Thoughts, Thoughts

wrongwaygoback · May 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Just boucing them around.</div> Here are a couple of ideas I've been thinking of implementing on my map. Whaddaya reckon:

1. <b>Resource limitation</b>. I've noticed more and more that games are extending into the 1-2 hour zone, lotsa WOLs, bizarre command-chair stacking, etc. As far as I'm concerned a fast game is a good game. So I was thinking of really limiting the resources available. Maybe 250 in each starting resource node, and 110 in each of the extra 8 resource nodes. That gives 1880 total resources on map. For the aliens each of the extra 8 nodes is capable of paying for the resource tower to cap it and a hive. Encourages mid-field skrimishes, not just hive clamping. HMGs won't be handed out like candy, aliens will have to work together to get fades/onos. Question is, who wins if the resources run out?

2. <b>Presence madness</b>. A couple of things here: lights in a hallway that "follow" anyone in the hallway - as someone runs down the hall, the lights they are nearest to come on - I reckon this would look freaky if you were a rine and suddenly the lights at the end of the hall start coming towards you; "Alien Presence Detected" claxon alarm if an alien goes through a certain area.

Windelkron · May 2003

wow, that second idea would actually be pretty cool.

Another thing that'd be awesome if the lights went OFF as somebody approched.

So the hallway turns pitch black as a fade runs towards the marine...

or a fade blinks next to the marine and the lights around him go completely out... whooo!

taleden · May 2003

I like the ideas a lot in theory, I think you could come up with some really interesting custom gameplay maps with effects like that. However, as a practical matter, they would be difficult to impossible to implement:

<b>1.</b> Unfortunately, I don't think it's actually possible to specify the amount of resources available from the node; that was an idea that I guess Flayra was considering early on, but then decided to give all res nodes and infinite supply, but nobody ever took the value out of the FGD, so it still looks like you can set it manually.

Can anyone who knows for sure confirm or deny this?

However, with some clever scripting you could accomplish a similar effect. What you would need would be a chain of triggers for each res node, starting with the node's "on-build" and "on-destroy" triggers. On res node build, it would enable some kind of counter, and on destroy it would disable the counter. By successively pausing and restarting this counter, it would eventually run out and then you could kill the res node itself using the killtarget of the counter - no more res node, no more res.

Implementing the counter would be the tricky part.. you couldn't use a multimanager because there would be no way to pause it in the middle of its countdown, and I think the same is true for most other programmed delay triggers. What you could do, although this would cost an enormous number of entities, is create a func_train in some sealed, non-accessible portion of the map, and give it as many path_corner's as you want units in the countdown (the more units, the better the resolution of the pause/restart trigger, but of course the more entities too), and then have something like a trigger_random that would check every so often (whatever your unit length was - say, 10 seconds per path_corner) and if there was still a res tower on the node (which you would check using some kind of global state which is toggled on each build/destroy), it would signal the train to move ahead on station. When the train gets to the end, it destroys the node; if the node's tower is destroyed first, the train stays at that point until a new tower is built, and then it would continue "counting".

Unfortunately, this would require dozens of entities PER res node, which would get excessive very, very fast, so it's probably not a practical solution. But, I can't think of any other way to make a pausable timer.. maybe one of the gurus can help you out there. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

<b>2.</b> You could easiy construct such a passage using a lot of switchable lights and presence triggers; however, it would probably not be possible to compile such a passage. Recall that every face is allowed eight layers of light - meaning up to eight different styles (color, intensity, flicker, etc) on one face. The problem is that each bank of switchable lights in your passage would contribute two styles to all the nearby faces - one for when they're off and one for when they're on. So you could have at most three groups of lights that would be turned on/off by presence, and then you'd only be allowed two more static light types for the general illumination of the passage. I'm not sure if it would be possible to modify the compile tools to allow more light styles on a face - my feeling is it ends up being an HL engine restriction, so there isn't anything that can be done about it.

Kage · May 2003

As far as I know, the number of resources on a node is not implemented- have you ever seen a resource node run out of resources during a game?

