"it's Not Balance, It's A Map Flaw"

Savant · March 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Then lets FIX them</div> OK, often when people discuss balance issues, some people blame the map as being 'flawed' for the balance issue. So instead of doing this, I'd be interested to hear about ALL of the potential areas on maps that people feel are 'flaws' in some way. While this is more for 'official' maps, feel free to comment on any map.

I'd also appreciate if people would reply with the following:

-Name of map
-Area of map that has 'flaw'
-Why you see it is a flaw
-Suggestion to fix flaw

<b>Bast</b>
Atmospheric Processing
Double resource nodes
Eliminate one of the nodes

<b>Bast</b>
Engine room hive
Can be sieged with a TF located in marine start
Shift engine room further away from marine start

<b>Bast</b>
Databank access resource node
Too many resource nodes in one area
Move it further away from the hive

<b>Caged</b>
Generator hive (and Sewer hive to a lesser extent)
Resource nodes are too far away from hive
Relocate nodes a bit close to hives

(skipping Eclipse since the official map is being reworked)

<b>Hera</b>
Processing
Two hives can be sieged with one turret factory
Move hives so they are in the same rooms but farthest away from processing. (IE, move Vent hive closer to upper hallway, and move Data Core hive to OPPOSITE wall near back door entrance) Also move resource node OUT of processing area and into the area behind the node. (also considered processing)

<b>Hera</b>
Holoroom
Double resource node
Eliminate one of the nodes

<b>Hera</b>
Archiving hive
No resource node in the immediate area
Add a resource node in Archiving hive

<b>Nancy</b>
No name hive
Give the poor hive a name!
Generator hive perhaps?

<b>Nancy</b>
Port engine hive
Hive can be shot from vent
Change vent so hive cannot be hit unless you exit vent

<b>Nancy</b>
Marine Start
Area should have TWO exits and is very cramped
Rework marine start so it has an extra entrance and is not as cramped

<b>Nothing</b>
CARGO BAY!
Too many resource nodes in one area
Eliminate 2 of the 3 resource nodes in Cargo Bay

<b>Nothing</b>
Cargo to Viaduct vent
Vent is too easy to camp
Change vent so only skulks (or boosted aliens/marines) can access it

<b>Tanith</b>
Reactor Room
Double resource node
Eliminate one of the nodes

<b>Tanith</b>
Waste Handling hive
ALL vents can be welded
Change it so that only one of the two vents can be welded, so aliens have a chance to retake

I'd prefer if people didn't comment on these and instead posted their own, if possible I'd like this to be less of a debate and more of a poll.

Regards,

Savant

Insane · March 2003

"Double Resource" node is not a flaw. They were placed there deliberately, and are meant to be tactically advantageous areas that the two teams must fight to gain control over. A team can still win if it does not have a double node, anyway.

The same thing basically applies to the nodes around Cargo in ns_nothing.

boberto · March 2003

i agree with most of these, i feel quite strongly about caged as well... nodes need to be closer to hives so they can be defended properly.

edit: i don't really agree with the criticism of double resource nodes either, they just create key points on the map that need to be held. as long as they are in a central location where they can be taken by either side, then theyre fine.

G_I_Joehosaphat · March 2003

Double resource nodes are great, in some ways. But some maps have them too close to one hive and far away from other hives, thus if the Aliens do not start CLOSE to that double resource spot, they sufffer a greater chance of not capturing it. If there are double resource nodes, they should be balanced in the center of the map somewhere and roughly equideistant from each hive and Marine start.

I also agree with most of your points btw. Its a good post and a good start.

cybrangl · March 2003

Double nodes are fine as long as both groups can use them. In hera, MArines must do a dance and pray to the chicken gods to get the second nozzle (not impossible, but you do need to know the "trick")

I agree with the siege locations, and I am inclinded not to disagree with the re nozzles being too far from the hives. Personally, I think it makes it harder for the marines to relocate, and doesn't hurt aliens too much.. so not really a problem imho, but I'm not going to argue either.

In Nancy, being able to shoot unmolested from vent to hive is annoying. That has to go. Too easily abused.

Nancy: Unused hallway with borken door in Subspace. Marines build phase/Siege behind it.

Bast: Empty area near feedwater with fire. Marines build in this area through wall (not sure if this needs to be removed because I have never seen a team who uses this win <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> )

Frogg2 · March 2003

Shooting from a vent isn't really a problem lerk spikes will kill them so fast.

