The Best Defense Is A Good Offense
Chopper_Dave1
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Oh how true this is...</div> This goes out to all you commanders and armchair stragetgists.
After playing many many dozens of hours of NS, very often as commander, I have realized one thing:
The most offensive team will always win - always.
As marines, it is helpful to recognize one thing - the entire map, outside of your main base, is the aliens' territory. They are defending it. They have the vents, they have the speed - you have the guns. To win in Natural Selection is always a very careful balance of quickly controlling key chokepoints and resources, then using those points to assault more points, until you finally get the resources and equipment to make a final push on a hive and win.
The minute the marine team lapses into the defensive and the aliens into the offensive, the marines begin to lose. Just think about it; the only times fades and lerks can attack your outposts is when their outposts are free of danger. Which brings me to my next point:
Hive sight is the aliens' blessing as much as it is their curse.
The main thing you need to keep in mind when you command is that the hive sight has a huge impact on the way aliens play. NS is a psycological game. Whether consciously or not, alien players will react when something flashes on their screen. Therefore, it is INTEGRAL that you organize constant, quick strikes on resource nodes, walls of lame, and eventually, hives. The alien team, as a general rule, will always drop everything they are doing and run to the rescue of their precious buildings - and, as I have said before, offense > defense in NS, always.
It is unbelievably important NOT to build turrets until at least the mid-game, ESPECIALLY in main base. You may say: "Gosh Chopper Dave, if I don't drop turrets in my base, then aliens might attack it and kill us!" Tough luck. If the aliens are attacking you in the first place, it is a huge problem. Drop a few mines to kill any rambo aliens - 6 packs are cheaper then the typical cost of a TF and 3 turrets, and you generally only need 2-3 to get the job done. Once that's done, it is imperative to move out, and stay on the move.
Let me detail a game I once played to show you my point. The map was NS_nothing, the alien starting hive was the Great Viaduct, game size was 8 v 8. I started off with an infantry portal, ammo dispenser, and an observatory. I quickly drop two mines packs after the initial skulk rush, instruct my marines to place them on the floor around the IP and observatory. They do as I say, then I tell everyone but one designated guard to move out to Cargo. We nab the resource node immediately next to the base, along with ventilation, then I drop a phase in Cargo Bay and in main. I begin researching motion tracking.
At this point, the aliens had stopped trying to assault my main base, and are trying to kill my soldiers in Cargo Bay. So, I tell my designated main base guard to help out. 7 marines make pretty quick meat out of a slow trickle of skulks, I'll tell you. At this point motion tracking has gotten done researching.
Using my minimap, I see that the aliens aren't pouring into the vents anymore. They fell back, gave up ground. I drop another two mine packs at base, tell my soldiers to lay them around the phase gate (no turret factory or anything else there, mind you) leave 1 marine guard at cargo, and tell everyone else to go for Generator Room. They go there, I drop a phase, cap the resource node there, and get Miasma. Aliens realize that we''re there, and just as I suspect, completely forget about the poorly-defended Cargo Bay and main base. I tell my guard at cargo to join my marines in generator room, and everyone beats back the incoming skulks.
At this point I'm raking in the resources. I build an ammo dispenser in generator room, recycle the one in base, and upgrade the new armory to advanced (forcing my marine to go there to get guns and ammo, if they be armory-humpers). Then I get an arms lab, upgrade weapons, plop down a prototype lab, and start researching jetpacks. Keep in mind, I'm doing all of this just as the aliens are trying to save up for a hive. Then I finally plop my first turret factory down at generator room, partially to help against the onslaught of angry skulks, partially to siege the two nearby res nodes on the viaduct level. I do so, and leave the aliens with a grand total of 3 available resource nodes. Marines constantly pour through generator and harass viaduct, bringing most aliens up to defend it.
Jetpacks are done at the blink of an eye, the aliens' hive has barely just completed. Since the aliens - and their gorge - have been concentrating their defensive around viaduct, I quietly send a pack of 3 JP/HMG-ers to kill the undefended hive. They tear the thing to shreds before the aliens can blink an eye, leaving them with 1 hive, two rag-tag fades who evolved just before the hive went down, and 1 measly resource node. Needless to say, we made short work of them from there and beat them, mercifully, within the next 5 minutes.
