You know why America didn't change to the metric system? Becasue we are lazy. All retail stores would have to change labels, school books would have to be changed, road signs would have to be changed, and countless others. People would have to go back to school jsut to learn how to use it. I grew up with pounds, grams, and miles, no need to change it now.
Well, now that so many people dragged this poor thread off topic6 ways from Sunday, I'll make short replies where I can:
CanadianWolverine: here is an example of what I was talking about with canadians murdering each other over differences of being english canadian and french canadian; I reckon there's more to find but that was a good enough sample for me:
<a href='http://www.uni.ca/sep_origins.html' target='_blank'>Origins of Quebec Separatism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In October 1970 a terrorist group kidnapped the British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec's labour minister, Pierre Laporte, who was subsequently murdered. The government of Quebec called in the federal government for help, and the War Measures Act was proclaimed. The usual civil liberties were suspended, some 500 people were arrested, and troops were moved into Quebec. The Canadian public generally approved of the invocation of the act, but few convictions followed, except of those accused of the murder of Laporte. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On to Nem's point. Please point out where my argument was that the english standard system of measurement is a symbol of US identity and culture. I'll wait here patiently. The only people talking about preserving their cultural heritage to the great economic damage of their countries here are the Europeans - we Americans don't give a rat's pitoot about our cultural heritage because we barely have one. We're a young country and we move fast. My point still stands until you can answer it with something related - no one has any business saying that we need to change our system of measurement to be standardized until they change all their systems of communication. That's all measurement is - a language of science; the metric system is a language of distance or volume, the same way german is a language of conquest and french one of meek surrendor. Saying that talking is more important is in fact true, but merely supports my argument all the more that you should immediately adopt esperantu.
Esperantu now!
(Notice how nice I've been and not demanded you all talk in english, even though that's the language you secretly know would be the one. You hate the thought of being tony blair's beeeyotches, doncha? DONCHA!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. It's your own fault that the spaniards and dutch couldn't hold on to the new world and let the brits walk all over them...)
I'm sure there were other points made by other people, but I'll ignore them until they stop being about Iraq and France and other places no one really cares lives or dies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On to Nem's point. Please point out where my argument was that the english standard system of measurement is a symbol of US identity and culture. I'll wait here patiently.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a test, isn't it?
You didn't claim anything like this, I didn't claim anything like this, all I said was (and let me repeat that I couldn't care less about the system you measure with) that a language is of a higher cultural importance than a measurement system, which is mainly of rational value, and thus, the comparison can't be made. Which brings us to...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]systems of communication. That's all measurement is - a language of science, the same way the metric system is a language of distance or volume. Saying that talking is more important is in fact true, but merely supports my argument all the more that you should immediately adopt esperantu.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here, you say, that measurement systems are <i>scientific</i> language, which is absolutely correct. As I already said, a measurement system is a mostly rational thing, a question of efficiency. The question whether the old British or the metric system is the more efficient one I can not answer.
Social language, however, is not. Let me give you a NS-related example: While translating NS' titles.txt, I found out that 'Hive' is being translated to 'Schwarmstock' - try to shout both in a mic. The differing language has given two words for the exactely same thing different connotations - and thus, made people link other feelings to both word and described object. This was only a minor example. Just think about the diversion of 'the' in 'der', 'die', and 'das' for one of bigger meaning. All these things determine a little bit how we are thinking, because we are thinking with those words. That's why it's almost impossible for people to entirely leave a language they were brought up in. This is what I mean by 'cultural ties' to a language, and this, amongst other things such as literature, makes a standardized language a far more ambitious aim than standardized measurement systems, which doesn't have to mean that you should change. As I said, I just don't care.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hate the thought of being tony blair's beeeyotches, doncha? DONCHA!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course. I couldn't bear the thought of him and Bush cheating on me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marik_SteeleTo rule in hell...Join Date: 2002-11-20Member: 9466Members
Just to clear a minor little something up for MonsieurEvil and the rest: the language MonsE has referred to as "Esperantu" is more commonly known as "Esperanto".
One of the main websites for information is at www.esperanto.net , and if you want to teach yourself, there are many different methods: textbooks and classes are available in various places (including several colleges/universities). There is even a self-teaching freeware software program available at www.cursodeesperanto.com.br with which you can teach yourself the language at whatever pace you like (I don't spend too much time on it, so I've only taught myself up to somewhere in lesson 2, and I'd like to improve my pronunciation.)
As to all your stuff Nem, you've lost me. Unless you were never really disagreeing with me that the US should not bother to adopt the metric system. Is this correct? We seem to be arguing a tangent about the EU adopting a standard language while everyone else is sitting around talking about how because Europe uses the metric system so should the the US. My illustration about languages was to show the fallacy of that argument. I of course know that there's no way anyone would ever consider removing all languages from europe - it's silly and pointless and would make the french even more whiney than they already are. Just like the US spending trillions (yes, with a T) to retool and rearchitect every single piece of equipment we own to design and manufacturer the world's goods in some other arbitrary size. Never mind the sheer cost of changing all those RDA serving size labels from 2 cups of cereal for your recommended calcium intake to 500 milliliters.
Are we back on common ground? Did we ever leave? Did we in fact accidentally agree for once in our lives? I certainly understand your strong feelings on regimented and standardized units - just like the Wehrmacht!
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 12:58 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 12:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just as soon as you can agree on a language and not have people murdering each other becuase they don't/do speak french/english. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> People don't murder each other in Canada over language (maybe a dozen in the last 40 years.) In fact, in Canada people don't murder each other over anything. For the past 5 years, there have been less than 600 homicides per year in the entire country of over 30 million people! Compare that to ANY large US city. Many US cities have over 1000 murders a year EACH.
Please don't assume that other countries use murder as a method of self expression in the same fashion as your own.
Ahhh vim, in your nationalism you completely miss the point. Please go start a new topic about how Canada has fewer murders then the US. It's not what we're talking about. Please re-read the entire thread, understand my point, then come back and talk about the metric system like the rest of us. Thanks.
