Jetpacks And Lockdowns
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What shall become of marines?</div> It's an undeniable fact right now in 1.04 that the marines have the upper hand. However, I believe that is due to 2 factors: jetpack/hmg and the 2 hive lockdown. These are what gives the marine team such an advantage, to the point that the aliens really can't counter it. Take these tactics away, and marines will almost always lose in 1.04. The only games I've seen the marines succeed on when not using these tactics is on ns_nothing when they relocate to cargo bay hive, thus securing enough res points to quickly tech to ha (or far more commenly, jps). Wanna fortify your spawn in 1.04? Kiss the game goodbye. Wanna fortify those res points? Not a chance of success. Marines currently HAVE to lock down hives or gamble on a quick jp/hmg rush. Otherwise, the cold reality is they will lose.
What exactly is 1.1 going to do to address this, now that both these tactics are going to become extinct. Don't get me wrong; I loath both jp rushes and 2 hive lockdowns, but I still want to be able to win the occassional game as a marine. Right now in 1.04 aliens will win most pub games. Will 1.1 see this change to 100% wins for aliens, simply because there will be very few, if any, public server commanders and marine teams skilled enough to secure res points AND hives to prevent higher alien abilities and evolutions.
1.1 could well see the death of public NS playing if this isn't addressed. Because frankly, what I see in the beta discussion forum is the veterans not really caring one bit about public server players. Neither side should require clan-match levels of communication and co-ordination to win.
I have faith in the developers and pts though. My hope is that 1.1 will be equally good for public and clan games.
What exactly is 1.1 going to do to address this, now that both these tactics are going to become extinct. Don't get me wrong; I loath both jp rushes and 2 hive lockdowns, but I still want to be able to win the occassional game as a marine. Right now in 1.04 aliens will win most pub games. Will 1.1 see this change to 100% wins for aliens, simply because there will be very few, if any, public server commanders and marine teams skilled enough to secure res points AND hives to prevent higher alien abilities and evolutions.
1.1 could well see the death of public NS playing if this isn't addressed. Because frankly, what I see in the beta discussion forum is the veterans not really caring one bit about public server players. Neither side should require clan-match levels of communication and co-ordination to win.
I have faith in the developers and pts though. My hope is that 1.1 will be equally good for public and clan games.
Comments
Plus don't forget, tweaks are being made - in particular to the infinite thrust/super speed annoyance of the jetpack. People will no longer be able to fly around the hive indefinitely, out of range of jumping skulks, and therefore a JP rush will not be like giving your team magic shields. It means that a rush will probably take more skill, and it won't be a certainty - I don't see how this is a bad thing
Let's see:
Nerfed Jet pack
Nerfed HMG (has smaller spread so it'll suck at shooting skulks at your feet)
Can't drop health without research (or so I've heard)
Can't drop phase gates without research
Aliens can evolve to onos with only one hive
Alien structures can be cloaked
Skulk's bite doesn't obscure screen as much
Those are ALL things that will help out aliens. The only things I've read that will help out Marines are:
Electrified TF
and Electrified RT
Do you devs really think that's going to balance out? No way in hell! You don't take something that plays as well as NS 1.04 and then completely change all of the gameplay and strategys. It's just too much change. None of the marines strategies will work anymore.
anyways, would you want to do endless jp/hmg rushes for the rest of the days you play NS? Personally I was sick of them after the first 5.
Electrified TF
and Electrified RT <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Try reading the changelogs, since you've ignored virtually all of the marine boosts. The fact that you believe that a smaller HMG spread is a nerf shows how much thought you've put into your opinions.
Back to the design goals - marines use teamwork or LOSE!
Yeeessssss!
We played six games in a row on ReD's Skulk Pit server, and all I can say is: JUST AWESOME. By far some of the best games in 1.1 yet.
And interestingly, despite the marines getting the short end of the stick in 1.1i, they won 3 out of the 6 games.