I got compliments from the aliens that game =).
Points of the lesson:
1) Aliens are inclined to defend. When you give them something to defend at all times, then they'll never try to put together an offense. Use this to your advantage.
2) Occasionally, you'll meet an alien team that knows your tactics and will try to rush your undefended bases. Mines make short work of most of them, but keep this in mind - the more aliens there are ramboing it and trying to harass you with guerilla tactics, the less there are defending the hive from a swift rush. Therefore, the strategy works both ways.
3) Never lapse into a defensive; if you do, do your best to work your way out of it. Defensives occur when: a) you don't attack (duh) and b) you attack, but you attack something beyond your teams' ability. The key weakness in most commanders I see is that they fail to recognize how marines can't effectively assaulty soemthing that's too far away from main base - including hives (making those quiet sieges very rare and pretty ineffectual). Baby steps - it's much easier to sack the hive after taking control of every resource node along the way. If all your marines die and can't get immediately back into the action (whether by a phase gate, or by another outpost nearby in case the phase falls), then the aliens will retaliate with devastating results.
4) By dominating the map offensively, you'll dominate the map defensively. Resource nodes are just as important, if not more so, then the hives. If the aliens have 3 potential hive spots open, but only one resource node under their control, they aren't going to win. Hives aren't everything - remember that.
5) Always, always remember that marines are your first and best weapon. Work on getting upgrades that'll help them, not you. A group of marines with jetpacks and HMG's wil prove infinitely more effective, whether on defense or offense, then a bunch of turrets.
Good luck commanders, and have fun!
After playing many many dozens of hours of NS, very often as commander, I have realized one thing:
The most offensive team will always win - always.
As marines, it is helpful to recognize one thing - the entire map, outside of your main base, is the aliens' territory. They are defending it. They have the vents, they have the speed - you have the guns. To win in Natural Selection is always a very careful balance of quickly controlling key chokepoints and resources, then using those points to assault more points, until you finally get the resources and equipment to make a final push on a hive and win.
The minute the marine team lapses into the defensive and the aliens into the offensive, the marines begin to lose. Just think about it; the only times fades and lerks can attack your outposts is when their outposts are free of danger. Which brings me to my next point:
Hive sight is the aliens' blessing as much as it is their curse.
The main thing you need to keep in mind when you command is that the hive sight has a huge impact on the way aliens play. NS is a psycological game. Whether consciously or not, alien players will react when something flashes on their screen. Therefore, it is INTEGRAL that you organize constant, quick strikes on resource nodes, walls of lame, and eventually, hives. The alien team, as a general rule, will always drop everything they are doing and run to the rescue of their precious buildings - and, as I have said before, offense > defense in NS, always.
It is unbelievably important NOT to build turrets until at least the mid-game, ESPECIALLY in main base. You may say: "Gosh Chopper Dave, if I don't drop turrets in my base, then aliens might attack it and kill us!" Tough luck. If the aliens are attacking you in the first place, it is a huge problem. Drop a few mines to kill any rambo aliens - 6 packs are cheaper then the typical cost of a TF and 3 turrets, and you generally only need 2-3 to get the job done. Once that's done, it is imperative to move out, and stay on the move.
Let me detail a game I once played to show you my point. The map was NS_nothing, the alien starting hive was the Great Viaduct, game size was 8 v 8. I started off with an infantry portal, ammo dispenser, and an observatory. I quickly drop two mines packs after the initial skulk rush, instruct my marines to place them on the floor around the IP and observatory. They do as I say, then I tell everyone but one designated guard to move out to Cargo. We nab the resource node immediately next to the base, along with ventilation, then I drop a phase in Cargo Bay and in main. I begin researching motion tracking.
At this point, the aliens had stopped trying to assault my main base, and are trying to kill my soldiers in Cargo Bay. So, I tell my designated main base guard to help out. 7 marines make pretty quick meat out of a slow trickle of skulks, I'll tell you. At this point motion tracking has gotten done researching.
