twice about hopping around I supposed).
FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited February 2003
I partially agree with the knockback sentiment. But don't worry, it used to be a LOT worse. Currently, the marine has a small chance to turn a fight around, depending on how clever the alien was when judging knockback. It also means that skulks cannot just press themselves up against a marine snd start biting, they have to actually pay attention, which just adds another small factor in there which I like, something which can be learnt over time.
On the other topic, however... <start rant>
I do not see how people can feel good with themselves when they win by using things such as r_drawviewmodel, pistol scripting, and bunnyhopping. All require you knowing a little 'trick' which new people cannot learn for themselves, and this must be blatantly obvious to those using them. Are people that unkind and uncaring towards others that they would go so far as these means <i>just</i> to win in a <b>game</b>?
I cannot bunnyhop, because I feel a community which forces me to learn an engine exploit just to win (against the atmosphere and balance of the game) is not a community I wish to be involved in.
Call me a n00b all you like. I certainly consider it another stepping stone to the '1337-n00b divide' which ruins so many games. And I wish for it to be gone. Maybe then the 1337 could show us just how 1337 they are, and adapt.
<!--QuoteBegin--Fam+Feb 7 2003, 08:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fam @ Feb 7 2003, 08:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I do not see how people can feel good with themselves when they win by using things such as r_drawviewmodel, pistol scripting, and bunnyhopping. All require you knowing a little 'trick' which new people cannot learn for themselves, and this must be blatantly obvious to those using them. Are people that unkind and uncaring towards others that they would go so far as these means <i>just</i> to win in a <b>game</b>?
I cannot bunnyhop, because I feel a community which forces me to learn an engine exploit just to win (against the atmosphere and balance of the game) is not a community I wish to be involved in.
Call me a n00b all you like. I certainly consider it another stepping stone to the '1337-n00b divide' which ruins so many games. And I wish for it to be gone. Maybe then the 1337 could show us just how 1337 they are, and adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's called playing to win, sausage.
No matter how much they improve the game, there will always be another thing "that is cheap," that enables the person who knows it to win over the person who doesn't know it. Deal.
If you are playing to win, you will find these ways, and you will use them. That's all there is to it. That's not looking at it from a leet perspective, that's looking at it from the You're Really Serious About Winning department.
Don't kid yourself if that you are serious about winning when you confine yourself to a certain "non-cheap" playing style.
Bunny hopping doesn't break the game. Learn it, live it, love it. And when they remove it, you adapt, and find the next best thing that gives you the advantage.
There are limits, yes. But bunnyhopping doesn't even begin to touch upon the difference between "a game breaking bug, or a cheat," and a "small advantage."
It all breaks down to those who are creative and can find these advantages and use them, and the people who whine about it because it doesn't fit thier definition of fair play. The only person who even remotely has it in perspective is TeoH, who I gotta give some props to.
And for all you sausages, you guys gotta wake up. Give us some real challenge:
i read those sirlin.net articles i agree completely with the author. It just seems to me that people will try to find any excuse for when they lose, as long as its not THEIR OWN DAMN FAULT. Blame something else, not yourself, its not your fault you suck, those people dont play in your style of "namby pamby, do anything creative and if you beat me you cheat" style. Its not your fault you suck, those other guys are just "cheap".
I got news for ya. If you get owned, its your own fault. If you cannot kill you suck. If you think something like bhopping is unfair, then you are a sausage.
sry didn't read the whole thread, I'm and not even sure if I'm in the right one <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> but I think someone said that if you can't fight without hopping you need to develop serious strafing skills.
Well I do have some measure of maneuvering skills, honed especially in Unreal Tournament and more recently and relevantly Wolfenstein, and I find that certain skulks can still kill me.
I almost circle strafe many times and most decent skulks will track me. The ones that do kill me in such situations, aside from imperfections on my part, I have wondered about - and I now know that they must have much higher mouse sensitivities than the ones that die to me, since they turn instantly and bite me rather than tracking me successfully but too slowly.
So if jumping is taken out, against the best skulks marines will have no serious chance unless *maybe* in groups. As you've all seen entire groups of rines can be taken out esp. with the amount of noobs so simply removing jumping will cause serious problems.
PS Oh yes. It is definitely better to aim for practicality, balance, than for some ingrained idea of how things should be. After all, how *do* you know how things should be, what the environment would, should be like? Better to improve gameplay rather than propagate a stereotype - let the creators decide for themselves what image to project.
