How Cheap Tactics Have Sucked The Fun Out Of N S
Savant
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">Relocation + tech rush = F4?</div> Played 10 games today as alien, lost all 10. None of them lasted very long, and none of them involved aliens getting a second hive built. Aliens were NOT 'noobs', and in fact aliens were pretty cohesive given what I have seen at other times. However, the marines always had comms that knew all the cheap tactics, and so the games never lasted longer than 15 minutes. (my use of the phrase "cheap tactics" refers to the use of tactics that give your team any kind of unfair advantage.)
To recap the loses:
<b>Nothing</b> - Marines relocate to cargo, and easily grab via with their superior spawn rate. Silo hive falls soon after. Aliens spend most of game watching from spawn queue.
<b>Nothing</b> - Marines relocate to cargo, tech rush and then kill via hive with JP/HMGs. Although aliens DID head straight to cargo at start to try and stop them, bunny hopping and medpack spam kept most marines alive.
<b>Nancy</b> - Griefer decides to screw the aliens over by going gorge repeatedly and getting killed all the while mic spamming and building nothing. Lack of gorge kick option ends this game. Aliens F4 after 5 minutes.
<b>Tanith</b> - Relocate to Cargo storage. Since aliens are in Satcom they have to take waste, but the 1 minute run to waste and the slow spawn rate gives marines the game.
<b>Tanith</b> - Lockdown reactor room and then tech rush. Waste hive falls to JP/HMG with a heavy helping of medpack spam.
<b>Hera</b> - Relocate to processing after welding open the door in marine spawn, the flood of respawned marines outnumbers the aliens trying to reach there from archiving. Once processing is secure the marines set up a massive turret farm with sieges. Aliens F4 when they realise it's hopeless.
<b>Eclipse</b> - Marine tech rush. JP/HMGs end game. Medpack spam assures the win. Hive goes down in one rush.
<b>Eclipse</b> - Marine tech rush. JP/HMGs end game quickly even with 2 lerks trying to spike them down. Medpack spam assures them unlimited life. Only takes 2 rushes before CC hive goes down.
<b>Caged</b> - Marines relocate to sewer, and then quickly push toward vent hive. The alien run from Generator to vent, along with the slow spawn rate gives the marines an easy lockdown.
<b>Bast</b> - Marines relocate to atmospheric and then tech rush. Aliens try grabbing engine room hive, but JP/HMGs hit the refinery hive before second hive finishes building. JP/HMGs easily finish the unbuilt hive with only 3 aliens alive.
As I have said in other posts, marines will always take the path of least resistance. So it's not surprising that as marines have become more 'educated' to the game, games are ending quickly in the marine's favor regardless of the tactic used.
As for relocation, frankly while I don't object to it, I REALLY think relocation should be 'locked out' for the first 10 minutes of the game. The maps were DESIGNED to have the marines starting in a certain location, and if the marines relocate at the start of the game, it gives the marines an unfair advantage. (which as we can see means they usually win.)
Yeah I know there will be a new patch coming, but with details sketchy, I can't help but wonder what will be addressed, not to mention how many months it may be before we see it.
I like the game, but I fast find myself becoming 'disenchanted' with the balance issues. When a game isn't balanced, a game isn't fun. When a game isn't fun, people won't play it. When people don't play it, you end up with a mod like FireArms. It <b>beat out</b> CS to take 'best mod of the year' awards, but died because balance issues destroyed the game.
I can only hope that NS won't suffer the same fate. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
To recap the loses:
<b>Nothing</b> - Marines relocate to cargo, and easily grab via with their superior spawn rate. Silo hive falls soon after. Aliens spend most of game watching from spawn queue.
<b>Nothing</b> - Marines relocate to cargo, tech rush and then kill via hive with JP/HMGs. Although aliens DID head straight to cargo at start to try and stop them, bunny hopping and medpack spam kept most marines alive.
<b>Nancy</b> - Griefer decides to screw the aliens over by going gorge repeatedly and getting killed all the while mic spamming and building nothing. Lack of gorge kick option ends this game. Aliens F4 after 5 minutes.