Monsieur Evil (Should be Mister Evil since use of multiple languages does not seem to be supported in this thread)
(1) Thank you for refocussing the discussion
(2) Entire thread has been read
(3) My point is that conversion to the metric system is not as difficult or expensive as many people assume (at least that was the Canadian experience)
(5) I hope that other posters will take note of the fact that there is no direct correlation between measurement systems and languages, so arguements that measurements should not be standardized until languages are standardized is ridiculous. In fact, the metric system actually helps multilingual communications, because the units are standardized whatever the language. What is a hogshead in Ukranian? What is a rod in Swahili? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 09:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, now that so many people dragged this poor thread off topic6 ways from Sunday, I'll make short replies where I can: <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of "people" going off topic 6 ways from Sunday, who brought up the language thing? Wait, that would be yo... nevermind, I suppose WE are allowed to explore tangents of a subject.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CanadianWolverine: here is an example of what I was talking about with canadians murdering each other over differences of being english canadian and french canadian; I reckon there's more to find but that was a good enough sample for me:
<a href='http://www.uni.ca/sep_origins.html' target='_blank'>Origins of Quebec Separatism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In October 1970 a terrorist group kidnapped the British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec's labour minister, Pierre Laporte, who was subsequently murdered. The government of Quebec called in the federal government for help, and the War Measures Act was proclaimed. The usual civil liberties were suspended, some 500 people were arrested, and troops were moved into Quebec. The Canadian public generally approved of the invocation of the act, but few convictions followed, except of those accused of the murder of Laporte. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I came away from this wondering what other possible "samples" there were out there of this murderous rift in Canadian society. I searched high and low, browsing through archive after archive of news transcripts, editorials, and politics on various international news sources (CBC, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, etc. etc. etc.) on the internet, because if this was really going on and I was ignorant about it, I wanted to find out what was going on and do something about it. Do you know what I found? Nothing except for <a href='http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=Section.html&series_id=1&episode_id=10&chapter_id=4&lang=E' target='_blank'>The North West Rebellion</a> which happened even farther back in history in 1885 and then there was the <a href='http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpContent.html&episode_id=4&series_id=1&lang=E&chapter_id=1' target='_blank'>Seven Years' War</a> from 1756-1763, which you might remember your colonist ancestors fought in as well. Wait a flamin' second, I was expecting to find a few more recent "samples", with even a tiny smidge of the kind of violence in Ireland or something, but I have found bupkiss! Is this some kind of conspiracy that covers up this rift in Canada, so only an american from Raleigh, NC has found out about through his media sources? This is absurd because surely if there was this kind of conflict going on in my country, other countries' - especially our neighbour to the south - media sources would've reported something on it, as they do near every other conflict that inflicts strife and increased tensions. I don't even seem to have been able find anything on breakouts of violence when Quebec held a referendum twice on the issue of seperating from the Canadian Confederacy and striking out on their own as a soveriegn nation.
I'd also just like to point some things out in your "sample". Notice one of those kidnaped was from a foriegn country and the other was french speaking? The french Canadian "extreme seperatists" killed the other french guy and eventually let the British trade commissioner go, and they went to jail. That's right, they went to jail, they weren't executed by english Canadian soldiers sent there by the french AND english speaking Prime Minister from Quebec, Pierre Trudeau. Where is the english Canadian vs french Canadian murders even in that?
If you want to bring it up accusations, be prepared to back them up when it "goes off topic". You expect the same of others' arguments, why not your own? Honestly, how can you present things like this and expect to not get it thrown back in your face. And I'm not even going to go into how this looks as a Canadian viewing a serious view from an American.
Of <i>course</i> there is a direct correlation between units of measurement and language. They are both systems of communication that allow people to understand each other. They are fundamentally related. To say otherwise is... I don't know what, it's just silly.
All of your points on the savings are valid vim, but still do not measure up to the cost and effort of basically retooling an entire country with 300 million people and all the accompanying schools, industry, engineering, and the rest. Does no one here remember that we tried this 30 years ago? It was a huge failure. Massive. Cost billions in order to be started then discarded.
I don't think anyone here really knows the history of the Metric system and its adoptation. It was (we think) come up in 1670 by a frenchman. About a hundred years later it was formalized by the french (although later suspended by Napoleon for a few decades), and began to spread throughout europe and all of europe's colonies (explaining the world influence - it was forced to of all of europe's subjects). All of this happened before the industrial revolution. BEFORE the industrial revolution. Changing to some system of measurement before you have anything to really measure and manufacture is naturally not expensive compared to 150 years later when everything is machine-made in massive expensive factories. Whatever opinion you may have, this is fact.
I might point out that the EU is forcing the US through economic blackmail (err, I mean trade agreements) to dual-label any imported packaging with SI and metric info, and that by 2009 will no longer accept packages that are not wholy in metric. Before you start frothing and yelling, try to remember that the cost of us printing '2 cups' and '500 ml' is exactly the same, so it's no skin off our backs. Having worked in a printing press for 10 years while growing up and attest to that with ease...
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 02:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 02:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think anyone here really knows the history of the Metric system and its adoptation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, I do. the metric system was in fact invented in France as one of the sweeping social reforms of Napoleon Bonaparte (Emperor Napoleon I) 1799-1815. While most people know him as a General, he was in fact a great social administrator, developing, among other things, the Code Napoleon, a legal system based on comprehensive formal legislation, rather than the precedent system of English Common Law.
The metric system was devised to standardize weights and measures, because prior to the metric system a pound in one place was not the same weight as a pound in another place. A foot in England was longer than "un pied" in France. So the weights and measures were based on readily reproducable standards, such as water. One liter of water weighs one kilogram, for example. Of course, some French nationalism did creep in. Initially, one metre was defined as one-ten millionth of the distance from the North Pole to the Equator, measured through Paris. (When it was subsequently learned that the survey on which this distance was based was inaccurate, the standard was changed.)
The intention is to have a common system of measurement to support national and internation trade and commerce. That was true in the 19th century as it is in the 21st.
By the way, the metric system is widely used in the United States already. The scientific community uses it almost exclusively. The military also makes extensive use of metric units: 76mm and 105mm guns, Naval fuel measured in cubic metres, tactical distances in "klicks" (kilometres), and so on.
In Canada, we simply labelled everythin both ways until most people got used to it. Older people simply never converted, but young people learned the metric system in school and it quickly became the only system they know. My children have no idea how hot 80 degrees Farenheit is. But they know 30 Celsius is a hot summer day. The key point is that we have used the metric system for 30 years, which is a generation. It only takes one generation to make the change.
Let's face it. The real reticence for the US to change is your strongly held belief in personal liberty, and therefore you don't have to change if you don't want to. For example, a $2 bill or a $1 coin makes perfect sense to the rest of the world, but attempts to introduce them in the States has met with abject failure, because your culture is by and large resistant to change. I don't offer that as a criticism, only as an observation.
By the way, this is a very interesting discussion, and it is a pleasure to participate in it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I look at it this way. Imperial can be translated into metric without losing its original meaning. They exist to measure the same thing, except one is a bit more intuitive than the other. Languages cannot be translated to mean the exact same thing; they lose meaning. If imperial could not be converted into metric without losing some meaning, I wouldn't advocate it.
If it costs billions or even trillions of dollars to change labels, etc... what's wrong with that? The mars lander alone, I'm sure, cost something upwards of a few billion. Most textbooks (especially science textbooks) already use the metric system (albeit in parentheses after their imperial values), so there's little need to replace them. (Having to replace textbooks because of a system change is equall sensible as replacing history textbooks every time an important event occurs.) The US would save a lot of money by converting to metric in the long run. As is said, trade is very important for us, and differing systems make it very hard.
Heh, I agree with you on how it's interesting Vim. I do have some conflicting information from the US Metric Society though in regards to the formation of the metric system. Here's what they have to say:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1585 In his book "The Tenth" Simon Stevin suggests that a decimal system should be used for weights and measures, coinage, and divisions of the degree of arc. 1670 Authorities give credit for originating the metric system to Gabriel Mouton, a French vicar, on about this date. 1790 Thomas Jefferson proposed a decimal-based measurement system for the United States. France's Louis XVI authorized scientific investigations aimed at a reform of French weights and measures. These investigations led to the development of the first "metric" system. 1792 The U.S. Mint was formed to produce the world's first decimal currency (the U.S. dollar consisting of 100 cents). 1795 France officially adopted the metric system. 1812 Napoleon temporarily suspended the compulsory provisions of the 1795 metric system adoption. 1840 The metric system reinstated as the compulsory system in France. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, either your source is a big fan of Napoleon, or mine is not a big fan <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Note that France's official adoptation of the metric system begins in 1795, when Napoleon was still merely one of many french generals and not the leader of the country. He was busy beating the tar out of the Austrians at that point (which, combined with later humiliations of the Prussians, would give us the 'european powder keg' that led to WW1. But that's a different thread).
