Is Ns Balanced?
CplDavis
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
I hunt the arctic Snonos Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12097Members
<div class="IPBDescription">It depends on where u play</div> It would seem that it has become basic knowledge that NS is pretty much balanced now or is on the way in the upcoming v1.1.
With this in mind it has also become well known that the Marines have a higher win ratio in private servers and clan matches. On the contrary it would seem that the aliens have a higher win ratio on the standard public servers. Because of this there are countless posts with the "Marines/aliens never win" theme.
The usual responses are either A. You are a noob stop crying and get some skill. or B. Go to a Clan/Private server.
Well, with expirience with both servers I can attest to myself that playing against serious clanners or private servers where there are more team oriented players, the marines win a lot more.
So I guess what Im trying to ask is. What exactly is the ratio of these "clan/private" servers to the public ones. Obvisouly everyone cannot play on these, or else there would be no difference. Other posts and the responses also talk about the flailing and weak clan base in NS thus pushing another private server restriction limit facotr into play. This and the fact that I would say there are always more public servers then private ones, caueses a problem. Correct me if Im wrong but there are far more public casual "joe schmoe" players out there then clanners and private server players. There always have and there will always be.
Now I firmly belive that NS today is more of a game of teamwork, organization, and tacticle stratedgy then a run around shoot 'em up deathmatch. Once again I also belive NS is pretty well balanced. The only problem is that it only IS or PERCEIVED to be balenced by the smaller population of clanners/private players. As proven time and time again the majority regular player base sees it differently. X Side never wins bla bla bla.
When play testing occures im assuming that when Flayra and the regular bunch of Playtesters play, they are probably doing so in a way that most likely demonstrates a lot more knowledge, understanding and teamwork then does the standard public server. And so they are measuring and basing their conclusions on their expiriences. I am no way saying this is wrong. NS is a game ment for and designed around around teamwork and cooridination, especialy for the marines. I surely do not want to see NS "dumbed down".
Unfortunatly this problably means that for the larger more "unorganized" majority of public players, they are never going to think this game is balanced, fair etc. So I sure hope Flayra keeps this in mind and doesnt end up trying to reinvent the wheel trying to tweak, tweak tweak everything in the future. Its gonna be an uphill battle all way when trying to accomplish the impossible task of satisfing everyone. Flayra has stated that he wants to see a stronger clan base in the future. He said he wants to design a game better to that purpose. This can only mean certain doom and a lot of NS flamming in the future from a lot of pub players lol.
By the way. I am fully aware that there are many awsome public players out there that do in deed give the marines/aliens hell in the servers. Im basing this post off of the numerous comments Ive read in other servers and my own playing expriences.
With this in mind it has also become well known that the Marines have a higher win ratio in private servers and clan matches. On the contrary it would seem that the aliens have a higher win ratio on the standard public servers. Because of this there are countless posts with the "Marines/aliens never win" theme.
The usual responses are either A. You are a noob stop crying and get some skill. or B. Go to a Clan/Private server.
Well, with expirience with both servers I can attest to myself that playing against serious clanners or private servers where there are more team oriented players, the marines win a lot more.
So I guess what Im trying to ask is. What exactly is the ratio of these "clan/private" servers to the public ones. Obvisouly everyone cannot play on these, or else there would be no difference. Other posts and the responses also talk about the flailing and weak clan base in NS thus pushing another private server restriction limit facotr into play. This and the fact that I would say there are always more public servers then private ones, caueses a problem. Correct me if Im wrong but there are far more public casual "joe schmoe" players out there then clanners and private server players. There always have and there will always be.
Now I firmly belive that NS today is more of a game of teamwork, organization, and tacticle stratedgy then a run around shoot 'em up deathmatch. Once again I also belive NS is pretty well balanced. The only problem is that it only IS or PERCEIVED to be balenced by the smaller population of clanners/private players. As proven time and time again the majority regular player base sees it differently. X Side never wins bla bla bla.
When play testing occures im assuming that when Flayra and the regular bunch of Playtesters play, they are probably doing so in a way that most likely demonstrates a lot more knowledge, understanding and teamwork then does the standard public server. And so they are measuring and basing their conclusions on their expiriences. I am no way saying this is wrong. NS is a game ment for and designed around around teamwork and cooridination, especialy for the marines. I surely do not want to see NS "dumbed down".
