I hope i can finally see a JP/HMG rush in action before a solution is made. I havent been able to play NS for along time (2 months, around 1.04 BETA H) so finally ordered another copy of the game, and should be back in action soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Can anyone tell me how JP/HMG Rushes work? i've been out of the action for a loooong time.
Hmph. I won't point fingers but there are a lot of 'leet' replies to a rant that, while a bit aggressive, has some valid points.
I'm going to be make this clear: THE JP RUSH IS OVERPOWERED Oh sure doing this and this and this and this and not letting them do this and this is all well and good, BUT considering how EASY a JP rush strategy is, what it takes to counter it is involved, complicated, and FAR MORE pain staking than what it takes to JP rush. Yes, it takes team work but it takes far more teamwork than the actual rush it self.
And killing 5 marines for every 4 skulks is NOT that easy. As soon as you start losing some skulks they get out numbered and they start dying EVEN FASTER. That is one of the major problems.
And on a big enough server, aliens that have to pull every string to stop a JP rush will fall to a 2 hive lock down. They can't defend 2 hives adequately in the time it takes to get JPs.
<!--QuoteBegin--supernorn2000+Mar 16 2003, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (supernorn2000 @ Mar 16 2003, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Can anyone tell me how JP/HMG Rushes work? i've been out of the action for a loooong time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it's exactly what u think.
Marines leave the base and all go cap nozzles. A couple marines may stay back to gaurd whereas the rest go out and get the nozzles and defend the odd one or two. Skulks can try and take them out but they pay for themselves very quickly on large server or they just are just shot by gaurding marines. (The munch sound is very obvious) They get 1/2 IPs, armory, arms lab (no obs), prototype, upgrade armory, and then usually drop at least 3 HMG / JP. The JPs are quite cheap now so it's easy to do this. If the comm spams enough health it's very hard for level 1 aliens.
Oops, do you know, I've been replying to the spin-off thread when I've been meaning to reply to this thread.
Errr....
Go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=26265' target='_blank'>here</a> and read what I replied there. I should have written it here. I'd copy/paste it in, but...
<!--QuoteBegin--Onuma+Mar 15 2003, 11:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Onuma @ Mar 15 2003, 11:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You didn't play well enough...it comes down to much more than getting resources, getting hive2, and then raping with fades.
You are a "newb" because you continue to whine about stuff like this.
Newbies complain, Veterans adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> elitist wankers tell everyone else they're newbs and tell everyone else how great they are at the drop of a hat.
KenichiThis is not a pie.Join Date: 2002-11-01Member: 2941Members, NS1 Playtester
All of you complaining about the jp/hmg rush should spend less time complaining and more time figuring out how to counter it. There is a very good counter to it at the moment. It takes some skill to do but works pretty well. No one has aparantly figured it out. Alot of you cant seem to do anything but complain.
Ok, i read the first post and...well...skimmed over the rest. Mostly because this is an annoying topic in my opinion, let me explain.
I played in a server today where the marines tryed to relocate to the no name hive (nancy obviously) so then they could rush to port and lock down both hives...now I'd like to point out that the marines tried 3 times to relocate and succeed slightly on the 3rd try at which point the alien team i was on rushed them again and completely wiped them out. Now, these marines werent noobs, and neither were the aliens. The thing about a relocation is that you always run a risk, which is that if you fail you've wasted resources and once you relocate you've already stiffled your resource flow. The aliens actually have several options to counter a relocation IF they know what they're doing. First off, kill the marines main resource tower to cut off their res quickly, then, if you're feeling gutsy, lock them in their new base, build all your offense towers and defense towers outside their base to stop them and camp outside and ambush them. Relocation is not a balance issue, its a matter of skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->spend less time complaining and more time figuring out how to counter it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah well a couple fades against a low tech marine team that doesn't know what to do are also unstoppable.
Stop b*tching.
Suppose aliens *DID* get the 2 hives up? Ok, then in your mind, ideal tech battle. But suppose aliens get 2 hives *before* marines have teched? Suppose aliens now actually USE TEAMWORK and waste the marines before they can tech?
Just food for thought.
There are minor/major differences between the 2 scenarios of tech disparity, but I think upon further reflection you will find that it is roughly balanced.
