Ns_nothing The Pinacle Of Unbalance?
Nether
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12530Members
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12530Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Free ride for marines</div> Im getting really tried of this map, its basically a lottery of: Aliens Start in Cargo Can go Either way
Aliens Dont Start in Cargo, Lose
The whole design of cargo hive is bad enough as it is with the 3 res points all of which are coverable by 1 tf. Marines need to defend just one outpost to get fast tech which is incredibly easy to do. So marines are pretty much guarenteed HA+Heavy weapons by the time aliens get fades, even before if the comm goes straight for equipment. Even if the aliens can get fades in time and counter any advancements marine still have just a single walk in the park outpost to defend which will get them to lvl 3 weps/armor in no time and after that give an almost constant supply of Heavy weapons and armor.
This is coupled with a hideously easy to attack viaduct hive. Any jetpacker can easily get down to via thorugh the large hallways that lead to it, then the hive itself is almost as bad a refinery a huge open space that JPs can just merrily fly around in while they kill the hive. Very easy to do happens alot. The walkway above aswell is a double edged sword a lone jetpacker can get a phase up there so easily and before aliens know it there are 6 marines in via hive
Or they can daisy chain the long vent that leads from cargo to via corridor, just put a group of marines in HA with welders send them into the vent with the front guy shooting the res tower and defence while each subsequent marine in line welding the guy infront as the comm spamms medpacks. It takes more than 4 fades to kill a chain like that otherwise they will just punch through into the side via corridor and setup a tf+phase.
Then theres the red room. This rooms sole purpose seems to have been to win the award for hardest room for aliens to assult in NS. Only skulks and lerks can reach this room. It can fit a PG, 2 TFs, Sieges which can kill Via hive and about 15 sentrys. This room is just so so difficult to take down once its built up by marines ive only ever seen it done once which took over and hour and the only reason it was possible was becuase there wasnt a marine stationed there to repair structures.
Power Silo is the worst hive to start in but not as bad to defend, the long enclosed corridors provide easy WOL defences but the hive its self its still extremely vunerable to jetpackers and the ledges on top can fit phase gates and turret factorys making it not a good hive either.
The average game goes marine take cargo, get tech and equip then take via without much trouble then finally move onto silo.
Changes that need to be made are remove the two outside res points at cargo, Nothing has alot of res points anyway these 2 are not needed at all they benefit marines 100 times more than they benefit aliens.
The red room needs to be smaller, if its around half the size it still achieves the purpose of being a hive attack point but without the ability to make it fort knox and bordering on impossible for aliens to take down.
As it is now if aliens dont start in cargo its pretty much a lost cause.
Aliens Dont Start in Cargo, Lose
The whole design of cargo hive is bad enough as it is with the 3 res points all of which are coverable by 1 tf. Marines need to defend just one outpost to get fast tech which is incredibly easy to do. So marines are pretty much guarenteed HA+Heavy weapons by the time aliens get fades, even before if the comm goes straight for equipment. Even if the aliens can get fades in time and counter any advancements marine still have just a single walk in the park outpost to defend which will get them to lvl 3 weps/armor in no time and after that give an almost constant supply of Heavy weapons and armor.
This is coupled with a hideously easy to attack viaduct hive. Any jetpacker can easily get down to via thorugh the large hallways that lead to it, then the hive itself is almost as bad a refinery a huge open space that JPs can just merrily fly around in while they kill the hive. Very easy to do happens alot. The walkway above aswell is a double edged sword a lone jetpacker can get a phase up there so easily and before aliens know it there are 6 marines in via hive
Or they can daisy chain the long vent that leads from cargo to via corridor, just put a group of marines in HA with welders send them into the vent with the front guy shooting the res tower and defence while each subsequent marine in line welding the guy infront as the comm spamms medpacks. It takes more than 4 fades to kill a chain like that otherwise they will just punch through into the side via corridor and setup a tf+phase.
Then theres the red room. This rooms sole purpose seems to have been to win the award for hardest room for aliens to assult in NS. Only skulks and lerks can reach this room. It can fit a PG, 2 TFs, Sieges which can kill Via hive and about 15 sentrys. This room is just so so difficult to take down once its built up by marines ive only ever seen it done once which took over and hour and the only reason it was possible was becuase there wasnt a marine stationed there to repair structures.
Power Silo is the worst hive to start in but not as bad to defend, the long enclosed corridors provide easy WOL defences but the hive its self its still extremely vunerable to jetpackers and the ledges on top can fit phase gates and turret factorys making it not a good hive either.
The average game goes marine take cargo, get tech and equip then take via without much trouble then finally move onto silo.
