Are Marines Boned Until 1.1?
smarm
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12471Members
Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12471Members
From personal experience I've come to the conclusion that marines on average are nearly incapable of winning a straight game, a game in which the teams are reasonably balanced, the teams don't exceed 8 players a piece, your commander has some idea of what he's doing, no llama's, and there no exceptionally effective aliens opposing you. I've come to this conclusion based on several fundamental flaws in the balancing of the races:
Speed
Maneuverability
Uncounterable Weapons (Umbra, Web, Parasite, etc)
Resources holding
Speed, speed is one of the most important facets of Natural Selection. On a small scale it makes the khara fearsome opponents. Immense amounts of natural cover make the first tier khara nearly unstoppable, except in very specific situations. Skulks run and hide, lerks run away, gorges dodge. This natural tactical advantage leaves the marines with little besides numbers and ranged firepower, which are mitigated by their painfully slow movement rate. On a larger scale speed decides who controls the map, most likely the khara since they have the largest natural advantage. Its what makes holding resources for the marines nearly impossible and by the same token makes taking resources from the khara nearly impossible (discussed in depth later).
Maneuverability, the marines have almost no capacity for stealth. Running marines make immense amounts of noise, walking marines make no noise, but they sacrifice a large part of their speed, which makes walking a bad trade off at best, except in specific situations. Parasited marines are made useless by becoming a immense source of tactical knowledge for the khara, its often more useful to suicide than betray your teams movements.
Uncounterable weapons, this fundamental imbalance is the reason why marines have an infinitesimal chance of winning after the khara finish their second hive. In every good strategy game there are responses / strategies / technology to combat anything your opponent can do, not so in Natural Selection. Parasite: uncounterable, cheap, quick and of extreme value throughout the game. Parasite is an immense source of reconnaissance, it only costs energy, a good khara can parasite every marine and all their structures after a pass or two, thereby making the marines so sited useless for anything that the commander wishes to hold. Umbra: uncounterable, fairly expensive but manageable with full movement (read adrenaline), counters every marine weapon below the Heavy Machine Gun. Umbra, blocks something like 5/ 9 of marine fire as well as reduces damage (manual entry <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_lerk_hive.html)' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/al...lerk_hive.html)</a>, which is a bit better than 60% damage reduction, most first tier aliens take a good portion of a Light Machine Gun clip to die, while fades take a clip and a half (with armor, which every intelligent alien player takes), this is further mitigated by every aliens ability to seek cover quickly and effectively, this makes aliens under umbra effectively invincible to most everything besides a great deal of Heavy Machine Gun fire. Web: Uncounterable, cheap, fast, effectively stripe marines of every defense. Webbing when used offensively can destroy large groups of marines, no matter how they are out fitted, by stripping of their (limited) ability to move and shoot, their only advantage, they cannot fight back nor flea and are cut down uselessly. Webbing used defensively strips marines of their only late game (read after 6 minutes, when the second hive is dropped) advantage, jet packs. Webbing used in conjunction with the alien's highly effective and woefully under priced offensive structures, makes for an impassable barrier. Fades: Uncounterable, fast, cheap, highly armored, blink. Fades are highly mobile, highly armored siege and hand to hand aliens, and subsequently have no effective counter with the marines. Heavy armor can be worn down through hit and run tactics, HMG's are too slow to be effective, LMG's too weak.
Resources, with the aliens ability to take control of the map and their speed at response, marines have almost no chance at holding undefended resources, while aliens can safely roam the map and respond to a resource tower under attack. The speed with which aliens can claim resource towers also plays an important role in the game, since there is no centralized command aliens are free to communicate (through voice communication) and synchronize attacks against the marines while on player can secure resources for the rest of the team with relative autonomy, in that the player doesn't have to concentrate on planning attacks while helping the team as a whole and simultaneously denying marines access to resources and important tactical positions through the use of cheap, tough, effective, and disposable offense towers.
