Someone Tell Me

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">why the hell is it so wrong?</div> I command a lot, usually more than I play a marine. I'm good to my troops, well know for success, I emplore several different tactics and I seldom let a game pass without letting the entire team have fun.

That being said, I can't seem to grasp why building a TF and turrets in base is such a horrid sin and instantly gets you called a n00b and most likely ejected. We were playing on bast and I knew from last round (I was an alien and we walked past dozens of packs of mines) that no ammount of mines would stop alines from coming into the base. Also I didn't really feel like building an obs and tech structures over and over again.

So I build a TF and the entire team stopped while ONE of the clannies taht knew me just started building. After that I dropped 3-4 turrets around the base as to cover everything equally and about that time the marines (- caln menber) started whining and screaming n00b even though I commanded to victory 2 3 and 4 rounds ago. then they ejected me. the new comm actually freaking recycled the TF and turrets and dropped mines all the while calling me a n00b and trying to start a kick vote.

As usual a few alines wend on mine runs and openned a hole... then the entire team just walked in and ate the base.....

NSCypher · March 2003

Oh my God, someone else who still uses turrets for base defence!
Turrets rule, dont call someone a n00b just because they use a tf instead of mines. In my experience mines tend to just get placed really beadly and waste res, so I always use turrets.

Remember,

Turret Power <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>

SkinnY · March 2003

i don't get it either... as alien i expct mines to be there so i'm on the lookout for them, and ill jump over them if i see any, but if i hear some "beep beep" sounds i'll think twice before storming the base... i'm more afraid of turrets then mines... mines are overrated... and when i play marine... i trust my comm... as long as he places buildings i'll build / cover the builder... if we lose, to bad but it's only a game...

Sane · March 2003

What idiots, just dont go to that server any more. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Malicious_Dub · March 2003

Cuz if you just sit in base building a turret farm, then you aren't expanding which is way essential seeing as if the aliens get you contained which they will try to do if they are good, once that third hive dropped you are going to need a wicked turret farm and some upgraded tech to stop those onos and that ain't easy to do on one res node. Strategically engaging enemies in your home base is a last resort, unless you're Saddam.

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

I dont remember saying that... could you please point out where I say "I made sure to not expand ever and blantly ignored upgrades while commanding the marines to never attack or even go near a hive" and show me.

NSCypher · March 2003

I'm not suggesting turret <i>farming</i> exactly - that is bad, and wastes tonnes of res. Building 3 to 4 turrets in reasonable locations can be much more effective than mines. Also, turrets last longer than mines against fades (alright not much but they do last longer...) and can be really effective once you get lvl 3 weapons.

Daxx · March 2003

Building a Turret Factory and Turrets in base isn't wrong, however when the game first starts its usually not necessary. You don't have a whole lot of buildings yet, so a few mines is sufficent defence against un-upgraded skulks.

That being said, a new commander drops a TF right at the game start, and 5-6 turrets, thereby wasting all the res. Explain the mine strategy to them, and if they don't get it, and continue to farm, <b>then</b> kick them. But as you said, you tried the mine strat, and the aliens were getting around it, so it is almost <b>required</b> that you change your strat (ie turreting) to counter them.

Sounds to me like your teammates were twits, not you. Oh, and I presume you lost <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

SkinnY · March 2003

turret-farming sux... agreed... but turret defence is good... and they tend to hurt quit abit when they are @ lvl3.... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

I agree. Do you want a LMG on a stick that shoots at aliens and can be upgraded or do you want 10 mines that will get detonated by a gorg/fade and walked around? I build 4 in loactions that would best protect the chair armory and portals including 2 positioned so they could cover entrances and the res.

EDIT: Do you REALLY want to palce trust in some brich that explode IF anythig gets near them, or would you more trust some turrets that actually look for targets to guard your base while you go expand? Can a fade blow up dozens of res worth of turrets all at once?

Oh yea, I forgot that if you see anything that ISNT a textbook JP/HMG rush you must kick the commander for being a n00b and re-elect a commander that has no opinion or ideas of different strats. God, I hate it when those n00b comms have independent thoughts and attempt to have fun winning !

echs · March 2003

Hmm, perhaps at the beginning of the game, it's not wise to defend your base with turrets. Secure at least 1 or 2 hives first then defend them with turrets. Most games I play, the main base is always concerned about last. But then, most pub games just relocate to a hive if the main base gets the slightest bit of trouble. And I thought the main purpose of NS was to listen to your comm...