So, what the heck were we talking about? Oh yes, how the U.S. is not in any hurry to go metric. We're not. Thanks for the offer though.
As for Windel, I still don't think you grasp what trillions of dollars in cost would be. The US GDP (by far the largest in the world) is 10.5 trillion dollars per annum. This is just what we make, not how much it cost over the years to make things that we use to make things. It will take many many decades for us to fully convert all of our industries over. It is certainly happening in some sectors and areas, but without official US mandate, it will not likely happen in your lifetime. We don't want to because there's no point. So what if the EU wants us to put a different unit of measurement on a label for a soup can. You're still going to have to buy our soup cans, because we make the most and the best soup cans. That's a true market economy - it's the product, not the unit of measurement that matters. If we send you our soup cans with a label that says they are 275.3756400 milliliters, you will still use them to make soup. It makes not a bit of difference. You're the customer, not the supplier.
To go back to my original point, it was no big thing for France to go metric when they were not manufacturing anything in factories. <b>REREAD: it was no big thing for France to go metric when they were not manufacturing anything in factories.</b>
You cannot compare france (or any european country) in the 1700's with the USA in 2003.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 06:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As to all your stuff Nem, you've lost me. Unless you were never really disagreeing with me that the US should not bother to adopt the metric system. Is this correct? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes. For once, we agree. By the way, safe you the trouble - there is no fire raining from the skies, I already checked. I thought I had made that clear by my second post in the thread, which ended with the words: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note that I'm not advocating a change by this, I just want to say that, in my opinion, this is comparing Skulks to Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> By this, I wanted to say that I don't care whether you change or not (i.e. that I accept you don't), but believed that the 'language - measurement' comparison you had drawn previously was a rather weak argument in either case.
I still feel that my argument is just as valid as theirs. That is to say, both are retardedly impossible to implement, and mine was done to show the fallacy of theirs. Since no one ever came up a direct response, I feel t3h vindicati0nz0rs. I think vim had some good points though.
I still think all you euros should get hot with speaking esperanto. I mean, think of the savings in not having to print EuroRail passes in 10 languages anymore? YOU'D SAVE BAJIILIONS!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Feb 28 2003, 03:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Feb 28 2003, 03:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hmm. In that case we can agree to disagree. And by that, I mean I can be right and you can be wrong.
I still feel that my argument is just as valid as theirs. That is to say, both are retardedly impossible to implement, and mine was done to show the fallacy of theirs. Since no one ever came up a direct response, I feel t3h vindicati0nz0rs. I think vim had some good points though.
I still think all you euros should get hot with speaking esperanto. I mean, think of the savings in not having to print EuroRail passes in 10 languages anymore? YOU'D SAVE BAJIILIONS!!!
Heh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehe... You're a real SoB, MonsieurEvil, you just crack me up sometimes...
MEASUREMENT + LANGUAGE + LABELS + COMMERCE = M.E. PWNS!!!
This discussion is going in circles, especially M. Evil just repeats the same thing. Well, I maybe passed it but could you tell me Monsieur, howcome Europes language and USA's measurement systems are somehow connected to eachother? I mean, it is obviously more difficult to get something to work in MANY countries, instead of ONE country. So what you failed once, are you going to give up? Your smarter now, maybe you could do it this time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
And btw, many EU countries did have their currency changed as Euros, and we survived it(wow)! We are so "elite", we can change our currency without killing eachother and we got it to work. So maybe we won't be changing our languages(as stated before, its harder to convince 100 states to all change their language than one state change its measurement system). Now Monsieur Evil, you can go on as much as you wan't by saying again the stuff you've repeating here, but thats hardly appropriate behaviour for a Mod <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now think of new arguments, instead of using that language thing. Its not valid(because language is not measurement system. The rest of the world doesn't use Esperanto so we don't have to learn to speak it, other world uses metric system.) Besides, I can't understand how you do in school? I mean isn't physics/chemistry/mathics compulsory? Therefore you have to learn the metric system anyway, to calculate even the simpliest physics/chemistry. I'd say the changing from imperial to metric could be most easily done by s-l-o-w-l-y changing it. Not like over night, but more like over a generation.
Sorry for the typos, sorry for hard-to-read-post. Im just so tired, better go to bed -_-
People keep just responding 'I don't understand how measurement is a language, so it must not be, therefore MonsE is wrong', meanwhile missing the point of my analogy completely. Then they read 'it will cost the US countless trillions to replace their measurement system with ours, and it will gain them nothing really' and convert that mentally into 'we went metric in 1795, it was a snap, how hard could it be now?'.
Re-read that last part and consider it: <b>'we went metric in 1795, it was a snap, how hard could it be now?'.</b>
Now re-read it again.
And again.
Keep re-reading it until it you understand the ramifications of a massive, huge, infrastructure that took hundreds of trillions of dollars to implement with it's current measurement system, and how much concerted effort it would be to throw all of that away and do it all over again.
Then re-read it again.
Then go back and understand how measurement is language.
Then go re-read this again.
ps: Wolverine, you rule dude. If I can't be famous, I'll take infamous. Thanks! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then go back and understand how measurement is language.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you hear that sound? That's Shakespeare, Poe, Goethe and Voltaire moaning in their graves. Yes, measurement is a language, in the scientific sense, as you said it yourself. English, French, German, and Esperanto, are languages in the scientific, social, cultural, and any other sense. Please, MonsE, if you want to defend the English standard system, go ahead and bring in the cost factor, bring in the adaption process, bring in the relative uselessness of a change within a continentally closed environment, but don't bring in the word 'language'. Every time you do, I go out and kill a kitten.
Somewhere in northern Europe it is now 2.40 AM (and no smart remarks about me not knowing where I live..). Id like to say that IMHO the new latin of commerce, science and politics is english.
I cannot argue about measurements or international politics but I believe that the development of globalization will bring forth a global language that (nearly) everyone will speak. And such global language is only a beginning for a larger scale of standardization which probably will include everything from english grammar to measuring volumes and distances. Sounds a bit futuristic or overly positive in some sense, but who knows?
Boy, it really sucks to be them if the rest of the world has to pick up the English language. If you thought inches, yards, and miles were hard to figure out, wait until you start wading through the miles of idiomatic weirdness that is colloqial midwestern American English. I bet you'll really be complaining after having read a text all the way through. I mean thru. I mean threw. I mean...
Nem, you beautiful teuton ****, we finally got your country under control. 4000 years of continuous war and conquest from your neck of the woods, and we now have guys like you arguing that fine literature is better more than technical manuals on V-2 terror rockets and Coleridge beats Von Braun. Bless your little heart. Perhaps Iraq will be our Germany/Japan threepeat...