The defense of marine resources is also impractical in that marine static defenses are expensive and are susceptible to hit and run attacks as well as ineffective (they cant shoot through their own structures) in groupings less than 3. So in order to defend on resource node a commander must allocate no less than (25+ 3(19)) 82 resources, which is clearly ineffective early game (before 6 minutes) where speed is essential.
So for all these reasons and more, are marines worth playing until the game is balanced (hopefully) with the release of 1.1?
Please respond with constructive criticism and be willing to listen to a counter-point.
Speed
Maneuverability
Uncounterable Weapons (Umbra, Web, Parasite, etc)
Resources holding
Speed, speed is one of the most important facets of Natural Selection. On a small scale it makes the khara fearsome opponents. Immense amounts of natural cover make the first tier khara nearly unstoppable, except in very specific situations. Skulks run and hide, lerks run away, gorges dodge. This natural tactical advantage leaves the marines with little besides numbers and ranged firepower, which are mitigated by their painfully slow movement rate. On a larger scale speed decides who controls the map, most likely the khara since they have the largest natural advantage. Its what makes holding resources for the marines nearly impossible and by the same token makes taking resources from the khara nearly impossible (discussed in depth later).
Maneuverability, the marines have almost no capacity for stealth. Running marines make immense amounts of noise, walking marines make no noise, but they sacrifice a large part of their speed, which makes walking a bad trade off at best, except in specific situations. Parasited marines are made useless by becoming a immense source of tactical knowledge for the khara, its often more useful to suicide than betray your teams movements.
Uncounterable weapons, this fundamental imbalance is the reason why marines have an infinitesimal chance of winning after the khara finish their second hive. In every good strategy game there are responses / strategies / technology to combat anything your opponent can do, not so in Natural Selection. Parasite: uncounterable, cheap, quick and of extreme value throughout the game. Parasite is an immense source of reconnaissance, it only costs energy, a good khara can parasite every marine and all their structures after a pass or two, thereby making the marines so sited useless for anything that the commander wishes to hold. Umbra: uncounterable, fairly expensive but manageable with full movement (read adrenaline), counters every marine weapon below the Heavy Machine Gun. Umbra, blocks something like 5/ 9 of marine fire as well as reduces damage (manual entry <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_lerk_hive.html)' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/al...lerk_hive.html)</a>, which is a bit better than 60% damage reduction, most first tier aliens take a good portion of a Light Machine Gun clip to die, while fades take a clip and a half (with armor, which every intelligent alien player takes), this is further mitigated by every aliens ability to seek cover quickly and effectively, this makes aliens under umbra effectively invincible to most everything besides a great deal of Heavy Machine Gun fire. Web: Uncounterable, cheap, fast, effectively stripe marines of every defense. Webbing when used offensively can destroy large groups of marines, no matter how they are out fitted, by stripping of their (limited) ability to move and shoot, their only advantage, they cannot fight back nor flea and are cut down uselessly. Webbing used defensively strips marines of their only late game (read after 6 minutes, when the second hive is dropped) advantage, jet packs. Webbing used in conjunction with the alien's highly effective and woefully under priced offensive structures, makes for an impassable barrier. Fades: Uncounterable, fast, cheap, highly armored, blink. Fades are highly mobile, highly armored siege and hand to hand aliens, and subsequently have no effective counter with the marines. Heavy armor can be worn down through hit and run tactics, HMG's are too slow to be effective, LMG's too weak.
Resources, with the aliens ability to take control of the map and their speed at response, marines have almost no chance at holding undefended resources, while aliens can safely roam the map and respond to a resource tower under attack. The speed with which aliens can claim resource towers also plays an important role in the game, since there is no centralized command aliens are free to communicate (through voice communication) and synchronize attacks against the marines while on player can secure resources for the rest of the team with relative autonomy, in that the player doesn't have to concentrate on planning attacks while helping the team as a whole and simultaneously denying marines access to resources and important tactical positions through the use of cheap, tough, effective, and disposable offense towers.