Changes that need to be made are remove the two outside res points at cargo, Nothing has alot of res points anyway these 2 are not needed at all they benefit marines 100 times more than they benefit aliens.
The red room needs to be smaller, if its around half the size it still achieves the purpose of being a hive attack point but without the ability to make it fort knox and bordering on impossible for aliens to take down.
As it is now if aliens dont start in cargo its pretty much a lost cause.
Comments
On paper preventing marines from getting cargo is a fantastic plan worthy of merit, ingame its a David Vs Goliath affair.
The average decent marine can take out 2 decent uncarapaced skulks before he goes down.
The entrances to cargo consist of a Vent which in all fairness without argument is impossible for aliens to attack from, a marine camping the vent cannot miss. Or theres the single medium sized doorway which marines can easily defend aswell.
The simple truth is its to easy for marines to control.
If on your server you can stop marines getting cargo consistently then your either playing with complete noobs or very poor players.
I'd say change the layout of cargo hive a bit, and maybe a few more kinks in the cargo vent and in the red-room vent.
Skulks can get to cargo BEFORE the marines 90% of the time because there is NOTHING for them to have to build at base. USE that information to your advantage, DON'T spawn rush the marines! Set up an ambush just outside of docking wing 1, learn the intricasies of the map. Stop assuming others can't do it vrs a good marine team just because you haven't figured out how to yet. I'd suggest you load the map and a bot or 2 to see what I'm talking about, scout the corridors out between cargo and the marine spawn, there are some really good ambush spots there.
Here is a tip for you, the res node on the walkway in docking wing 1 can be hidden under for a nice sneak attack, you can even bite a marine through it.
All it takes is one marine standing for a phase to be built and the whole marine team back in cargo b4 aliens have even finsihed respawning. Or some commanders build the phase at one of the outside res node ruining your little ambush completely forcing you to charge ready mairnes down a corridor.
You also assume I am suggesting you ambush in cargo itself, hate to shatter your illusions here guy, but keeping them OUT of cargo is the idea, so allowing them to GET to cargo is a failure in and of itself, please, time to re-evalute your strategies, and stop second guessing mine.
Of course I generally play on 8v8 servers and whilst getting those res points helps, marines can't tech as fast as they can on the big servers. They still tech pretty quick, but still aliens have a chance to take cargo on. But it's a slim chance, and an orgainised marine team will generally have little problem.
I think the red room should be decreased in size or, if not made so building's can't be placed there, at least lower it so that aliens other than skulks and lerks can get in there. As it is once the room is taken by marines it's extreamly hard for aliens to take back, as the fades can't do much and even with umbra lerk/skulk attacks are vunerable to gls.
Apart from the cargo hive situation nothing is still a good map.
Let me address some of things you've said:
1. Okay, first is how you say you can't win against the marines pushing for cargo. Now, I just have to say, that if you can't stop or at least slow the marines from taking this hive, then you need to reevaluate your skulking skills.
2. Red room is like a big ole hole in alien defenses. Aliens tend to take a preemptive approach now and just build tons of defense up there early on in the game. I don't understand how some people won't address a problem until staring it straight in the face. 50% I have to do this myself because everyone forgets. If aliens forget, then you deserve to die. Aliens ALWAYS have first access to this room.
3. Power silo is the easiest to retake of all the hives and second easiest to defend. This is mostly due to the ledges and very little room for marines to move around in. All it takes is a lerk or two on the ledges and some skulks on the ground to take this hive back. Aliens usually ignore this hive since they can take it back easily if they end up losing the battle for cargo. What I love most about this hive is the central RT. This makes it even easier for skulks since marines need go around the RT and be in direct sight of skulks in order to fire on them.
Every decent marine knows about the Threshold ambush spot. Every good marine is able to kill uncarapaced skulks in corridors unless skulks get the jump on them.
I'd say that nether is the one speaking with more experience and skill here. Your experiences sound like they come from publics, which is fine by me, I play also strictly on pubs, but I don't assume that the strategy that works there works against very skilled opponents (i.e clanners). I've massacred marine teams on pubs by ambushing lone marines or groups of two in Threshold and kept them from Cargo pretty much by myself. But not for a second have I thought that it was because of the strategy itself. It was because I was facing below average marines who didn't have the discipline to work together. It would've never worked against some clanners working together. I would've been gunned down trying to close the gap between us.
Secure the other unclaimed hive, make sure you keep the marines bottled up in their precious cargo, then take it all out with fades.
