Aliens When Only 1 Hive And Marines Have ...

Sturmsoldat · February 2003

Once in a public ns_bast we had only 1 hive .. and marines coming with HA's and HMG's ... all aliens said this is the end and they we're ready to push " f4 " but i thought this is game everything is possible.

i going near of second hive on roof with skulk and in a dark corner.. envoling to Gorge and building lot of offence and defence towers on that.. and lerks helping me against jetpack marines. then marines had little panic and ha,hmg guyz coming in my offences so they we're easy to kill with lerks / dc / oc .. we destroy phasegate and got 2 hives. then just half hour and we won with 3 hives..

never seen that before.. and it was fair teams 8vs8 all time. and now i say ns_bast is alien map.

comments!
ps.sorry about **** english.. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Paq · February 2003

Well actually marines should have keep attacking your first hive and try take it down before going to a second hive which is just only building <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

AcKz · February 2003

Even though your comment didn't really show how bast was an alien map, I too agree that it is very alien oriented, just for different reasons.

Sturmsoldat · February 2003

well there is lot of room to fly and build.. and marines maybe dont see you.. tell me your own comments about bast <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>

wlibaers · February 2003

Bast has things in favour of both aliens and marines. The marine spawn is easily defended, which is a big advantage for the marines. You can actually stop a fade rush before it gets into your base. Also, the marines can enter a vent system using the elevator, which can get them into engine and feedwater hives easily. The hives can be sieged from that vent. (some part of engine room even from the main base, though siege changes reduced that issue) Or, if the aliens use the vents too much, they can be welded which severely restricts skulk mobility. Also, the double resource is pretty close to the marine base. If the marines get feedwater hive, it can be fortified very well, and there's not much the aliens can do against it.

In favour of aliens: the underwater tunnel combined with defense chambers can provide marines with a nasty surprise. Refinery hive is very hard for marines to defend against lerks. A vent they lets you attack the marine spawn from above, until they weld it. Some quite good ambush spots for skulks.

Dunkin_Dynamite · February 2003

what I see is how overall behavior, strengths are affected by the size of the map.

Marines have huge advantage in phase. So long as marines are near phase they can phase to any phase location that's under attack; as long as every single marine is near a phase the whole team can phase to a location and defend it; or phase suddenly to another location and attack all at once.

However. In my opinion bast is in fact good for aliens. Why? The entire alien team, too, can decide to get involved, by waiting to attack all at once (or not, maybe they want to distract instead, etc). Marines still can only phase in one at a time. Good alien tactics can take advantage of this, so that an alien team working together can take out the phase, particularly if the teams are large. Once phase is down that marine post is screwed; here we see the other advantage of aliens - mobility.

I said marines have phases and can get anywhere fast .. but only places they phased. Why would they go en masse to a phased outpost? Maybe because it's under attack, and then we have the situation above. But first the phases have to be built. Bast is so big, and aliens move so much faster than marines, that aliens have map control .. permanently. Jetpaks can remedy this of course but aliens are likely to have 2 hives by then. Even if marines hold 2 hives aliens can take and hold plenty of res nodes, or at least deny resources to marines because marines cannot set up phases at each and every res node nor can they walk to each one quickly enough. Neither can they afford to turret up every res node. So marine res nodes all spread out on a large map, aliens move fast, can hit and run all nodes and deny res to rines. (there are windows to this of course; if marines already have team of jetpak + hmg to your hive oh well - but before they get that stuff you can keep them from getting rich)

With phases marine team can also suddenly show up elsewhere to attack all at once, but.. where? Phasing usually consists of lockdown; there is nothing there to attack yet. So can offensive phase. But to attack what? There is really only the hive. Offensive phasing is riskier on bast because of slowness of marines and speed of aliens - even if aliens respawn slowly unless marines push immediately aliens could mass together and try to take the offense phase post.