The defense of marine resources is also impractical in that marine static defenses are expensive and are susceptible to hit and run attacks as well as ineffective (they cant shoot through their own structures) in groupings less than 3. So in order to defend on resource node a commander must allocate no less than (25+ 3(19)) 82 resources, which is clearly ineffective early game (before 6 minutes) where speed is essential.
So for all these reasons and more, are marines worth playing until the game is balanced (hopefully) with the release of 1.1?
Please respond with constructive criticism and be willing to listen to a counter-point.
Comments
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Umbra = knife
Web = GL
Parasite = Ehh nothing b4 1.1
ect. = Ect.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
OK <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maneuverability, the marines have almost no capacity for stealth. Running marines make immense amounts of noise, walking marines make no noise, but they sacrifice a large part of their speed, which makes walking a bad trade off at best, except in specific situations. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying there wrong or right, but for the flip side of the coin look at the number of threads saying MT is overpowered. Also, I thought walking still made noise ? I've only been silent whilst crouch-walking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Parasited marines are made useless by becoming a immense source of tactical knowledge for the khara, its often more useful to suicide than betray your teams movements.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parasited marines either defend, run around and generally cause as much of a nuisance as possible as far away from the real marine advance as possible or just type kill in console if they want a 'lame' option. All these neutralise or actually take advantage of being parasited.
RE: your entire arguement about resources...
I agree it was this way for a while, but as always, and a fact I love about NS, the players are developing. Marines have realised they are just as capable of attacking aliens RTs, and it hurts them just as much, and whilst there busy defending <b>their</b> RTs, there not attacking yours. Mines also serve as a <b>very</b> effective defense of RTs in the early game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Skulks run and hide, lerks run away, gorges dodge.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, yup, wot ?? Last time I checked a gorge could just about manage a fast paced waddle <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uncounterable weapons, this fundamental imbalance is .......HMG's are too slow to be effective, LMG's too weak.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Parasite is very useful, i've already mentioned ways around it. Besides which i'm sure I could parasite every structure and marine in a couple of passes, but the marines always seem to unsportingly start shooting at me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Umbra blocks 5/6 bullets ~ 83%. GLs are the counter to umbra, or deperate knifing attacks. Mass fire may make a lerk retreat, but I wouldn't count on it. Basically, you need GLs. Or wait till flamethrowers are in NS <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Gave welders to your JP'ers and you don't have a problem.
If a gorge starts spitting webbing at you, all I can advise is trying to jump over the webs and keep heading for the gorge.
Vs. Fades, gave me level 3 armour/weapons and i'll take down fades for you every game. Thats a 54 (you mention cheap ??) res unit down for no marine cost. Just bare in mind fades are supposed to be difficult to take down. Without those level 3 upgrades i'll also guarantee dieing every time no matter how well I fight.
I might edit this to make more sense when it's not 01:15 in the morning <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
However a few inconsistencies I noticed: Webs arent un-beatable, a welder and/or grenade launcher clears out hallways and doors in about .5 seconds. Umbra was a lot more powerful back in 1.03, and then I would have agreed on its nearly un-beatable-ness. However now I would say it simple "gets the job done". Since grenades got their power back if any half-assed comm managed to get a few res towers and got his armory upgraded. A GL will effetvily neutralize the lerks umbra.
I have noticed tho, that once the kharaa start losing a few res nodes, even from 4 down to 3. They slow down immesnely as far as teching goes. Before it used to be "Dont shoot that tower they'll know were here!" Well now I've started ordering, unless in specific situations. To kill every alien resource tower I find. In the early game the Gorge will be hurting if you take out his 2nd node, and will be delayed a lot if you take his 3rd.
