A Balanced Round?

Garet_Jax · February 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Give your opinion!</div> Now that NS has been out for a few months now, most commanders/gorges have smartened up their act, and they realise that the first 5 minutes of a game decides the round. One of the reasons I play NS is because I like to play in mammoth 1 hour-long rounds; but the chance of having a long balanced game is minimal (in my opinion), as the outcome of the game is determined in 3 ways:

1) The marines cap 2 hives at the start, usuallly thanks to the Com re-locating in a hive and 'Rambo' capping the other hive. This round lasts for 30 mins despite the certain outcome (marine victory) as those little blighters (skulks) can still stop the marines in their tracks until JP/HA is researched. RESULT: MARINE VICTORY (45 mins)

2) The aliens cap 2 hives. Dont really need to go into detail with this one. Time for the marines to stick their heads under their **** whilst feebly hoping that the 4 SGs in the base hold up against the adv. evolutions of the kharaa. A single fade appears and wipes out the marines. RESULT: KHARAA VICTORY (15 mins)

3) The aliens cap a hive and the marines cap a hive; but thanks to the mobility of the kharaa they cap twice as many res nodes as the marines, and when 2 fades evolve, they wipe out and decimate the marines. RESULT: KHARAA VICTORY (40 mins)

...My gripe with this is that either the marines cap 2 hives at the start - or they loose. (I know the Onos is meant to finish the game off for fun, but the fades seem to have this ability too. This is because of their great mobility, high endurance and mean firepower.) Now surely for a 'balanced' round each team should cap one hive each - but when this happens the fades always seem to trounce the marines despite numerous tactics of different commanders

I know a lot of you are going to say that a HA/HMG marines cancels out a fade, but it's unlikely the marines can cap enough res points to spawn a team of Heavies' because even a skulk can nail an un-defended RT quickly, and it costs 77 res (1 TF & 3SG) to (weakly) fortify a res tower for the marines, where as for the same efect for the Kharaa it costs only 42 res. Big difference. Oh and let's face it, theres no way a com can ask a marine to defend a res point through out the game

So in summary: in my opinion the fades attacks should be re-designed (no splash damage on the bile weapons) and/or they should have 50pts less armour; OR SGs should be quicker to fire (its annoying to see a fade appear from a doorway, shoot an acid rocket at an SG, then hide behind the wall whilst the SG does jack. [Repeat till desired effect is achived (i.e. destroyed SG)]

P.S. before y'all have a **** at me for slagging off the fades, take a look at my post count! and have mercy on the 'n00b'

Cheers [B][/B][B]

p00psm1th · February 2003

It is possible for the marines ot win if they have only secured on hive. What they have to do is attack one of the alien hives. The only way to win is to be on the offensive. If you are on the offensive, you can cap resource nodes and the aliens will worry about the marines incoming into base instead. The problem is that it required a competent marine team to do this.

Doombringer · February 2003

Balance... heh. With the right skill levels distributed amongst either team, a game can go on for a VERY long time. I played a game last night that lasted almost two hours before the server crashed. We were on AtomicMass, and the marines were holed up in the Drive Tubes hive. For the life of us, we could not break their defenses, and only made some actual headway just before the server crashed :/

It was great <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

The marines relocating to a hive and properly fortifying can make a game last a hell of a lot longer.

Obliterater · February 2003

The thing about fades is, that the Marines have to spend all thier money capping a hive, and turreting it, so when the fades come they are not teched up enough to fight them. Also, fades eat turrets in about 10 seconds, so all nodes that dont have phase gates are dead, which means that resorces get tight very quickly.

A skilled Marine team can fight fades very effectivly, if they have a couple upgrades, but usualy all the money goes into siege bases or turrets, instead of shotguns and upgrades.

d0omie · February 2003

Marines can normally get HMG and HA before second hive is up, if they go for res after reloacting. Then they are more than a match for fades, as a group of 3 HA HMG and welders can easilly kill fades, skulks, lerks anything the khraa can throw at them. If the marines get HA and HMG before fades appear, then the aliens lose a hive pretty easily, then the marines take the last one and win.

Fades have far too little health to survive for along against HMG fire.

JusticeBlade · February 2003

Use siege <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> It works wonders against alien structures, namely res nodes and defenses. Be sure to hide it well though.

Plus if you res get killed and a gorge builds there !BLAM! dead gorge and your res node is back.