And you're right about the dead language horse, but I keep responding at this point; not bringing it up. Get your eurominions to stay on subject, fewl! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
I was going to stay away from this one but holy moly! (MonsE rocks <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Ever notice those cheap plastic rulers often used in high schools? They have both forms of measurement. Metric on one side and English on the other. Yes, once again our minds are being controlled by the man.
The attempt to switch the U.S. to metric back in the 70's suffered from the "light switch" effect. The plan to switch everyone over was shortsighted and a bit too ideological. But, the manufacturing world has slowly (secretly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) been converting tooling that's up for revisions and designing many new tools in metric. Done any work to your car lately? Better have a complete set of Fractional and Metric tools handy. So many companies have been utilizing vendors from around the world that starting new projects in Fractional just isn't practical anymore.
As an engineering student I can tell you that equal time is given to both systems in the classroom. Will we ever give it up? Hmm. Not for a long time. The electronics industries have been pushing SI a bit harder lately. And it seems that the Greens will get their wish as most automobiles will soon be almost completely powered by electric charges. When these cars start mass producing, we'll begin to see a much wider transition to SI.
What would I prefer? I'm pretty comfortable with the english system. Especially in the woodshop. Of course, trying to figure out the exact size of a 2 X 4 in Metric could take some time. But, in the end I'll end up swimming in the neat and tidy SI pool along with everyone else :/
P.S. if you want to read about a new version of the "electric" car, check this link - <a href='http://autos.msn.com/advice/standardart.aspx?contentid=4021814&src=msn' target='_blank'>http://autos.msn.com/advice/standardart.as...4021814&src=msn</a> It's too far off-topic but I'll sum up my thoughts on this article by saying, GM has stumbled onto a pretty interesting concept: Plug and Play cars!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nem, you beautiful teuton ****, we finally got your country under control. 4000 years of continuous war and conquest from your neck of the woods, and we now have guys like you arguing that fine literature is better more than technical manuals on V-2 terror rockets and Coleridge beats Von Braun. Bless your little heart. Perhaps Iraq will be our Germany/Japan threepeat... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope that was a humerous comment directed at a personal friend monse. Because I know if I was German I'd be pretty insulted by a comment like that <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sigh... If you knew Nem you'd know how he'd feel about his country's past.
Considering that he's an NS mapper and playtester, that I'm from the NS team, that both of us have been on the NS forums chatting for about 2 years, and a host of other things you should have been able to figure out for yourself, yes we are friends.
Back on topic (again with the tangent), Spooge, that's a good post. I was doing more and more research on this and it does seem that US industries are slowly doing multi-measurement systems. I know that in the printing world I started out in 18 years ago we had the regular printing system of measurement (pica's - still used in the EU by the way, for all your metricicity, as we had German printing presses), but we also used metric for really really fine measurement; like micrometers for measuring paper depth during embossing and other types of operations that depended on precise pressure on the paper surface. So we're making headway. But requiring it and making everyone do it on some idiotic mismanaged government schedule? Fugetaboutit.
(Edited to not be so mean to ryo... even though I wanted to)
Asking one person to adopt to change is easier than a whole group of people let alone a whole nation to adapt is possible but not easy. So for a nation to change in 2003 it will have to be very slow and well thought out all and every thing will have to be taken in to consideration so it most possibly which will have to take at lest a generation or two
You will have to change every person line of thinking from English to metric measurement so changing an 40 year old is harder for them to adopt metric system compared to an ten year old
As a point by MonsieurEvil why do it if it works well short term it won’t be good but on the other hand in the future it will be benefit but who cares about the future any ways :rolleyes:
As for that flogged dead horse about language change first before metric system how are you suppose to change the language if you can’t even change the metric system which is apparently considered an “language”
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You will have to change every person line of thinking from English to metric measurement so changing an 40 year old is harder for them to adopt metric system compared to an ten year old<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it's not about teaching people <i>how</i> to use the metric system. Any idiot can learn the metric system, which is the point of the metric system. It's base 10 and easy to learn. Heck, it was designed for illiterate french peasants to understand 200 years ago, so how hard can it be? It's about actually changing it. Why is this so hard for people to understand? You're in a factory. All the lathes, mills, saws, bores, etc. have been created to shape materials in SI units. You must now throw all these machines away and make new machines that do these things in the metric system. All the machines in the entire country. Are you grasping this yet folks? Has anyone here actually ever worked in a manufacturing job besides Spooge, Relic, and myself? Maybe that's why I'm having a hard time communicating this point to so many of you, because some of you are having a hard time grasping the massive infrastructure of the United States.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for that flogged dead horse about language change first before metric system how are you suppose to change the language if you can’t even change the metric system which is apparently considered an “language” <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for proving my point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->in the future it will be benefit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Benefit who? How will it benefit them? I keep hearing about all these big benefits but no one can tell me what they are. That's why I made the eurpoean language analogy before. If going metric is going to have some huge payoff for the US in the future, why isn't all of europe standardizing on one language and saving all that wasted money and time translating everything several hundred times? I can see countless savings in doing that, but as soon as I bring it up, all the euro metric fans here suddenly say that's not feasible, it wouldn't be good, it's too hard, there's no benefit, etc. This is why I used the analogy - so prove me wrong and tell me how it's in europe's (and the world's) benefit to waste all this time speaking thousands of different languages.
Esperanto - it's right there waiting for you.
See Nemesis, they keep bringing it up and getting smacked with it again. Do they not have debate clubs in your neck of the woods, man? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
MonsE, I think the main point here was presented by Vimstl: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Canada, we simply labelled everythin both ways until most people got used to it. Older people simply never converted, but young people learned the metric system in school and it quickly became the only system they know. My children have no idea how hot 80 degrees Farenheit is. But they know 30 Celsius is a hot summer day. The key point is that we have used the metric system for 30 years, which is a generation. It only takes one generation to make the change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I myself am Finnish and have no interest in the measuring system you guys use. Metric system in US would make some things easier for everyone and it is something I support, but it is naturally up to you. I'm just saying, that the change could be done slowly, over a generation of people. Imperial system wouldn't disappear, your old tools would still be the same, but the new tools would be designed with both systems in mind.
The whole language aspect of the conversation is BTW utterly ridiculous. Thanks for the ride though, it was rather surreal to watch someone compare changing measuring system to uniting EU under one language.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that the USA already uses the metric system...