While speed does naturally reside as the dominant trait of the kharaa, I would say, on an overall scale, that the strength lies to the marines. Kharaa in groups are scary. Marines in groups are devestating(unless theres a huge skill imbalance). From the get-go the marines have, what I consider, the most powerful weapon in the game: The Light Machine Gun. Versatility is what gives marines their strength, and this is the most versatile weapon I've seen a long time. It reminds me of the MP5(CS) and of the Disc Launcher(Tribes). Upgraded this sucker gets deadly. And I think with lev. 3 weapons it only takes 50 LMG shots to kill a fade now? Cuz I'm pretty sure it isnt no clip and a half. And the passive upgrades are also what give marines their strength. In terms of pure resources, after 4 fades die to a group of marines(lets say 5) thats money made. 170 for marines to 216 for aliens, 296 if you count the hive.
I'm still huge user of phase gates, and still employ a 2 hive lockdown strategy in my book, but I'm starting to learn that speed is <i>not</i> everything to this game, and that the marine's raw power can be just as much a determining factor as the alien's speed.
ZiGGY^ - thats not constructive criticism
Diablo_fx -
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Umbra = knife
Web = GL
Parasite = Ehh nothing b4 1.1
ect. = Ect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the knife doesn't do enough damage to to seriously hinder anything in the umbra and anything in the umbra is going to kill you long before you can do anything with the knife. The GL can indeed clear out webs, but it is next to useless against the gorge who is making them (see speed) and getting the rez to dump a couple of them for use in web clearing is another matter (see resources)
-_Phoenix_- -
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maneuverability, the marines have almost no capacity for stealth. Running marines make immense amounts of noise, walking marines make no noise, but they sacrifice a large part of their speed, which makes walking a bad trade off at best, except in specific situations.
I'm not saying there wrong or right, but for the flip side of the coin look at the number of threads saying MT is overpowered. Also, I thought walking still made noise ? I've only been silent whilst crouch-walking.
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I'm not sure what you mean by MT.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Parasited marines are made useless by becoming a immense source of tactical knowledge for the Kharaa, its often more useful to suicide than betray your teams movements.
Parasited marines either defend, run around and generally cause as much of a nuisance as possible as far away from the real marine advance as possible or just type kill in console if they want a 'lame' option. All these neutralise or actually take advantage of being parasited.
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That is indeed a valid tactic, but im not sure about the nuisance part, if any of my marines go off by themselves they're sure to do a little damage to some skulks before they get eaten, or get eaten at the hive or rez towers... In addition, what if the majority of the marine team is sited? As is usually the case in the early rush, aliens come in cite everyone then attack, as a commander I cant afford to have my entire team not get rez in the crucial early game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree it was this way for a while, but as always, and a fact I love about NS, the players are developing. Marines have realised they are just as capable of attacking aliens RTs, and it hurts them just as much, and whilst there busy defending their RTs, there not attacking yours. Mines also serve as a very effective defense of RTs in the early game.
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Mines are indeed a good deterrent and quite cheap, but it only takes a few hit and runs by one skulk to deplete the defense. While the tactic of attacking the alien resource towers is a good tactic in theory, attrition usually takes its tole on your early game, on every map I've ever played its trivial for a skulk to get from across the map to a resource node under attack and subdue the attackers. Of course this brings up the practice of splitting the aliens attention, this I have found is the best tactic to pull out something resembling an even game, of course aliens that use the voice communication well will usually pick apart that kind of strategy in no time. Of course all these tactics take precious time, as I've stated in "resources" the alien team can afford to be doing 3 or more things at once and dropping / collecting resources, while the human commander cannot. If a human commander get hung up on any of his "pushes" (offensive strategies) and splits his attention, it usually spells a defeat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Gave welders to your JP'ers and you don't have a problem.
If a gorge starts spitting webbing at you, all I can advise is trying to jump over the webs and keep heading for the gorge.