Is it easy? *shrug* Does it work every time? Nope. Does it work some times? Yep. All depends who's playing, and how the luck goes. Sometimes a marine can JP in and take out a hive solo. Sometimes a skulk can find an uncovered spot and take out something vital, like a phase or something. Them's the breaks.
Cargo is good / useful, but it isn't end-game if your enemy secures it. I know that for a fact, as I've faded my way through the marine-cargo base dozens of times... and I've lost similar games.
Remember these important things. A. No single spot on the map equals game over. B. If the marines secure something, you should secure something else. Don't throw yourself into their bullets, just slow 'em down while your gorge works on a hive. C. NEVER GIVE UP.
Ravlen
Basically, adapt your play style to the map. Red room's a liability, so make an effort to get a gorge in there and build. Web the roof above the entrances, and the openings, so that JPers can't get in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3 res points all of which are coverable by 1 tf. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're talking about that spot just outside of cargo bay, keep the marines out of it. You need that outpost cleared so that you can get cargo, anyway.
Sure, cargo is the key to the map. You can get to viaduct ludicrously easily from cargo (personally I think the vent should be impossible to get into without JP) but it's the key to the map for BOTH SIDES. You want cargo? Take cargo. How's it any different from trying to stop the marines from gaining ground? Pick them off on the way down, wait for them to burn res on the RTs there, frag the last few and take down the towers. Textbook resource depravation.
Every decent marine knows about the Threshold ambush spot. Every good marine is able to kill uncarapaced skulks in corridors unless skulks get the jump on them.
I'd say that nether is the one speaking with more experience and skill here. Your experiences sound like they come from publics, which is fine by me, I play also strictly on pubs, but I don't assume that the strategy that works there works against very skilled opponents (i.e clanners). I've massacred marine teams on pubs by ambushing lone marines or groups of two in Threshold and kept them from Cargo pretty much by myself. But not for a second have I thought that it was because of the strategy itself. It was because I was facing below average marines who didn't have the discipline to work together. It would've never worked against some clanners working together. I would've been gunned down trying to close the gap between us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Driftwood-
Hmm, seems you lack the same insight nether does. Let me elucidate for you, being in a clan does NOT make you a good player. NOT being in a clan does NOT mean you can't play if your life depended on it. I don't play on pubs, I play on a private server or clan servers ONLY. It does not MATTER if a good marine knows about the spots I refered to, coordination in a multifront skulk attack = dead marines. Perhaps you missed the impilactions of what I was saying, I was <b>talking</b> about setting up a situation in which skulks get the jump on the marines. You should learn from this mistake and realise that experience is displayed in what is not said just as much as in what is.
I'd also like to point out that the ambush spot I'm talking about is easy to use regardless of whether the marines expect it every time or not. The t junction and the hidden alcove mean you can attack first from either end and have 2-3 skulks then attack the backside of a marine group. Doesn't matter if they expect it or not, if the aliens have less teamwork skills than the marines then the aliens die. Clan server or no, the only way your going to face a strictly clan only marine team is if the clan stacks it, why play against such a group if your not with your clan as well? Why would a GOOD clan play like that either when it is really no contest against noobs?
I'd also like to point out that if you allow the marines to get past thresh hold befor attacking your asking to die, you should be attacking them as they go under you. Not having to close distance means they don't have TIME to get a bead on you.
Truthfully though getting power, via and holding redroom hard is just as good. Break the elevators so the marines can't come through if you are that desperate, marines move slow enough through the map though that it shouldn't matter. Once you get lerks you can umbra attack the marine base, assuming you don't get knifed or grenade spammed. Nothing like all maps has some problems, but there are worse maps than this one.
Besides, with the new siege rules in 1.04 the power of the red room is greatly deminished. Marines can't stay in there unless the com uses up a lot of rp scanning. If he has that kind of rp then you should have taken out his RT long before.
As for fades not being able to attack the red room thats where you start to use some thing I would like to call teamwork. A skulk can help a fade up the vent without to much problem.
There are some pictures on my homepage from a game I played on nothing. It wasn't a clan game but it was only the regulars from the server and we where picked since we where the best who played on the server. The com was *dead*chair, one of the best com:s I have ever played with. We started in silo and even though they used more or less all the tactics Nether desribed (jet packing the silo hive, taking cargo, sieging from red room) we still managed to win. Mostly because the only RT they could keep was the one in MS and the one just outside.
