Well that kinda sucks what they did to jp's in 1.1,so aliens can counter them? **** not everything has to be countered lol.Sorry for this but just by reading about some of the changes I know alot of 1.1 is going to blow.I enjoyed so much of floating and zipping around with a jetpack and hmg.weapon weight now effects jp? OMG and OMG fps no longer influences jp fuel regeneration? lol and another OMG acid rocket for a fade hive 3 ability? omg they'll probably lower the limit of webs for gorge,limit the number of jp's that can be handed out,limit the number of turrets that can be built etc.They'll probably even limit the number of alien classes ya can have too lol. Sorry for all this but only my 2 cents worth
Attacking a hive by yourself with an overpowered weapon and equipment is simple stuff, and doesn't require any real skill. Great for one-track thinking, that's for sure.
Teamwork and strategy is a much more ""elite"" skill than any bhopper/jetpacker. Dynamic tatics > Static skillz
Hey forlorn and Duck King. When you want to try to discuss an argument, it usually shoudlnt start by some flaming sentence, and telling us this skill prowess and "honor" you possess. Using a jetpack and a hmg to rush a lerk infested hive with every single alien trying to track you, and trying to keep your cool does require a "tad" of skill, I may say.
You dont research jps until the aliens have 2 hives and a fighting chance? GOOD FOR YOU. But you might want to try talking to the alien teams using Onos. Yes, those big cows. Do you think they require leet skills? I think not. The only true skill of being an Onos is not getting stuck. Sorry. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I never said i was "elite" bhopper with teh "elite" jetpacking skizzles. Did I?
Forlorn and Duck King. If you dont have anything nice to say, Dont say anything at all. Thanks.
By the way MrSNEAKY, calm down. Vets / PTers are trying their best to ensure masses like Duck King, you, forlorn, lucid, foolighter, etc have a blast with 1.1. It is our job to help Flayra make this game teh win. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes, we, the people who wish the game to be balanced for both sides involved are horrible monsters. Most hives a marine will jetpack into are hardly ever lerk infested. Most of the time it is a gorge who just build his first D chamber after securing his first resource nozzle. If the marines are in fact zooming into a hive that is lerk infested, then the game has been going on for some time, which I do not have a problem with. The jetpack rush is near perfectly reliable, yet I have yet to see a perfectly reliable counter for it, therefore, it is unbalanced. A marine team can easily tech up to jetpacks and HMGs with ONE RESOURCE NOZZLE. I have seen it done MANY times, and it has become very common. Too common in fact.
Your argument about the onos is a moot one. The aliens cannot gain an onos within five minutes of the game using only one resource nozzle. It is something the aliens have to fight to earn. As on 1.04, the marines simply have to crack open a few beers, keep the aliens off of the initial res, and then go to town after a few minutes. "OMgz teh tactacs boggle teh mindz!"
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
Why don't we all save our comments about how the JP is not going to be worth it and all until <i>after</i> we have actually seen it with our own eyes? Ah what am I saying? Lets do it anyway, I mean, who cares about all that logic crap anyways?
The JP gives you about one burst of upward as well as horizontal movement, for as long as you hold jump/have fuel. If you let go you will fall, and can not regain an upward flight, thought holding jump will slow your decent. It really is more of a jumpack than a jetpack now. They are decent counters to onos, and immune to stomp, but you have to keep your distance regardless. They cost 20 now, and require an armory -> upgraded armory -> proto lab.
<!--QuoteBegin--Duck_King+May 26 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duck_King @ May 26 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your argument about the onos is a moot one. The aliens cannot gain an onos within five minutes of the game using only one resource nozzle. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as 1.1 is concerned, this is not true.
<!--QuoteBegin--mcclane+May 26 2003, 09:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mcclane @ May 26 2003, 09:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Duck_King+May 26 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duck_King @ May 26 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Your argument about the onos is a moot one. The aliens cannot gain an onos within five minutes of the game using only one resource nozzle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As far as 1.1 is concerned, this is not true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but it seemed we were "debating" from a 1.04 standpoint. I was not factoring in 1.1
the patch isn't even out and already are the forumites divided in two factions(one faction says that JP/HMG rushing is skillfull and another one says that they're happy to see JP nerfed.) i don't give my symphathy to either one of 'em.