Cowswin · March 2003

Double res nodes aren't a flaw. I tend to find that they seem to be nice to get and use, but very hard to defend. They're usually in high traffic areas and are largely open from multiple access routes. It's usually not worth setting up the nodes there, just holding the spot as a key control point.

babygirl · March 2003

Double res spots must go, unless they're in a neutral location. Atmospheric is way to close to the marine start on bast. Cargo Room is the bane of all alien players - if they start in anywhere other than cargo, they know the marines won't stop trying to take it until the game is over, one way or the other.

nothing · March 2003

Should this maybe be in the suggestions forum? Anyway...

Your list seems pretty good, except for your "too many resource node" complaints. The only one I agree with is Cargo Hive on Nothing. Three nodes should not be covered by one TF, imo.

<b>Bast</b>
Welded vents are broken by gorge spit.
Change the welds to unbreakable? since this seems to be an error with gorge spit tunnelling / breakable welds, and it's only a problem on this map

<b>Bast</b>
Feedwater Hive
That little pocket/ledge above the hive
It's very difficult to take out a jetpack marine once he's in there.
Eliminate the pocket/ledge area above the hive.

<b>Nancy</b>
NoName Hive
If you have an issue with hives being shot from vents, NoName is even worse than Port Engine...

TenSix · March 2003

I don't really like double reasource nodes, for a few reasons:

-A team can, from one location, get as much res as the other team gets from 2 different locations.
-Usually very easy to defend (thats the major problem).

But back on topic:

<b>Nothing</b>
-The team that holds cargo has an unfair advantage, especially Marines (Base node + Docking Wing + Cargo = 5 nodes in a few minutes).
-Generator is VERY hard to take back when your an Alien, the elevator is a deathtrap.
-Too many elevators, a smart gorge will block all except Generator. Meaning you have to spend time to build siege.
-Viaduct is too large for its own good, I like it, but its nigh impossible to nail a Jetpacker in there. The cieling needs to be lowered or cut at an angle to make Jetpack laming harder.
-Powersilo, the ledges near the cieling result in some people Leaping up to them then going Fade or if your a Marine with a JP, putting up a Phase gate and siege.

<b>Tanith</b>
-You can get stuck in the water as an Onos. Give us some ramps to get outta there please.
-Reactor is about 5 seconds walk from the Marine base, and about 10 seconds from the closest hive. Take out 1 node so it will encourage Marines to be more aggressive.
-Reactor is very wide open, and close to the Marine base, hard to take from Marines/Turrets.
-Sat Comm hive is shootable from far back in the vent.

<b>Nancy</b>
-Chokepoints are too....choked. Very easy to keep Marines holed up in their base by fortifying Aux Gen and Mess Hall.
-Marine base is very very very small.
-Satellite Array hive only has 1 entrance essentially (the vent entrance is a frikin maze), very hard to take back or escape from.

------

Other then that, you listed pretty much every complaint I have as well <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> I love NS's maps, some of the best I've seen. Im hoping now that the mappers have had their maps playtested by thousands of people, they can fix the problems that werent there in NS's early stages.

Savant · March 2003

Some good comments here folks! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> Yeah I forgot about no-name attack from the vents.

As for double res nodes, I don't think they add anything to the game. If anything they create a distraction from the game. Why have both teams fighting over reactor room and then accepting a loss when they lose it? The battle should be over HIVES. Especially since Flayra seems to be trying to shorten games. Long fought out battles for a res node position only encourage people to dig in when they should be pushing forward.

The way I see it, people do JUST FINE on maps with no double res nodes, so I don't see how there would be any loss by eliminating them.

Regards,

Savant

Ollj · March 2003

Some maps get 1.1 versions with most "flaw" fixed and MUCH MORE features.

You should know that the maps were created without any knowledge of real pulic gameplay experience.
The game itself changed serveral times while the map grows.
The maps were created with real early versions of the ns.fgd and not with as optimized compile tools as today (caused many sticky and stucking places).
The maps were created under time-pressure. and most releases have some places to improve much.

If NS Nothing would not get an updated 1.1 version i would like to see it getting out of the official circle for 3 simple reasons:
Cargo , Cargo and Cargo.
thank good he announched nothing1.1 .

Redford · March 2003

Double rescource nodes are NOT map flaws.

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The battle should be over HIVES. Especially since Flayra seems to be trying to shorten games. Long fought out battles for a res node position only encourage people to dig in when they should be pushing forward.

The way I see it, people do JUST FINE on maps with no double res nodes, so I don't see how there would be any loss by eliminating them.