Take two hives, secure redroom, deny them any and all resources outside of cargo (including their marine start), get fades with lerk support=a good chance for the aliens to win. They'll have 3 res nodes vs the rest of map's nodes on the kharaa side. Sure they'll manage to get HA/HMG or gL, but you'll have your happy fades and lerks (if thery get HA before you get fades, you guys are doing something wrong). It'll be a good fight. Enjoy it. Every single time I was on the aliens team and the marines relocate to cargo they put turrets in it. That is always good news for the aliens because turrets slow them down. Turrets=19 res charcoal against fades and lerk support. Just be patient and theres a good chance eventually you'll be able to push them back, and make them run out of resources for HA and other stuff.
Note: Always, ALWAYS put O and D chambers in the red room by the time your second hive is up. Oh yeah and don't let them take generator room. Generor room has a res nozzle, is easy ot defend, and is THE staging area of the map. Aliens can use it to put a healing station to assault the areas near cargo, and marines can use it to push back fades by using gL and also seige redroom.
Re: cargo, I like it. It's a good idea.
I mean the marines are going to go for it, aren't they ? And the aliens are going to go for it, aren't they ? Its the <b>obivious</b> thing to do. So knowing thats your opponents know your going to go for it, do you actually bother doing so ? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> It's this deeper psychological layer to strategy games I find so fascinating.
Again, red room. It's an <b>obivious</b> gold-wrapped gift of a siege position. So do you bother trying it, as the aliens are bound to be expecting it or just go and siege power instead where they're not ?
This is my advice for aliens re: cargo.
Presuming you don't start there, fight for it tooth and nail. Stop the marines getting it for as long as possible. They will do eventually if they're determined, and in the meantime just whack the other hive up <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. If you actually manage to keep them out of cargo thats a plus. 3 RTs do not a win make. The marines having cargo isn't a massive deal.
Watch out for them trying the same thing with you. Many times we've been patting ourselves on the back for holding cargo only to get 'Your hive is under attack!' in our ears. If its power you've a <b>long</b> way to go to get there.
Don't let them get generator room as it pretty defensible, has a RT there and is a good staging ground for attacks on cargo or viaduct. Try and get gen room for the same reasons.
Now, if you want to talk about unbalanced maps, we can discuss Europa if you want.....
Anyhow Nether you're right via is messed, cuz I was one of the rines who both jetpaked killed via AND phased the bridge above it when liens rebuilt, scaring us. Oh man, that was vgg. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Even if you can't get cargo cos the aliens do, you should be able to hold generator room (easy for marines), siege out a couple of their res pts, and hold viaduct. I've seen some pretty slick marine wins with the aliens starting in cargo. Cargo isn't everything.
I've seen more epic HA vs fade battles on ns_nothing than any other map.
Viaduct and power silo are easy places for aliens to defend and they can easily go mass lerks and camp on top to spike TF,phase,whatever.
Let me tell you.....mass spikes is deadly.
Marine camping in vent?Dodge around corner,fire off spikes,repeat.You do more damage AND faster than him.Not a contest.Hes going to have to suck in tons of medpacks to achieve what a simple gorg,a DC or regeneration can do.
Edit : All aliens have to do is put some DCs below the elevators to block off most enter routes to their hives.Then its an easy task to put OCs at the RT outside cargo vent and marines arent likely to get JP to go in via foreboding antechamber vent.
Viaduct is JP Heaven, with or without the FPS JP Fuel bug. The trick for the aliens is to block both Viaduct Access corridors so they can't get in. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Power silo can go either way, I think. I've seen marines lose this hive because of lerks and gorges in the rafters. I've also seen marines dominate by keeping turrets up in the rafters or having an attentive JPer stationed there.
A month from now people will be whining about how its too easy for the aliens to win on this map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
- cargo bay is too important [3 res towers and a hive with 1 tfac??]
- cargo bay hive can be killed from the vent
- 7 nozzles on the upper level
- powersilo is fine, but so far away from cargo bay that you can't reliably hold those 2 hives.
- viaduct...
- the long brightly lit corridor on the powersilo side...
- very open, jetpacker heaven.
- red siege room...
- marine accessable vent to cargo bay hive
- marine accessable vent to powersilo hive
- 5 nozzles on the lower level [shared between 2 hives], and 2 of those can be destroyed by a marine in a vent, leaving just 1 non-hive nozzle that can be counted on for the kharaa.
IMHO - it's still a nice map, just needs a little tweaking.
Here's a plan we used as alien that worked when marines took over cargo. We rushed their base, they relocated, and we just kept pushing them while getting the 2nd hive up. The timing was good, as when they had jetpacks we had the webbing ability. Skulks patrol cargo area to keep destroying resources. Since the marines were tech rushing they didn't put any turrets around their resources at cargo area, so taking out resources were easy.
I also think getting carapace early is a must for ns_nothing because it will be alot easier to defend cargo that way.