Confused · May 2003

i thought aobut trying these ideas but the problem is teh fill my max 400 entities super fast the klaxon sounds good though

wrongwaygoback · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> that was an idea that I guess Flayra was considering early on, but then decided to give all res nodes and infinite supply, but nobody ever took the value out of the FGD, so it still looks like you can set it manually. Can anyone who knows for sure confirm or deny this?
--
As far as I know, the number of resources on a node is not implemented- have you ever seen a resource node run out of resources during a game?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I have never seen them run out, but the default is set to 2000 anyhoo, so if you cap it, you've got, what, an hour or so before the res runs out, by which time you've probably got another 3 or so resources churning away, so it would be hard to tell if one has run out... though with games running for three hours and the res still pouring in, it doesn't seem like the flag is working.

Does anyone know if it will be implemented for 1.1. I would very much like to use it (without resorting to a home-made timer)?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You could easiy construct such a passage using a lot of switchable lights and presence triggers; however, it would probably not be possible to compile such a passage</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Hmmm... I guess it would matter on how far the light is travelling, and if it lights the neighbouring tiles. You'd need at least 1 light per "area" for the base low-level lighting, plus 1 light per "area" to be switched on/off. That would make 3 light textures for that area. With 2, it would be nine - (3x3 combinations). Way over 8 already. Unless the switched lighting is far enough apart not to affect the others. Time to crank out ns_test to see if anything like this will work.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>or a fade blinks next to the marine and the lights around him go completely out... whooo!</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Yeah, but I'd need a reason why. It makes sense for lights to turn on when there's movement in their "range", but why would they turn off?

Windelkron · May 2003

bacteria interfering with the nanosystems?

Heist · May 2003

Check out the hallway outside of the marine spawn in ns_europa. It's possible.
Just use some trigger_presence ents and your all set.

wrongwaygoback · May 2003

Just thought I should put this up for further reference:

I built a hallway with three trigger presences linked to three different lights, plus three set lights. It worked fine - as you ran down the hallways each light lit up okay, no problems.

So I'm gonna use it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

drummingpariah · May 2003

another equally creepy idea IMHO is to have a switch that lights one light at a time in a quick succession down a hallway, and lights it for five seconds at most. then it goes black. maybe a tiny light glowing from the switch he just tripped and that's it. the switch can't be flipped again for five or ten seconds, just enough for a skulk to run up and... you know the rest.

Reese · May 2003

why do that? I mean, I know having a "DUH-DUH-DUH scary alien" scene would be cool and all, but why? More importantly, how can you explain someone BUILDING a room to work that way? I for one wouldn't design lighting that only stays on for five seconds, it makes no sense. Part of making any map is creating believable scenes.... and I just don't see how this one makes any sense at all. In the end it won't really seem scary, it will just seem kind of dumb.

Mendasp · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Reese @ May 15 2003, 08:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> creating believable scenes  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Aliens do NOT exist. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Ambience, in the right proportion can make a map look much better <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Reese · May 2003

I know aliens do not exist that's why I said believable instead of realistic. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

I do understand that ambience makes a map look better. To me playing a map with absolutely no shadows is about as fun as playing a map with no crates. (or whatever term you prefer for random stuff to use for cover and obstruct views) My point here was that the map shouldn't have ambience that doesn't make sense. Light following someone down a hallway is a cool effect, light turning on and off for no reason except to set the stage for a scary alien is pathetic b-movie sci-fi stuff.

tommy14 · May 2003

dumb way to do resource limit:
set up a timer to start with the map. at 360 sec/1 hr have a bunch of the res nodes killed by trigger hurts, or killed & blocked off with trains.....

wrongwaygoback · May 2003

The only reason I can think of the for the light-following-down-hallway effect is that, on a spaceship/spaceport/offworld colony, you'd wanna conserve as much energy as possible, so you'd dim the lights when there's no-one about, and brighten them when people are detected.

Of course, I work in an environmental engineering company, so I'm probably biased <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Reese · May 2003

makes sense to me. Evidently the ships nano-network can handle the necessary motion sensitivity anyways, if you can patch into it to make the motion tracking upgrade. I think it would be nice to make some doors that open BEFORE you actually get to them, but maybe that's just me.

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