Regards,

Savant </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
wrong...just wrong. The battle should be over hives *AND* res nodes. Ever played an RTS? I guess not. RTS are almost always about denying the opponent's expansions (grabs for more resources) and/or pressuring their tech tree (attacking their base and forcing them to waste resources defending, thereby slowing down their upgrades and giving you time to upgrade yourself).

As to your second point: yes, but who are you to tell the mappers what they should and shouldn't do? Under the most precisely controlled conditions, the mapper will do damn well what s/he pleases - and if Flay decides to support the maps, then you're SOL. I'm seriously tired of this crap about how you think the game should be played - <b>it's not your game</b>. You want it to be played in a different style, go create your own mod/plugin. Or run your own server with the map out of the rotation. Geeze.

Immacolata · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (G.I.Joehosaphat @ Mar 27 2003, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If there are double resource nodes, they should be balanced in the center of the map somewhere and roughly equideistant from each hive and Marine start.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Aliens run faster than marines, so res room should be equidistant from all hives, but a bit closer overall to marine spawn if you want to look at it that way.

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Mar 27 2003, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (G.I.Joehosaphat @ Mar 27 2003, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If there are double resource nodes, they should be balanced in the center of the map somewhere and roughly equideistant from each hive and Marine start. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Aliens run faster than marines, so res room should be equidistant from all hives, but a bit closer overall to marine spawn if you want to look at it that way.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
But marines spawn faster and can relocate <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

ElvenThief · March 2003

How about, instead of spending time in a committee discussing the different "flaws" in a map we do something even better?
UPDATE OUR STRATEGY
Good day.

//Edit:
No name hive on nancy: Mother Hive. The name was supposedly official and got around in the forums earlier.

mRWaffles · March 2003

All complaining should be done after 1.1. Why? Because for example some maps have a problem with height positions and such which give marines an advantage, however a lerk might be easier to come by in 1.1, thus someone can go lerk to shoot marines out of a vent without hurting the delicate alien economy.

Savant · March 2003

Hey Wheee, please don't impose your opinion on me. If I have an opinon, then I could care less what you think. Your argumentative posts have long since removed any creditbilility you might have had in my eyes. Why you bother replying to my posts in beyond me. Go harass someone else. You're wasting your time with me.

Regards,

Savant

Insane · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 10:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hey Wheee, please don't impose your opinion on me. If I have an opinon, then I could care less what you think. Your argumentative posts have long since removed any creditbilility you might have had in my eyes. Why you bother replying to my posts in beyond me. Go harass someone else. You're wasting your time with me.
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's a very big-headed way to go through life. "You can have my opinion, but don't even <i>think</i> of letting me have yours". Wonderful. I like you already.

Infected_Marine · March 2003

I think the terms "flaw" and "something I don't like so I will whine about it" have became pretty interchangable in this thread. Only things like double siege locations are balance problems, and the only "flaws" that should be "fixed" are things like the platform without a top texture in CC (of Eclipse) and places where it is possible to go outside the map (or at least build outside it).

The lack of understanding balance issues displayed in this thread really shocked me. The people who complained should really try and learn the way the maps are meant (or should) be played, not complain about them.

Coyote399 · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (E-Th33ph @ Mar 27 2003, 04:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> //Edit:
No name hive on nancy: Mother Hive. The name was supposedly official and got around in the forums earlier.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
i have a problem with that, its easily confused with mother interface array

i also have lesser problem with reactor room and fusion reactor

civman2 · March 2003

Officially call it the noname hive and everyone will be happy <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

a_M-Taker · March 2003

To: Savant

yeah lets name the hive in nacy..... lets see..... how about noname hive...... because if you name it something else it will never be the same and most likely most of the people will still refer it to the noname hive.

so.... i really dont see in changeing it, maybe adding the name up by the hive could help some but calling it the noname hive is what its originally refered so please dont chnage it.

Oh and about the cramped rooms, err i dont see a problem... do you think in real life you would have a chance to change the room just because of its size.... EVEN though this is nowhere near real life.

Now for tanith, there is not 2 res nodes in the fusion hive.... what the hell?? theres a res node in the cargo area and theres one in the fusion hive. Now if your talking about the fusion hive area, your still wrong... theres accually 3 res nodes easily accessed by the hive, if you count the one coming from the sattalite communication hive.

Also i see no problem with double res nodes i doubt it hurting the game at all, it just makes the area a good kind of stand off area.

These are just my opinions and i have thought these through and this is just what i have to say with what you posted, so dont get mad at me cause it wont really do to much good cause i wont care.