DoADrunkMonkey · February 2003

yea, fades in my opinion are a bit unballanced, even with the 54 res cost.

i had a game where we had one hive and res enough to supply around 5 ppl HA, HMG and welders to us all.
they had 2 hives and fades were around, we were trying to push them back but even with us all working together, welding each other, shooting at primary targets, setting outposts ECT we just couldn`t push back 3 fades with dc around the corner! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'> and mabye the wol <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>

ShuflY · February 2003

Marines can't win on pubs when the aliens get a second hive because most public commanders neglect upgrades in favor of locking down hives. I never lockdown any hives, and I haven't lost a game I have commanded on a public server in weeks. I don't use a single turret or phase gate, and I seriously cannot remember the last time I have failed to command a pub team to victory.

Hive 2 does not mean the game is over, but if the commander decided to try and lockdown hives, it definatly is, as the marines tech level is at that of the start of the game, whereas the aliens have their upgrades (2nd hive) and can now own the weak, unupgraded marines. From what I have seen on pubs lately, the hive lockdown strat almost never works, because the aliens are getting smarter and actually paying attention to the situation going on in their hives. If the hives get locked down, the aliens are noob and will lose because they have been cut off of their tech advancement.

The problem with pub games is that one team rarely effectively discovers the strat of the opposite team and works to counter it, they just run around killing aimlessly, complaining about the commander building stuff, or upset at the gorge cause he hasn't dropped a D chaimber yet...

GirDraxon · February 2003

Honestly now that Marines are starting to get out of the 1.03 "lock two hives ASAP" mode, they are starting to win more now. Right at the outset of 1.04 Marine victories took a direct hit due to phase gate changes and other generic changes, and most pub games the Marine still tried to do what they knew best.

Honestly I see it as being a stronger game now, though the Aliens still have a better advantage. Its become about resource control. Sure those Fades are nasty, but you aren't going to see too many Fades if the Aliens only have 2 resource points. Now the Marines have to play the Aliens game.

The typical "born to lose" Marine two hive rush usually proceeds thusly:
1) Marines rush 1-2 hives and try to plant PGs down at both and carefully use their slow trickle of money to lock down the hives with turrets.
2) While this happens the skulks are on a rampage and eat up anything outside these 2-3 spots, the Gorge/s, having free reign, happily plant resource points everywhere and have plenty of resources to drop Walls of Lame wherever they want.
3) Eventually, the Skulks/Lerks manage to break through the defense somewhere and free a hive.

Right there is the beginning of the end. Now the Marines only have 1 Hive, 2 res points, and have spent most of their money on welders, turrets, etc and not on upgrades. They rapidly try to re-secure the hive, but the Gorges, fat on Resources, have managed to throw up insta-WOLs which slow down the Marines a ton. Marines try to siege through but are constantly harassed by the Kharaa till the Hive goes up, all the Kharaa switch to Fade/Lerk, and wipe the Marines out completely.

The key NOW is to secure the res. Instead of trying to ninja two hives, the Marines merely need to keep the Kharaa from getting all three hives while controlling most of the resource points. If the Marines can control 3-4 Resource points, they have a really good chance to tech rush before the second hive goes up. Good marines with JPs and HMGs will decimate the Kharaa hives. If the Marines manage to control more resource points the game should be won, the Commander can upgrade, drop all sorts of equipment, and when its time to crack open a hive he can drop insta-turret farms.

Therein lies the problem. Since it becomes about area and resource control, the Kharaa have a lot more advantages than the Marines. They ALL know instantly when one of their res towers (or any towers) are being hit, their primary beginning troop (skulk) is faster than a Marine, not to mention they can climb and use vents with impunity for the first half of the game. A skulk has no problems getting past the "standard" turret farm (3 turrets), whereas a Marine trying to get past a wall of 3 OTs has a very low chance of making it past alive, much less with decent health (and a smart Gorge would build 2 OTs on the front line, then one OT behind them to catch the ninjas).

These advantages mean that some maps are VERY Kharaa-friendly, and some maps are Marine friendly (basically any map where the Marines can secure multiple resource nodes, thereby using less resources/men to secure more stuff). Some are even based on WHERE the Kharaa start (i.e. ns_nothing, if the Aliens start in Powersilo they are pretty screwed, if they start in Cargo Foyer, they will probably win, keeping the Marines away from one spot where they secure one hive and THREE resource towers).

There's not much that can be done about this, its the Kharaa's game to deny Marines resources long enough to get to Fades/Umbra before the Marines get HA/HMG/GL and 3/3 weap/armor. Its the Marines game to secure as much resources as possible so they can get all that before or during the Kharaa's Fade/Umbra stage, because then they will walk all over the Kharaa.

