Question For Flayra

Lord_Requiem · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Regarding the original NS 4mb texlimit</div> Is this still in effect for map submission guidelines for Feb 14 or not? I noticed you said in a post in the thread about the maps that NS didnt support software rendering (something Ive never heard from anyone before, everyone claimed NS WAS supporting software hence the 4mb texture limit which was severely limiting to mappers since the maps are so bloody complicated), and also in your updated mapping guidelines you do not mention any texture limit at all.

Inquiring minds...

Revenant · February 2003

I think the submission for v1.0 went something along these lines:

<i>"Maps should have a maximum of a 4mb texture limit, anything over the limit is very unlikely to be selected . . . ."</i>

Ollj · February 2003

Aint it funny that ^Requiem^ asks about changing the 4mb texture limit?
He must be the mapper most far away from this.
I like the 4mb limit and have no problem with it.

Greedo · February 2003

Using more than 4MB is not recommended, just on general principle. There are dozens of NS models, and they all have high quality skins that need to be loaded too, in addition to the textures. So, in total, you're going to want to keep everything under 8 MB, as that seems to be the standard for most video cards on the low, low end market.

Try and stay under 4. It is possible.

Revenant · February 2003

Personally myself, when I first started NS mapping got a 4.5mb texture limit, with good thinking I used this method . . ..

If you do go near/over the 4mb texture limit, go through the official wads with wally, find textures that are 192x192 or 256x256 and that are included in your map. Use an image editor to re-size it to 128x128 then put them in your own wad. Will bring the texture limit down loads, so really there is no need to increase the texture limit.

Lord_Requiem · February 2003

Ok fine. No flame.

blueman · February 2003

Requiem, just ignore him but dont start a flame war.

Revenant · February 2003

Ollij: Requiem has a valid point, and I would like to say . . . <i>"Say something nice or don't say anything at all"</i>

Requiem: Don't retaliate. Don't comment back, just get a mod or admin to give him a few swift slaps. Also andromeda was a mighty fine map, my top 3 played custom maps are Ns_Lost, Ns_Europa and Ns_Andromeda. So if Ollij thinks your maps aren't good, he's far from it.

Ollj · February 2003

duh, I forgot andromeda. sorry.

Lord_Requiem · February 2003

And andromeda was the first map I ever made using worldcraft, I didn't even know how to make a box before that. I'm still somewhat new to ns mapping, but I've picked up enough now to make a good release quality map.

Andromeda wasnt, at least not in its current incarnation.

Asraniel · February 2003

:-) Ollj, that was also the first thing i was thinking when i was reading the topic, but that has nothing to do if requiems maps are good or not, its just a fact.... no flame or something like that. Im at 3.9mb in ns_napo... and i realy would like to use some more textures

blueman · February 2003

im using i do believe 5.5Mb of textures in Nirvana.....

Green_Meat · February 2003

This is a problem that I've run into on my map as well (4.5mb currently), and it's relatively small compared with most NS maps. The problem that I have is that I rely on textures and not brushes to show details and make different areas more destinctive. With the large number of oversized textures and the need to have infested / non-infested areas, it seems almost impossible to have a 4mb texture limit. Limit the map to that low of an amount and I imagine that it will turn out to have the same texture running everywhere.

As for the texture editing solution, that is a very eloquent solution to the problem, but there is a flaw in it: Reducing the textures causes them to lose quality as well. How do you prevent that?

Now, I come from HLDM mapping and my motto has always been: Make it run on the minimum spec PC (200mhz, no Vid Accel). However, Natural Selection won't work on the lowest end PCs. It will run, but it won't be playable. Now someone mentioned staying at 4 megs because it allows room on an 8 meg card for the additional textures need by NS. I challenge that thinking, because I frankly don't think NS would be worth playing on a system with such a low-end card. Not even if it's plugged into a P4-2.0 ghz PC. One res node and your playing on a Viewmaster. To say that your trying to stay backwards compatable is a little bit of a misnomer, since NS isn't as backwards compatable as you are trying to be.

Basicly, what I'm saying is that the original texture limit (2mb) was set to acomidate for the lowest of low-end PCs. The Zoners limitation (4mb) took into account that hardware had advanced to the next level (Voodoo2/3 & TNT). Natural Selection is designed for the next level after that (GeForce+). Why not act like it?

GSH

Revenant · February 2003

I agree my comp had a 8mb card, and because of the screwy new uk and eu laws i was only allowed to upgrade to a 32mbit pci at the time (6months ago) now i gotta save up for a geforce2 pci and ditch the tnt2 riva, altho the riva is better for ns imo, as many people i know using gf 3 and 4 agp on v.high end specs get problems with ns.

edit - I might want to stress again, to keep it under the 4mb texture limit make the texture the smallest possible size, usually with a 256x256 wall it looks almost the same on a 128x128 texture size, floors dont always seem to work out

gaggle · February 2003

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm always testing my levels in software mode. I like software mode, as it supports r_drawflat, and has no problems running windowed being multitasked, or moved to the secondary monitor

But I wouldn't say NS supports software mode for anything playable.