Without a doubt the mine change Flayra has already made is needed, as will be changes like the regen fix, but overall I think the marines started to adapt to the playing field and we had some of the most awe inspiring battles I've seen in NS -- HMGs and GLs singing in unison as Onos and Fades charged our siege fortifcations. Mines and nades exploding all around, tracers flying in all directions, and aliens and marines dying in equal numbers. At one stage myself and another marine slaughted an Onos in a corridor, one of us perched at each end, laying into him as he charged. He fell just in time, but while reloading we were cleaned up by a Fade who zipped in from nowhere. The floors were a mixture of black scorch marks and splattered green blood. But with the technology, we came back quicker than they could replace their Fades and Onos. In areas where we had mined to defend our positions, skulks were leaping down off the rafters to clear a path for the heavier classes (and sometimes taking marines with them). Every single hive the marines took was an inch-by-inch battle, and with almost constant action I didn't notice at all that the games went on long (in fact they were better for it). Not until I saw the sun well and truly rise did I stop. Yessir! These were the battles I signed up for when I joined the TSA!
Some games were incredibly close. Even as the aliens munched on our IPs in one game, we advanced on their hive as a team of mixed HVY HMG/GLs and LMG marines, launching nades into Fusion like there was no tomorrow (and trying desperately not to hit our teammates -- tourney was on). The aliens won that one though, the marines dying in a flurry of Fade slashes, skulk bites, and the odd self-inflicted nade.
As for the games with my team as aliens, one match on Mineshaft saw us reduced from 3 hives to 1. The whole time the marine base remained lightly defended, but we were always pushed back. Once we lost bilebomb it became harder to take down their siege fortifications. Eventually we managed to reclaim half the nodes on the map (which they, previously, had taken from us) with Fade, Gorge and Skulk combos attacking and healing, and even reclaim a second hive, but we couldn't save the last hive from obliteration in time. We lost and it was a total blast to play.
It's interesting to contrast the feel of the games. Compared to 1.04, the game flow is more liquid. With the hallmark stages that the hives provided for both sides in 1.04 gone, the game can swing either way pretty much at any time. This liquidity and flexibility means you sometimes never know the outcome until the end. Mostly, the battles over nodes and territory in the games tonight were just more intense in a way that wasn't present in 1.04.
Thanks to Drac, Froggeh, DXO, mcclane, immacolata, khaim, Firewater, the [ReD] guys and the rest for some great games.
I was going to do some work today. I blame you all!
Signing off at 8am.
M <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=30&t=32931' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=30&t=32931</a>
I'm not worried whatsoever. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Back to the design goals - marines use teamwork or LOSE!
Yeeessssss! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
My thoughts exactly man. "Oh nos! Teh rambos r leaving teh gaem! Whatever shall we do?? i haevtns plaid teh gaem yet but im not gonna cuz its gonna be dum!!!1"
I have no respect for cowards who do nothing but jetpack rush every single round. All it does it show me that the marine team has no real grasp of tactics or actual planning skill, and would rather go for a cheap victory. When I com as a marine, I refuse to research jetpacks until near the end of the game. If my team, doesn't like it, they can find another server, because I won't cater to those lame people who want to take the easy way out.
Back to the design goals - marines use teamwork or LOSE!
Yeeessssss! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
**** you. I'm not a rambo. I always stick together with team mates and work together. And I comm a lot too. So **** you.
If you want to leave the game because it has become more balanced now and requires critical thinking, please do. I do not think the rambos and swear monkeys will be missed.
[edited for teh speeling]
btw have more faith on the PTers please, they're bread and butter is NS public play, I very much doubt that they dont give a **** about pub. Flayra and co will do everything in their powers to release a balanced mod. but just wait until 1.1 is out and see if any new strats develope (which i am sure there will be).