Perhaps the forced group mov't will contribute more to the imagined atmosphere of the game; perhaps going off alone will induce more of the pulse pounding anxiety it would in real life; nonetheless the creators have to think thoroughly on how best to change the game with regards to jumping.
Comments
The most impressive bunny hopping I have seen is on the speedruns over at Quake done Quick.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The original Quake done quick run was done pre-hopping (or pre-widespread hopping) and doesn't involve any hopping at all. It does however have masses of just about every other movement skill available in QW. Its been a long time since i kept track of the QW speed run scene, so if QdQ has been remade, there may be a new version involving hopping, but the "famous" run involved none.
Yes, some of the jumps done in QdQ are fps dependant, but this does not apply to NS jumping, as we have no rocket/grenade jumping/assisted hopping/etc. In QW, the height gained from a weapon assisted jump varied greatly with your fps, in NS there are no weapon assisted jumps. Jetpacking in NS can be fps dependant, but hopping etc aren't.
Bunnyhopping (My definition of the word anyway) refers to the ability to negate floor friction by jumping the instant you touch the floor. This in itself does very little for your speed. When most people in this thread mention hopping for speed, they are talking about the combination of air-control assisted acceleration, and bunnyhopping to maintain the speed gained in the air by negating friction. 'Spamming' the jump button as you move forwards DOES increase your speed in NS slightly, but this is nothing to do with hopping - simply jumping in NS increases your forwards speed by a barely noticable amount. In order to get real speed out of a bunnyhop you need to make use of air acceleration:
In QW, and consequently in HL, you have the ability to change your direction of motion while in the air - you can pivot in the air and redirect your current speed in a new direction. As an example outside the context of hopping, a skulk can leap into the air, then turn quite a sharp 90 degrees in the air and continue moving at high speed through the air in a new direction. This can be used to leap around corners. To change your direction of motion in the air you need to first provide an axis to pivot around, this is usually done with strafe, but you can use any movement command as long as the direction of movement is perpendicular to your current motion. You then turn your mouse, so that the direction you are holding begins to push away from your current direction of motion - as you do this, you will swing yourself around in the air, as if you just grabbed an imaginary flagpole and are swinging around it.
For most people, this boils down to 1 simple situation: Jump forwards while looking in the direction you are going, hold strafe in the direction you want to turn, rotate your view to look where you want to go. This is quite simple in itself, although navigating the level like this takes some practice, it is more like controlling a racing car and you need to think about the line you take when entering a corner :)
This can be taken to a higher level by using a variety of different 'flagpoles'. For example, if you hold nothing but +forward when in the air, you can then put your view 90 degrees to the direction you are moving in, and increase this angle steadily to turn in the air. This differs from the previous example because now instead of looking where you are going, you are looking in towards the center of your turning circle - this is used to hop in a circle around something you want to fire at. You can of course use any direction you like to turn with, and transition between them in midfight, to hop forwards, backwards and sideways while keeping your target in your crosshairs. Now that that's described - air acceleration is a result of this form of turning. By pivoting in the air at a certain speed, you can increase your forwards momentum like being catapulted. The amount of acceleration you get from the turn depends on how close you are to the "sweet spot" of turning speed - try to turn too fast and you lose speed in the air. There is also a speed limiter in place which was added by valve to limit hopping speed, once you pass 170% of your base movement speed you flip a switch, when you next touch the floor, your speed will be lost and you will be dropped back down to base speed.
Bunnyhopping for speed in NS and other HL mods then, involves jumping the instant you touch the floor to avoid friction, while turning yourself in the air to accelerate as you hop. A good hopper accelerates faster than a poor hopper, because his turning is more precise, a good hopper is also able to better use the skill in a fight, by changing the direction he pivots from to manouver while firing.
Strafe jumping is a simple trick that involves jumping and strafing at the same time, because of the way the engine works this gets you a small speed boost. In HL, any speed gained from strafe jumping is minimal at best, most acceleration in HL comes from turning in the air.
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Gliding is between the two, flicking your mouse towards the corner of your screen while performing your strafe jump.
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I've not heard the term gliding before, but it sounds like you are talking about what i usually hear being called a circle strafe jump. A circle strafe jump is the best way to start a bunnyhopping series, by combining a couple of accleration tricks as you jump for the best starting jump speed. The pivoting phenomena i explained above works to a similar degree when you are on the floor, however on the floor it is hampered by friction. A circle strafe jump basically "pivots" on the floor to gain a small ground speed boost before you press the jump button, the jump button is pressed as you gain the speed from circling so you carry this speed into the air rather than losing it to floor friction. It isnt really a different technique, just an additional way of using the same physics ideas.