Using my minimap, I see that the aliens aren't pouring into the vents anymore. They fell back, gave up ground. I drop another two mine packs at base, tell my soldiers to lay them around the phase gate (no turret factory or anything else there, mind you) leave 1 marine guard at cargo, and tell everyone else to go for Generator Room. They go there, I drop a phase, cap the resource node there, and get Miasma. Aliens realize that we''re there, and just as I suspect, completely forget about the poorly-defended Cargo Bay and main base. I tell my guard at cargo to join my marines in generator room, and everyone beats back the incoming skulks.
At this point I'm raking in the resources. I build an ammo dispenser in generator room, recycle the one in base, and upgrade the new armory to advanced (forcing my marine to go there to get guns and ammo, if they be armory-humpers). Then I get an arms lab, upgrade weapons, plop down a prototype lab, and start researching jetpacks. Keep in mind, I'm doing all of this just as the aliens are trying to save up for a hive. Then I finally plop my first turret factory down at generator room, partially to help against the onslaught of angry skulks, partially to siege the two nearby res nodes on the viaduct level. I do so, and leave the aliens with a grand total of 3 available resource nodes. Marines constantly pour through generator and harass viaduct, bringing most aliens up to defend it.
Jetpacks are done at the blink of an eye, the aliens' hive has barely just completed. Since the aliens - and their gorge - have been concentrating their defensive around viaduct, I quietly send a pack of 3 JP/HMG-ers to kill the undefended hive. They tear the thing to shreds before the aliens can blink an eye, leaving them with 1 hive, two rag-tag fades who evolved just before the hive went down, and 1 measly resource node. Needless to say, we made short work of them from there and beat them, mercifully, within the next 5 minutes.
I got compliments from the aliens that game =).
Points of the lesson:
1) Aliens are inclined to defend. When you give them something to defend at all times, then they'll never try to put together an offense. Use this to your advantage.
2) Occasionally, you'll meet an alien team that knows your tactics and will try to rush your undefended bases. Mines make short work of most of them, but keep this in mind - the more aliens there are ramboing it and trying to harass you with guerilla tactics, the less there are defending the hive from a swift rush. Therefore, the strategy works both ways.
3) Never lapse into a defensive; if you do, do your best to work your way out of it. Defensives occur when: a) you don't attack (duh) and b) you attack, but you attack something beyond your teams' ability. The key weakness in most commanders I see is that they fail to recognize how marines can't effectively assaulty soemthing that's too far away from main base - including hives (making those quiet sieges very rare and pretty ineffectual). Baby steps - it's much easier to sack the hive after taking control of every resource node along the way. If all your marines die and can't get immediately back into the action (whether by a phase gate, or by another outpost nearby in case the phase falls), then the aliens will retaliate with devastating results.
4) By dominating the map offensively, you'll dominate the map defensively. Resource nodes are just as important, if not more so, then the hives. If the aliens have 3 potential hive spots open, but only one resource node under their control, they aren't going to win. Hives aren't everything - remember that.
5) Always, always remember that marines are your first and best weapon. Work on getting upgrades that'll help them, not you. A group of marines with jetpacks and HMG's wil prove infinitely more effective, whether on defense or offense, then a bunch of turrets.
Good luck commanders, and have fun!
Comments
Beautiful man.
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The most offensive team will always win
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The most succesfully offensive team will always win.
And about the mines.... please don't ACTUALLY drop 6 mine packs at a time :)
Played a server yesterday, join marines. 2 TFs in the base, no commander, about 50 mines across the doors (eclipse) and i couldn't move 5 meters without picking up a mine pack. Fighting skulks in base when you have a high probability of stepping on a mine pack and readying it inplace of the LMG isnt really what's intended by the phrase "mine field".
Why?
Because i knew the post would be good, seeing as anyone who holds this opinion is experienced in NS and is a strategically learned.
Read. and Learn.
(actually i did read the post after a bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> v nice) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Why?
Because i knew the post would be good, seeing as anyone who holds this opinion is experienced in NS and is a strategically learned.
Read. and Learn.