Malicious_Dub · March 2003

Ok in response to mines not working you can turret in moderation though it probly won't be a great deal more effective then mines vs. good aliens, you can outrun turrets and with only 3 or 4 built there is bound to be places to hide from them.

It's been my experience that when comms turret base it plays out that we dont expand much i apologize for offending you, you are obviously the greatest comm ever and no one should question your ideas.

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (psygnosis @ Mar 27 2003, 09:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hmm, perhaps at the beginning of the game, it's not wise to defend your base with turrets. Secure at least 1 or 2 hives first then defend them with turrets. Most games I play, the main base is always concerned about last. But then, most pub games just relocate to a hive if the main base gets the slightest bit of trouble. And I thought the main purpose of NS was to listen to your comm...  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
No, we don't need a base, its just where we spawn. we can always just drop a chair at a hive while the entire base gets eaten by a few skulks that walked around the red lines... And as far as I'm concerned, If the other team forces you to relocate anywhere for any reason, you've already lost.

Yes, go secure hives before you build real defense... but what is the other team doing while you wander around outside base? they sure the hell dont sit in the original hive and wait for you to tell them to attack. They almoast always go for your base or take the hives themselves. You have to at least try and be realistic and logical in your replys.

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Malicious Dub @ Mar 27 2003, 09:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It's been my experience that when comms turret base it plays out that we dont expand much i apologize for offending you, you are obviously the greatest comm ever and no one should question your ideas. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
SHUT UP YOU! We have no time for ideas and opinions here. Now recycle that armslab so we can get JPs faster.

echs · March 2003

But...Attacking the main base when the marines have 1 or 2 hives is deadly...What's worser for the aliens. Marines spawning in their base and using their PG to get to a hive...Or the marines spawning inside a hive...
TF and a few sentries to defend your base at the start is a waste of resources. It's always best to have 1 marine defend inside of base. But there are many strategies in NS and all of them work if executed correctly. Each person employs their own tactic. You obviously have your own. They probably have their own. I probably have my own :/

killswitch · March 2003

I have yet to see a game where the comm put a TF first thing and we won. Although putting them up later is fine.

1 decent marine and a pack of mines is fine for a base defense.

freeo · March 2003

Turrets are FAR too easy to take down. If you don't have a marine with the turrets, they're almost sure to die--at least when I'm around. Turrets take about 8 bites (off the top of my head) to take down. 19 (x number of turrets) resources down the drain. Then the turret factory is next: 25 resources. Two skulks can easily rip apart a turreted area with no marines around.

IMHO, mines are more cost-effective. And it's true: marines rarely win if they place a turret factory at their main base. As someone else mentioned, it's fine to place turrets at your main base later in the game, but right off the bat, you have better things to do with your resources and time.

That being said, I don't mind if commanders place turrets at the main base immediately. I do whatever the commander tells me to. If they want turrets, so be it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Cowswin · March 2003

If you build a turret fact aliens can expand 3X faster than you, leaving you in the dust. Unless you've got a REALLY good marine team vs. a bad alien team you've just wasted your team. A good marine team will spread out REAL fast and cap every node they can find without putting up any defenses if you go with the turret strat. Then they'll set up in one hive (because aliens usually leave one open) and set up outside the other one and siege. In this strat you usually have to rely on structures more than anything else and you usually have to end up sieging your way through alien defense structures. Most comms, however, neglect to siege and therefore lose...very fast. Once the aliens expand to a certain point, marine sieging will do almost no good anyway. With this strat you expand slower which makes it harder strat to use that's all.

SoBe_Dragon · March 2003

well, building a TF + turretts in the beginning of the game is not cost effective at all. Lets see

20 res for TF
76 res for 4 towers

OR

I can spend 16 or even 24 res for 2-3 packs of mines and have the team place them. You give the mines to people that know where to put them, and the base is just as well defended. Also, another good strat is to let one person be deemed the base defender. No matter where the team goes, he stays in base guarding and laying mines whenever the comm drops some. Dont forget, the comm can also jump out of the chair to lay the smack down, I do it all the time. So technically, you have 2 people guarding base...

Bottom line, TF + turretts in base first is a very newbish move, and not cost effective whatsoever. There are many different ways to defend a base early on without spending 80-90+ res...you just have to be creative and/or have a good shooter on your team...

Frogg2 · March 2003

Go ahead build that TF in base.