Except on pubs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> where you might have a bad@ss rambo to jetpak but are you going to have an alien team that works together? However I think that any players with brains would follow advice of that bad@ss if he is on alien describing strategies.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--GiG+Mar 15 2003, 05:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiG @ Mar 15 2003, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Left and right, marines started falling out of the sky because of constant parasiting from 5 skulks... (and yes, it does require good aim). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ... and that the commander doesn't drop any healthpacks on his jetpackers.
There are things you can do to hinder a jetpack rush - clan matches have been JP rushes ever since 1.0, and thus anti-JP tactics have evolved ... unfortunately, even if an alien team uses all possible anti-JP strats available right from the start, going JP is still just about the ONLY strategy used in clan matches.
Of course, the NS team is well aware of the JP rush problem - JPs will be both more expensive and have less in-air endurance in 1.1. It's also quite likely that the aliens won't be quite as dependent on their hives as they are now; if it turns out that all aliens lifeforms are available at all times, 1.1 will be much more dependent on resources rather than hives. Lock-down strategies will be less valueable, as lockdowns will simply mean that the aliens will be spending res on evolving fades rather than hives.
This of course begs the question what the marines will need to do to win in 1.1 - the JP rush won't work, hive lockdown won't work... frankly, to me it looks like we'll see a Fade nerf to compensate and allow the marines to live longer even after fades appear...oh well, just speculation.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Yep. I'm bettingthatboth fadesand onos will be nerfed lots in order to balance. I mean, if you consider the amount of punishment aliens can take AND their extreme mobility, aliens are STRONGER than marines (thanks weakened PG) if it weren't for the JP/HMG rush. YES JP/HMG is overpowered, and it will be fixed. However, the other things you mentioned like relocation is SOOOO easy to stop it's not even funny. Join a clan or watch some clan matches.
I tend to play almost exclusively on servers with 10 people or more, which from the general consensus gives a slight bias to the marine team. However, all things considered the games I play are won by either team about 50/50. Yes, there are balance issues, but the key is to acknowledge them and work around them, just like with any other obstacle. The marines are JP/HMG rushing? Try and kill the protolab, maybe. Start killing resource towers if you can. There's ALMOST always a counter to any strategy. I say "almost" because yes, after a point the game is pretty well decided. If the marines aren't well on their way to having upgrades and heavy weapons by the time Hive 2 comes up, they're more or less f00ked.
But there's no reason to give up. One game I played the other day went like this: ns_nothing, maybe 12 on 12, I join the server midgame. The marines have relocated to just outside Cargo Hive (in the crooked hallways) and while they DO have an arms lab and protolab, there are no upgrades yet and the turrets are taking a beating. After a minute or two we get JP, by which time I've noticed that the stretch between our new base and the Marine Start is clear of aliens. I get a JP out of the commander, zoom off through Marine Start and down to Power Silo. After a couple minutes of walking back and forth to clear out the immense webbing in the doorway, I fly in and hide up in the rafters. The comm sees me and drops a phase gate and a turret factory. I should mention that at this point the Aliens are putting up Cargo hive because we simply can't get in there to stop them.
A few helpers come through the phase and we get turrets set up, meanwhile the comm gets us grenade launchers and hmg. Shortly afterward, Silo hive is down, and the aliens are stuck with a half-done second hive and no movement chambers for the moment (conveniently I guess they were all in Powersilo). This is about half an hour after I joined the server, but we've definitely started to come back. Our Silo raiding party phases back to base, and we take out Cargo hive. The aliens retreat to Viaduct and build up massive amounts of Offense and Defense, so it takes us a good half hour before we're in a position to siege the hive itself. Most of the aliens go Lerk, having put up a couple of movements in the minutes Cargo was up. We spend the next half hour trying to hold back 6 Lerks and 5 Skulks right outside their hive while we attempt to build sieges. They manage to wipe out our little outpost about three times, but we finally kill them, nearly 2 hours after I joined the server.
Now, how did the aliens manage to lose, you ask? Simple: A glaring oversight in their defenses. This is the how most games are decided (at least the ones I see), not by questions of balance and cheap tactics. Up until your whole team is dead and the enemy is rampaging through your undefended base, there is ALWAYS a chance of winning. Hell, I managed to bring an alien team back from NO hives and just me still alive against JP/HMG and we won, once. Granted the marine comm was slightly mine-happy, but we still came back.