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 1 2003, 12:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 1 2003, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was doing more and more research on this and it does seem that US industries are slowly doing multi-measurement systems. I know that in the printing world I started out in 18 years ago we had the regular printing system of measurement (pica's - still used in the EU by the way, for all your metricicity, as we had German printing presses), but we also used metric for really really fine measurement; like micrometers for measuring paper depth during embossing and other types of operations that depended on precise pressure on the paper surface. So we're making headway. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it occurs to me, that if others realize this they might quit using it to poke fun at the USA. I mean, Canada still uses the imperial system of measurement, construction comes to mind, but when someone from another country says "How do you measure?" we politely reply "Metric" and don't even flinch when we don't mention we still use the other, and for the most part the rest of the world hasn't a clue. So, I would have to say that when threads like this come up about how silly the USA is for being so "imperial", that anyone from the USA just respond "Imperial, what's that?" and act like a good number of countries do, that we know we secretly love our fractions too. Shh... Don't tell anyone I told you this, okay? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, language and culture sucks and rules at the same time! One day you will all bow down to the multi-culturist dictators from the great white north! Just give up now, you can't fight us, we look like everyone! Already we have infiltrated the USA's media with our actors, singers, and producers and it won't be long before they are in our terrible grip of peace and understanding propaganda. Already our marajauna gives them pyscadelic notions of love for life and consuming "poutine". You'll see, its only a matter of time before we have you loving hockey too. I'm sorry, please accept my maniacal laughter as appology: <span style='color:white'>M</span><span style='color:red'>u</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>.</span><span style='color:red'>.</span><span style='color:white'>.</span> Source: <a href='http://www.standonguard.com/' target='_blank'>No doubt A-Boot it, eh! Here's a nice site...</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->(Edited to not be so mean to ryo... even though I wanted to) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gee, thanks. I bow before you Great One <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, I figured you were friends, but considered that there might be other German posters on here? Regardless of what Nem thinks of his nations' past there are others who possibly don't agree with him. I found it insulting and I'm not even German. The faq on this forum states nothing racist: excuse me if I found that comment about German people racist.
I think it's best to let that drop right now. MonsEs joke was obviously aimed at me alone, and I don't mind - in fact, seeing that he only resorts to the Third Realm when he doesn't find any valid arguments anymore, I'm starting to get used to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
CanadianWolverine: here is an example of what I was talking about with canadians murdering each other over differences of being english canadian and french canadian; I reckon there's more to find but that was a good enough sample for me:
<a href='http://www.uni.ca/sep_origins.html' target='_blank'>Origins of Quebec Separatism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In October 1970 a terrorist group kidnapped the British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec's labour minister, Pierre Laporte, who was subsequently murdered. The government of Quebec called in the federal government for help, and the War Measures Act was proclaimed. The usual civil liberties were suspended, some 500 people were arrested, and troops were moved into Quebec. The Canadian public generally approved of the invocation of the act, but few convictions followed, except of those accused of the murder of Laporte. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On to Nem's point. Please point out where my argument was that the english standard system of measurement is a symbol of US identity and culture. I'll wait here patiently. The only people talking about preserving their cultural heritage to the great economic damage of their countries here are the Europeans - we Americans don't give a rat's pitoot about our cultural heritage because we barely have one. We're a young country and we move fast. My point still stands until you can answer it with something related - no one has any business saying that we need to change our system of measurement to be standardized until they change all their systems of communication. That's all measurement is - a language of science; the metric system is a language of distance or volume, the same way german is a language of conquest and french one of meek surrendor. Saying that talking is more important is in fact true, but merely supports my argument all the more that you should immediately adopt esperantu.
Esperantu now!
(Notice how nice I've been and not demanded you all talk in english, even though that's the language you secretly know would be the one. You hate the thought of being tony blair's beeeyotches, doncha? DONCHA!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. It's your own fault that the spaniards and dutch couldn't hold on to the new world and let the brits walk all over them...)
I'm sure there were other points made by other people, but I'll ignore them until they stop being about Iraq and France and other places no one really cares lives or dies.
This is a test, isn't it?
You didn't claim anything like this, I didn't claim anything like this, all I said was (and let me repeat that I couldn't care less about the system you measure with) that a language is of a higher cultural importance than a measurement system, which is mainly of rational value, and thus, the comparison can't be made. Which brings us to...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]systems of communication. That's all measurement is - a language of science, the same way the metric system is a language of distance or volume. Saying that talking is more important is in fact true, but merely supports my argument all the more that you should immediately adopt esperantu.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Here, you say, that measurement systems are <i>scientific</i> language, which is absolutely correct. As I already said, a measurement system is a mostly rational thing, a question of efficiency. The question whether the old British or the metric system is the more efficient one I can not answer.
Social language, however, is not. Let me give you a NS-related example: While translating NS' titles.txt, I found out that 'Hive' is being translated to 'Schwarmstock' - try to shout both in a mic.
The differing language has given two words for the exactely same thing different connotations - and thus, made people link other feelings to both word and described object. This was only a minor example. Just think about the diversion of 'the' in 'der', 'die', and 'das' for one of bigger meaning. All these things determine a little bit how we are thinking, because we are thinking with those words. That's why it's almost impossible for people to entirely leave a language they were brought up in.
This is what I mean by 'cultural ties' to a language, and this, amongst other things such as literature, makes a standardized language a far more ambitious aim than standardized measurement systems, which doesn't have to mean that you should change. As I said, I just don't care.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You hate the thought of being tony blair's beeeyotches, doncha? DONCHA!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course. I couldn't bear the thought of him and Bush cheating on me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
One of the main websites for information is at www.esperanto.net , and if you want to teach yourself, there are many different methods: textbooks and classes are available in various places (including several colleges/universities). There is even a self-teaching freeware software program available at www.cursodeesperanto.com.br with which you can teach yourself the language at whatever pace you like (I don't spend too much time on it, so I've only taught myself up to somewhere in lesson 2, and I'd like to improve my pronunciation.)
Have fun learning!
As to all your stuff Nem, you've lost me. Unless you were never really disagreeing with me that the US should not bother to adopt the metric system. Is this correct? We seem to be arguing a tangent about the EU adopting a standard language while everyone else is sitting around talking about how because Europe uses the metric system so should the the US. My illustration about languages was to show the fallacy of that argument. I of course know that there's no way anyone would ever consider removing all languages from europe - it's silly and pointless and would make the french even more whiney than they already are. Just like the US spending trillions (yes, with a T) to retool and rearchitect every single piece of equipment we own to design and manufacturer the world's goods in some other arbitrary size. Never mind the sheer cost of changing all those RDA serving size labels from 2 cups of cereal for your recommended calcium intake to 500 milliliters.
Are we back on common ground? Did we ever leave? Did we in fact accidentally agree for once in our lives? I certainly understand your strong feelings on regimented and standardized units - just like the Wehrmacht!
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
j/k - couldn't resist that last bit.
<b>Up with Esperant<i>o</i>, down with French, German, and all other non-standard languages!</b>
Just as soon as you can agree on a language and not have people murdering each other becuase they don't/do speak french/english.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
People don't murder each other in Canada over language (maybe a dozen in the last 40 years.) In fact, in Canada people don't murder each other over anything. For the past 5 years, there have been less than 600 homicides per year in the entire country of over 30 million people! Compare that to ANY large US city. Many US cities have over 1000 murders a year EACH.
Please don't assume that other countries use murder as a method of self expression in the same fashion as your own.
(1) Thank you for refocussing the discussion
(2) Entire thread has been read
(3) My point is that conversion to the metric system is not as difficult or expensive as many people assume (at least that was the Canadian experience)
(4) the US, as a participant in the international community, may find many advantages in sharing a measurement system with your international confreres. For example:
(a) you will not have mars landers crash because you failed to properly convert metres/feet
(b) you will not have commercial airliners make emergency landings as gliders because what you thought were gallons were in fact litres (this actually happened to Air Canada)
© your non-American suppliers will use the same measurements you do
(d) your non- American customers will use the same measurements you do
(e) you will get fewer speeding tickets in other countires (Speed limit 100 in Canada and elsewhere is NOT in miles per hour, unfortunately)
(f) etc.