(actually i did read the post after a bit <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> v nice) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
same as above.
Offense wins. Any game. Any playing field. Anywhere.
On the flip side, you can always remember that you cannot defend your enemy to death <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
another thing that makes good offense in NS so important is the "slippery slope" effect that exists in many games, most notably strategy. With every successive punch that you throw at your enemy that connects, it becomes harder and harder for your enemy to recover from each punch.
please sticky this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Case in point: in most every games, you'll have a commander who takes 1 hive, researches jetpacks and HMG's, and tries to assault 1 hive in a do-or-die offensive. But the aliens are getting better at defending against this - it's quite hard to find a game now where there isn't a boucning gorge webbing up the place and a few fades spewing acid left and right. Once they kill your 1337 jetpackers, they'll use their resource advantage, fades, lerks, and upgrades to whomp up on your poor marines - and will almost always win. Only attacking the hives, like most people try to do, <u>just doesn't work</u>.
It's important to realize that every room you secure as a marine is a victory for you - an addition to the "slippery slope." But if you decide to push your marines harder, and delve even further into alien territory, you're risking your own defeat. It's like a game of "Weakest Link" - sure, you can keep on going, and the payoff is sweet if you succeed, but if you don't, you're back to ground zero. It's always a good idea to have three phases functioning at a time: one in base, one in an "abandoned" outpost, and one in a new offensive outpost. That way, your marines can both get around the map quickly, and if offensive outpost's phase happens to fall, the "abandoned" outpost phase is still there so you can quickly get the ball rolling again. Feel free to phase to a hive, though if it isn't strategically valuable (i.e. Archiving in NS_Hera, or Noname in NS_Nancy) then I wouldn't recommend it. Hives like Cargo Bay in NS_Nothing, on the other hand, I would whole-heartedly advise that you would take (keep your hands of Power Silo though, yeach).
As a commander, it's a good idea to fall into the practice of setting up offensive outposts, rather than defensive outposts. Set up a phase near a resource node, get it mined up, and in the case that you are near an alien spawn or a good siege location, build turrets. Never build self-defending turret factories - always build turrets forward, and leave the back wide open. While it might sound n00bish, having an imperfect defense will motivate your marines - they'll be less inclined to hump the armory and let the turrets do the work, and will put more pressure on the aliens so that the aliens can't attack back. Once your marines start moving away from the offensive outpost (and it starts becoming more along the lines of an "abandoned" outpost), THEN build a turret to cover the blindspot, and rinse and repeat on whatever new location your marines have secured for you.
Another thing: please, please, DON'T worry about attacking resource nodes, or about getting parasited. There should be nothing about the marines that is stealthy or secret - recon is the aliens' forte, and they're going to find out where you are and kill you whether you like it or not. Be flagrant! Attack that resource node, kill it, set up a phase and an offensive outpost there, and then use THAT to make the attack on a hive. Works much more often than sneakiness, I'll assure you.
If you want to be a good commander, learn how the map works, then use that to your advantage. Force the aliens to rabidly defend one side of the map, so that the other side is completely open for the taking. And keep beating them back - the key weakness in being on defense is the fact that you can only LOSE ground. Secure key points on the map, get your marines to constantly pour through, attack, and win.
So ends lesson two. *bows, sensei style*
*watches as Chopper struggles to raise his inflated head again* <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Wanted to bring up my own points on offensive outposts, my favorite spot for this has to be Generator Room on Nothing. Only 2 entrances (one of which is an elevator), it's nice and open, and within assault distance of 2 hives. Find areas like this, and you can quickly switch up tactics without having to worry about your flank opening up.
Point being, it might not always work... Sometimes the alien doesn't work together, and in those cases you may encounter <i>most</i> skulks going for your offensive outpost, but some other scouting the way for the gorge, cleaning up hives and taking down your RT's.
Aside from that, very good posts.