I'll tell you whats sucking the fun out of the game: it's the finicky hit registration.
First, there is the hitboxes. Sure I can demonstrate to the people I play with regularly where to aim, but expecting the public to know the intricacies of working around the hitboxes is a fallacy. And why should any player have to memorize counter-intuitive hit boxes?
On top of that, is Valve's anti-lag horseshit. It's nice that people with analog modems can play, but not at the expense of people with decent connections; I'm not a democrat. I'm not exactly sure what control is given to MOD teams over this aspect of the game. If nothing else, it'd be nice to have interpretation variables locked.
I'm getting sick of bites/shots not registering, and of being shot three or four steps around a corner.
The notion of trying to fine balance a game with so many bug-related uncertainty is absurd. I've not been keeping up with whats happening with 1.1, but I really hope these simple bugs/oversights are fixed.
<!--QuoteBegin--GiG+Mar 15 2003, 10:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiG @ Mar 15 2003, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is possible to counter a JP/HMG rush with one hive, use parasite. Last night on caged, a JP/HMG marine flew in from sewer and started attacking ventilation hive and our team started to panic and say "lets f4, its hopeless", but then, someone had a bright idea to use parasite to kill those pesky JPers. Left and right, marines started falling out of the sky because of constant parasiting from 5 skulks... (and yes, it does require good aim).
Savant: How could you let the marines relocate to cargo? Its not that hard to hold them back if your team was truly "Coordinated". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You must be kidding me. If those marines had just had one gram of brain they would understand to shoot those parasiting skulks. Skulks without carap = instant death from 5 bullets, with lvl3 carap you would survive an amazing amount of 7 bullets. So how hard can it be?
Well, the main balance problems, except for jetpacks, seem to be due to the maps. Obvious things like processing, or pre-1.04 siege ofengine room on Bast. Less obvious things like building tf/sieges in the oven at Steam generation on Bast, where skulks can't hit them, or relocating to out-of-map areas will be fixed in new maps. A problem is that the alien spawn hive is variable. This gives no advantage to the aliens, as the commander can quickly remove uncertainty about the location. But it does, sometimes, give an advantage to marines. For a marine, each hive can be reached in more or less the same time from their start location, on most maps. For aliens it's more variable, for example on eclipse getting from eclipse command to maintenance takes about twice as long as going to computer core. That may mean aliens have to split up their forces to defend both hives, and can be taken down by marines who can take each spot with more or less equal ease.
Related to this is mobility, especially of the skulk. Compare its wall-walking to that of the alien in AvP. There are the obvious differences such as view orientation, how jumping works, field of view,... Beyond that, however, there is an important difference in how the game is played. The AvP alien is at home on any surface, no matter if it's the floor, the ceiling, or a wall. Transitions are seamless. The skulk is only really comfortable on a floor. On a wall or ceiling the slightest bump is an almost insurmountable barrier. Even walls that might be expected to be easy can turn out to be hard, for example some of the conical sections of the burner in refinery are hard to climb. It may be a coding or a mapping issue, but it hurts the skulks badly (of course, it has been like this all the time). I think that if skulks had a more AvP-like wallwalking ability (even without the bigger view angle or orientation, just the mobility), jetpackers would have much more problems staying alive.
<!--QuoteBegin--wlibaers+Mar 16 2003, 08:14 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wlibaers @ Mar 16 2003, 08:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, the main balance problems, except for jetpacks, seem to be due to the maps. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I would agree in situations like the 3 res nodes at cargo, or the double siege point in processing.
However, the relocation aspect of play is something NO mapper can take into account otherwise. It seems to be contradictory to have a 'marine start' that is abandoned for a location that gives the marine team an advantage. How can a mapper account for that? He can't stop them from building anywhere on the map or he would have to stop them from building everywhere on the map.
Imagine if ALIENS could relocate hives!!! Could you imagine how unbalanced that would be if aliens could drop hives anywhere?
The game start locations (hives and CC) are in the game for a REASON. Circumventing those locations can only degrade overall gameplay.
If people want to keep early game CC relocation in, then perhaps we can add in that aliens can drop a hive ANYWHERE as well. That would be fair... right?
