Answer Me This
Trevelyan_006
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3876Banned
Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3876Banned
<div class="IPBDescription">and you win...</div> What exactly is the alien Counter to 8 HA (3 HMG 5 GL) <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->??
Situation... you have 2 hives... just about every resource on the map... yet they saved up for this crap about the whole game... how do you frekin counter this?
I just got done playing 2 hour long games in a Row, ending in the same exact way (2 different maps... eclipse and bast) Both times... we got the second hive up... the whole team went fades, and we were just putting up the third when the 8 HAs hit our second hive... nothing could stop them dispite the entire team of fades going after them non stop with gorge and DC support... it was sad... very sad.
answer correctly and win the ability to stop looking at the forums and play NS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Situation... you have 2 hives... just about every resource on the map... yet they saved up for this crap about the whole game... how do you frekin counter this?
I just got done playing 2 hour long games in a Row, ending in the same exact way (2 different maps... eclipse and bast) Both times... we got the second hive up... the whole team went fades, and we were just putting up the third when the 8 HAs hit our second hive... nothing could stop them dispite the entire team of fades going after them non stop with gorge and DC support... it was sad... very sad.
answer correctly and win the ability to stop looking at the forums and play NS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comments
There's a reason that Marines are called overpowered by people who don't suck at NS.
But if you got 3 hives a 8 onos rush should do it too....
Hitting the marine base ends up in relocation and crappy stand-offs about 95% of the time now
This is the most commonly asked RTS question relating to balance. For example:
"How do you counter 100 of the uber-kill-everything-unit?"
"Don't let them get the resources to HAVE 100 of the uber-kill-everything-unit."
Seriously. 8 HAs costs 200 RPs alone. That doesn't include their weapons, welders, structures, and upgrades to get there. Keep the pressure on. If they heavily defend one area, keep it busy with hit and run attacks while other players attack weaker marine bases.
What kind of server do you play on, lets see 8 attacking + 1 comm + 4 in base = 13, and then 26. Ok good to get that out of the way. But with a nice WOL and gorge defending the hive the 12 other players attack the base. 12 vs 4, 12 will win...
What kind of server do you play on, lets see 8 attacking + 1 comm + 4 in base = 13, and then 26. Ok good to get that out of the way. But with a nice WOL and gorge defending the hive the 12 other players attack the base. 12 vs 4, 12 will win... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
damn... we never had more then 5 rush the main at once... but if we did that, they would have smashed our defences like paper and killed the hive within seconds... yea i dont know what the max server player limit was, people kept coming and going (hour is a long time!)
also... we had to keep the preasure on the hive they JUST TOOK as well... half the time our fades went without blink... and when we JUST got that hive back... some of the HAs would turn around and start smashing THAT hive.
Heh... 8 HA marines attacking, 4 marines in base AND a commander?
No need to say more. Stop playing 13v13 servers. The game isn't balanced at any higher than about 10v10 (and that's streching it - in clan games, marines wins 6v6 games as clockwork, thanks to the HMG/JP rush). Unless the marines get a REALLY crappy commander, they can't loose 13v13 games. The resource model/spawn rate just doesn't work at that size game[1].
Large games are fun, but frankly, the aliens can't use their resources as efficiently as the marines, so the huge resource inflow in large games puts the aliens at a huge strategic disadvantage, as they can't starve the marine resource income enough (as you noticed).
Technically, 5 HMG marines and 3 GL HA marines are just too much. The GL spam will make lerks and webs practically useless, and the fades can't get into close combat as they will be cut down by the HMG fire.The acid rocket damage just isn't enough to kill any HA if they use their welders well. Motion tracking makes it impossible to set up ambushes. If the marines are halfway good, you just can't stop their group.
Frankly, in 13v13 games, I'd recommend getting lvl 3 carap ASAP, then do a gorge/skulk rush on their base - 6 gorges, 7 skulks all rushing into their base, the gorges wildly healspraying around and the skulks rushing and biting. Make that LONG before they have HA/GL or have any sieges in base, and you should be pretty much set.
[1] Income is (10 + num_players * num_resnodes * 2.3) res/minute. As the marines have a fixed set of expenses[2] no matter the teamsize, it follows that larger marine teams have a huge resource advantage compared to smaller marine teams.
[2] The same size base, about (maybe an extra IP for larger games). The exact same research cost. The exact same building cost.
So you're saying you kept them in their base long enough to get 3 hives, but couldn't hold the third hive?
How come you didn't do a huge Gorge/Fade rush?
<b>This is not the case</b>
Because NS is an RTS, there are certain things that you simply cannot win against. Upon acquiring it, the game is essentially over. It <i>should not be possible</i> to come back from a sufficiently powerful attack. This is necessary for NS to not have rounds that last for hours upon hours. 8 competent HA, with 4 LA constantly respawning with a competent commander is the marine equivalent of the entire team going Onos: there is very little you can do, other than try to enjoy dying.