I usually have turrets up in my hive establishments by midgame. The mine-and-go strategy only works in the beginning of the game - fades'll just blow them up in the late game. Byt he time mid-game rolls around, I have enough resources to get a few turrets in the hives to cause trouble for rambos. Usually at that point, though, we're assaulting/killing a hive, so it doesnt really matter much =)
If you mean you win by turtleing up your main base or random resource nodes, you are terribly mistaken. If you mean that you win by turtleing a hivesite and putting a siege base near another hive with guys defending, you have a point. But that's kinda bulk so I'll just say I agree with the original poster. Moving your marines forward (and moving them forward in the right place!) is critical for 2 hive lockdown. I can still see commanders telling their marines to "go trough" giant walls of lame with LMGs when theres a perfectly open route to some other hive just a few meters away... It can't, simply can't, be THAT hard to scan other possible routes and notice the open ones.
As the long-haired hippies of the US Air Force say, 'Speed = Life.'
The only real difference is we dont use phase gates and we rarely defend our nodes, simply because we keep putting pressure on their base and it isnt neccesary to build phase gates or turret factories at our nodes.
Other than that you hit the nail right on the head.
I like to give this a diffent flavor by saying: "secure and defend, but don't neglect offense"
The marines are - in the long run - playing on time while the aliens are playing on territory. If you manage to secure and keep the 3rd hive out of the claws of the aliens, the marines just need to wait until they get all the neccessary resources to become better than the 2-hive aliens. The aliens don't have the luxury of time however - they NEED that third hive to gain the advantage over the marines.
However, allowing the aliens to throw everything at you will soon crush your defenses as the aliens are better equipped for long-term battles (unlimited ammo & armor that heals like hitpoints). So you need a steady offense to keep the aliens in the defensive and give your own defenders time to breathe, refit their ammo and weld their team mates' armor.
Now the nice thing about hive sight is, that aliens just get the message "hive under attack" or "resource chamber under attack" - but they lack the all-seeing commander to tell them how serious this attack really is, and eventually (especially with hives), they all rush to the defense - even if it was only one lone LMG marine shooting a few bullets into the hive sack.
So this is my recommendation: don't disregard the importance of securing your base and captured outposts, but keep a few men (a third of your team maybe) trying to penetrate the lines wherever possible and attack every resouce chamber and hive they come across. Okay, they are basically running suicide missions, but they will take off the pressure from those vital outposts you're securing. And once you have enough resources to bury your team in heavy armor and machine guns (don't forget welders!!) it's all a matter rushing or sieging the aliens to little puddles of bacterial slime.
Sperber, having an attack squad of 7 skulks hitting your base early on - well, you're playing in an interesting server. Mines are guaranteed to kill at least 4 of the skulks, and the marine should be able to kill one to two, depending on his skill. That leaves 1-3 live aliens chimping on your base, and that's what distress call is for =). Meanwhile, that group of 7 marines has a wonderful opportunity to kill that hive now that aliens are all waiting in the respawn line from hell. Worse comes to worse, you can at least have them build a new base in a hive.
Expanding defenses into enemy positions, i.e. Offense Towers to Siege Turrets, is a great distraction. For Kharaa I will do this, get the sentries to concentrate fire on my structure, then attack that other structure. By now you might be reacting to this, but its all ready distracted you from what could be really going on. Its essential to do like the Kharaa do. Plug holes, build behind an Organic Curtain, then take the offense.
Cargo has huge res and viaduct is friggen hard to def vs HMG + JP rush.
Now winning with initial hive being cargo is HARD.
First thing's first, get a resource node in Docking Wing and Miasma, then move on to Generator. Get a phase in generator, and have all your marines defend it. Place a turret factory in the right place, upgrade it to siege, and you can not only place sieges that will kill all the Cargo Bay resources, but the nearby Viaduct resources, as well. Have your marines continually scout out the res so your sieges will slaughter them. Meanwhile, send a small team to PowerSilo and cap the res nodes there (and drop a phase, if you wish) since the aliens will be so busy trying to kill your marines in generator to try to get powersilo.
End result: You have around 6 resource nodes, aliens have NONE (except the one in great viaduct hive maybe, but your marines can take that too with a little harassing). Aliens have to wait 10 minutes to afford carapace, you'll have jetpacks and HMG's in no time. Win.
with MT you can defend and attack all in one go though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->