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Secondly bunnyhop was <i>not</i> capped at 140%
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The 40% figure was given by me, and if you read the context i mentioned it as an average over a distance, not a maximum. Due to the way the HL speed limiter works, although 170% is the maximum speed, a bunnyhopper does not hop around at 170% speed. Everytime you reach 170%, you will then be dropped back down to base speed as you land. Coupled with the time to accelerate again this means over any distance, the average total speed boost you can expect is around 40%.
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Before I go on, I feel it necessary to say that I do bunny hop. In TFC I conc and bunnyhop all the time, it's mostly what the game is for me. I play offense, so it's mostly grenade and conc use, and bhop, with a little shotty aim.
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You would have loved Q3F beta1h, unfortunately the mod is now almost dead, and concing has since been crippled. For the last 2 years i played a very conc-orientated Q3F scout for a topclan, the physics in that game were such a joy to use. A TFC player who went in for movement skills would have loved some of the additional stuff in Q3F, we had QW style ramp physics etc.
Now onto the subject of removing hopping....
Will everyone who made some silly comment about hopping "changing the balance of NS", please wake up. Hopping is here and now, it is being used and is a tool in the toolbox of the clans which play the matches that set the strategies and development of everybody who plays the mod. Wether or not it was in the original design plan, your imaginary design plan of "how the game is supposed to be" or written on some stone tablet buried on the ground does not matter. It has been in the game from the beginning and it has been available for match use since the beginning - If clan matches right now are providing rewarding gameplay, then they are doing so with hopping in the picture. It is part of the game balance because it is being used, and that is all that matters.
A developer only creates a framework for a game to exist within, the strategies, tricks and tactics that evolve from that framework are created by the players. A developer can never plan the gameplay that will emerge from whatever he creates, if he ever can plan it accurately, you are dealing with an incredibly simple game. Bunnyhopping is a result of the game's framework in the same way that the 2 minute shotgun rush is a result of the game's framework, both are player-created uses of the game system. There is no "way the game was meant to be". If the player-created stategies that emerge can be considered, after extensive testing, to have a negative impact on the game, then the framework is changed. Changing something because it was not originally thought of is not a valid argument, if you believe it is, then NS needs completely redesigning, to be more more like Pong. If Flayra announced tommorow that there was a damage calculation error, and that skulks bites were 'meant' to only do 10 damage, changing them back to the 'intended' value does not re-balance the game. Saying it would, or that removing hopping would re-balance NS makes the assumption that somewhere, perhaps on an ancient piece of parchment, there is some description of how NS is meant to be played down to the tiniest detail, and that this description is completely flawless and perfect. We have played for the past god-knows-how-long, with 75 damage skulk bites, the same way we have played since NS's release, with the ability to bunnyhop. This is NS. Changing the game framework requires an argument of why the new framework is better than the old one, and "It wasn't meant to be that way" is not an argument. Flayra can ignore us all and remove hopping because he didn't originally think about it, or he can say he's removing it because he doesn't think it looks very nice, he has the power to do anything he likes with the game. But that doesn't make the logic behind it any less ridiculous.
The ability to hop silently is something *i* would like removed (and my argument for its removal is based on its effect on the gameplay, not something silly involving motion pictures by fox). But i do not agree that regular forms of hopping, for either race, need to be removed. Sodum, i think your descriptions of "super powered" hopping are massive exaggerations, and would point to clan games played by topclans like sYn (Who have people capable of hopping perfectly well) to back that up. While hopping is seen in these games, no where can you ever see it playing a significant role in the outcome of the game. Its role is small, but i feel that although it does not have much of an impact on the game, it adds a degree of movement skill to the game that makes it more interesting to play. I consdier this sort of movement skill to have more depth than alot of the factors that are currently very important in NS, but as it stands, hopping has a very far back-seat in a NS game. A back seat is better than no seat at all, why remove it when it adds additional movement options, and does not detract from any game element? (With the exception of the silent version).
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For a short touch on the knock back issue, that is another large problem, especially because with armor 1 you can take 3 skulk bites. This means that after the first bite you get a large amount of backwards momentum, which you can start to skim from. (For those who don't know, skimming is jumping constantly to keep momentum, without using any other method of gaining speed, again, capped at 170%.) That’s a good distance and still more to come, a long distance for a skulk to close before the second bite, which only causes a repeat of step 1. Most marines that can bhop/skim (not all) have enough hit scan aim to shred a skulk by the time he closes the distance twice with a lmg.