Seriously, you either ninja-rush at the beginning, get lucky and win, or you play "starve the enemy" by controlling as much res as possible, then using that res to just swamp the enemy.

sekdar · February 2003

i think the fade should be slowed down a tad. if all the marines that charge a wounded fade weren't outrun by its greater foot speed and teleporting abilities, it'd make for a lot more "kill-ability" of fades <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> it would also make celerity more useful, and thereby remove the new players' focusing on acid spam.

Totenkopf22 · February 2003

What it is, is that fades can be whored so easily. All I ever see them doing is idiotically running side to side and firing their acid rockets through open doorways until they've annihilated all the base defenses while the skulks move in for the kill. Either the acid rocket damage needs to be toned down, or the sentry guns need to be a little more sensitive.

Aries8 · February 2003

Most of the time I command I use this strat:
First I secure one hive and dont even worry or try to get the second(send marines to keep the aliens busy). Then i proceed to get rts and tell marines to guard them. At about this time about half of my marines are swearing at me and calling me a freaking idiot and we need to go for the second hive or we automaticly lose the game. Afew minutes go by rt flow is pretty good(mainly because i didnt waste money on trying to get 2nd hive then losing it) half the marines are still swearing at me the other half(mostly regs on the server) tell them to shut up and play and that i know what im doing. im teching and have 3lvl upgrades and have everything upgraded and waiting for a good stock of rts.

This is around when aliens get fades... and omg it never fails some marines will always yell out "OMG THEY HAVE FADES ITS OVER ALL BECAUSE WE HAD A **** IDIOT COM THAT DIDNT GET THE SECOND HIVE. LETS JUST ALL F4 RIGHT NOW." this is when i proceed to tell them that they have level 3 upgrades and they can take careless fades down easy(most fades r careless at this point because they think that won).

Then fun starts i say to marines have fun and drop ALOT of hmgs nades heavy armour and say have fun(1on1 a heavy full upgrade marine kills a fade, skill makes this very), just work in groups and make your way to rts or hives(most of the time i can give everyone something) I dont know if you guys have ever played had heavy vs fades wars but it is so much fun. I think its the most fun part in NS. Most of the time after the game my marines will tell me that that was the most fun game theve ever played in.

using this tatic i have won almost every game that i can recall except one and that was because there was a server/map bug and i couldnt upgrade the tf and siege. and ofcourse one of my marines used non-team chat tsay and said "What do u mean u cant build siege" then after that aliens just proceeded to OC/DC rush all my outposts with fades(now that is very deadly)

this game last along time most of the time and is the best type of game you can play in ns in my opion <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> (note: i was also venting the fact that marines are NEVER up to this strat.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

d0omie · February 2003

is it possible to have FF set to on, without having tournament mode? So a pub server could not have the say ready, which would get annoying with n00bs, and then turret farms, acid spamming, Grenade spamming would end up killing a lot of friendly forces, and make the game more interesting.

HBNayr · February 2003

One marine strategy that has shown a lot of promise for 1.04 is based on one simple premise: marines are stronger than 1-Hive aliens at the beginning of the game. A powerful rush to right outside the Hive room can usually place the Kharaa immediately on the defensive, allowing a lone marine to go and quietly cap a few nodes somewhere. Only two is necessary, but on some maps, a single marine can defend three just as easily as two. The main squad keep the Kharaa on the defensive as the Commander researches Motion Tracking, and then upgrades to Armor 1 (increases a marine's life expectancy from two skulk bites to three). A quick Prototype Lab, Jetpack upgrade, and Armory upgrade. Even if the Kharaa were consistently sucessful in fighting off the marine advances, if you were able to hold two additional resource nodes, every marine should be able to get equipped with HMG/JPs. If they single-mindedly fire on the Hive, it takes only two HMG clips to go down. Enough marines in the room, and everyone still has enougn of a clip left to significantly hurt the remaining tatters of the Kharaa forces. Even if the gorge rush the second Hive, it should still be in the process of building at this point, and you have a lazy 3 minutes to figure out which Hive and stop it, and then hunt down those remaining, a simple task with Motion Tracking.

-Ryan!