(5) I hope that other posters will take note of the fact that there is no direct correlation between measurement systems and languages, so arguements that measurements should not be standardized until languages are standardized is ridiculous. In fact, the metric system actually helps multilingual communications, because the units are standardized whatever the language. What is a hogshead in Ukranian? What is a rod in Swahili? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Speaking of "people" going off topic 6 ways from Sunday, who brought up the language thing? Wait, that would be yo... nevermind, I suppose WE are allowed to explore tangents of a subject.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
CanadianWolverine: here is an example of what I was talking about with canadians murdering each other over differences of being english canadian and french canadian; I reckon there's more to find but that was a good enough sample for me:
<a href='http://www.uni.ca/sep_origins.html' target='_blank'>Origins of Quebec Separatism</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In October 1970 a terrorist group kidnapped the British trade commissioner, James Cross, and Quebec's labour minister, Pierre Laporte, who was subsequently murdered. The government of Quebec called in the federal government for help, and the War Measures Act was proclaimed. The usual civil liberties were suspended, some 500 people were arrested, and troops were moved into Quebec. The Canadian public generally approved of the invocation of the act, but few convictions followed, except of those accused of the murder of Laporte. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I came away from this wondering what other possible "samples" there were out there of this murderous rift in Canadian society. I searched high and low, browsing through archive after archive of news transcripts, editorials, and politics on various international news sources (CBC, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, etc. etc. etc.) on the internet, because if this was really going on and I was ignorant about it, I wanted to find out what was going on and do something about it. Do you know what I found? Nothing except for <a href='http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=Section.html&series_id=1&episode_id=10&chapter_id=4&lang=E' target='_blank'>The North West Rebellion</a> which happened even farther back in history in 1885 and then there was the <a href='http://history.cbc.ca/history/?MIval=EpContent.html&episode_id=4&series_id=1&lang=E&chapter_id=1' target='_blank'>Seven Years' War</a> from 1756-1763, which you might remember your colonist ancestors fought in as well. Wait a flamin' second, I was expecting to find a few more recent "samples", with even a tiny smidge of the kind of violence in Ireland or something, but I have found bupkiss! Is this some kind of conspiracy that covers up this rift in Canada, so only an american from Raleigh, NC has found out about through his media sources? This is absurd because surely if there was this kind of conflict going on in my country, other countries' - especially our neighbour to the south - media sources would've reported something on it, as they do near every other conflict that inflicts strife and increased tensions. I don't even seem to have been able find anything on breakouts of violence when Quebec held a referendum twice on the issue of seperating from the Canadian Confederacy and striking out on their own as a soveriegn nation.
I'd also just like to point some things out in your "sample". Notice one of those kidnaped was from a foriegn country and the other was french speaking? The french Canadian "extreme seperatists" killed the other french guy and eventually let the British trade commissioner go, and they went to jail. That's right, they went to jail, they weren't executed by english Canadian soldiers sent there by the french AND english speaking Prime Minister from Quebec, Pierre Trudeau. Where is the english Canadian vs french Canadian murders even in that?
If you want to bring it up accusations, be prepared to back them up when it "goes off topic". You expect the same of others' arguments, why not your own? Honestly, how can you present things like this and expect to not get it thrown back in your face. And I'm not even going to go into how this looks as a Canadian viewing a serious view from an American.
All of your points on the savings are valid vim, but still do not measure up to the cost and effort of basically retooling an entire country with 300 million people and all the accompanying schools, industry, engineering, and the rest. Does no one here remember that we tried this 30 years ago? It was a huge failure. Massive. Cost billions in order to be started then discarded.
I don't think anyone here really knows the history of the Metric system and its adoptation. It was (we think) come up in 1670 by a frenchman. About a hundred years later it was formalized by the french (although later suspended by Napoleon for a few decades), and began to spread throughout europe and all of europe's colonies (explaining the world influence - it was forced to of all of europe's subjects). All of this happened before the industrial revolution. BEFORE the industrial revolution. Changing to some system of measurement before you have anything to really measure and manufacture is naturally not expensive compared to 150 years later when everything is machine-made in massive expensive factories. Whatever opinion you may have, this is fact.
I might point out that the EU is forcing the US through economic blackmail (err, I mean trade agreements) to dual-label any imported packaging with SI and metric info, and that by 2009 will no longer accept packages that are not wholy in metric. Before you start frothing and yelling, try to remember that the cost of us printing '2 cups' and '500 ml' is exactly the same, so it's no skin off our backs. Having worked in a printing press for 10 years while growing up and attest to that with ease...
Well, I do. the metric system was in fact invented in France as one of the sweeping social reforms of Napoleon Bonaparte (Emperor Napoleon I) 1799-1815. While most people know him as a General, he was in fact a great social administrator, developing, among other things, the Code Napoleon, a legal system based on comprehensive formal legislation, rather than the precedent system of English Common Law.
The metric system was devised to standardize weights and measures, because prior to the metric system a pound in one place was not the same weight as a pound in another place. A foot in England was longer than "un pied" in France. So the weights and measures were based on readily reproducable standards, such as water. One liter of water weighs one kilogram, for example. Of course, some French nationalism did creep in. Initially, one metre was defined as one-ten millionth of the distance from the North Pole to the Equator, measured through Paris. (When it was subsequently learned that the survey on which this distance was based was inaccurate, the standard was changed.)
The intention is to have a common system of measurement to support national and internation trade and commerce. That was true in the 19th century as it is in the 21st.
By the way, the metric system is widely used in the United States already. The scientific community uses it almost exclusively. The military also makes extensive use of metric units: 76mm and 105mm guns, Naval fuel measured in cubic metres, tactical distances in "klicks" (kilometres), and so on.
In Canada, we simply labelled everythin both ways until most people got used to it. Older people simply never converted, but young people learned the metric system in school and it quickly became the only system they know. My children have no idea how hot 80 degrees Farenheit is. But they know 30 Celsius is a hot summer day. The key point is that we have used the metric system for 30 years, which is a generation. It only takes one generation to make the change.
Let's face it. The real reticence for the US to change is your strongly held belief in personal liberty, and therefore you don't have to change if you don't want to. For example, a $2 bill or a $1 coin makes perfect sense to the rest of the world, but attempts to introduce them in the States has met with abject failure, because your culture is by and large resistant to change. I don't offer that as a criticism, only as an observation.
By the way, this is a very interesting discussion, and it is a pleasure to participate in it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If it costs billions or even trillions of dollars to change labels, etc... what's wrong with that? The mars lander alone, I'm sure, cost something upwards of a few billion. Most textbooks (especially science textbooks) already use the metric system (albeit in parentheses after their imperial values), so there's little need to replace them. (Having to replace textbooks because of a system change is equall sensible as replacing history textbooks every time an important event occurs.) The US would save a lot of money by converting to metric in the long run. As is said, trade is very important for us, and differing systems make it very hard.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1585
In his book "The Tenth" Simon Stevin suggests that a decimal system should be used for weights and measures, coinage, and divisions of the degree of arc.
1670
Authorities give credit for originating the metric system to Gabriel Mouton, a French vicar, on about this date.
