1.04 Balanced? Sure, But...
Fang-CE
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11946Members
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11946Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It's really about "fun while losing"</div> I think 1.04 is great; it fixed many perceived balancing issues. However, I think the root of the problem was never balance. I think the real "problem" is the lack of fun when you are losing. I say "problem", because NS can stay the way it is, and still be a good game. But for it to continue on to be a GREAT game the game designers need to look at increasing the "fun-factor" for the losing team.
What I mean with "fun-factor" is really adequate positive reinforcement. Games can be broken down into positive and negative reinforcement. In the original Quake, the positive reinforcement was frags and the negative was deaths. That got old quickly.
For a game to be compelling and addictive, sufficient positive reinforcement needs to be given to the players. Also, the possibility of greater positive reinforcement in the future adds to the current level. However, it cannot be overly given out, for then it cheapens the effect of the reinforcement. Also, negative reinforcement will temper it and cause the player to value the the positive more.
For example, consider EverQuest. It has achieved a balance of positive and negative reinforcement. Studies have shown that the brain will release endorphins with positive reinforcement, in the same manner that it reacts to cocaine. This is why we get phenomenoms like "EverCrack" and why others get addicted to certain kinds of behaviors. So how do we make NS more addicting? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
First, there needs to be more positive reinforcement while on the losing team. Unfortunately, the marines do not have easy access to their scores. Yes, I understand the reasons behind this, but a side effect is that the positive reinforcement usually obtained for a good marine is lost; and if he/she is on the losing side, they have no positive reinforcement to keep them from F4'ing, hence that phenomenom. For a winning marine team, this isn't a problem. There is sufficient positive reinf. for the winning team.
Now what about an alien team locked down to one hive, while the marines turtle with 2 hives just so they can research everthing. If the aliens have no hope of winning, and the marines just drag it on for an hour just so they can cover the map with turrents, you'll see many aliens F4. Instead, how can you give the skulks a reason to stay in the game? One idea (and it's just an example) is for the skulks to be given access to xenocide after a prolonged period of time if they are locked down to one hive. Yes, there are balance issues with that, but it's just an example. Now the skulks have a reason for living (to die and take as many marines as possible with them). For the losing side, this is a good source of positive reinforcement. Think "Pickett's charge". Sure, one side will lose, but they will have fun doing it.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.
What I mean with "fun-factor" is really adequate positive reinforcement. Games can be broken down into positive and negative reinforcement. In the original Quake, the positive reinforcement was frags and the negative was deaths. That got old quickly.
For a game to be compelling and addictive, sufficient positive reinforcement needs to be given to the players. Also, the possibility of greater positive reinforcement in the future adds to the current level. However, it cannot be overly given out, for then it cheapens the effect of the reinforcement. Also, negative reinforcement will temper it and cause the player to value the the positive more.
For example, consider EverQuest. It has achieved a balance of positive and negative reinforcement. Studies have shown that the brain will release endorphins with positive reinforcement, in the same manner that it reacts to cocaine. This is why we get phenomenoms like "EverCrack" and why others get addicted to certain kinds of behaviors. So how do we make NS more addicting? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
First, there needs to be more positive reinforcement while on the losing team. Unfortunately, the marines do not have easy access to their scores. Yes, I understand the reasons behind this, but a side effect is that the positive reinforcement usually obtained for a good marine is lost; and if he/she is on the losing side, they have no positive reinforcement to keep them from F4'ing, hence that phenomenom. For a winning marine team, this isn't a problem. There is sufficient positive reinf. for the winning team.
Now what about an alien team locked down to one hive, while the marines turtle with 2 hives just so they can research everthing. If the aliens have no hope of winning, and the marines just drag it on for an hour just so they can cover the map with turrents, you'll see many aliens F4. Instead, how can you give the skulks a reason to stay in the game? One idea (and it's just an example) is for the skulks to be given access to xenocide after a prolonged period of time if they are locked down to one hive. Yes, there are balance issues with that, but it's just an example. Now the skulks have a reason for living (to die and take as many marines as possible with them). For the losing side, this is a good source of positive reinforcement. Think "Pickett's charge". Sure, one side will lose, but they will have fun doing it.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.