<b>Tanith</b> - Relocate to Cargo storage. Since aliens are in Satcom they have to take waste, but the 1 minute run to waste and the slow spawn rate gives marines the game.
<b>Tanith</b> - Lockdown reactor room and then tech rush. Waste hive falls to JP/HMG with a heavy helping of medpack spam.
<b>Hera</b> - Relocate to processing after welding open the door in marine spawn, the flood of respawned marines outnumbers the aliens trying to reach there from archiving. Once processing is secure the marines set up a massive turret farm with sieges. Aliens F4 when they realise it's hopeless.
<b>Eclipse</b> - Marine tech rush. JP/HMGs end game. Medpack spam assures the win. Hive goes down in one rush.
<b>Eclipse</b> - Marine tech rush. JP/HMGs end game quickly even with 2 lerks trying to spike them down. Medpack spam assures them unlimited life. Only takes 2 rushes before CC hive goes down.
<b>Caged</b> - Marines relocate to sewer, and then quickly push toward vent hive. The alien run from Generator to vent, along with the slow spawn rate gives the marines an easy lockdown.
<b>Bast</b> - Marines relocate to atmospheric and then tech rush. Aliens try grabbing engine room hive, but JP/HMGs hit the refinery hive before second hive finishes building. JP/HMGs easily finish the unbuilt hive with only 3 aliens alive.
As I have said in other posts, marines will always take the path of least resistance. So it's not surprising that as marines have become more 'educated' to the game, games are ending quickly in the marine's favor regardless of the tactic used.
As for relocation, frankly while I don't object to it, I REALLY think relocation should be 'locked out' for the first 10 minutes of the game. The maps were DESIGNED to have the marines starting in a certain location, and if the marines relocate at the start of the game, it gives the marines an unfair advantage. (which as we can see means they usually win.)
Yeah I know there will be a new patch coming, but with details sketchy, I can't help but wonder what will be addressed, not to mention how many months it may be before we see it.
I like the game, but I fast find myself becoming 'disenchanted' with the balance issues. When a game isn't balanced, a game isn't fun. When a game isn't fun, people won't play it. When people don't play it, you end up with a mod like FireArms. It <b>beat out</b> CS to take 'best mod of the year' awards, but died because balance issues destroyed the game.
I can only hope that NS won't suffer the same fate. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regards,
Savant
Comments
Want to know why?
Because Flayra wants it so.</b>
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Some maps have a huge difference in atractivity of some places (cargo) compared to other places.
This is map related unballance, and there is no way to "ballance" this.
There are just intelligent players without exploiting needed ON BOTH SIDES and it will auto-ballance itself.
The game itself is unballanced and will stay unballanced!
Everything wich is as different as NS 1.0 is unballanced!
You need to know about "auto ballancing factors", thoose factors are supporting weaker teams and nerfing stronger teams automatically IF they behave correctly.
When aliens do enough damage to m arines an ealry relocate should fail quickly.
Early relocating is DUMB! even to cargo!
When Aliens know how to act as team and know how to defend whey can defend an early rush.
Early marine rushes are GREAT as long as all marines work as team ANS as long as the main base does not stay undefended.
Apart from this i bet this 2,5 exploits were used:
- Health spamming.
- "listening" for the start hive, knowing were not to relocate to.
- almost everyone wanted to join the mwinning arine team -> there were always (!) 1-2 more marines than aliens. A huge advantage for marines in early game.
damn lame!
<b>JP rush is an old topic - jp will come much later in 1.1 and be a counter for the nerfed onos.</b>
This isn't a 'balance thread', this is more a 'will NS (as a popular game) last long enough for the patch to be delivered' thread.
If you took the time to read my message you would see I ACKNOWLEDGED that the pacth is coming. We're all aware of this fact.
However, none of us know WHAT will be addressed until the patch drops, and none of us know WHEN the patch will drop. Will it be in 6 weeks? Will it be in 6 months?
I've noticed a decline available servers and total player counts over the past few months. This is probably more a 'how are the current balance issues affecting the future of NS' thread.
How long will people continue to play an unbalanced game? Perhaps THAT is the better question to ask.