the JP rush is plain stupid, it is based on the idea on winning fast and spoiling the game for the other side(this might be in real warfare common, but this is a game) by teching up quickly and chastizing their comm if they have fades.the fact that JPing is skillfull isn't completely true, you're fighting against skulks that maybe don't have a single upgrade and sometimes a lerk. what is the big deal 'bout that?(i never JP-rush, i like HA more'cause you have more staying power) and if a fade pops up all the JPers will be dead in 5 mins and the 'rines will chastize their comm. and who do clanner commanders always have to end a public game in 3 minutes? on voogru i remember a clanner comm who rushed with JP and suddenly they had fades and a hive.(me dunno what happened, prollie one of those voogru things that happen).(yes i can connect to th server finaly). also your "elite" JPing/lerking is a lie. you just kill and rush(and you say you have honor?), but you don't support much, you criticize others because they use a weapon of spam.(who cares anyway?)
lerk is now called a spamming class? not completely true. just because spore is an early attack. i used bite rarely, i depended on my spikes to kill enemy 'rines(they can confuse 'em good if you hover around, at least till they have a decent HMGer) and spikes can require a large degree of skill if you fight the way i do.
i hope they will finaly be able to do a normal game of NS where you don't get rushed after 30 seconds. geez, how long has it been since i was inside a HA? i once called 'em coffins of death, but i like them. they can stand more punishment and are not as risky as JPs.
No matter what your arguments on how current jetpacks work or if they take skill or not. The simple fact is they are inherantly solo rambo creating tools.
Standard marines- tendency to work in groups.
Heavy armor- Extreme tendency to work in groups.
Jet packs- Bye cya guys, weeeeeeeee (no tendency at all to work in groups)
Jet packs as they are are the only marine class that almost force the marine wearing one to break the teamwork mold for the marine team. Look how many times a game will start and you'll have a couple marines argueing "give ME the jp/hmg, I'LL win this game in 2 mins flat cuz im so "elite"." It is pretty obvious that the marines were Never intended to have solo minded play styles like this, especially ones that result in one player "winning" while the rest of the team sits around.
You wanna change that mentality and reality then you change the jet pack.
<!--QuoteBegin--stellerwinds+May 24 2003, 08:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (stellerwinds @ May 24 2003, 08:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Being able to fly and bite the jetpackers to death was one of the main arguments ive been reading about if not The main one for keeping lerk bite. What point am i missing? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That is entirely not true. Theres very long posts on reasons why (including a very long one accidently started be me who never bothered to edit the other mistake in his original post) and hardly any defenses mention to stop jpers.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+May 25 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ May 25 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Example 2....what version of CS was harder to play? Current, or pre-bhop....Pre-bhop...why? Because of the manuvers that you were able to do. Players could effectivly move more quickly around the map making the game more interesting and actually making you think quickly and be on your toes. Now without bhopping, the game has come to people spamming flash nades at their spawns and spraying pr0n everywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> CS is one hundred kazillion times better without bhopping
I never saw JP HMG as a problem either... One hive? so what, they will have unupgraded HMGs and Armour. One word "SPIKES" a lowly 33 res spent by one of the team while still on the first hive and the lerk that pops up should simply stay near the hive, have him take carapace, bye bye about 14hp dmg so the lerk takes 6 or so damage to his hp each hmg shot, combine this with the hive and dcs healing him, and he becomes satan on steroids as far as those JP hmgers are concerned. Its fun tbh, like a shooting gallary as 1, 2, 3 and the 4th and 5th JPer falls beneath your hail of spikes. You'll probably get called a cheat because u dont die, but heh, thats cause they dont understand. As far as bhop goes i find it harder for marines against a bunnyhopping skulk than skulks against a bunnyhopping marine. when a skulk can cross a corridor in less than a second it causes problems, but marines do it simply to get from place to place, ot for combat like skulks do. Those who can do it in combat as marine should be looked upon in awe, lets be honest,t hat is one hell of a skill they have. BUT when fades start it then things go nipples up for marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Lt. Hendrickson+May 26 2003, 01:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt. Hendrickson @ May 26 2003, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+May 25 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ May 25 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Example 2....what version of CS was harder to play? Current, or pre-bhop....Pre-bhop...why? Because of the manuvers that you were able to do. Players could effectivly move more quickly around the map making the game more interesting and actually making you think quickly and be on your toes. Now without bhopping, the game has come to people spamming flash nades at their spawns and spraying pr0n everywhere. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> CS is one hundred kazillion times better without bhopping <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ROFL that brings CS up to 0.100(onward to kazillion after point)/10
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkFrost+May 26 2003, 02:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ May 26 2003, 02:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> One word "SPIKES" a lowly 33 res spent by one of the team while still on the first hive and the lerk that pops up should simply stay near the hive, have him take carapace, bye bye about 14hp dmg so the lerk takes 6 or so damage to his hp each hmg shot, combine this with the hive and dcs healing him, and he becomes satan on steroids as far as those JP hmgers are concerned. Its fun tbh, like a shooting gallary as 1, 2, 3 and the 4th and 5th JPer falls beneath your hail of spikes. You'll probably get called a cheat because u dont die, but heh, thats cause they dont understand. As far as bhop goes i find it harder for marines against a bunnyhopping skulk than skulks against a bunnyhopping marine. when a skulk can cross a corridor in less than a second it causes problems, but marines do it simply to get from place to place, ot for combat like skulks do. Those who can do it in combat as marine should be looked upon in awe, lets be honest,t hat is one hell of a skill they have. BUT when fades start it then things go nipples up for marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Man if those jps had even half a brain they'd ignore the lerk and just shoot the hive. You can't spike down 5 jps faster than they could shoot down a hive.