1 thing I DO notice that seems particularly unfair is the jetpack energy in 1.04. I mean it recovers so quickly that u can hover eternally. But what gets me is that the lerk cant even fly around for that long!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> (at least not without an adrenaline upgrade but even then the lerk still isnt quite on par with a jetpack flight)
They should either make JPs more expensive(like 15 or even 20 rez instead of 9, I mean, comon) or jus nerf its energy recovery rate, but NOT as low as it was in 1.03.
I do believe part of the strat of gorge is place chambers in locations(not just surrounding marine base or guarding hives) that would be advantageous for marines to build a big bad base in.
<!--QuoteBegin--Butt monkey salad+Mar 16 2003, 01:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Butt monkey salad @ Mar 16 2003, 01:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 thing I DO notice that seems particularly unfair is the jetpack energy in 1.04. I mean it recovers so quickly that u can hover eternally. But what gets me is that the lerk cant even fly around for that long!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> (at least not without an adrenaline upgrade but even then the lerk still isnt quite on par with a jetpack flight)
They should either make JPs more expensive(like 15 or even 20 rez instead of 9, I mean, comon) or jus nerf its energy recovery rate, but NOT as low as it was in 1.03. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1.1 = improved lerk.
And jetpacks will be the counter to the Onos. So i doubt that the lerks will be equal to the jetpacks, but you are right, Lerks just cant fly very long at the moment.
I have no problem with marines relocating in general. It's just problematic if the map gives them a relocation spot that can siege two places at once. Certain regions have a very high strategic value for the marines, processing probably being the best example. The aliens have no such locations (except for hives obviously), the only benefit they get from holding a location like processing is that the marines do not hold it.
The jetpack fuel recharge should change, certainly, but not just lowered. The fast recharge rate applies only to those with a very high fps. I usually get lower fps, and that makes the pack very hard to use. To land on ledges, timing and control must be very good, because if I miss my landing spot I usually won't have the thrust to correct my approach, and maybe not even enough to prevent smashing into the floor too hard. I can still get to just about any place a lerk, skulk or other jetpacker could, but I can't hover around forever and I can't afford mistakes. It's more like a long distance jumping device for me (remember the end of Half-Life single player, though not quite that bad). If they weaken the jetpack even more, I'm not sure if I'll even get off the floor <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and a observation on Murphy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Murphy was a optimist. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus i can only assume what will go wrong will, in a grevous way. And should anything work, something is wrong. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, FireArms died because of ballance issues. M80 sniper rifle is AV (anti-vehicle) NOT AP! (anti-personel) Machine guns were neutered. Famas and AK series owned. Sub MP5 owned in general. Armor did nothing; more specifically hemlets. Medic and Marks skills were most used; stealth/agility was least used. Crap ballance in that game, and it didn't have buildings or a strategy in general! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Hence i left it and hence i am here today.
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
If you ask me, relocation to a hive as a base is just a good tactic. I dont see why this is such a problem considering the marines are supposed to destroy the hives and secure them anyway.
The aliens have huge speed advantages and the marines need to make up for this advantage in anyway. Plus there is the other advantage that the marines have one less area to defend. Jetpacks and phasegates help to counter and balance the speed problem. Medpacks counter the DT collections that alien stick outside the alien base when they attack it.
Its a matter of team cooridination and planning in my opinion.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
We are looking for a game where tactical skill will carry the day, moderated by "decisive action" by players, e.g. Efficiently killing enemy expansions, taking out key objectives, resource control etc.
I rather like balance (broadly speaking) as it stands. We will try not to deviate too far from the current scenario. Costs may be increased/power of said abilities may be reduced, but overall we'll be striving to keep a similar dynamic balance.
Umm... first off i would like to point out if your relocating.. that deviates from a true tech rush... AND if they do get this relocation / tech rush off... check how much rsr you get from each node.. i've been seeing +2 rsr gains in many servers giving marines even more of a tech advantage since the hive build time doesnt shorten as well <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
These tactics arent cheap. This game needs balancing between the two sides, now "perfect" balance is an impossible achievment so what results is the current version created by the best efforts of the devs after lots of testing.
Now that the game has been out some time, the players have arrived at a set of strategys that will most effectively win the game for thier team (the whole point of NS). Now these strategies maybe be extremely difficult for the other side to counter which is a matter of balance, which can be changed to improve the ability of a particular side to produce a countermeasure.
So dont call these tactics lame, theyre the result of player ingenuity. Try coming up with a counter to them and if you cannot, suggest ways of improving balance.