Vs. Fades, gave me level 3 armour/weapons and i'll take down fades for you every game. Thats a 54 (you mention cheap ??) res unit down for no marine cost. Just bare in mind fades are supposed to be difficult to take down. Without those level 3 upgrades i'll also guarantee dieing every time no matter how well I fight.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Part of the "resources" addresses these, at tier two aliens usually have all of the rez in the map, minus the one inside the marine base, so yes 54 is cheap when your resources are overflowing and growing by leaps and bounds every time you re spawn. Giving welders to my jet packers usually is an issue because of the aforementioned expense, but thats not the main problem, usually webs are coupled in close proximity with offense towers which will kill any marine in a matter of seconds, if he stops to weld, making welders impractical. As I've said above GL are impractical. I agree that taking down a fade is trivial with level 3 armor / weapons, but getting all those upgrades is impractical, as aforementioned . While jumping over the webbing is usually practical in a defensive position, when used offensively it is sprayed directly on the advancing marines, giving no time to respond.
-= Vicious =- Eclipse -
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have noticed tho, that once the kharaa start losing a few res nodes, even from 4 down to 3. They slow down immesnely as far as teching goes. Before it used to be "Dont shoot that tower they'll know were here!" Well now I've started ordering, unless in specific situations. To kill every alien resource tower I find. In the early game the Gorge will be hurting if you take out his 2nd node, and will be delayed a lot if you take his 3rd.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While certainly true, taking out resource nodes does slow down the kharaa, getting to them provides a challenge, aliens almost always place their resource nodes across the map from the marine start, as well as swarm resource towers that are under attack, not to mention the investment in time and resource it takes to move marines that far across a map crawling with kharaa. Of course just taking down resource nodes doesn't take into account the alien's ability to drop one nozzle per team mate at about 4 minute mark, making it nigh impossible to slow them down by taking out nozzles after that. Taking out a nozzle before the 4 minute mark would indeed slow them in this instance, but would not stop every member of the alien team from dropping new nozzles and replacing old ones as soon as their resources reached 33.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Light Machine Gun. Versatility is what gives marines their strength, and this is the most versatile weapon I've seen a long time. It reminds me of the MP5(CS) and of the Disc Launcher(Tribes). Upgraded this sucker gets deadly. And I think with lev. 3 weapons it only takes 50 LMG shots to kill a fade now? Cuz I'm pretty sure it isnt no clip and a half. And the passive upgrades are also what give marines their strength. In terms of pure resources, after 4 fades die to a group of marines(lets say 5) thats money made. 170 for marines to 216 for aliens, 296 if you count the hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was, of course, speaking of un-upgraded LMG shots. Your math isn't quite correct, I believe, because you're not taking into account the cover that fades can use extensively as well as the splash of the acid rockets.
Thank you all for your input, I hope to hear more form you.
HMG rush is also evens the odds in favor of marines; sure, skulks can run fast and gorge can dodge, but when 6 marines with 4 lmg and 2 hmg attack your one hive very early in the game you really can't do much even with an organized assault.
in my opinion, it's the marines that have the advantage. It's just that commanders and players don't know those advantages, and instead go tfac all their rt's from the start.
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Motion Tracking
the tactic i use if im really desperate for a win, is locking down 2 hives and teching up.
2 base defenders with mines, rest to hive 1, take hive 1, 5 Sentrys and a PG taking the res node, then send them all togehter to the next hive leaving 1 behind at the hive secured, do the same, and just keep areas defended.
this tactic always works, unless i have hopeless marines who either cant aim or dont work as a team. the thing to remember is skulks are not good at attacking entrenched marines, so if you keep the mines and sentrys flowing, you can have 2 hives turret farmed, might not be pretty, and ur marines will be raped by lvl 3 carapace skulks as u dont get upgrades for a while, but the point is you have 2 hives, and they dont. THAT is the key to victory.