Comments
Perhaps there could be some sort of 'last ditch' siege equivalent for aliens. Nothing powerful, but something that 1/100 of the time works. Gorges doing the whole 'WoL' inside a locked down hive is an example. Basically, something which makes aliens think they can be making a difference, even as they're being bombed to smitherinz.
What about max resources of a player is computed based on how many resource nozzles have cap the team.
For instance:
60% of res nozzles of the map (rounded up) means 100 res points max. (60% can be balanced)
With this solution its only about capping res nozzles but we can introduce a bonus for hives. I mean, we will take the maximum resources of a kharaa player depending on number of hives.
So we take maxRes = max(33, calculedMaxResFromNozzles()) for one hive, maxRes = max(66, calculedMaxResFromNozzles()) for two hives and maxRes = 100 for three hives.
This solution makes kharaa fight for resources at 2-hives lock situation and gives a chance for comeback.
Of course, gorges need more res than other non-gorges players so they can obtain 50% more res than others or other balanced percentage.
Now of course, Fades can have their health reduced... and if they have no carapace, they'll die rather quickly... and if they have no adrenaline, it's just a bigger skulk who moves slower.
^^^
That's the idea, now how do we get more players to do the same? What incentive can we give them?
As for the other ideas, I appreciate them, but I think that they are still too focused on balance. We don't need something that will change the core gameplay. What we need is for the players on the losing team to be able to accomplish something worthwhile even as they lose.
Here's a CS example, even when I'm on the losing team, I'll still enjoy the game because I feel that I'm doing my part to help my team by taking out 3-4 guys each round. Sure I may die each round, and my team lose it because they are inexperienced (there's only so much one guy can do), but getting a couple of frags before I die is enough positive reinforcement to offset the loss. The reinforcement is amplified since those killed stay out for the round and don't just respawn in. I think CS is so addictive because of this reinforcement amplification.
Now what can the marines do as the onos are charging them? For me, I make it my goal to kill one of the onos. If I can take him down, I feel like I "win". However, this takes my own imagination and is not apart of the game structure. So how can we build this in for losing teams?
Marines losing is a struggle. Top-grade Marine tech (most of the time) against full-evolution Aliens. Battle royale, with the Marines getting the short end of the stick (as they should, if they let the aliens get three-hive).
Aliens losing is a mop-up. One-Hive aliens against full tech Marines. HA/HMGs just /stepping/ on Skulks as they waltz into the last Hive to kill it, or play with the aliens a bit, spawncamping.
Either let the Aliens keep all levels of upgrades available throughout the game (so they can run over to a locked-down Hive and toss it up, keeping the turrets distracted long enough for it to build, and get Onos available for the rest of the game), or have them all available from the start.
At that point, you'd end most games with streams of HA/HMGs pushing for the last Hive, while the aliens muster together their Onos, Fades, Lerks and Gorges to try and bash them back out of the area. Battle royale on either side, as the game ends. And you don't feel cheapened, like you just put out all that effort for _nothing_, when playing Aliens.
It'd balance out, as without all three Hives to spawn dead aliens, the flow would slow to a trickle, then virtually stop. Holding Hives would become a matter of keeping your team at full strength, as it should. Just say that as each Hive comes up, it transfers its genetic knowledge to the other Hives, and vice-versa. So the species are kept. Perhaps the weapons as well, though that /could/ be passable.
Point 1:
The marines 'basic 0 res' player remains viable throughout the game. If the commander is doing his job, the marines will have ammo/armor upgrades. So a marine fresh off the spawn portal can be effective against any level alien. (to what extent will vary, but in groups they can prevail)
The aliens 'basic 0 res' player becomes less and less viable thoughout the game. As the marine technology increases, the basic skulk becomes less of a fighter and more of a nuisance to the marine team. (in a one hive game) Even an upgrade like level 3 carapace is no match to an upgraded marine.
Point 2:
The marine game usually will not end until the command chair is killed. As such, the marines always have a fighting chance because even if they have NO hives they still have piles of res coming in from 1-2 nodes and can equip marines with heavy equipment. When the marine game is about to end, the marines can put up a good fight to the end, and once the command chair is gone it's game over.