The result: if marines want to leverage their advantage, they get phase. But aliens move fast and have potential to deny that phase. Even if marines phase up aliens if work together might take it down; then marines have to walk all the way back there whereas aliens move extremely quickly and now they know the rines want that location. If aliens are unable to take the outposts they can still easily deny marines resources, and marines are too poor to breakout whereas aliens amass resources and perhaps can figure out a way to take down a phase outpost. And if that phase outpost goes down aliens might take that location for good. Whatever was there that was so important as to warrant a phase will help aliens bigtime <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

The counters of course are jetpaks and choke points; by chokepoints I mean gateways to places on the map. Imagine a single gate that guards a hallway that leads to an entire half of the map. If marines defend that gate (or vice versa, but let's assume marines) then they could lockdown their half of the map. I haven't studied bast so I don't know if such places exist.

Jetpaks might seem to be overused in any game but they are not used well enough; I haven't explored the details but I think a jetpak marine team working well might still be able to accomplish things on bast. Marine spawn however is easy to get trapped in. There is the vent but no others and the system isn't extensive. There is the spinning airlock which is potential deathtrap. There is the elevator which can be walled up.

Heavy armor is useless for various reasons. Too slow to defend, too expensive especially with resource denial by fast aliens, and even less ways out of an already trapped base.

On a side note,
I'd really like to see advanced tactics in NS, on any map.
Advanced tactics are lacking usually, eg attacking someplace as a decoy in order to distract from some sneaky activity elsewhere that the enemy team is sure to dislike. Having such a cool general would r0x0r, but there is the newb team factor.

Church · February 2003

Bast is the worst map for aliens in 1.04 IMHO.

The reasons? There are 2.

Reason number 1, the BIG reason: REFINERY, REFINERY, REFINERY! It is -almost- impossible to defend refinery against JP/HMGers! That place is so HUGE JPers can fly everywhere. Gorges would be hard pressed to build Offense chambers everywhere in that big room in the time before the mariens get JP/HMGs.

Reason number 2: The other hives, Feedwater and Engin (especially Engine) are not far from the mrines start. And Engine especially is easy to get to, AND easy to defend (and decently easy to seige I guess fromt he vents).

All marines have to do is hold Engine or feedwater (If aliens started in Feed, then marines go Engine, and vice versa) and then JP/HMG rush refinery before it goes up if the aliens manage to put a hive up, and then rinse and repeat on the alien starting hive. And if the aliens start on refinery? Game over man. Refinery is just HORRIBLE to defend from either team's point of view.

Dunkin_Dynamite · February 2003

Gorges often build towers at chokepoints into refinery. I mentioned not knowing chokepoints in earlier post but referred to them more as gateway to res nodes.

Jetpakers can still get in but smart aliens will web; besides mov't chambers might be up and aliens will have other hives.

I think the main conflict comes down to
- if marines can jetpak hmg rush fast and well. Then refinery goes down if it's there, unless good def by aliens which is entirely possible but needs 2nd hive and good team.

- aliens can nullify marines long enough. bast is huge but there are fewer alternatives for mov't at any place in the map. eg a huge reason is the vents are not very extensive, so that you are restricted to basically walking s a marine and aliens can block chokepoints anywhere, and can ambush you EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. lol

With the other hives jetpaking is not so much of a problem and the other issues outlined in the bigger post are more important. Those things point to alien advantage.

Church · February 2003

the point is to end the game before they can build chokepoints, and hopefully before the second hive comes up. If the second hive goes up, the marines will have a much harder time, and it also means the marines weren't doing the rush correctly.

Question · February 2003

JP/HMG rush is pratically unstoppable in ALL maps.

Not valid "marine advantage" for bast.

Church · February 2003

I'll admit that JP/HMG is very powerful and hard to stop, but in the Refinery hive it is just -disgusting- how easy it is for the JPers to dodge and take down the hive. Disgusting I tell you <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> "****, we can't reach them!"

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> *spit* *spit* "Ok this isn't working"

"Our hive is dying!"

All aliens: Oh crud...

Aliens When Only 1 Hive And Marines Have ...

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