Regards,
Savant
Remember in 1.03 where 2 hives lockdown worked remarkebly well? The aliens just couldn't get down those farms.
During the first days of 1.04 you would see that the marines nearly always lost when they tried the 2 hive lockdown. Because it was slower due to the nerf of PG.
Now in the recent time the 2 hives lockdown has once again returned. But it's very different. To begin with it doesn't use PG, but it uses the JP with lmg. You might laugh now, but imagine how hard it is to take down a jper in a room like Cargo in Tanith....
Honestly you need to do something to the JP, and that's fast, it's utterly killing the balance.. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I suppose things like medpack spam, bunnyhopping, and, to a certain extent, using double siege locations are a bit cheap, but many of your other examples seem to say that using the marines' faster respawn rate is an unfair tactic. For example, what's wrong with
Caged - Marines relocate to sewer, and then quickly push toward vent hive. The alien run from Generator to vent, along with the slow spawn rate gives the marines an easy lockdown.
Tanith - Relocate to Cargo storage. Since aliens are in Satcom they have to take waste, but the 1 minute run to waste and the slow spawn rate gives marines the game.
Bast - Marines relocate to atmospheric and then tech rush. Aliens try grabbing engine room hive, but JP/HMGs hit the refinery hive before second hive finishes building. JP/HMGs easily finish the unbuilt hive with only 3 aliens alive.
It just sounds like marines winning the game however they see fit.
Thank you. Savant it is obvius this was a large server with many people on it. If there are 14 man teams or larger, all the marines need is a good (you could say cheap, but not unfair, all is fair in love and war after all) commander and there is little they can do. The only real hope you have is that the rines get multiple commanders that suck over the course of the game. At that point the aliens don't have to be good either.
Look at this way, would you say initial rushes where cheap for aliens on certain maps if there was only 2-3 players on each team?
PS: Savant, the community won't die because you don't have fun playing NS, no matter how huge your ego is.
PPS: If the rines ever double siege, the alien team deserves to lose. It only takes one skulk to discourage them enough to stop them (how ever, twice when I stopped preventing rines from getting a double siege, immedietly they got one up, so that is the fault of a team that was all crappy except me) from setting it up.
As for will ns last for 1.1. You act like thats a real question that could remotly have a negative answer.
You want a fun game of ns. Try getting good at aliens. There is a severe LACK of strong alien strategy. You all find the jp hmg rush unstopable aparantly. Well guess what. It's very stopable. ESPECIALLY on pubs. The jp hmg is strong yes, but quite counterable. Perhaps the time you spent sitting here writing out your rant could be best used sitting there and planning a counter jp hmg strat.
Lastly, if the marines relocate successfully. Then you played one hell of a crappy alien game. Marines don't just relocate, you let them relocate. Don't come back and be like "but they kept killing us" because if thats true then you didn't deserve to win anyway.
Bunny Hopping > Map Distances
Dual siege > Aliens
JP > 1 hive Aliens
1.1 > 1.4
Bhoping isnt THAT big a problem as most people dont even do it right.
Duel seiges are rare and not many exist.
1.01 is NOT better than 1.04 by all. I'll take my slightly messed up balance over buggy pos anyday.
*edit for a misspost*
need i say anymore?
oh alright then...just for the sake of constructive comments.
1.1 will tackle these problems, and will CHANGE Natural-Selection, so all balance posts from now on are totally pointless. there are several *pages* of changes that will go into 1.1 For some reason Flayra likes to be a tease and release information bit by bit... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But then again, youll only start making 1.1 balance posts....The new Onos Devour move anyone?
Not worth the aggrivation. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->PS: Savant, the community won't die because you don't have fun playing NS, no matter how huge your ego is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My aren't you the arrogant one. I never suggested that my pleasure with the game had anything to do with its popularity. What I <b>DID</b> suggest is that based on past experience with a similar mod that was just as popular as NS, that unresolved balance issues KILLED the game. In future please don't put words in my mouth. I don't know where your hands have been.