Unfortunatly this problably means that for the larger more "unorganized" majority of public players, they are never going to think this game is balanced, fair etc. So I sure hope Flayra keeps this in mind and doesnt end up trying to reinvent the wheel trying to tweak, tweak tweak everything in the future. Its gonna be an uphill battle all way when trying to accomplish the impossible task of satisfing everyone. Flayra has stated that he wants to see a stronger clan base in the future. He said he wants to design a game better to that purpose. This can only mean certain doom and a lot of NS flamming in the future from a lot of pub players lol.
By the way. I am fully aware that there are many awsome public players out there that do in deed give the marines/aliens hell in the servers. Im basing this post off of the numerous comments Ive read in other servers and my own playing expriences.
Comments
back on topic...
As for regular public play, the winning team is (almost) always the one with the best players. The best games I have ever played had server regs on both sides, and Both sides had a leader.
When the teams are balanced in terms of skill, NS is like heroin.
When the teams are balanced in terms of skill, NS is like heroin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[QUOTE]
I completely agree on point that side with best players win and balanced games are like heroin.
Anyway the reason why marines seem to loose a LOT on public games is simple:
<ul>
<li>Beginners are encouraged to join marine team.
<li>Teamplay is more important in marine team
<li>Soloing "Rambo" characters want big guns and join to marines.
</ul>
Even with these drawbacks a marine team can win with good commander and one or two good marine players <b>IF</b> aliens have unskilled players as well.
Most funny kills and insane actions by players are on public servers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
One skulk can kill 5 marines when marines start to panic and shoot each others.
newbie <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> --> dead marine
I completely agree on point that side with best players win and balanced games are like heroin.
Anyway the reason why marines seem to loose a LOT on public games is simple:
<ul>
<li>Beginners are encouraged to join marine team.
<li>Teamplay is more important in marine team
<li>Soloing "Rambo" characters want big guns and join to marines.
</ul>
Even with these drawbacks a marine team can win with good commander and one or two good marine players <b>IF</b> aliens have unskilled players as well.
Most funny kills and insane actions by players are on public servers. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
One skulk can kill 5 marines when marines start to panic and shoot each others.
newbie <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> --> dead marine<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I completely agree about everything you have said in this, too bad I never said it earlier <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, I'm losing interest in comming. I hate my orders not being obeyed. I'm not an overbearing tyrant, but when I ask people to stay at X while we secure it, I have a damn good reason. If they don't follow orders I have a rough time doing anything useful, and spend alot of time spinning my wheels. In short, I'm all but useless. I become a med/ammo/equip vendor or I jump outta the chair. Basically, I'm sick of being ineffective because of my teammates.
Kharaa on the other hand... as a gorge I can do as I damn-well please. I'd like an escort to some places occasionally, but that's not too difficult to get, or essential. If I want a res, I don't have to wait for some idiot skulk to come to res point, I just build the damn thing. I want D? We get D. No lamers stuffing me up at every turn by not following orders.
As a non-gorge it's still ok. I need to rely on the gorge to get upgrades and hives, but the gorge generally knows enough about what they are doing. We might not get D at the time I'd like, but we get it eventually. Mabye the hive is late, but it isn't going to hurt us all that much. And... best of all: if I wanna lerk, I lerk. If I wanna fade, I fade. Simple. No waiting for the gorge to give me an evolution so to speak, it's all just an R-click away.
So... I go alien now, and since I'm pretty good... well, marines are losing alot more often when they aren't clan-stacked (not saying I'm that good, just that it was roughly balanced before, now it's not). So, yeah... marines are "teh suk" in pub games usually, so many experienced players go kharaa 'cause it gives you the freedom to get your freak on anyway you like it, and with no lamers pulling you down.
So... I think it comes back to the "learning curve" issue. Like it or not, aliens have a much higher one. It just doesn't show up in pub games.
Nowadays I only hang out on clan servers. So, for the most part my n00b problems are rare and far in between.
In any 1.04 game where neither side significantly pressures the other, the advantage will tend to the alien team as the match draws on.
If both teams sit on their **** and continue along their regular tech path for an indefinate period of time, marines will lose.
Now, what is the most common playing style you will see in any RTS played by inexperienced players? They will sit back in their base and carry along their regular tech path. RTS games have a 'novel toy' factor, where new abilities/units are opened up as the game drags on. To new players, these are shiny toys that they have had little chance to use yet. It is natural for people to want to play around with all the little gizmos that the game offers, this characteristic even carries through to players who have had a decent amount of experience at the game. You can see this in every game where marines refuse to kill an alien team before they have researched every ability available, or where people on the alien team inform you not to kill those IPs on the skulk rush, because they want to play with spore cloud. Some people even frown upon any sort of strategy that ends the game before tier 3 tech.