The alpha's aren't masked, there's no cursor in command mode, buildings are sometimes fullbright and slightly translucent (the alien Hive Sight upgrade thingie effect gone haywire), and the sprite health-rings warps around oddly deformed because they're not put through perspective correction. It works for testing your map, thus I do very much so like having software mode available, but I wouldn't say it works for actual gaming.

Also I've made levels before that uses up more than 4 meg (6 or 7 I think I hit), and I do so very much belive even software mode handled that just fine?

Still, it's Their™ game, I assume they have tested things, or have some higher purpose, for this 4 meg limit -- If the time comes my vote likely goes to having the limit removed, but until then I for one will just happily accept that we can not only enjoy NS, but also map for it <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

ChromeAngel · February 2003

You never know gaggle 1.1 might be the software mode compatability patch

watch_me_die · February 2003

This from Flayra:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Holy moley, I had no idea there were going to be this many submissions for v1.1. Don't fear, there will be an opportunity to add new maps with every client side update, which will probably be every couple months or so (just a guess). Be sure to read my map submission guidelines when submitting them to me! Also, it would be quite helpful for you to include the HLTV .tga and .txt file as well (no .bmp overview is needed <b><i>because NS doesn't support software rendering</i></b>). If anyone needs info on generating these files, have a look at this HLTV document that comes with the HL 2.3 SDK. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

...

gaggle · February 2003

Ahá!
The plot chickens!

err..thickens..

watch_me_die · February 2003

*bump*

Still hanging around for some answers from a Higher Source on this <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

tommy14 · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Greedo386 @ Feb 6 2003, 10:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Using more than 4MB is not recommended, just on general principle. There are dozens of NS models, and they all have high quality skins that need to be loaded too, in addition to the textures. So, in total, you're going to want to keep everything under 8 MB, as that seems to be the standard for most video cards on the low, low end market.

Try and stay under 4. It is possible. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
um, i don't think that model skins and texture limits go into the same RAM area, do they? because if so you would have LESS than 4mb of texture for sofeware mode users, since you need to keep space for the models. besides models are only loaded in during GAME, so the compilers would not report their skin size anyway.......

IIRC (and i don't always), models and their skins count only against the ~0.5M limit for ALL entity precache data, just like sprites and WAVs. not sure about SKY backgrounds, where they go.....

Revenant · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You never know gaggle 1.1 might be the software mode compatability patch </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

ChromeAngel are you trying to in-advertantly tell us that the Playtesters have actually got a RC capable of Software Rendering?

Lord_Requiem · February 2003

Flayra's direct quote said "NS does not support software rendering."

That does not mean it won't be added, but I know it can't be high on the priority list.

Faded_Tiger · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Revenant @ Feb 7 2003, 02:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I agree my comp had a 8mb card, and because of the screwy new uk and eu laws i was only allowed to upgrade to a 32mbit pci at the time (6months ago) now i gotta save up for a geforce2 pci </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I am assuming here that the screwy uk and eu laws apply directly to pci slotted graphics cards...I to am in uk but I am one of the lucky (yes I said lucky and mean it) who have a Geforce4 ti4600 (agp)

Now I am not asking that NS is made to my specs but I would like to see it climb out of the 4Mb range and if this is due purely to graphic cards and not the half life engine as I was lead to understand then why not have a pole built into the front end of the instalation (or use the results freely available from the half-life one) This will show that nowadays only a very small percentage of users have a low spec machine. Most are as mention in previous post are well into the geforce class of card. Whilst I too would hate to see a gamer slip off the end of the technology chain it surely must be better than holding back the maps to keep a few people hanging onto their old machines. I was fortunate (as well as lucky enough) to be able to spend a lot of money on my PC and would like to see my favourite game not slip into low spec obscurity for the sake of the few.

Before you all flame me I would like to say I used to have an old 286 machine and needed to upgrade to 486, then needed to upgrade to pentium( for internet play), then needed to upgrade purely for the art of gaming. I have paid my dues to the makers of PC's over the years and know it can be hard to upgrade but surely we can't allow something as good as NS be held back forever.

Of course this may all become academic when (eventually) Half-life2 comes out. After all it too will probably have a moddable engine (it's what made Half-life win all the awards) and that is sure to be set higher up the technology chain..