The alien game will not end until the last hive is killed. However, what usually happens is that the marines lock down two hives and SLOWLY tech up, while the aliens try throwing their level 0 bodies at them. Even if a few aliens have the chance to go fade, it's only a matter of time before they are killed, (usually by a level 0 marine that cost 0 res but who had the ammo/armor upgrades) and with the alien res economy being as poor as it is, they will not be able to go fade again. So now the marines become stronger to the point where they cannot be overcome. HOWEVER, they usually don't finish the game then, and it can often take 30 minutes or more for the game to end.
Answer me this. Who wants to play a game that you KNOW you are going to lose?
The problem is that the aliens are NOT viable in the end game, while the marines are. Thus the aliens tend to F4 FAR more often in the games, even though on pub servers the aliens supposedly win more often.
Regards,
Savant
My experience is this: its more fun to lose as marine then it is alien because if marines have 2 hives they want to tech up ALL the way and get res.. Whereas aliens with 3 hives have ONE player goin around cappin res while the rest have nothing to do but attack marine base..
marines drag out games a lot.. If the aliens can go onos with one hive (if they had 3 hives fully built previously of course) then marines will have incentive to try and quickly end the game.. Plus it will be more fun for aliens i think
good idea tale!
However, what if 40 minutes (or whatever time is determined) into the game, 1 hive skulks get access to xenocide (not onos, but xenocide)? Then the aliens are still likely to lose, but the losing aliens would then have a chance to commit suicide and see how many marines they can take with them. It's ideas like this that I'm going for. Things that won't change the balance too much or give too much of an advantage to the losing team. We want ideas that will give something worthwhile for the losing players to do, as they LOSE.
Xenocide may be too powerful and give the losing aliens more of an advantage, but that could be something to play test.
Alien upgrades are meant to be fast, cheap, but not too effective. Think about it; it takes about 3-4 seconds to upgrade a trait like carapace, and it only costs the individual 2 res. The one time cost of 14 res is PALTRY compared to what marines have to pay.
Marine upgrades are meant to cost an arm and a leg, come extremely slowly, but be extremely useful from then on. As a commander, you have to pay 40(?) res for a Arms Lab, then 20, 40, 60 res for the various levels of upgrades. THEN in addition to paying out the nose, you also have to wait for it to research, much longer than 3-4 seconds.
The tradeoff for the Aliens efficiency is a Ammo lvl 3 marine can tear through a lvl 3 carapace pretty easy, and an Armor lvl 3 HA marine is nearly invincible against anything less than a HEAVILY upgraded fade.
Aliens ARE viable in the end game, they just have to get organized. I don't care how many upgrades you have, if 3 marines are caught defending a hive, an entire team of skulks with carapace and a few lerks and healer gorges are gonna pull thier pants down, and fairly quickly too. Since it is against the nature of the game for Aliens to be organized(a lot of Aliens in one place tends to draw even more marines, more marines than Aliens=BAD), you rarely see it happen, but I have been party to a one hive comeback more than once.
Alien upgrades are meant to be fast, cheap, but not too effective. Think about it; it takes about 3-4 seconds to upgrade a trait like carapace, and it only costs the individual 2 res. The one time cost of 14 res is PALTRY compared to what marines have to pay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
true but over time aliens pay more whereas marines just pay one time and keep the upgrade forever.
and i disagree with the person that said 1 hive aliens being able to onos will make the game unbalanced.. Marines will have 2 hives locked down and should concentrate on killin res. Therefore it will take a while before anyone goes onos and if aliens do manage to onos they will still have to face hmgs and will most likely get gunned down quickly.. however it will be FUN
i seriously think this needs to be playtested or something.. It could be great
Losing as aliens is boring as snot. Dinky skulks getting blasted with the top level of marine tech. No challenge or excitement for marines, and even less for aliens.
I like the "if you already had the hive" thinking. If you had 2 hives at some point, you could still have the 2 hive aliens. It's roughly the same way the marine tech works (once they get it, they have it for good). I know...I know..."aliens are not reskinned marines" but you understand what I'm saying. If the aliens get pushed back to one hive, they could still put up a decent, and more importantly, fun fight.
Alien upgrades are meant to be fast, cheap, but not too effective. Think about it; it takes about 3-4 seconds to upgrade a trait like carapace, and it only costs the individual 2 res. The one time cost of 14 res is PALTRY compared to what marines have to pay.