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Hopping off the acceleration from a skulk bite is very unrealistic, if the speed you get off the knockback is over 170% of base you will not be able to 'skim' at all, due to the engine immediately capping you back to base speed when you land. And having to time the hop means that if the knockback catches you off guard, or if you have a high ping, it isnt practical to expect to land the hop. Still, the knockback really adds nothing to the gameplay, because apart from prompting marines to jump alot at close range, it can't be used tactically by either side. Either it throws you a good distance away or it doesn't, pretty much random as you can hardly position yourself in relation to the skulks jaws. An advantage given to 1 player that occurs on a practically random basis, and adds no additional tactical element to the game? Good enough argument in my book to remove it.
euw long post, can't be bothered to proof read it. Just ignore typos, it's the Internet after all ;)
In my view, the About NS page is practically the constitution of what NS is/should be, and that all changes to the game should be seen as a direct extension/extrapolation of the basic tenents from that document. Should skulks keep bunny hopping? The problem with arguing this way or that for the bunny hop all derives down to whether or not it fits into what NS is all about (I liken it to constitutional challenges, in legal terms).
Many great arguments can be made to either side of the bhopping school of thought, but it is really the "judge" (Flayra) who makes the final decision here. And whatever he decides on for future versions of NS, I think we should all support the solution he comes up with.
Just my two cents.
Thank you for finally explaining to me why bhopping and knockback even had a relationship.
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Aren't Class based movement speeds, and bypassing them by bunny hopping effecting gameplay? If Clan A and Clan B are exactly the same in all respects (I know not realistic but bear with me) except for bunny hopping isn't it reasonable to say that Clan A has an advantage because they can bhop?
Flayra and team will do what they feel is best and regardless of what they do, we will have to live with it or stop playing. I truely can't see many people quitting just because they can't bunnyhop anymore. I wonder if this thread can win an award for discussing one of the hotter topics while haveing very few Flaming idiots.
Not to stereotype, but I have noticed quite a few "RPG" gamers on these forums, especially those with anime avatars. I'm sure many of them would agree with you, revering atmosphere over than gameplay, shallow learning curves and equal skill over technical mastery of the game, form over function, etc..... We don't take turns to attack in fps games, if you can't handle speed, then leave.
You say that bhop has no place in the game, I say that your type of gamer has no place in any Half-Life game.
IMO, it's the relationship with in game constants that causes bhopping to be a balance issue. Added to the fact that I think that it frankly screws up the atmosphere of the game, I'll be glad when it goes. For the record, yes I can bhop. No, not that well, but enough that sometimes it just gives me the extra time running from that last skulk to reload and kill it.
EDIT: I play this game a lot for the atmosphere. That's the reason I don't have my gamma set to 'uber', I keep r_drawviewmodel set to 1, and I rarely bhop. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the fact that it's a highly skill based game, just that I <i>also</i> appreciate other areas. Basically, this isn't DM. It's an RTS with living units. It's a game that should be slower than DM.
That's when people whip out the C-hop (crouch hop; if you don't know, don't ask, it's another lame movement bug, far worse than bhop ever could be) scripts and super lame up the knock back. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
By the way, I did play quake 3 fortress, not to mention the first quaketf. I've been exploiting movement bugs since the dawn of time. (Doom 1 to the max.)
Circle strafing is... well, as much as most people want to say it's not the same thing, really, it is. Gliding is elaborate strafe jumping, circle strafing is elaborate gliding, although the speed between Circle strafejump and gliding is negligable. On the 'flagpole' description of bunnyhop, that's fairly accurate although unless I'm mistaken a large part of bunnyhops physics involves airstrafe, which requires the use of the strafe keys. This is why you can't bunnyhop sideways through use of forward and back, it's a bit more complicated, using only one strafe key. In addition, 'good bhoppers' (not me) can get to 160-170 and start to just hop in a straight line, not gaining or losing speed... I always lose speed though, so I personally end up going up and down between 130 and 160.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example: "WOW! We just got really lucky against that large group of aliens! Let's go kill their hive!". Consider - if they bhop, they make it to the hive before enough skulks have respawned to defend it. If they don't, they don't.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think alot of people over estimate Bhop. It can make or break a game in the long run, maybe. But it won't make a team kill a hive where a unbunnyhopping team wouldn't. Not unless the alien team as a whole are just really unlucky, or managed to get killed by a low number of people and there were others in the area of the hive. Remember, a bunnyhopping marine is <i>not</i> cause for someone to go to the ready room. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
You say that bhop has no place in the game, I say that your type of gamer has no place in any Half-Life game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who are you to determine who or who doesn't have a place in this game?