This is an amusing article on people who cry "lame"
<!--QuoteBegin--bigjangin+Mar 15 2003, 11:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bigjangin @ Mar 15 2003, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> guess what? I played about ten games last night and aliens won nine. Its really about which team is more coordinated. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I cannot agree more.
Comments
I havent been able to play NS for along time (2 months, around 1.04 BETA H)
so finally ordered another copy of the game, and should be back in action soon <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Can anyone tell me how JP/HMG Rushes work? i've been out of the action for a loooong time.
You are a "newb" because you continue to whine about stuff like this.
Newbies complain, Veterans adapt.
I'm going to be make this clear: THE JP RUSH IS OVERPOWERED
Oh sure doing this and this and this and this and not letting them do this and this is all well and good, BUT considering how EASY a JP rush strategy is, what it takes to counter it is involved, complicated, and FAR MORE pain staking than what it takes to JP rush. Yes, it takes team work but it takes far more teamwork than the actual rush it self.
And killing 5 marines for every 4 skulks is NOT that easy. As soon as you start losing some skulks they get out numbered and they start dying EVEN FASTER. That is one of the major problems.
And on a big enough server, aliens that have to pull every string to stop a JP rush will fall to a 2 hive lock down. They can't defend 2 hives adequately in the time it takes to get JPs.
Well it's exactly what u think.
Marines leave the base and all go cap nozzles. A couple marines may stay back to gaurd whereas the rest go out and get the nozzles and defend the odd one or two. Skulks can try and take them out but they pay for themselves very quickly on large server or they just are just shot by gaurding marines. (The munch sound is very obvious)
They get 1/2 IPs, armory, arms lab (no obs), prototype, upgrade armory, and then usually drop at least 3 HMG / JP. The JPs are quite cheap now so it's easy to do this. If the comm spams enough health it's very hard for level 1 aliens.
Errr....
Go <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=26265' target='_blank'>here</a> and read what I replied there. I should have written it here. I'd copy/paste it in, but...
You are a "newb" because you continue to whine about stuff like this.
Newbies complain, Veterans adapt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
elitist wankers tell everyone else they're newbs and tell everyone else how great they are at the drop of a hat.
I played in a server today where the marines tryed to relocate to the no name hive (nancy obviously) so then they could rush to port and lock down both hives...now I'd like to point out that the marines tried 3 times to relocate and succeed slightly on the 3rd try at which point the alien team i was on rushed them again and completely wiped them out. Now, these marines werent noobs, and neither were the aliens. The thing about a relocation is that you always run a risk, which is that if you fail you've wasted resources and once you relocate you've already stiffled your resource flow. The aliens actually have several options to counter a relocation IF they know what they're doing. First off, kill the marines main resource tower to cut off their res quickly, then, if you're feeling gutsy, lock them in their new base, build all your offense towers and defense towers outside their base to stop them and camp outside and ambush them. Relocation is not a balance issue, its a matter of skill.
Hasty reply, got a match, gg, later.
Hear hear!
Stop b*tching.
Suppose aliens *DID* get the 2 hives up? Ok, then in your mind, ideal tech battle. But suppose aliens get 2 hives *before* marines have teched? Suppose aliens now actually USE TEAMWORK and waste the marines before they can tech?
Just food for thought.
There are minor/major differences between the 2 scenarios of tech disparity, but I think upon further reflection you will find that it is roughly balanced.
Except on pubs <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> where you might have a bad@ss rambo to jetpak but are you going to have an alien team that works together? However I think that any players with brains would follow advice of that bad@ss if he is on alien describing strategies.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and that the commander doesn't drop any healthpacks on his jetpackers.
There are things you can do to hinder a jetpack rush - clan matches have been JP rushes ever since 1.0, and thus anti-JP tactics have evolved ... unfortunately, even if an alien team uses all possible anti-JP strats available right from the start, going JP is still just about the ONLY strategy used in clan matches.
Of course, the NS team is well aware of the JP rush problem - JPs will be both more expensive and have less in-air endurance in 1.1. It's also quite likely that the aliens won't be quite as dependent on their hives as they are now; if it turns out that all aliens lifeforms are available at all times, 1.1 will be much more dependent on resources rather than hives. Lock-down strategies will be less valueable, as lockdowns will simply mean that the aliens will be spending res on evolving fades rather than hives.