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It isn't a 'one time cost'.
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Marine upgrades are meant to cost an arm and a leg, come extremely slowly, but be extremely useful from then on. As a commander, you have to pay 40(?) res for a Arms Lab, then 20, 40, 60 res for the various levels of upgrades. THEN in addition to paying out the nose, you also have to wait for it to research, much longer than 3-4 seconds.
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Hmm. Let's look a little closer. Deal with a single level 1 upgrade, as that incurs the most RP 'wastage' on the Marine side. Marines pay 40RP for a lab, and 20RP for an upgrade.. 60 total. They have it forever, it cannot be taken away no matter what the Aliens do besides winning the round and starting a new one. Aliens pay 16RP, plus 2RP per player, per life. Call it a 16-player server. That's 8 Aliens, 16RP. The cost is already up to 32RP. Aliens die once. It's now 48RP. Again. 66RP. Again. 82RP. That's if each player dies 'only' three times in the course of the game. Not taking into account if that chamber is destroyed, requiring another 16RP to be outlayed... and if they only had one, for everyone to pay that 2RP evo fee again. And it takes closer to 7-10 seconds to upgrade a trait.
Full upgrades on both sides. That's 280RP on the Marine side for 30% increased damage across the board (something aliens can't do, but that's a different discussion), and increased armor capacity also covering all packs. Minimum on the Alien side is going to 'only' run ((16 * 3) + (16 * 3) + (10 * 3) + 8(2 * 3)), 168RP. But now we have 42RP each time a 'death cycle' goes around. One death. 210RP. Two deaths. 252RP. Three deaths. 294RP. It again only takes three deaths for each person to equal out the same expenditure, and then some. It isn't 'free', as the marine upgrades. They can be taken away, costing more. Marines can die as many times as they want, and pop out again with the same upgraded gear, without costing the Comm a single RP. Once all the upgrades are done, unless the Comm wants to drop a GL, for all he cares he can simply recycle the Arms Lab and get the RP back for it. Probably wiser than leaving it laying around as a chomp-target anyway.
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The tradeoff for the Aliens efficiency is a Ammo lvl 3 marine can tear through a lvl 3 carapace pretty easy, and an Armor lvl 3 HA marine is nearly invincible against anything less than a HEAVILY upgraded fade.
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I think I've sufficiently debunked the 'efficiency' in the Alien model. Marines have the efficiency. Aliens have spot-purchases.
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Aliens ARE viable in the end game, they just have to get organized. I don't care how many upgrades you have, if 3 marines are caught defending a hive, an entire team of skulks with carapace and a few lerks and healer gorges are gonna pull thier pants down, and fairly quickly too. Since it is against the nature of the game for Aliens to be organized(a lot of Aliens in one place tends to draw even more marines, more marines than Aliens=BAD), you rarely see it happen, but I have been party to a one hive comeback more than once.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One-hive Aliens currently are non-viable in the late game against Marines. They are little more than an annoyance to HA, and cannot stand up against even one GL round, much less the fusillades (grenade-spam, for those that don't want to look it up) that tend to occur. HMGs take them down in a half-second of fire at most. Shotguns, a single blast. Those healer-gorges have no chance to do their work, if their teammate is dead in one hit. Lerks go down even faster, without Umbra to protect them while they Spike away.
Yes, if you're playing against Marines who can't find their hindquarters with both hands.. you can still win. But if you aren't up against the short bus-rejects, there is nothing you can do against the advancing wall of explosions.
Secondly, I disagree about making losing more fun, or giving the losing side more options. There actually ARE a lot of things which the losing side can do to try to pull itself out of its situation. For one thing, marine tech is EXPENSIVE - drop a HA\HMG and you've cost them 50\60 resources. If the commander's smart enough to stop tactics like stealth hiving (getting a hive up in a captured hive without them noticing) then the victory is well deserved.
But anyways, I don't think it matters. These sort of discussions might as well be dropped, and picked up when 1.1 comes out.