You would have had to had played FireArms to understand what I'm saying. This 'best mod of the year that beat CS' had hundreds of servers and thousands of players. The next time you play NS, use the filter option and see how many FireArms servers there are now. Usually about 30. The community at large just won't wait around forever when there are serious balance issues. This isn't because 'I say it is so' this is because I have seen it happen before. The balance issues are what killed FireArms as a mod. Sure it's still around and they are releasing a new version soon. Too bad that everyone left already. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
For all those who defend the cheap tactics, please play 25 straight games as alien and THEN come and tell me that you find the tactics acceptable. (and play on servers where 'talented' players play please)
Relocation: There is a GOOD reason the maps are made the way they are. They are desiged in a manner so that both teams have an equal chace to win. When you relocate the CC in the beginning of the game you are essentially 'redesigning' the map. That is NOT what is supposed to happen. Dropping a CC was meant to give marines a chance to prolong their lives in a case when they were near death. It was never meant to give the marines a 'choice' of where to start the game. Kenichi, get 9 of your BEST players and put them on Alien and I'll get 9 of my best players and put them on marine. I GUARANTEE that you will STILL not be able to stop a relocation. The only time I have been able to stop a relocation is when the marines are not working as a unit. If they DO work as a unit, they will succeed almost every time.
Tech rush: Totally defeats the premise of the game to be that of a struggle where aliens EVOLVE to other levels and try and survive. I really don't think the developers would write in all the code for the other hive traits and evolutions if they didn't expect aliens to ever get a second hive. Why go to all the work of planning a three hive game when aliens never get past hive one? Seems kinda pointless doesn't it? I really don't think anyone here has the guts to imply that NS games should never last more then 10-15 minutes. In that case a 'rush' tactic defeats the potential for good gameplay.
Bunny hopping: This was LONG ago acknowledged as a exploit by the devlopers and they are working to eliminate it. I certainly won't shed any tears when it is gone.
Spawn rates: Whenever you have one team that spawns faster than another team, they have an advantage. I really don't think that it takes rocket science to understand this concept.
In the end it's all about gameplay. Do you want cheap games where one team owns the other every time in under 15 minutes? Or do you want 30+ minute games where there is a pitched battle on even sides?
Personally I prefer good gameplay over cheap rushes.
If I had wanted rushes I'd go play CS.
Regards,
Savant
It has come up before, but here's a good link:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart1.htm</a>
Just something to think about.
Marines tech up and get more resource towers to accomplish it, they also must consider securing hive locations early on if they can afford it.
Aliens seem much more simple, basically, they all rush at the beginning to slow them down then at about 25-30 resources, 1 goes gorge while the rest continue to rush the base and attack any resource points in order to inconvenience and slow marines production until hive #2 goes up.
I guess the main way to stop JP/HMG rushes is to deny them of resources for as long as you can and also attack the main base if poorly defended to force them to rebuild, draining more resources.
It has come up before, but here's a good link:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart1.htm</a>
Just something to think about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I had been looking for that link for days since it so directly worked with ns. So many ns players are scrubs.
However, what I found funny was that the SAME arguemants have been used to defend the use of 'cheats' in the game. (I'm talking real cheats here, not exploits) Those who use cheats most certainly 'play to win', in their case at any cost.
Another aspect of the article that is flawed is that it assumes the game in question cannot be exploited. Chess is good example of a game that cannot be exploited. Each player has an equal chance of winning, and neither player can exploit a tactic in chess that will give him an advantage.
I compare exploits to taking a 'short cut' in a race. Hey, why run the whole race when you can take a short cut through the park? Isn't that "playing to win"?
While 'winning at all costs' may be acceptable in war, this is a GAME. It's not real. People play for fun and to enjoy the gameplay. I play to win but I do NOT lower myself to the level where I need to resort to cheats and exploits to win.
The day I need to cheat or use exploits to win playing NS is the day I stop playing NS.
Regards,
Savant
It doesnt assume a game is balanced. It assumes a game can find balance through the players constantly finding new ways to counter.
It uses an example specifically for street fighter were 1 character is considered cheating and thus no one uses them. Obviously this denounces cheats.
It also specifically says exploits are used. Alot. Try reading again.
try reading all sections of the article next time.
Would this count as an exploit?