Just make sure that i'm on the alien team not the marine team.

Cowswin · March 2003

Unless you're a turret farmer, turrets are largely ineffective early on. There will always be one or two open spots to key structures and that's a waste of 19 res per turret and 20 or so for the fact when they can just run past them. Mine spamming is more effective (unfortunately). 1 mine = 1 kill. 4 turrets won't even confirm you a single kill.

Morrik · March 2003

There's nothing wrong with putting some turrets in your base at the beginning of the game. I have noticed that not many people like to follow what once was when NS first came out and everybody then found out MINES are the best defense for the beginning if the game. This is not true. A well-organized team of aliens can easily break through a MINE defense with coordinated suicides and basically just running around the MINES line of sight for that matter. Turrets have the ability to lock on to any enemy and rip them to shreds. With about four turrets around the TF, that TF isn't going down. There are no RIGHT or WRONG tactics in the game because everytime you try something different, it leads to a much more fun game and everybody can just enjoy themselves. I, for one, am quite tired of playing the same "type" of game over and over with the same tactics over and over. Rather than calling a commander (somebody trying to give people some fun) a n00b, just go along with his/her plan since the commander is the person in charge. Trust within the commander, at least I do. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Frogg2 · March 2003

put the mines on the ground around the structures the aliens wont set them all off at once, also leave 1 marine at base, then the aliens wont be able to just slip past the mines. And even if the base gaurd sucks at aiming the mines should still be able to kill them as they are jumping about.

Diablo_fx · March 2003

I dont use any base defences be we have lots of res i drop a tf in base.

Cowswin · March 2003

I didn't understand a word you said Diablo but anyway, turrets are effective at detering aliens but you can't guard EVERYTHING at one time with 4 turrets when you have to build you IP, your armory and you've got your CC and res node. I remember one game where the marines built turrets and they thought they were alright (it was eclipse so they just built them in a wall set back a bit). We couldn't get through very well so we ate their res node. 3 times. You can't guard everything with them, just too hard. Res for res, I'd still say mines are more effective. Especially on maps there's only two entrances into marine spawn (unlike hives where there's ALWAYS 3 or more.

ATI · March 2003

This is ridiculous, if you are such an ignorant person to say that mines are the only way to go, or that turrets are the only way to go, you shouldn't be commanding anyone. The first thing a commander needs to realize is that multiple options are always better than a single strategy. I think what kittens was saying is rather intelligent, use an adaptive strategy that gives you the base defense you need in the early game, then use more powerful turrets to help defend key positions. In one game I played we had 7 turrets in mess hall. Some people called the comm a newb, but no one ejected him. Lo and behold the 7 turrets in combination with 4 marines held back a fade rush long enough for a strike team to take out the sat comm hive and no-name hive. Is this bad? I don't think so. Turret farming? depends on your idea of what a turret farm really is.

First of all I have yet to see anyone give a definitive number that delineates between turret defense and turret farming. I would assume that turrets in the numbers beyond 8 would be extremely wasteful with resources. However, most of those posting here said that 4 turrets is all you need. Therefore I will make the claim that somewhere between 4-8 turrets is what you need to completely defend an area with turrets before you cross over into turret farming.

Next, it is logical to assume that everymap has very strategic points that are useful to hold as the marines albeit a hive or somewhere like the Mess Hall or Traid generator for Eclipse. Locations that are key for forward offense as well as strategic defense require just that, offense and defense options. Since you can't lay down mines in an offensive posturing (unless mining off a hive which seems not useful) you need to use turrets as a way of utilizing forward deployment and strategic defense. Without turrets you can't take and HOLD a position that is key to a commanders strategy.

Furthermore, I don't mean to diminish the importance of mines. In the beginning of the game mines are useful to place and stop skulks from hitting the base. However, near the middle and end game mines stop using their effectiveness as the skulks evolve into fades or lerks. Since mines wont kill a competent Fade, it is logical to use something that will at least deter a fade. That would be a turret <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'>

Now for rushers I read that you spend valuable resources on turrets instead of advancing the marines. To this I say ****. If your commander is smart he/she has already started working out which res nodes to get, which hives to take and how to secure those points. Knowledgeable commanders don't waste resources on turrets when their marines need more valuable upgrades to attack or defend strategic positions. However, if a commander needs to assemble a strike team that busy occupying a hive the best thing to replace the marines that are guarding is to drop some turrets. By establishing turrets in a strategic position you allow marines that used to be guarding said position to go a capture more resources, another hive, or get another strategic location. Even if the turrets cost lots of money for the quantity you buy turrets in, it is more valuable to ensure a position such as a res node or hive is well defended with turrets, than to simply not defend a position.