I keep on trying to say that it's NOT about the "losing side pulling itself out of its situation." You guys are missing the point. While the idea for aliens to keep the hive abilities may have merit, that is a balancing issue. What I said at the beginning was that the main problem is not an issue of balance, but an issue of having fun WHILE LOSING. Sometimes you get a team full of players that are just learning NS against a team of players who have been playing NS since Oct 2002. The way NS is setup now, you will most likely end up being used as target practice.
For example, imagine you are an alien waiting to respawn. The marines are advancing on your base as a 5 man squad of HA's with HMG's. You know without a shadow of a doubt, that your last hive will be destroyed in EXACTLY 33.2 seconds. You respawn into the game. What do you do? Do you press F4 or do you run out, make a feeble ambush attack on the squad and die instantly to get placed back on the queue (note: without even getting a chance to bite a marine)?
Here's what I WOULD rather do: wait in ambush for the marines; as they come out, xenocide and take out an HA or maybe the jet packer with them. I'm dead, my hive still dies in 33.2 seconds, but I feel satisfied that I took one of the jarheads with me.
I'll call it the F4 problem. At some point in time, players will realize that they are not going to win the game. Maybe it's when the 5-man HA squad is advancing on your hive; maybe it's when 4 players on your team go gorge and ask what is a resource nozzle. Too many players will just hit F4, worse they'll just quit playing and the community never grows. Is it their fault? No, the game design does not provide them enough positive reinforcement for them to continue playing in a losing situation.
Don't explain how they are dumb for hitting F4 because they can do such and such a tactic (I've already read those threads), but come up with ideas for how NS can grow so that no one wants to hit F4 even when they know without a shadow of a doubt that they WILL lose this game.
Here's another idea: instead of killing off aliens without hives on public servers, have a mini-end game. All aliens spawn back in at their last hive; they can't evolve, but if they can reach the airlock or some other "escape" point in the map within 30 seconds they will have "survived" the marine onslaught and cocoon out into space hoping to infect the next "NSS Nancy" that comes along. Round ends, Marine Win. The losing team survivors get a special icon for the next round <- there's your positive reinforcement. It doesn't effect balance, but the losing survivors can think "They may have gotten my team and my hive, but they couldn't get me..." Especially if the escape point is a difficult challenge like the marine start.
So how can NS change so that the team that WILL lose (not the team that is currently losing, but the team that WILL lose) won't want to hit F4?
Does anyone understand my point and the differences I'm making between trying to balance NS and making it fun/addicting to play even while losing? You see, the game could be grossly unbalanced, but if it's still fun while losing, you will gain a larger audience (as you continue to fine tweak any balance issues).
NOT "how can the losing team stand a better chance in a 1-hive or 3-hive situation?" <- balancing issue = wrong topic.
As you have said, marines can give themselves little objectives whilst they are losing to boost the morale. Killing an onos/fade for example. Whereas if aliens are down to one hive there is such a small chance of even taking one down that the team gives up and would rather f4. That is what needs to change. The marines have done everything right to win the game and should, but the aliens need to be able to give themselves a pep up or something they want to accomplish so that if they do accomplish it losing isnt quite so bad, because you can say "haha! I xenocided and killed 2 HA marines shooting the hive."
A reason to stay and play, because f4 is a bore.
I like this idéa but my cynical mind directly start to envision people who will start to hide in the end game near the escape point. One extra skulk might in some cases turn around a defeat to a victory.
My suggestion is to make the escape point random (structurals weaknesses brought on by the fighting?) and to make it an easter egg so it will not happen every round. Then make it so that it wont happen untill all the aliens have died. Hidning skulks can then be both a blessing and curse for the rest of the team. If all the marines leave the hive to hunt the last skulk then the aliens will have a free way out from the hive when they respawn. But the marines could also stay in the hive and turret farm it insta killing anyone who spawns there.
The countdown timer would need to be changed though. Probably impossible to run across the map and survive marine encounters while it is ticking. Best thing would in my opinion be to turn it of during the easter egg. If it only happende once in awhile then most people would probably put up with people hiding.
As for the suggestion of letting aliens have all the clasess from the begining it has been suggested in this thread:
<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=20615&hl=hive' target='_blank'>An Uber Suggestion For 1.1, Everything you wanted and more</a>
Flayra sent a post in the thread and sounded quite possitive.