This of course begs the question what the marines will need to do to win in 1.1 - the JP rush won't work, hive lockdown won't work... frankly, to me it looks like we'll see a Fade nerf to compensate and allow the marines to live longer even after fades appear...oh well, just speculation.
We'll just have to see.
But there's no reason to give up. One game I played the other day went like this: ns_nothing, maybe 12 on 12, I join the server midgame. The marines have relocated to just outside Cargo Hive (in the crooked hallways) and while they DO have an arms lab and protolab, there are no upgrades yet and the turrets are taking a beating. After a minute or two we get JP, by which time I've noticed that the stretch between our new base and the Marine Start is clear of aliens. I get a JP out of the commander, zoom off through Marine Start and down to Power Silo. After a couple minutes of walking back and forth to clear out the immense webbing in the doorway, I fly in and hide up in the rafters. The comm sees me and drops a phase gate and a turret factory. I should mention that at this point the Aliens are putting up Cargo hive because we simply can't get in there to stop them.
A few helpers come through the phase and we get turrets set up, meanwhile the comm gets us grenade launchers and hmg. Shortly afterward, Silo hive is down, and the aliens are stuck with a half-done second hive and no movement chambers for the moment (conveniently I guess they were all in Powersilo). This is about half an hour after I joined the server, but we've definitely started to come back. Our Silo raiding party phases back to base, and we take out Cargo hive. The aliens retreat to Viaduct and build up massive amounts of Offense and Defense, so it takes us a good half hour before we're in a position to siege the hive itself. Most of the aliens go Lerk, having put up a couple of movements in the minutes Cargo was up. We spend the next half hour trying to hold back 6 Lerks and 5 Skulks right outside their hive while we attempt to build sieges. They manage to wipe out our little outpost about three times, but we finally kill them, nearly 2 hours after I joined the server.
Now, how did the aliens manage to lose, you ask? Simple: A glaring oversight in their defenses. This is the how most games are decided (at least the ones I see), not by questions of balance and cheap tactics. Up until your whole team is dead and the enemy is rampaging through your undefended base, there is ALWAYS a chance of winning. Hell, I managed to bring an alien team back from NO hives and just me still alive against JP/HMG and we won, once. Granted the marine comm was slightly mine-happy, but we still came back.
First, there is the hitboxes. Sure I can demonstrate to the people I play with regularly where to aim, but expecting the public to know the intricacies of working around the hitboxes is a fallacy. And why should any player have to memorize counter-intuitive hit boxes?
On top of that, is Valve's anti-lag horseshit. It's nice that people with analog modems can play, but not at the expense of people with decent connections; I'm not a democrat. I'm not exactly sure what control is given to MOD teams over this aspect of the game. If nothing else, it'd be nice to have interpretation variables locked.
I'm getting sick of bites/shots not registering, and of being shot three or four steps around a corner.
The notion of trying to fine balance a game with so many bug-related uncertainty is absurd. I've not been keeping up with whats happening with 1.1, but I really hope these simple bugs/oversights are fixed.
Left and right, marines started falling out of the sky because of constant parasiting from 5 skulks... (and yes, it does require good aim).
Savant: How could you let the marines relocate to cargo? Its not that hard to hold them back if your team was truly "Coordinated". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You must be kidding me. If those marines had just had one gram of brain they would understand to shoot those parasiting skulks. Skulks without carap = instant death from 5 bullets, with lvl3 carap you would survive an amazing amount of 7 bullets. So how hard can it be?
You try coding something like NS on your own and make it more bug free than the current NS!
And it could be worse some of the RC's crashed servers easilly! (Just ask a PT!)
A problem is that the alien spawn hive is variable. This gives no advantage to the aliens, as the commander can quickly remove uncertainty about the location. But it does, sometimes, give an advantage to marines. For a marine, each hive can be reached in more or less the same time from their start location, on most maps. For aliens it's more variable, for example on eclipse getting from eclipse command to maintenance takes about twice as long as going to computer core. That may mean aliens have to split up their forces to defend both hives, and can be taken down by marines who can take each spot with more or less equal ease.
Related to this is mobility, especially of the skulk. Compare its wall-walking to that of the alien in AvP. There are the obvious differences such as view orientation, how jumping works, field of view,...