From now on, ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
-- Sir Winston Churchill

Zenn · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ({DoA}DrunkMonkey @ Feb 23 2003, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> yea, fades in my opinion are a bit unballanced, even with the 54 res cost.

i had a game where we had one hive and res enough to supply around 5 ppl HA, HMG and welders to us all.
they had 2 hives and fades were around, we were trying to push them back but even with us all working together, welding each other, shooting at primary targets, setting outposts ECT we just couldn`t push back 3 fades with dc around the corner! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'> and mabye the wol <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Well, if even ONE of you had a GL instead of all HMG...you could have easily killed them all. Grenades are far and away required front line "push" weapons. Fades either run AT you, and die...or away, allowing you to advance and destroy.

SoulSkorpion · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Totenkopf22 @ Feb 24 2003, 08:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> What it is, is that fades can be whored so easily. All I ever see them doing is idiotically running side to side and firing their acid rockets through open doorways until they've annihilated all the base defenses while the skulks move in for the kill. Either the acid rocket damage needs to be toned down, or the sentry guns need to be a little more sensitive.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Pray that acid fades continue to be whored. (EW! Bad mental image. But I digress). You DON'T want melee Fades to be whored; they'll kick your backside faster and better.

ShuflY: You said you don't secure hives, and don't build turrets. I've often thought that an alternate way to win would be to secure res and tech up. How do you secure res without turrets? More to the point, how do you stop your marines being eaten for breakfast while on the way to a node, or while trying to build at a node? I've seen marines try to to this from the perspective of skulk, marine and commander and it never seems to work. What's the trick?

TeoH · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
How do you secure res without turrets?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It's never effective to secure res with turrets unless you can cover several nodes with a single TF, and even then it's debatable. You 'secure' res nodes by mining them, and then giving the aliens something else to worry about other than chomping your res nodes - ie. you attack their hive.

Edit: why aren't quote tags working all of a sudden?

Typhon · February 2003

I agree with draxon's assessment. The 'secure hives quick' strat is gradually losing its effectiveness as alien teams learn to counter properly (entire team rushes simultaneously), and once all those resources to secure the hive are down the proverbial drain, the marines are way behind in territory, nodes, and tech. So they lose.

I think the best marine tactic out there right now is to LET the aliens grab the hives they want. The marines just need to secure 3-4 additional nodes, HOLD THEM, and tech up. Then they have HMG/JP and HMG/HA by the time the second hive comes up, and they can either knock it down immediately (and secure it, quick marine win incoming unless the aliens are really well organized), or be on par with the fades that come rolling out. Then the INTENDED battle for the third hive can proceed properly: HMG/HA vs Fades.

I think more and more commanders are realizing rush strats dont work so well anymore, and are switching to teching. However, this will probably COMPLETELY change with 1.1.

Ph0enix · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Typhon @ Feb 24 2003, 10:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> However, this will probably COMPLETELY change with 1.1.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Not saying your wrong as such, but what are you basing that statement on ?

Garet_Jax · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Obliterater @ Feb 23 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The thing about fades is, that the Marines have to spend all thier money capping a hive, and turreting it, so when the fades come they are not teched up enough to fight them. Also, fades eat turrets in about 10 seconds, so all nodes that dont have phase gates are dead, which means that resorces get tight very quickly.

 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's a good point.

Also consider the minimum res. required to produce a single fade, and a single HA/HMG:

<b>Fade</b>

1 hive: 80 res
Evolve to Fade: 54 res
TOTAL *134 res*

<b>HA/HMG</b>

Weaps Lab: 45 res
Proto Lab: 45 res
Research HA: 50 res
Adv. Armoury: 35 res (or is it 25?)
Produce HA: 25 res
Produce HMG: 25 res ( i think i got HA/HMG cost wrong - might be more?)
TOTAL *225 res*

There ya have it. 134 res for a fade, 225 for a HA/HMG. Plus i left out the cost of building an armoury in the 1st place

Rainman · February 2003

I didn't read all the posts here, so there's a good chance I'll be repeating someone above. But anyway...

In my experience (and all my experience comes from pubs, BTW), when the mariens cap one hive, they have just as much chance of winning the game as the aliens. I've done it several times as commander. The trick is (as someone pointed out above) to get your marines upgraded NOT with HA/HMG, but to 2nd level ammo and armor from the arms lab. So long as you have a phase gate in a strategic position in between the hive you control and the next one you're trying to take, your mariens can cover both. Mariens do NOT need HA to counter fades. You just need HA to fight fades without losses. But in volume, LMG/LA mariens with upgrades can keep fades at bay long enough to get the upgrades needed to push THEM back.