Speed
Maneuverability
Uncounterable Weapons (Umbra, Web, Parasite, etc)
Resources holding
Speed, speed is one of the most important facets of Natural Selection. On a small scale it makes the khara fearsome opponents. Immense amounts of natural cover make the first tier khara nearly unstoppable, except in very specific situations. Skulks run and hide, lerks run away, gorges dodge. This natural tactical advantage leaves the marines with little besides numbers and ranged firepower, which are mitigated by their painfully slow movement rate. On a larger scale speed decides who controls the map, most likely the khara since they have the largest natural advantage. Its what makes holding resources for the marines nearly impossible and by the same token makes taking resources from the khara nearly impossible (discussed in depth later).
Maneuverability, the marines have almost no capacity for stealth. Running marines make immense amounts of noise, walking marines make no noise, but they sacrifice a large part of their speed, which makes walking a bad trade off at best, except in specific situations. Parasited marines are made useless by becoming a immense source of tactical knowledge for the khara, its often more useful to suicide than betray your teams movements.
Uncounterable weapons, this fundamental imbalance is the reason why marines have an infinitesimal chance of winning after the khara finish their second hive. In every good strategy game there are responses / strategies / technology to combat anything your opponent can do, not so in Natural Selection. Parasite: uncounterable, cheap, quick and of extreme value throughout the game. Parasite is an immense source of reconnaissance, it only costs energy, a good khara can parasite every marine and all their structures after a pass or two, thereby making the marines so sited useless for anything that the commander wishes to hold. Umbra: uncounterable, fairly expensive but manageable with full movement (read adrenaline), counters every marine weapon below the Heavy Machine Gun. Umbra, blocks something like 5/ 9 of marine fire as well as reduces damage (manual entry <a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/alien_lerk_hive.html)' target='_blank'>http://www.natural-selection.org/manual/al...lerk_hive.html)</a>, which is a bit better than 60% damage reduction, most first tier aliens take a good portion of a Light Machine Gun clip to die, while fades take a clip and a half (with armor, which every intelligent alien player takes), this is further mitigated by every aliens ability to seek cover quickly and effectively, this makes aliens under umbra effectively invincible to most everything besides a great deal of Heavy Machine Gun fire. Web: Uncounterable, cheap, fast, effectively stripe marines of every defense. Webbing when used offensively can destroy large groups of marines, no matter how they are out fitted, by stripping of their (limited) ability to move and shoot, their only advantage, they cannot fight back nor flea and are cut down uselessly. Webbing used defensively strips marines of their only late game (read after 6 minutes, when the second hive is dropped) advantage, jet packs. Webbing used in conjunction with the alien's highly effective and woefully under priced offensive structures, makes for an impassable barrier. Fades: Uncounterable, fast, cheap, highly armored, blink. Fades are highly mobile, highly armored siege and hand to hand aliens, and subsequently have no effective counter with the marines. Heavy armor can be worn down through hit and run tactics, HMG's are too slow to be effective, LMG's too weak.
Resources, with the aliens ability to take control of the map and their speed at response, marines have almost no chance at holding undefended resources, while aliens can safely roam the map and respond to a resource tower under attack. The speed with which aliens can claim resource towers also plays an important role in the game, since there is no centralized command aliens are free to communicate (through voice communication) and synchronize attacks against the marines while on player can secure resources for the rest of the team with relative autonomy, in that the player doesn't have to concentrate on planning attacks while helping the team as a whole and simultaneously denying marines access to resources and important tactical positions through the use of cheap, tough, effective, and disposable offense towers.
The defense of marine resources is also impractical in that marine static defenses are expensive and are susceptible to hit and run attacks as well as ineffective (they cant shoot through their own structures) in groupings less than 3. So in order to defend on resource node a commander must allocate no less than (25+ 3(19)) 82 resources, which is clearly ineffective early game (before 6 minutes) where speed is essential.
So for all these reasons and more, are marines worth playing until the game is balanced (hopefully) with the release of 1.1?