The marine team in 1.04 requires you to use early pressure, it requires you to end the game or cripple the alien team before they become too powerful. This style of gameplay clashes completely with how your average pub player would like to play the game. They want their toys, and they dislike the idea of actually attacking or finishing the game early. You may remember in the early days of NS, or even now with new players, that people will always choose to heavily defend their base rather than heavily attack their opponent's. ie. TF + turrets in the marine start. This trait of trying to turtle yourself in to extend the game can be seen among new players of every RTS game. From Warcraft to C&C, new players will spend excessive amounts of money on base defence, and make little attempt at attacking the opponent. Why do they do this? It's because they want to play with their toys. They don't want to fight with their opponent because this might result in the game ending before they have Onos.
The JP/HMG rush was the first popular strategy to filter through to public servers that actually involved ending the game 'early'. Prior to this, public server marine commanders have always adopted strategies that would extend the game in any way possible. First it was the TF in the marine start. Then people learned a better way to extend the game was to hold 2 hives. When people play 1.04 with this attitude, aliens are going to win. Marines winning a high percentage of pub games will happen when/where marines realise that they should be trying to end the game early. Try some rushes, you may be pleasantly surprised.
It's not so much waiting for the toys, but extending the fun. And being gentlemanly really, one day we did 6 rushes in a row because nobody wanted to comm, eventually someone stepped up and said "fine, but we'll make it quick". We did 2 shotty rushes, one mine rush and and 3 lmg rushes. We won all 6 and it was fun, but the kharaa players sure didn't sound impressed. I've been on the receiving end of rushes too... it's not fun, not fun at all.
I think we will continue to see people avoiding rushed by and large until we have a system where a rush doesn't win you the game, and doesn't lose you the game. If you can rush and hurt your opponent without killing them, and a loss wouldn't totally cripple you, you'd see it more often. We'd see tense fighting from the beginning 'til the end.
Very insightful. I agree with most everything you wrote. I play on pubs most of the time but I try to hang out on servers with lots of cool regulars. Sometimes it makes for some awesome games.
I think another problem with NS on pubs is that it is pretty darn complicated. Most people have trouble really understanding the tactics that are neccessary to secure a win. Most of the other halflife mods are much simpler in comparison, but people like that simplicity. The CS map Dust is so popular becuase it's easy to understand and play without too much learning.
I think the marines will have it tough even in 1.1 on pubs unless they change something to encourage teamwork and agressiveness. It is much easier to balance clan play because the players will all be at a high skill level. The game is all about map control and agression (like most RTS games), and that will never change.
One idea that just popped into my mind was something like the team bonus in Frontline Force where you got a health regen when you were near a team member. I always thought that was cool. There must be some creative ways to solve this problem.
aiit
unupgraded marines > unupgraded skulks (1hive)
lvl 3 cara skulks (1hive) > unupgraded marines
upgraded marines > lvl 3 cara skulks (1hive)
Fade + Lerk(umbra) + Gorge(webs+heal) > upgraded marines
most pub commanders dont:
A) get upgrades
B) attack aliens hive
thus aliens win more often on pubs and marines win more often in clan scrims/matches
nm that wasnt as simple as I wanted it to be...
I think even with 1.1 this could still be a problem becuase the basic game mechanics will still be the same. But of course who knows? Have to use the forums for something...
I think even with 1.1 this could still be a problem becuase the basic game mechanics will still be the same. But of course who knows? Have to use the forums for something... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i would have to agree with badkarma on this one dude. Definitly pointless being as A) this has been discussed over and over, and b) its changing
You are confused here. Nobody here should even try to compare public play to clan play. They are two entirely different ideas.
Public play is a bit like shooting hoops in the driveway with your friends. You're just hanging out and having some fun.
Clan play is like playing in the NCAA tournament. You're there to win, not to hang out with your buddies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been on the receiving end of rushes too... it's not fun, not fun at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, Marquette wasn't to happy about the whooping they received either. Maybe cause its not fun to lose?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think we will continue to see people avoiding rushed by and large until we have a system where a rush doesn't win you the game, and doesn't lose you the game. If you can rush and hurt your opponent without killing them, and a loss wouldn't totally cripple you, you'd see it more often. We'd see tense fighting from the beginning 'til the end. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are you talking about? If anything, we'll see more rushing. Asking expert players not to rush is ridiculous.
Do you think Barry Bonds would take it very seriously if Lance Berkman, the Houston Astros Left Fielder, approached him before game, and asked him not to hit for the fences? Instead, Barry should try to hit a few fly balls to Berkman, and maybe try to convince a few of the other Giants not to score any runs, so the game can be extended into extra innings?