In bast, you can build defense chambers just inside the vent to the left of the marine base(but not peeking out) then lay down some offense(peaking out) and it will keep getting healed by the defense chambers behind it and out of the way. It just came to mind because I have won almost every game as aliens doing this
Would this count as an exploit?
In bast, you can build defense chambers just inside the vent to the left of the marine base(but not peeking out) then lay down some offense(peaking out) and it will keep getting healed by the defense chambers behind it and out of the way. It just came to mind because I have won almost every game as aliens doing this <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh no that is called using your brain for innovative/unusual tactics.
Yeah I can fly around a hive and shoot it while no one can get me! I'm sorry that just sucks major butt.
And what about the other team they have to deal with some JP'er and is it fun, of course not. Its kinda like being punched and not being allowed to fight back. Thats why most people F4.
The most fun games I've had in NS didn't end up with our team winning. The most fun I've had is being a co-ordinated HA team attacking a heavily defended hive or something along those lines.
Not flying around some hive like an overworked duracell bunny on speed.
But thats just me, I'm an atmosphere freak!
Left and right, marines started falling out of the sky because of constant parasiting from 5 skulks... (and yes, it does require good aim).
Savant: How could you let the marines relocate to cargo? Its not that hard to hold them back if your team was truly "Coordinated".
Tech rush: Totally defeats the premise of the game to be that of a struggle where aliens EVOLVE to other levels and try and survive. I really don't think the developers would write in all the code for the other hive traits and evolutions if they didn't expect aliens to ever get a second hive. Why go to all the work of planning a three hive game when aliens never get past hive one? Seems kinda pointless doesn't it? I really don't think anyone here has the guts to imply that NS games should never last more then 10-15 minutes. In that case a 'rush' tactic defeats the potential for good gameplay.
Bunny hopping: This was LONG ago acknowledged as a exploit by the devlopers and they are working to eliminate it. I certainly won't shed any tears when it is gone.
Spawn rates: Whenever you have one team that spawns faster than another team, they have an advantage. I really don't think that it takes rocket science to understand this concept.
In the end it's all about gameplay. Do you want cheap games where one team owns the other every time in under 15 minutes? Or do you want 30+ minute games where there is a pitched battle on even sides?
Personally I prefer good gameplay over cheap rushes.
If I had wanted rushes I'd go play CS.
Regards,
Savant<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Relocation.
i like the way you use the word "I":
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only time <b>I</b> have been able to stop a relocation...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
its no wonder you have only stopped one relocation.
can i suggest that you try talking to your teammates and get them to help you?
Tech Rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why go to all the work of planning a three hive game when aliens never get past hive one?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in that case, stop planning the game ans start playing it. good NS players are always flexible - (for example)2 hive lock down? - break the unwritten rule and go lerk before the 2nd hive is up - spike the turrets.
Bunny Hoping.
1.1
Spawn Rates.
Aliens do infact spawn faster then marines - 8 sec instead of 10 sec. the only reason marines seem to spawn faster is they have more than one inf portal.
with 2 hives up, aliens spawn faster than marines with 2 ips (and you dont usually get many more than 2) - 5 aliens for every 4 marines (and if 5 aliens cant take down 4 marines, well, what can i say...)
Gameplay.
I agree with you on this one. there is nothing like a hour long battle, buit one team will win eventually, so, in the end, whats the difference? If you keep on losing to a rush every single game, then you need to sort your tactics out, be prepared for them, dont have all your marines humping the armoury right when the entire alien team decide to rush you.
you obviously havent quite got the idea of NS, so i suggest you <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->go play CS<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Granted, that's a pretty extreme rush. OTOH, one JP/HMG vs aliens that don't even have lvl 3 carap? GG.
Now, relocation ... I don't mind relocation. Relocation just slows down the marine tech rush - from the above, you can see that the marines don'r really need resource towers or hives. If the marines relocate, the number one priority for the aliens is to fight the marine resources and getting loads of res themselves to wall in the marines at their base (walls inside siege range is ok - if the marines wish to waste 70 to take out a WoL rather get Prototype Lab + JP research, the aliens should just chuckle).
About the time the aliens have 2 rt + 1 dc, marines can have jps.