This is like if someone asked in the War3 forums, "My opponent came into my base with hordes of melee units, backed up by lvl 10 heroes, lots of well microed spellcasters, and plenty of seige weapons. I only had a small force of 12 archers and my lvl 3 hero. Obviously i lost but i want to know if anyone has some strategies that have worked for them in this situation."
Simply put, you got beaten. There really wasn't anything you could have done.
In the end, it comes down to who's the better team. Both sides are going to take a lot of organization to win. Still, the best is to make sure they never get to that point. It's like asking "how do you beat a carrier/corsair/arbiter force in starcraft?" Answer is "have as good or better of that force and out manage your opponent". Webs and suicidal gorges, a dash of umbra, and fades focus firing and maybe making that last sacrifice to blink in their and slash the stuck marine are your only hope.
There's a reason that Marines are called overpowered by people who don't suck at NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
amen.
You're gonna wanna hit up their main base and drop the armory and protolab asap...other then that, there is nothing you can do =(
I dont buy the "we had every res on the map!" when they are outfitting guys with 8 HA (200 res) 3 HMG (75 res) and 5 GLs (165 res)
If you look at it, thats 440 res, plus about 80 res for welders, and another 40 if not more for health/ammo drops.
You lost the res war completely if they had an attack worth 600 res
I dont buy the "we had every res on the map!" when they are outfitting guys with 8 HA (200 res) 3 HMG (75 res) and 5 GLs (165 res)
If you look at it, thats 440 res, plus about 80 res for welders, and another 40 if not more for health/ammo drops.
You lost the res war completely if they had an attack worth 600 res <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the problem is that in order to get (say) 100 res/minute, you need to hold 3 res towers in a 13v13 game and 5 in an 8v8 game. Keeping 7 playing marines away from holding 5 res nodes is fairly simple. Keeping 12 marines + commander away from two extra resnodes is fairly hard.
In fact, it is quite possible to just have EVERY marine sit INSIDE the marine start, rush JP/HMG and get and kill the aliens hive at about the five minute mark, in large enough games (you need about 200 res for the base+research, then another 34 res per HMG/JP).
As I said before, the resource model does not work for large games.
Income table, with teamsize on the left and number of res towers on the right. Note that the marines in a 4v4 game must hold 4 res towers in order to get the same income as a 16 member marine team gets from the start.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->
001,00 002,00 003,00 004,00 005,00 006,00
04 029,20 038,40 047,60 056,80 066,00 075,20
05 031,50 043,00 054,50 066,00 077,50 089,00
06 033,80 047,60 061,40 075,20 089,00 102,80
07 036,10 052,20 068,30 084,40 100,50 116,60
08 038,40 056,80 075,20 093,60 112,00 130,40
09 040,70 061,40 082,10 102,80 123,50 144,20
10 043,00 066,00 089,00 112,00 135,00 158,00
11 045,30 070,60 095,90 121,20 146,50 171,80
12 047,60 075,20 102,80 130,40 158,00 185,60
13 049,90 079,80 109,70 139,60 169,50 199,40
14 052,20 084,40 116,60 148,80 181,00 213,20
15 054,50 089,00 123,50 158,00 192,50 227,00
16 056,80 093,60 130,40 167,20 204,00 240,80
<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
'GG Nubbles'
Alternatively let a bunch of grenades go off and blink past. 5 - 8 fades should be able to kill those 3 HMGers with some fades dead. GLs aren't much use in melee apparently <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Webs would be nice but it'll probably mean a dead gorge <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, whichever way you look at it its going to be difficult and your gonna take heavy casualties. Like any RTS, the first time a tactic is used against you it floors you. Next time you struggle and die. Eventually you'll find something which works and be laughing.
This is compounded in NS because even if you manage to come up with a counter-tactic which might work on the spur of the moment, you've somehow got to tell and convince the rest of your team it's a good idea <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If it keeps happening and you find a way to stop it, come back and tell us!!
If marines survive this they should have won as long as they dont loose equipment and survive.
If aliens let marines defend the third hive and 3 ressources for 20 minutes they just suck and deserve to loose.
The HA's die. Miserably.
Situation... you have 2 hives... just about every resource on the map... yet they saved up for this crap about the whole game... how do you frekin counter this?
I just got done playing 2 hour long games in a Row, ending in the same exact way (2 different maps... eclipse and bast) Both times... we got the second hive up... the whole team went fades, and we were just putting up the third when the 8 HAs hit our second hive... nothing could stop them dispite the entire team of fades going after them non stop with gorge and DC support... it was sad... very sad.
answer correctly and win the ability to stop looking at the forums and play NS!!!!!!!!!!!! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dont let them, you see them building an important structure such as protolab and armslabs, run in there and attack the marines building it, if not try and get it while there away, they both cost over 45 resources, which is alot imo, replacing them will be costly and will set them back just that little bit further then you, but dont forget, every little helps.
Should'nt this be in Kharaa tactics?
the spam is still in my nightmares...
yes focus fire would have worked... but i dont controll the fades... or the lerks, or.... well i was the gorge.