NOT "how can the losing team stand a better chance in a 1-hive or 3-hive situation?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem I see though, is that the only positive reinforcement that will last for any period of time for a team <b>IS</b> having a chance to comeback in a 1-hive situation. It may be fun for a few minutes, taking out those HA's with xenocide, but you're still going to lose. A few rounds later and the excitement of taking out heavies as a low level alien wears off because: "Whats the point killing those HA's when the gain is absolutely nothing?"
With the other suggestions, aliens would have more fun even if losing. They'd be able to play high level aliens and not only would they stand a chance of combatting those high level marines, but they'd stand a chance of actually making a comeback.
Being able to Onos does sound a little unbalanced at 1 hive, but with only level 1 abilities and maybe even only level 1 upgrades if these ideas get implemented, they aren't even close to unstoppable against a fully upgraded marine team.
(Being able to build all 3 types of chamber at one hive, but only one of each. For example, evolving Level 1 Carapace & Level 1 Cloaking & Level 1 Adrenaline at the first hive)
Anyhow, I won't argue why being able to evolve all aliens at any hive is a good change, but I do think that being able to make a comeback is what makes playing fun. Currently there is a chance, but it is so small that most players would rather F4 than repeatedly die while awaiting those slow marines to finish the hive.
I know I based most of my post around the alien problems, but I believe the marines stand much more chance of making a comeback and have more fun doing so. Marines can tech up, save for HMG's, GL's, HA and JP's and even against top level aliens, be able to fight back. Aliens can save resources when the marines hold 2 hives, all get to close to infinate resources and spend it on ... Gorge, Lerk and/or a Defence upgrade most of the time. All of which are very little use against HA/GL/HMG marines.
I'd also like a nice audible noise for a reloading HMG - about 4 skulks should jump straight onto any HMG guy foolish enough to reload without cover <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd also like a nice audible noise for a reloading HMG - about 4 skulks should jump straight onto any HMG guy foolish enough to reload without cover <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah thats true.. if i knew i had at least 2 bites on an ha before i died i would be perfectly happy losing.. As it is now melee fighting is shaky (im 56k) i can bite an unupgraded lmg marine 10 times and not do damage because of my ping <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> think of my morale when i have to bite up an ha/hmg
ALL aliens would spawn back at their last hive, so it would be pointless to hide near the exit, since they will just be sent to their starting point.
Oh, and they will only get one life, so the marines wouldn't build a turrent farm in the hive waiting for more skulks to respawn. 30 seconds to escape (or whatever time play tests well). No evolving. And the point of having everyone spawn one last time is to give the aliens a chance to run for it. Multiple targets=harder to kill them all.
Will the marines have a complete victory? Or will the aliens live to fight another day... They may have won this battle, but the war has just begun...
If they get a 2nd or 3rd hive and then lose them, they should keep the classes for a limited time say 3mins.
That way it gives em a chance.
To make it more fun, maby a bio mine or something.
Likewise, many people will just leave games if they think they've lost.
It is up to the user themselves to have fun while losing, some people are just cry-babies. I think losing is plenty fun as long as it isn't drawn out over a series of hours unnecessarily. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, that's one of the reasons that I never got into Starcraft...
In NS you are very dependent on your team to win, unlike in Starcraft. Many losses can and will be drawn out for an hour by the marines. I disagree that it is the users' responsibility to have fun while losing. To some extent yes, but game design is really a big part of it.
1) Alien static defenses are good and cheap. They can build WOLs everywhere, especially after they secure lots of resnode because marines can't venture out of their hives yet (busy guarding) This brings me to point 2
2) Because marines have such a hard time expanding all over the place like the kharaa can without very very very expensive stgatic defenses that can fall easily, the marines will just hole up in the two hives to tech up safely, so they CAN crush the WOLs.
3) It IS easy for one hive aliens to crush base defenses IF the marines aren't careful and put lots of defenses up, which they have to do if they're all going to be going for the last hive later. So, marines against turtle and wait for the slow res to be able to put def up, and tech up so they can safely crush the remaining hvie without fear they're going to lose one of their hives.
4) By the time there is a group of 5 HA/gL and HMG ers, the aliens have LONG since started complaining or f4ing. It's like, aliens shout, "Kill us already!" and marines shout, "Stop putting up walls of lame then!"