Beyond that, however, there is an important difference in how the game is played. The AvP alien is at home on any surface, no matter if it's the floor, the ceiling, or a wall. Transitions are seamless. The skulk is only really comfortable on a floor. On a wall or ceiling the slightest bump is an almost insurmountable barrier. Even walls that might be expected to be easy can turn out to be hard, for example some of the conical sections of the burner in refinery are hard to climb. It may be a coding or a mapping issue, but it hurts the skulks badly (of course, it has been like this all the time). I think that if skulks had a more AvP-like wallwalking ability (even without the bigger view angle or orientation, just the mobility), jetpackers would have much more problems staying alive.
I would agree in situations like the 3 res nodes at cargo, or the double siege point in processing.
However, the relocation aspect of play is something NO mapper can take into account otherwise. It seems to be contradictory to have a 'marine start' that is abandoned for a location that gives the marine team an advantage. How can a mapper account for that? He can't stop them from building anywhere on the map or he would have to stop them from building everywhere on the map.
Imagine if ALIENS could relocate hives!!! Could you imagine how unbalanced that would be if aliens could drop hives anywhere?
The game start locations (hives and CC) are in the game for a REASON. Circumventing those locations can only degrade overall gameplay.
If people want to keep early game CC relocation in, then perhaps we can add in that aliens can drop a hive ANYWHERE as well. That would be fair... right?
Regards,
Savant
They should either make JPs more expensive(like 15 or even 20 rez instead of 9, I mean, comon) or jus nerf its energy recovery rate, but NOT as low as it was in 1.03.
I do believe part of the strat of gorge is place chambers in locations(not just surrounding marine base or guarding hives) that would be advantageous for marines to build a big bad base in.
They should either make JPs more expensive(like 15 or even 20 rez instead of 9, I mean, comon) or jus nerf its energy recovery rate, but NOT as low as it was in 1.03. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1.1 = improved lerk.
And jetpacks will be the counter to the Onos. So i doubt that the lerks will be equal to the jetpacks, but you are right, Lerks just cant fly very long at the moment.
The jetpack fuel recharge should change, certainly, but not just lowered. The fast recharge rate applies only to those with a very high fps. I usually get lower fps, and that makes the pack very hard to use. To land on ledges, timing and control must be very good, because if I miss my landing spot I usually won't have the thrust to correct my approach, and maybe not even enough to prevent smashing into the floor too hard. I can still get to just about any place a lerk, skulk or other jetpacker could, but I can't hover around forever and I can't afford mistakes. It's more like a long distance jumping device for me (remember the end of Half-Life single player, though not quite that bad).
If they weaken the jetpack even more, I'm not sure if I'll even get off the floor <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and a observation on Murphy:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Murphy was a optimist.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thus i can only assume what will go wrong will, in a grevous way. And should anything work, something is wrong. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, FireArms died because of ballance issues. M80 sniper rifle is AV (anti-vehicle) NOT AP! (anti-personel) Machine guns were neutered. Famas and AK series owned. Sub MP5 owned in general. Armor did nothing; more specifically hemlets. Medic and Marks skills were most used; stealth/agility was least used. Crap ballance in that game, and it didn't have buildings or a strategy in general! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> Hence i left it and hence i am here today.
The aliens have huge speed advantages and the marines need to make up for this advantage in anyway. Plus there is the other advantage that the marines have one less area to defend. Jetpacks and phasegates help to counter and balance the speed problem. Medpacks counter the DT collections that alien stick outside the alien base when they attack it.
Its a matter of team cooridination and planning in my opinion.
I rather like balance (broadly speaking) as it stands. We will try not to deviate too far from the current scenario. Costs may be increased/power of said abilities may be reduced, but overall we'll be striving to keep a similar dynamic balance.
Now that the game has been out some time, the players have arrived at a set of strategys that will most effectively win the game for thier team (the whole point of NS). Now these strategies maybe be extremely difficult for the other side to counter which is a matter of balance, which can be changed to improve the ability of a particular side to produce a countermeasure.
So dont call these tactics lame, theyre the result of player ingenuity. Try coming up with a counter to them and if you cannot, suggest ways of improving balance.
This is an amusing article on people who cry "lame"
....http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=26265&st=30&' target='_blank'>thread here</a>
I cannot agree more.