Faded Tiger
(all my LAN maps well over 4Mb)

p.s.taken so long to type thread may have moved on sorry......nope just forgot to read last page of posts as usual...ooops

Revenant · February 2003

Yeah tiger. Officially in the UK & EU computers are only allowed to be supplied with motherboards containing no AGP slots, only PCI. Then you got the Taylor made range, which some companies will stick to the law, others won't. Personally from my experience and my area most the guys are dodgy apart from Currys and Tesco, woolworths don't sell computers. We have 3 computer shops near us, 2 are dodgy, the other one is like the big companies "Stick to Regulations". Don't worry, I am building my own computer soon, and LAN room through a loft conversion. So I won't ever knock the EU & UK Laws again.

chubbysteve · February 2003

Why do they have this rule?

Revenant · February 2003

Personally I do not know, as I'm studying Law in 2 years time I will find out then. As far as I see the only regulation against it could be the fact it has more components than standard motherboards on a voltage system designed for standard compnents. It's confusing I know, but well I had to try and give an explanation, that might be right, it might be almost right, in actual fact it could be a load of bs, but well; all I say is that rule should be thrown out the window.

gaggle · February 2003

Just for the record, I don't think the number of gamers playing on low- and medium-end machines are as low as you make it out to be Faded Tiger. Various articles and messages states the reason for NS trying to stay compatible with realtivly lowend machines, is based on a poll that showed that a majority of gamers, or a good sized portion at least, were using these leaning-towards-crappyness computers.

Counter-Strike runs great on a wide range of computers, and I definitely think that's a well-sized reason for it's popularty. I don't blame NS for wanting to keep itself open for as broad an audience as possible.

But then also: I do blame NS for wanting to keep itself open, because some limits are just pains in the **** <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

No, err, what I'm trying to say is that I belive the reason for these various limits are grounded in reality, not some knee-jerk reaction from the Almighty Developer. I'm slightly puzzled by specifically the 4 meg texture limit, as I don't belive Counter-Strike ever has had that. I don't even remember software-mode crapping out with more than four megabytes of textures, though I suppose I <i>could</i> be wrong on that.

..ah, I don't know. I'm waiting, and hoping, for a response from the Powers That Be. Who knows, if we keep bumping this thread they might take notice.
.. even if the result is a closed thread and perma-bans of our accounts, then hey, at least we'll know they <i>noticed</i>! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Cash_Car_Star · February 2003

You're right, Counter-strike does not have a wad size limit. And look what happens on a public game of Torn, with a >7 mb wad. A good third of the players start skipping around horribly. The thing with texture memory is once you hit the limit your rig can handle, things start going down the tubes FAST. You go about a hundred polies over what you're supposed to keep, the player may notice a slight slowdown. But it compares nothing to going over the amount of texture mem a comp can handle. Due to the way it has to use resources to still run, it will have a major effect on playability. And that is why there is a 4 mb limit. Plus, if you go that much over it, you either have too many specific textures and/or you're having trouble nailing down the theme of your map and sticking with it.

Revenant · February 2003

I agree with Cash Car Star. Thats the reason why I and alot of other people go to servers like

"DE_Dust Only" or "Assault, Dust & Militia Mayhem"

Some people just don't want their computer doing things it can't handle and make them stressed. So I agree.

Green_Meat · February 2003

This doesn't make sense to me. On one hand people are saying that they want NS to be compatable with low-end PCs, yet at other times when these low-end PC users actually try to get the game to run smoothly, they are met with downright hostility.

I am thinking specificaly about a post from a month ago in which the poster was talkin about turning his drawviewmodel off so that he could get playable frames per second. All he was doing was trying to get a low-end PC to play, which it did when the models were turned off (so he said). He was called a cheater and royally flamed. He was told straight up that he needed a better PC and that that feature would be disabled and he would be S.O.L.

And yet, here we are talking about how to make our maps work for guys who are going to have to make these sort of tweaks to make the game playable no matter how our maps are made. If your going to make a policy like this, then it's a good idea to uphold that policy in all areas.

My point is simple: Either we support these players or we don't. Everybody needs to be on the same page and an up-to-date "Required System Specs" list needs be created so that topics like this one become moot.

CCS - I agree that maps should have a coherent theme, yet saying that having a theme will keep you under the 4mb limit is a bit of a misnomer. I have stuck with a theme myself, yet I can't bring myself to plaster the same 10 textures all over everything. It doesn't take long for that style of mapping to get bland and boring, for both the mapper and the gamers.

Quite frankly, a comparison with CS is completely irrelivent. CS was designed to run on min-spec PCs from the ground up. In many respects it's actually less of a burden on the client pc than standard deathmatch. Its design is compatable with min-spec PCs because of the simplicity of the game itself. This is not a virtue that NS shares with CS. NS is far more complex in its design and operation. So complex in fact, that I would say that even trying to make it backwards compatable will only result in the frustration of everyone and be a wasted effort.

I remember when game developement drove the hardware market. Now the hardware market shackles game developement.

Like I asked in my previous post: NS is a Next-Gen game, why not act like it?

GSH

Heist · February 2003

Here Here

Question For Flayra

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