The point is, so long as there is a stalemate between the two hive aliens, and the single hive controlled marines, time is the aliens biggest problem. Once the aliens get their second hive, they're as powerful as they can get until they get the third hive. The mariens, on the other hand, grow stronger with each minute that passes, assuming the commander is being smart and using his resources for arms labs upgrades, and not giving out HMGs that get lost easily. Stretch time out long enough, and the mariens will win almost any game, especially if they have a hive under their control.

Rainman

Totenkopf22 · February 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aries86 @ Feb 23 2003, 07:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Most of the time I command I use this strat:
First I secure one hive and dont even worry or try to get the second(send marines to keep the aliens busy). Then i proceed to get rts and tell marines to guard them. At about this time about half of my marines are swearing at me and calling me a freaking idiot and we need to go for the second hive or we automaticly lose the game. Afew minutes go by rt flow is pretty good(mainly because i didnt waste money on trying to get 2nd hive then losing it) half the marines are still swearing at me the other half(mostly regs on the server) tell them to shut up and play and that i know what im doing. im teching and have 3lvl upgrades and have everything upgraded and waiting for a good stock of rts.

This is around when aliens get fades... and omg it never fails some marines will always yell out "OMG THEY HAVE FADES ITS OVER ALL BECAUSE WE HAD A **** IDIOT COM THAT DIDNT GET THE SECOND HIVE. LETS JUST ALL F4 RIGHT NOW." this is when i proceed to tell them that they have level 3 upgrades and they can take careless fades down easy(most fades r careless at this point because they think that won).

Then fun starts i say to marines have fun and drop ALOT of hmgs nades heavy armour and say have fun(1on1 a heavy full upgrade marine kills a fade, skill makes this very), just work in groups and make your way to rts or hives(most of the time i can give everyone something) I dont know if you guys have ever played had heavy vs fades wars but it is so much fun. I think its the most fun part in NS. Most of the time after the game my marines will tell me that that was the most fun game theve ever played in.

using this tatic i have won almost every game that i can recall except one and that was because there was a server/map bug and i couldnt upgrade the tf and siege. and ofcourse one of my marines used non-team chat tsay and said "What do u mean u cant build siege" then after that aliens just proceeded to OC/DC rush all my outposts with fades(now that is very deadly)

this game last along time most of the time and is the best type of game you can play in ns in my opion <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> (note: i was also venting the fact that marines are NEVER up to this strat.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
what servers do you normally play on? you sound like a fairly good commander

Church · February 2003

I think the problem lies in your troops' mobility. You can't have phasegates at each res point and still expect to be ableto protect all of them. Becuase the kharaa still have so much ORE mobility than the marines, they can just guerrilla warfare your res nodes to hell, and you'llbe left poor, and ont he defensive.

matso · February 2003

As marine, you need to stop defending your res turrets and concentrate on taking out the enemy chambers and builders. If you don't invest 150 res points into a defended base, you are only going to lose the 22 res for the chamber, so you don't really need to defend it. Also, in an 8v8 game, the extra income from a res turret will make it pay for itself in about 1 minute. As it takes about 30 seconds for a single skulk to eat it, chances are that you will at least break even from it.

Garet_Jax · February 2003

anyone know the exact rate that an RT extracts res? im guessing its aroun 5-10 secs so u need an RT to be active for around 3 mins for it to pay for itself. but u need it to be active for around <b>15 mins</b> (to pay for itself) if u gonna defend it with 3 SGs.

Someone suggested mining the Rts. Sounds like a good idea, ive never done it before as a com, but when they explode won't FF (whether mp_friendlyfire is 1 or 0) damage the RT (as a tripped mine can kill a marine in the blast)> also when they have fades u are buggered (although 2 fades will win the game for aliens so losing a res tower doesnt make much dif.)

HBNayr · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ Feb 25 2003, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Someone suggested mining the Rts. Sounds like a good idea, ive never done it before as a com, but when they explode won't FF (whether mp_friendlyfire is 1 or 0) damage the RT (as a tripped mine can kill a marine in the blast)> also when they have fades u are buggered (although 2 fades will win the game for aliens so losing a res tower doesnt make much dif.)  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Mines are incredibly effective with RTs. There might be some friendly fire, but a mine only does 33% of its 100 damage to friendly groups, and the RT has 5,000 hit points anyways. So I wouldn't worry about it. It's very, very effective. There has been many a time I've come across an RT as a skulk, blown up, and realized that the RTs are now mined. When I come across another RT (or the same one), I'll maneuver carefully against it, and invariably be blown up by the skulk who was not <i>quite</i> as careful in maneuvering against the RT.