Please respond with constructive criticism and be willing to listen to a counter-point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
WOW
If you arent winning games and everyone is fallowing orders its probably the commanders fault.
If your commander builds tfs to secure areas your GONNA LOSE.
If your commander DOESNT upgrade guns your GONNA LOSE.
If your commander doesnt use mines your GONNA LOSE.
They should just take sentry turrets completely out of ns.
They are complete waste of 19 res.
In the beginning before aliens have carapice 1 mine = 1 dead skulk.
Heres a little tip right from the start send 90% of your team out to scout where alien hive is.
When u find it tell your team to get to an area near enemy hive and build an armory.
When armory is up have them place mines on every square inch of the area.
After area is secure start mining closer and closert o enemy hive until u are able to see it and just begin shooting.
While all this is happening 1-2 marines are getting every res node they can see.
Aliens will be so preoccupied with trying to kill the mariens attacking the hive that they will completely for get about the rest of the map.
With this your upgrades will be comin in a steady stream.
Sometimes i find myself having 2 arms labs to keep up with res.
Mythr1l - sounds good on paper, but in practice? I'm not sure, seems to be rather map dependent, in this instance I'm thinking mostly of ns_caged (The on with generators, sewer, and ventilation hives, I have trouble keeping the map names straight) its nearly impossible to dig the aliens out of ventilation as soon as they've blocked up the entrances, in addition thats two free resource nozzles they get. Your strategy does sound promising though.
Proctologic - quoted my whole article I see ;)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When u find it tell your team to get to an area near enemy hive and build an armory.
When armory is up have them place mines on every square inch of the area.
After area is secure start mining closer and closert o enemy hive until u are able to see it and just begin shooting.
While all this is happening 1-2 marines are getting every res node they can see.
Aliens will be so preoccupied with trying to kill the mariens attacking the hive that they will completely for get about the rest of the map.
With this your upgrades will be comin in a steady stream.
Sometimes i find myself having 2 arms labs to keep up with res.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is also an interesting strategy, building a beach head outside the enemy hive with mine is a good idea, though it would be vulnerable to swarms and early detection.
Thank you all for your insights. I shall try the new strategies thoughtfully provided by Proctologic and Mythr1l and see if it effects my concerns.
Well, when I command I make sure to get armor upgrade ASAP, that will let me drop health on marines in combat. So I expect every marine to be able to kill 2-3 skulks, with a bit of support from me. Now, we are talking EARLY game here, before they have any carapace. Of course, with maruding marines able to take out most every skulk they meet roaming the map, it will be awhile before the aliens get any res at all...
Works for me.
Oh, bw. In an 8v8 game, each resource tower grants about 18.6 resources per minute. A single skulk will take 30 seconds to eat it. Thus, if the skulks starts chewing on the RT after 40 seconds have passed, you make a profit.
How do you hold nodes for those precious few minutes? Have a good marine constantly patrol the res nodes (even easier if thre is a double res room) and getting backup from the comm. Have the others go gorge/RT/DC hunting, and wreak havoc on the aliens to slow them down. The marines have the advantage weapons wise at the beginning, so USE it! Slow the kharaa down with it! Killing RTs are easy especially if your comm is willing to drop a medpack or two. One person knifes the Rt while the others cover. Heck, with even one marine you have a decent chance of hearing the skulk befpre he gets to you and have you gun ready as the skulk charges in (if your marines can't do that, get better marines)
Yes, mines CAN be depleted with hit and run tactics. However, that means 1) the aliens have lost the element of surprise at that area and 2) they must retreat to get health, leaving you time to replace the mines and/or send reinforcements.
of a bit of a side note: uncarapaced skulks CAN survive a mine blast (needs extreme luck tho). I've done it once before. I didn't see a mine until it was too late, and tried to back up. The mine blew up, and I had 1 health and 0 armor.
Until 1.1, when hopefully marines can defend places LOTS better, there will be no midgame in high-level playing.