1790
Thomas Jefferson proposed a decimal-based measurement system for the United States.
France's Louis XVI authorized scientific investigations aimed at a reform of French weights and measures. These investigations led to the development of the first "metric" system.
1792
The U.S. Mint was formed to produce the world's first decimal currency (the U.S. dollar consisting of 100 cents).
1795
France officially adopted the metric system.
1812
Napoleon temporarily suspended the compulsory provisions of the 1795 metric system adoption.
1840
The metric system reinstated as the compulsory system in France. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, either your source is a big fan of Napoleon, or mine is not a big fan <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> . Note that France's official adoptation of the metric system begins in 1795, when Napoleon was still merely one of many french generals and not the leader of the country. He was busy beating the tar out of the Austrians at that point (which, combined with later humiliations of the Prussians, would give us the 'european powder keg' that led to WW1. But that's a different thread).
So, what the heck were we talking about? Oh yes, how the U.S. is not in any hurry to go metric. We're not. Thanks for the offer though.
As for Windel, I still don't think you grasp what trillions of dollars in cost would be. The US GDP (by far the largest in the world) is 10.5 trillion dollars per annum. This is just what we make, not how much it cost over the years to make things that we use to make things. It will take many many decades for us to fully convert all of our industries over. It is certainly happening in some sectors and areas, but without official US mandate, it will not likely happen in your lifetime. We don't want to because there's no point. So what if the EU wants us to put a different unit of measurement on a label for a soup can. You're still going to have to buy our soup cans, because we make the most and the best soup cans. That's a true market economy - it's the product, not the unit of measurement that matters. If we send you our soup cans with a label that says they are 275.3756400 milliliters, you will still use them to make soup. It makes not a bit of difference. You're the customer, not the supplier.
To go back to my original point, it was no big thing for France to go metric when they were not manufacturing anything in factories. <b>REREAD: it was no big thing for France to go metric when they were not manufacturing anything in factories.</b>
You cannot compare france (or any european country) in the 1700's with the USA in 2003.
Yes. For once, we agree. By the way, safe you the trouble - there is no fire raining from the skies, I already checked.
I thought I had made that clear by my second post in the thread, which ended with the words:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Note that I'm not advocating a change by this, I just want to say that, in my opinion, this is comparing Skulks to Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
By this, I wanted to say that I don't care whether you change or not (i.e. that I accept you don't), but believed that the 'language - measurement' comparison you had drawn previously was a rather weak argument in either case.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still feel that my argument is just as valid as theirs. That is to say, both are retardedly impossible to implement, and mine was done to show the fallacy of theirs. Since no one ever came up a direct response, I feel t3h vindicati0nz0rs. I think vim had some good points though.
I still think all you euros should get hot with speaking esperanto. I mean, think of the savings in not having to print EuroRail passes in 10 languages anymore? YOU'D SAVE BAJIILIONS!!!
Heh.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still feel that my argument is just as valid as theirs. That is to say, both are retardedly impossible to implement, and mine was done to show the fallacy of theirs. Since no one ever came up a direct response, I feel t3h vindicati0nz0rs. I think vim had some good points though.
I still think all you euros should get hot with speaking esperanto. I mean, think of the savings in not having to print EuroRail passes in 10 languages anymore? YOU'D SAVE BAJIILIONS!!!
Heh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehe... You're a real SoB, MonsieurEvil, you just crack me up sometimes...
MEASUREMENT + LANGUAGE + LABELS + COMMERCE = M.E. PWNS!!!
Hehe... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And btw, many EU countries did have their currency changed as Euros, and we survived it(wow)! We are so "elite", we can change our currency without killing eachother and we got it to work. So maybe we won't be changing our languages(as stated before, its harder to convince 100 states to all change their language than one state change its measurement system). Now Monsieur Evil, you can go on as much as you wan't by saying again the stuff you've repeating here, but thats hardly appropriate behaviour for a Mod <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now think of new arguments, instead of using that language thing. Its not valid(because language is not measurement system. The rest of the world doesn't use Esperanto so we don't have to learn to speak it, other world uses metric system.) Besides, I can't understand how you do in school? I mean isn't physics/chemistry/mathics compulsory? Therefore you have to learn the metric system anyway, to calculate even the simpliest physics/chemistry. I'd say the changing from imperial to metric could be most easily done by s-l-o-w-l-y changing it. Not like over night, but more like over a generation.
Sorry for the typos, sorry for hard-to-read-post. Im just so tired, better go to bed -_-
People keep just responding 'I don't understand how measurement is a language, so it must not be, therefore MonsE is wrong', meanwhile missing the point of my analogy completely. Then they read 'it will cost the US countless trillions to replace their measurement system with ours, and it will gain them nothing really' and convert that mentally into 'we went metric in 1795, it was a snap, how hard could it be now?'.
Re-read that last part and consider it: <b>'we went metric in 1795, it was a snap, how hard could it be now?'.</b>
Now re-read it again.
And again.
Keep re-reading it until it you understand the ramifications of a massive, huge, infrastructure that took hundreds of trillions of dollars to implement with it's current measurement system, and how much concerted effort it would be to throw all of that away and do it all over again.
Then re-read it again.
Then go back and understand how measurement is language.
Then go re-read this again.
ps: Wolverine, you rule dude. If I can't be famous, I'll take infamous. Thanks! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then go back and understand how measurement is language.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you hear that sound? That's Shakespeare, Poe, Goethe and Voltaire moaning in their graves.
Yes, measurement is a language, in the scientific sense, as you said it yourself. English, French, German, and Esperanto, are languages in the scientific, social, cultural, and any other sense.
Please, MonsE, if you want to defend the English standard system, go ahead and bring in the cost factor, bring in the adaption process, bring in the relative uselessness of a change within a continentally closed environment, but don't bring in the word 'language'.
Every time you do, I go out and kill a kitten.
I cannot argue about measurements or international politics but I believe that the development of globalization will bring forth a global language that (nearly) everyone will speak. And such global language is only a beginning for a larger scale of standardization which probably will include everything from english grammar to measuring volumes and distances. Sounds a bit futuristic or overly positive in some sense, but who knows?
Nem, you beautiful teuton ****, we finally got your country under control. 4000 years of continuous war and conquest from your neck of the woods, and we now have guys like you arguing that fine literature is better more than technical manuals on V-2 terror rockets and Coleridge beats Von Braun. Bless your little heart. Perhaps Iraq will be our Germany/Japan threepeat...
And you're right about the dead language horse, but I keep responding at this point; not bringing it up. Get your eurominions to stay on subject, fewl! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Ever notice those cheap plastic rulers often used in high schools? They have both forms of measurement. Metric on one side and English on the other. Yes, once again our minds are being controlled by the man.
The attempt to switch the U.S. to metric back in the 70's suffered from the "light switch" effect. The plan to switch everyone over was shortsighted and a bit too ideological. But, the manufacturing world has slowly (secretly <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) been converting tooling that's up for revisions and designing many new tools in metric. Done any work to your car lately? Better have a complete set of Fractional and Metric tools handy. So many companies have been utilizing vendors from around the world that starting new projects in Fractional just isn't practical anymore.