-Ryan!

I am returning this otherwise good typing paper to you because someone has printed gibberish all over it and put your name at the top.
-- An English Professor, Ohio University

Zombie_316 · March 2003

2 hive lock down is not the only way for marines to win, Theres this one comm i know that doesn't take hives, instead he does the tech rush and orders us to go around capping res and guarding them (no turrets required)
he usually gets level 2 upgradess, jet packs and a few hmgs by the time the 2nd hives starts

Church · March 2003

I REALY like the idea of getting all arms lab upgrades, and trying to hold out as long as possible. The problem I see in 1.04 is that the marines will lose in a war of attrition simply because the aliens will own about every res node on the map except 2 or 3 (which the marines will own). The mariens cannot defend any extra res nodes outside of hives and base (after the aliens get fade and umbra) so, in a game of attrition the aliens will win. The aliens can just go fade immediately after dying. The problem I see is that the aliens tech up too quickly in one sense. They go from skulks to fades with umbra support in one hive. The jump is SO dramatic.

shader · March 2003

meatsheild - i got no idea what the skill level of ppl is on the servers u play on, but where i play, 'rines never bother capping more than one hive, the same strat is played over and over again, go to the spot on the map with the highest concentration of res points (ie cargo on ns_nothing), cap all the res there, turret if u can protect more than one rp with a single tf, mine otherwise, hold till upgraded to jp +hmg, then go kill the hive thats building, then go kill the original hive. works almost every time.

if the server has 20+ players the marines neednt even leave their base except to cap one more res point, the res model is so unbalanced.

give up on two hive lockdown, just rush res points then keep the aliens distracted by going on the offensive. few aliens have the sense to chomp ur res nodes when someones shooting the hive with an lmg.

as for the fades+umbra - the point of this strat is that u will have jp+hmg b4 the 2nd hive is operational. aliens don't get a chance to go fade if u tech rush.

ZdrozZ · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ Feb 24 2003, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Obliterater @ Feb 23 2003, 02:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The thing about fades is, that the Marines have to spend all thier money capping a hive, and turreting it, so when the fades come they are not teched up enough to fight them. Also, fades eat turrets in about 10 seconds, so all nodes that dont have phase gates are dead, which means that resorces get tight very quickly.

</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
That's a good point.

Also consider the minimum res. required to produce a single fade, and a single HA/HMG:

<b>Fade</b>

1 hive: 80 res
Evolve to Fade: 54 res
TOTAL *134 res*

<b>HA/HMG</b>

Weaps Lab: 45 res
Proto Lab: 45 res
Research HA: 50 res
Adv. Armoury: 35 res (or is it 25?)
Produce HA: 25 res
Produce HMG: 25 res ( i think i got HA/HMG cost wrong - might be more?)
TOTAL *225 res*

There ya have it. 134 res for a fade, 225 for a HA/HMG. Plus i left out the cost of building an armoury in the 1st place  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Fade: + 3 * 14 for Defence Chambers + 3* 14 for Movement Chambers + 4 res to get cara and adrenaline
=> 222 res

Church · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shader @ Mar 6 2003, 02:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> meatsheild - i got no idea what the skill level of ppl is on the servers u play on, but where i play, 'rines never bother capping more than one hive, the same strat is played over and over again, go to the spot on the map with the highest concentration of res points (ie cargo on ns_nothing), cap all the res there, turret if u can protect more than one rp with a single tf, mine otherwise, hold till upgraded to jp +hmg, then go kill the hive thats building, then go kill the original hive. works almost every time.

if the server has 20+ players the marines neednt even leave their base except to cap one more res point, the res model is so unbalanced.

give up on two hive lockdown, just rush res points then keep the aliens distracted by going on the offensive. few aliens have the sense to chomp ur res nodes when someones shooting the hive with an lmg.

as for the fades+umbra - the point of this strat is that u will have jp+hmg b4 the 2nd hive is operational. aliens don't get a chance to go fade if u tech rush.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
LOL. You're not getting the POINT of this topic are you? EVERYONE knows that JP/HMG whoring is the easiest way for marines to win in 1,04. What we're exploring here is an ALTERNATIVE to it so not every game will be exactly the same. With the current discussion people are talking about how to hold one hive and tech up to fight fades.

A Balanced Round?

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