Hah, that scenario is of course ridiculous.
Perhaps I should have specified that, but I thought it was obvious.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, Marquette wasn't to happy about the whooping they received either. Maybe cause its not fun to lose?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mind losing in a pub game, its losing within a few minates because the marines rushed you that gets me annoyed. It's just no fun. What could have been a 30min+ game with back and forth and fighting over key areas has now been decided by a group of marines running to your hive, shooting as they go. Oooh, fun. That's CS with aliens and marines, except without all the stuff that makes such a game fun. NS has a style that just isn't explored in a game that spans a few minutes.
In a competitive game? Meh, whatever. Don't break the rules and I don't care how you win. If the game is inbalanced then I wont play it competitively. If it is balanced, then obviously it was my fault for losing so damn quick.
EDIT: And I wasn't saying that people <i>shouldn't</i> rush even in a pub game, I was saying people <i>don't</i> rush (they do, but not as often as they could) because it gets boring and repeditive for both sides. I'm not scrub critical, I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game by my rules. I'm telling it as I see it, and I see people not rushing in pub games 'cause it just aint fun, that is all.
as long as you enjoy yourself who flippin cares
I have made the decision not to finish of a rush just because it would end the fun to early. This is offcourse only in pub games but still.
It´s usually when we actually make a good skulk rush and eat the whole marine team and the only got one IP up. I take a few good bites out off the IP and run off. Why? Well. A good rush sets the marines back a lot, so we still have a really good chance of winning. And winning is more fun if the battle is longer. Hence, not eating the last IP.
Recently I have found myself not taking part of the gamestart rush at all. Marines rush too, but usually not to a your hive but a key location(including other hives). So I just camp those locations in an attempt to prevent lockdowns. Lockdowns do provide longer games but sometimes they just get to boring.
Essentially I just do what I do to improve my odds of enjoying the game as much as I can.
Winning.. But not effortless winning.
In clanplay however, this is offcourse unheard off.
If you have a problem with the forum rules, take it up with a Moderator, and don't flame/curse on the forums; it gets you into trouble. The rule about cursing is here because not everyone on the forums or who play NaturalSelection are adults, and there are SOME people under the ages of 16 who may be offended by swearing or not supposed to be hearing swearing. Thanks
Seen marines win plenty of time against 2 or even 3 hive aliens as long as they've had a decent amount of resources. Most hives are so easy to kill as a jet/HMG guy (or with two) it's not even funny and the only thing that can really stop you in some places is web.
Also, I would like to see it made impossible for JP's to get ontop of a hive, they can't be hit there by ANYTHING if they jet up the top of the hive and crouch there.
Also, I would like to see it made impossible for JP's to get ontop of a hive, they can't be hit there by ANYTHING if they jet up the top of the hive and crouch there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, what the offense chamber really needs is a hit percent greater than the 1% of all shots or so it currently has. If a gorge builds a wall of 6 OCs to block a tunnel, my chances of jumping over them and getting around a corner alive as an unupgraded marine is much larger than the offense chambers killing me. If offense chambers would hit with even 1/3rd of their shots they'd suddenly become a lot more formidable.
Depends what you mean by "Quickly".
I think the - old - stone marine tactic, was to lock down one hive, and go for the other within, atleast, 1 minute of it being errected. If you wait longer than, say, 3 minutes, it gives the aliens time to get organised. This varies of course, sometimes it takes aliens 30 minutes to get organised, sometimes it takes them 30 seconds.
So it's all about timing, I have no trouble letting my mainres face a fade or two, but only if they are attacking the hive at the time.
=========================================================
In order of game time...(This is my interpretation, isn't totally accurate)
Marines > Aliens (No cara) <b>Lasts about 4-5 minutes</b>
then...
Aliens > Marines (Cara 3 against lvl1) <b>Shouldn't be for long with a decent commander</b>
then...
Marines > Aliens (Medium/Good upgrades beating cara3) <b>This is a hard situation for aliens</b>
then...
Aliens > Marines (Lvl 2 Aliens against Light armour) <b>Not for long</b>
Finally...
Marines > Aliens (HA+HMG vs lvl2) <b>No time period here, it's an end game if the amrines are worth a penny</b>
Or...
Aliens > Marines (Lvl3 against...anything) <b>Another general endgame, aliens shouldn't lose</b>
it's a bit silly doing "Greater than" tables tbh, but I wanted to appear intelligent and analytical.