But i am all for, getting rid of the boring few strats rines employ. YAY for 1.1
Yeah, that was annoying, but there actually was a bug that was seperate from that which gave the marines an insane amount of res per tick, even if you didn't touch skills.cfg.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+ May 24 2003, 07:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 24 2003, 07:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
1.1 could well see the death of public NS playing if this isn't addressed. Because frankly, what I see in the beta discussion forum is the veterans not really caring one bit about public server players. Neither side should require clan-match levels of communication and co-ordination to win.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks for the vote of confidence. If we didn't care about you why would countless Veterans be answering/asking questions of EVERYBODY in the community on these forums. Some of have been living on these boards, mostly to answer questions (sometimes the same questions many times in the same day). Flayra just doubled the size of the Veteran's group this weekend, meaning that we are going into much more intensive testing than ever before. I have full confidence that the game is going to be balanced.. frankly Flayra doesn't really need our help that much. He's a genuis, he just has to observe patterns of our games for a little bit so that he can work out the problems in his mind.
<!--QuoteBegin--RPGreg2600+ May 24 2003, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RPGreg2600 @ May 24 2003, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Nerfed Jet pack
Nerfed HMG (has smaller spread so it'll suck at shooting skulks at your feet)
Can't drop health without research (or so I've heard)
Can't drop phase gates without research
Aliens can evolve to onos with only one hive
Alien structures can be cloaked
Skulk's bite doesn't obscure screen as much
Those are ALL things that will help out aliens. The only things I've read that will help out Marines are:
Electrified TF
and Electrified RT
Do you devs really think that's going to balance out? No way in hell! You don't take something that plays as well as NS 1.04 and then completely change all of the gameplay and strategys. It's just too much change. None of the marines strategies will work anymore.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
-Jetpack isn't nerfed (its fixed), its perfectly effective in most* situations.
-HMG definetly isn't nerfed. That gun is the death of aliens if they make too many mistakes. You can shoot skulks at your feet perfectly fine.
-Healthpacks were over-rated <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Phase Gates were over-rated, but they are still quite useful in 1.1. I've seen them used with varying degrees of success.
-1 hive onos rule... IF they have the right chamber. 2 hive onos rule period. By the 2 hive stage, onos should have at least 1 good upgrade option (celerity, regen, or carapace). Onos with sensory first isn't too great. It is slow!!!! and it has no healing or extra-armor. Doing a fast onos rush therefore "locks" the alien's tactics to certain chambers, etc. An onos also needs some skulk support to really dominate.
-Alien Structures can be cloaked... sure.. but I don't see how this is a nerf at all. You might get fooled once when you first walk into an area, but after that mistake, you know for sure all the information you need... afterall.. structures aren't gonna get up and walk somewhere else...
-Skulk bite doesn't obscure screen as much... Its still there.. and r_drawviewmodel can't be toggled to 0. So everybody will have skulk bite and has to deal with it. Its really not to terribly much of a difference. The only advantage I've noticed is the teeth look a bit cooler <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--MagiTek+ May 24 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MagiTek @ May 24 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Try reading the changelogs, since you've ignored virtually all of the marine boosts. The fact that you believe that a smaller HMG spread is a nerf shows how much thought you've put into your opinions.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, HMG definetly isn't nerfed. The fact that you can run nearly as fast with an HMG as LMG speed is WOW awesome cool.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've got no problem with new stratagies, the 1.04 ones are old and stale, not to mention unbalanced. However, I'm very concerned that as the game is being currently tested by the "best of the best clans" we'll end up with a game which results in horrible imbalances on the public servers, purely because there will be very few marine teams co-ordinated enough to undertake the nessassary tactics for victory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thanks for the vote of confidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, why should we public server players feel that our concerns will be addressed? All the veterans are exactly that: veterans, and you're all used to playing with excellent communication and teams that follow orders to the smallest detail. The same goes for the playtesters. But the simple fact remains that the vast majority of public server players <b>are neither as skilled or as co-ordinated you</b>. By leaving the testing up to a small group of high level players there's a big risk that the less experiance players will get an unbalanced product.
And what would the alternative be? Would you rather have random newbies looking for flaws? They won't find any, I can assure you.