-a.M-Taker

Rion · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (G.I.Joehosaphat @ Mar 27 2003, 01:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Double resource nodes are great, in some ways. But some maps have them too close to one hive and far away from other hives, thus if the Aliens do not start CLOSE to that double resource spot, they sufffer a greater chance of not capturing it. If there are double resource nodes, they should be balanced in the center of the map somewhere and roughly equideistant from each hive and Marine start.

I also agree with most of your points btw. Its a good post and a good start.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
If you're alien on Bast and start in the engine room hive, chances are you'll have a hard time defending it.. and it's not exactly a high traffic area then.

Savant · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Mar 27 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>That's a very big-headed way to go through life. "You can have my opinion, but don't even <i>think</i> of letting me have yours". </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No not with everyone, just him. He has this nasty habit of attacking every one of my posts without adding anything constructive.

I have NO objection to a person having a different opinion, and I respect that. I draw the line at personal attacks though. Once that person has personally attacked me for having a certain opinion, then they lose any credibility they may have had in my eyes and I ignore their posts.

Sorry, but people like that are a waste of my time.

Regards,

Savant

pdub · March 2003

flaws are what make life interesting.

double nodes rule.

fix cargo and processing.

even that is saying too much about this topic considering how much will change in 1.1

-pdub

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 05:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Hey Wheee, please don't impose your opinion on me. If I have an opinon, then I could care less what you think. Your argumentative posts have long since removed any creditbilility you might have had in my eyes. Why you bother replying to my posts in beyond me. Go harass someone else. You're wasting your time with me.

Regards,

Savant </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>No not with everyone, just him. He has this nasty habit of attacking every one of my posts without adding anything constructive.

I have NO objection to a person having a different opinion, and I respect that. I draw the line at personal attacks though. Once that person has personally attacked me for having a certain opinion, then they lose any credibility they may have had in my eyes and I ignore their posts.

Sorry, but people like that are a waste of my time.

Regards,

Savant </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

There's a good reason for me taking issue with your posts. Your whole attitude reeks of 'I'm right and you're wrong, things should be done my way blah blah blah OMG U N00B U DONT AGREE WITH ME'

I agree with you on many of your points. But I take serious issue with how you present them. And since when have I ever *imposed my opinion* on you? I was stating a fact - the game is not your game, it's Flayra's - and that means that any time you say <b>this is how it should be</b> without directly having confidence that this is what Flayra has in mind, <b>then you are wrong</b>. Let me be clear on that.

The thing is, I would not have said anything if this was the only time you've taken a haughty attitude when posting - I would have overlooked it. In fact, I lurked on the forums a long time before I started posting, and even back then it was the same thing. When you started arguing with TeoH, who has my respect and rightfully so, the way you worded your replies really **** me off.

Now, excuse me if I've offended you, because that is just the way I feel. Your manner of posting turns me completely off, even if the ideas and reasoning are sound, and when the reasoning isn't good it just makes me dislike the post worse.

Forgive me for taking up your valuable time,

Wheeee

P.S. I will try to stop 'flaming' your posts.

*edit* I also apologize to fellow forum-goers who have to read this kind of stuff *edit*

Bogglesteinsky · March 2003

guys...

can you please move your interesting discussion to your own private messages please.

thankyou.

Savant · March 2003

Actually, personal attacks are against forum policy, so I've reported his most recent post and will leave the matter in their capable hands. Perhaps the fact that they will be 'watching' him for further attacks will spare other forum goers from this kind of babble.

Instead of apologising to other forum goers for posting that tripe, perhaps he would refrain from posting it in the first place and save us all the trouble of reading it.

In any case, as I mentioned, I have no intention of dragging the matter on. I'll let the mods take care of his future attacks.

Regards,

Savant

Wheeee · March 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 27 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually, personal attacks are against forum policy, so I've reported his most recent post and will leave the matter in their capable hands. Perhaps the fact that they will be 'watching' him for further attacks will spare other forum goers from this kind of babble.

Instead of apologising to other forum goers for posting that tripe, perhaps he would refrain from posting it in the first place and save us all the trouble of reading it.

In any case, as I mentioned, I have no intention of dragging the matter on. I'll let the mods take care of his future attacks.

Regards,

Savant </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

hmm. Anyway, back on topic: Map flaws. I was just going to ask if the mappers were going to resubmit their maps using XP-Cagey's unstuck tool...or if the dev team made one of their own.

"it's Not Balance, It's A Map Flaw"

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