In the end remember that this is a game, WHO CARES if the turrets the commander placed cost in excess over 150 res? if it wins the game quit whinning. If it doesn't then the next game opt to be commander and see if your strat works. If it does great, if you strat doesn't work, fine. The important thing is to not be so ignorant as to close of strategic options available to you as a commander. Closing off your options just makes it that much easier for the aliens to win.

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (psygnosis @ Mar 27 2003, 11:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> But there are many strategies in NS and all of them work if executed correctly. Each person employs their own tactic. You obviously have your own. They probably have their own. I probably have my own :/  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
By saying this you win... by default you just win.

And to answer another... Sure, go place your mines in some kind of stratigical position or in a grid... I make it a hobby of doing 20-30 suicide runs every game to clear the path to whatever may be behind those mines... your base, RT, PG, candy. And after I make a hole, I look up and to the side and see all the mines that I didnt need to hit and walk around them. What, its not like mines shoot back at you.

Some guy ||-------- Commander Kittens
Random d00d ||-------- Commander Kittens
Cheddarcheese ||-------- Commander Kittens
Waste of res ||-------- Commander Kittens

(those are suicide runs)

Butt_monkey_salad · March 2003

Well think of it this way:

to protect main base, a tf and at least 3 or 4 turrets are required, thats a dreaded 77-96 rez!! Another problem is that they dont necessarily kill skulks most of the time due to their speed but only discourage them from trying to eat up structures

But it takes about...lets see...maybe 5-10 packs of mines to make the equivilent(actually better since they usually kill skulks instantly) of a TF + 3 turrets and thats like a total of only 40-80 rez, u c wat I mean?

Of course thats a different story if its mid or late game (fades cause a chain reaction to mines w/ rocket)

Basically, mine your base early game and IF u got da easy rez, build TF and turrets at main base mid-to-late game in order to delay(NOT stop) them dang fades

Commander_Kittens · March 2003

Just everythign that ATI said... yea.

For the sake of argument lets throw donw some numbers.

1 turret can shoot an uncountable ammount of bulets for ever
can kill an also uncountalbe number of alines stupid enough to go near them
can cost aliens a lot of pain and time taking down
fades... at least 2 full bars of energy to get one turret
linked to TF which is defenseless on its own

1 mine can go off only once
can kill ONLY things that get close enough to it for it to explode
can be walked over by an unupgraded skulk and forgotten about... or any upgraded alien and be forgotten
fades... the mere presense of fades nulls mines. Infact once a fade is near mines can become weapons AGAINST MARINES
not linked to anything but requires target to get REALLY close

TenSix · March 2003

I like it when the Comm drops 2 packs of mines, then after we secure some nodes and a hive puts up base defenses. I can't tell you how many times I've screamed for mines, only to have the comm curse me out. 30 Seconds later 10 skulks rip apart our base (half of which would have been killed by mines, and a least several by base guards, leaving one or two easily dispatched).

Oddly enough, the comm that drops mines, usually wins the game <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Kaniran · March 2003

There are MANY strats that work. Turrets work. Mines work. Relocation works. Having NO base defences except the com and one good shot can work! All this depends on HOW THE TEAM WORKS!!

Spending 150 - 200 res on turrets won't hurt a good team that is securing nodes quickly. Mines work against some alien teams. Sometimes the com is a good enough shot to hold off a 4 skulk rush alone.

Jetpack rush won't always work. Mine rush won't always work. Tech rush won't always work. Securing 2 hives with phases WON'T ALWAYS WORK. A full team of 8 upgraded heavies won't always work. Get the picture?

If any strategies ALWAYS worked, you wouldn't see anything else, would you? In the game Kittens commanded, he had played against the team before, so he KNEW what wouldn't work this time, and employed a different strat. Good for him. If his team had trusted him, they might have won.

I guess some of the people here have never seen a skulk weave through all the mines at your base and eat your obs just to spite you. Sometimes they'll eat your base guard and your IP too. Some skulks are actually just that good. If you think you have the perfect strat worked out, try it on more servers. Believe me, it WILL fail eventually.

Someone Tell Me

Comments