As an engineering student I can tell you that equal time is given to both systems in the classroom. Will we ever give it up? Hmm. Not for a long time. The electronics industries have been pushing SI a bit harder lately. And it seems that the Greens will get their wish as most automobiles will soon be almost completely powered by electric charges. When these cars start mass producing, we'll begin to see a much wider transition to SI.
What would I prefer? I'm pretty comfortable with the english system. Especially in the woodshop. Of course, trying to figure out the exact size of a 2 X 4 in Metric could take some time. But, in the end I'll end up swimming in the neat and tidy SI pool along with everyone else :/
P.S. if you want to read about a new version of the "electric" car, check this link - <a href='http://autos.msn.com/advice/standardart.aspx?contentid=4021814&src=msn' target='_blank'>http://autos.msn.com/advice/standardart.as...4021814&src=msn</a> It's too far off-topic but I'll sum up my thoughts on this article by saying, GM has stumbled onto a pretty interesting concept: Plug and Play cars!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really hope that was a humerous comment directed at a personal friend monse. Because I know if I was German I'd be pretty insulted by a comment like that <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Considering that he's an NS mapper and playtester, that I'm from the NS team, that both of us have been on the NS forums chatting for about 2 years, and a host of other things you should have been able to figure out for yourself, yes we are friends.
Back on topic (again with the tangent), Spooge, that's a good post. I was doing more and more research on this and it does seem that US industries are slowly doing multi-measurement systems. I know that in the printing world I started out in 18 years ago we had the regular printing system of measurement (pica's - still used in the EU by the way, for all your metricicity, as we had German printing presses), but we also used metric for really really fine measurement; like micrometers for measuring paper depth during embossing and other types of operations that depended on precise pressure on the paper surface. So we're making headway. But requiring it and making everyone do it on some idiotic mismanaged government schedule? Fugetaboutit.
(Edited to not be so mean to ryo... even though I wanted to)
So for a nation to change in 2003 it will have to be very slow and well thought out all and every thing will have to be taken in to consideration so it most possibly which will have to take at lest a generation or two
You will have to change every person line of thinking from English to metric measurement so changing an 40 year old is harder for them to adopt metric system compared to an ten year old
As a point by MonsieurEvil why do it if it works well short term it won’t be good but on the other hand in the future it will be benefit but who cares about the future any ways :rolleyes:
As for that flogged dead horse about language change first before metric system how are you suppose to change the language if you can’t even change the metric system which is apparently considered an “language”
it's not about teaching people <i>how</i> to use the metric system. Any idiot can learn the metric system, which is the point of the metric system. It's base 10 and easy to learn. Heck, it was designed for illiterate french peasants to understand 200 years ago, so how hard can it be? It's about actually changing it. Why is this so hard for people to understand? You're in a factory. All the lathes, mills, saws, bores, etc. have been created to shape materials in SI units. You must now throw all these machines away and make new machines that do these things in the metric system. All the machines in the entire country. Are you grasping this yet folks? Has anyone here actually ever worked in a manufacturing job besides Spooge, Relic, and myself? Maybe that's why I'm having a hard time communicating this point to so many of you, because some of you are having a hard time grasping the massive infrastructure of the United States.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As for that flogged dead horse about language change first before metric system how are you suppose to change the language if you can’t even change the metric system which is apparently considered an “language” <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for proving my point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->in the future it will be benefit <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Benefit who? How will it benefit them? I keep hearing about all these big benefits but no one can tell me what they are. That's why I made the eurpoean language analogy before. If going metric is going to have some huge payoff for the US in the future, why isn't all of europe standardizing on one language and saving all that wasted money and time translating everything several hundred times? I can see countless savings in doing that, but as soon as I bring it up, all the euro metric fans here suddenly say that's not feasible, it wouldn't be good, it's too hard, there's no benefit, etc. This is why I used the analogy - so prove me wrong and tell me how it's in europe's (and the world's) benefit to waste all this time speaking thousands of different languages.
Esperanto - it's right there waiting for you.
See Nemesis, they keep bringing it up and getting smacked with it again. Do they not have debate clubs in your neck of the woods, man? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In Canada, we simply labelled everythin both ways until most people got used to it. Older people simply never converted, but young people learned the metric system in school and it quickly became the only system they know. My children have no idea how hot 80 degrees Farenheit is. But they know 30 Celsius is a hot summer day. The key point is that we have used the metric system for 30 years, which is a generation. It only takes one generation to make the change.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I myself am Finnish and have no interest in the measuring system you guys use. Metric system in US would make some things easier for everyone and it is something I support, but it is naturally up to you. I'm just saying, that the change could be done slowly, over a generation of people. Imperial system wouldn't disappear, your old tools would still be the same, but the new tools would be designed with both systems in mind.
The whole language aspect of the conversation is BTW utterly ridiculous. Thanks for the ride though, it was rather surreal to watch someone compare changing measuring system to uniting EU under one language.
<!--QuoteBegin--MonsieurEvil+Mar 1 2003, 12:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MonsieurEvil @ Mar 1 2003, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
I was doing more and more research on this and it does seem that US industries are slowly doing multi-measurement systems. I know that in the printing world I started out in 18 years ago we had the regular printing system of measurement (pica's - still used in the EU by the way, for all your metricicity, as we had German printing presses), but we also used metric for really really fine measurement; like micrometers for measuring paper depth during embossing and other types of operations that depended on precise pressure on the paper surface. So we're making headway.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it occurs to me, that if others realize this they might quit using it to poke fun at the USA. I mean, Canada still uses the imperial system of measurement, construction comes to mind, but when someone from another country says "How do you measure?" we politely reply "Metric" and don't even flinch when we don't mention we still use the other, and for the most part the rest of the world hasn't a clue. So, I would have to say that when threads like this come up about how silly the USA is for being so "imperial", that anyone from the USA just respond "Imperial, what's that?" and act like a good number of countries do, that we know we secretly love our fractions too. Shh... Don't tell anyone I told you this, okay? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW, language and culture sucks and rules at the same time! One day you will all bow down to the multi-culturist dictators from the great white north! Just give up now, you can't fight us, we look like everyone! Already we have infiltrated the USA's media with our actors, singers, and producers and it won't be long before they are in our terrible grip of peace and understanding propaganda. Already our marajauna gives them pyscadelic notions of love for life and consuming "poutine". You'll see, its only a matter of time before we have you loving hockey too. I'm sorry, please accept my maniacal laughter as appology: <span style='color:white'>M</span><span style='color:red'>u</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>h</span><span style='color:red'>a</span><span style='color:white'>.</span><span style='color:red'>.</span><span style='color:white'>.</span>
Source: <a href='http://www.standonguard.com/' target='_blank'>No doubt A-Boot it, eh! Here's a nice site...</a>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Gee, thanks. I bow before you Great One <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, I figured you were friends, but considered that there might be other German posters on here? Regardless of what Nem thinks of his nations' past there are others who possibly don't agree with him. I found it insulting and I'm not even German. The faq on this forum states nothing racist: excuse me if I found that comment about German people racist.
MonsEs joke was obviously aimed at me alone, and I don't mind - in fact, seeing that he only resorts to the Third Realm when he doesn't find any valid arguments anymore, I'm starting to get used to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->