For someone who seems so intent on the mentality that bunny hopping is an integral part of this game, isn't it just the slightest bit ironic to you that the developer of the game has taken it out?
That being said. As long as they don't nerf jumping in general, then they can play with the bunny hopping all they like. The problem here is the knockback. And I agree. Even when jumping, I don't think the marines should be tossed all the way across a room. (I once saw a marine get thrown from the mid level in refinery right across to the other wall. I was like wtf now I gotta go chase him to finish him off?). And if the knockback doesn't change, then something should to make this a "bad" thing for the marine. Like them not being able to fire as if they were webbed or something like that (ie being stunned by the knockback, would make a marine think twice about hopping around I supposed).
Tyrsis
On the other topic, however... <start rant>
I do not see how people can feel good with themselves when they win by using things such as r_drawviewmodel, pistol scripting, and bunnyhopping. All require you knowing a little 'trick' which new people cannot learn for themselves, and this must be blatantly obvious to those using them. Are people that unkind and uncaring towards others that they would go so far as these means <i>just</i> to win in a <b>game</b>?
I cannot bunnyhop, because I feel a community which forces me to learn an engine exploit just to win (against the atmosphere and balance of the game) is not a community I wish to be involved in.
Call me a n00b all you like. I certainly consider it another stepping stone to the '1337-n00b divide' which ruins so many games. And I wish for it to be gone. Maybe then the 1337 could show us just how 1337 they are, and adapt.
I cannot bunnyhop, because I feel a community which forces me to learn an engine exploit just to win (against the atmosphere and balance of the game) is not a community I wish to be involved in.
Call me a n00b all you like. I certainly consider it another stepping stone to the '1337-n00b divide' which ruins so many games. And I wish for it to be gone. Maybe then the 1337 could show us just how 1337 they are, and adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's called playing to win, sausage.
No matter how much they improve the game, there will always be another thing "that is cheap," that enables the person who knows it to win over the person who doesn't know it. Deal.
If you are playing to win, you will find these ways, and you will use them. That's all there is to it. That's not looking at it from a leet perspective, that's looking at it from the You're Really Serious About Winning department.
Don't kid yourself if that you are serious about winning when you confine yourself to a certain "non-cheap" playing style.
Bunny hopping doesn't break the game. Learn it, live it, love it. And when they remove it, you adapt, and find the next best thing that gives you the advantage.
There are limits, yes. But bunnyhopping doesn't even begin to touch upon the difference between "a game breaking bug, or a cheat," and a "small advantage."
It all breaks down to those who are creative and can find these advantages and use them, and the people who whine about it because it doesn't fit thier definition of fair play. The only person who even remotely has it in perspective is TeoH, who I gotta give some props to.
And for all you sausages, you guys gotta wake up. Give us some real challenge:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlaytoWinPart0.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...ytoWinPart0.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart1.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart2.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart2.htm</a>
Tee hee... Someone calling a mod a scrub. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I got news for ya. If you get owned, its your own fault. If you cannot kill you suck. If you think something like bhopping is unfair, then you are a sausage.
Sorry but thats just how it is.
but I think someone said that if you can't fight without hopping you need to develop serious strafing skills.
Well I do have some measure of maneuvering skills, honed especially in Unreal Tournament and more recently and relevantly Wolfenstein, and I find that certain skulks can still kill me.
I almost circle strafe many times and most decent skulks will track me. The ones that do kill me in such situations, aside from imperfections on my part, I have wondered about - and I now know that they must have much higher mouse sensitivities than the ones that die to me, since they turn instantly and bite me rather than tracking me successfully but too slowly.
So if jumping is taken out, against the best skulks marines will have no serious chance unless *maybe* in groups. As you've all seen entire groups of rines can be taken out esp. with the amount of noobs so simply removing jumping will cause serious problems.
PS Oh yes. It is definitely better to aim for practicality, balance, than for some ingrained idea of how things should be. After all, how *do* you know how things should be, what the environment would, should be like? Better to improve gameplay rather than propagate a stereotype - let the creators decide for themselves what image to project.
Perhaps the forced group mov't will contribute more to the imagined atmosphere of the game; perhaps going off alone will induce more of the pulse pounding anxiety it would in real life; nonetheless the creators have to think thoroughly on how best to change the game with regards to jumping.
Banning the script does favor those who click fast - but NS favors those who can play NS well anyway.
and the post i made earlier belongs in the other hopping thread ^^