We are talking one hive here, e.g early rush like in clan games. unupgraded they take ages to kill, and yes only 10 spikes each marine so if u aim right all marines dead VERY soon. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> (DCs are there too most likely)
and where are u gonna get the res for evolving in lerk? and how much DCs will the gorges have up in that time? we're still talking in 1.1 terms, Darkfrost. also, a HMG can kill a sitting lerk faster than spikes and take healthspamming in consideration too.
stellerwinds is quite right. Jp invites peeps to rambo, while a HA train has to rely on eachother to survive.(HA is though, but it ain't build for speed).
but no matter what the devs do, they'll prollie find another lame tactic.
<!--QuoteBegin--SoBe.Dragon+May 25 2003, 12:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoBe.Dragon @ May 25 2003, 12:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So what is going to be more fun? V1.04, or V1.1? V1.04...why? Because nothing compares to having an hmg and 4 skulks trying to kill you all while avoiding firing O chambers and webbing. Now its just gonna be.......Up.....Down.....game over man! No thought process, no speed of mind, no quick reaction time neccessary, no need to think on your toes...just let the physics system kill you.
I think everyone needs to remember where the roots of half-life are...fun, first person, quick paced action fighting. Not "waa, this doesnt fit the environment" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What you describe is just one kind of thinking. When you can't wiz around like you can in 1.04, you'll have to think more tactically. It'll be harder to be a one man army, encouraging actual team play.
You last argument is entirely bogus: while NS does have its technical roots in half-life, Natural Selection is in fact a different game than half-life, so there is no obligation for NS to be like HL in any way.
Your definition of fun seems to be one-sided, since you analize the nerfed jetpack only from the perspective of the marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--KingKupo+May 26 2003, 02:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KingKupo @ May 26 2003, 02:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> and where are u gonna get the res for evolving in lerk? and how much DCs will the gorges have up in that time? we're still talking in 1.1 terms, Darkfrost. also, a HMG can kill a sitting lerk faster than spikes and take healthspamming in consideration too.
stellerwinds is quite right. Jp invites peeps to rambo, while a HA train has to rely on eachother to survive.(HA is though, but it ain't build for speed).
but no matter what the devs do, they'll prollie find another lame tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I was talking about what one of the vets was, ATM 1.04 the problems addressed are not really problems, and atm you can lerk before they get hmg jp, also you dont sit while shooting spikes thats silly <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> But yeah the new things they are doing will make teamwork a key element, there was a time one marine with JP HMG could kill all the hives then the aliens got wise and started using lerks, that was my point mate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
its 15 res for a new JP afaik, and it's not <b>"nerfed"</b> it's <b>"fixed"</b>
<i>nerfing</i> something is where the designers change something which was integral to most people's enjoyment of the game <i>and/or</i> the balance of power between different elements of the game, into something which no longer fills the essential slot that the original thing did. hence, breaking an important mechanic; it usually happens when the devs are out of touch with how the game is played by the majority, and so, is very very rare these days. (my memory tickles me to think that the term nerfing came from the original unreal... but now i'm thinking there was some Nerf mod for that, so more likely it came from some mmorpg, probably ultima. the word is <b>very</b> rarely used for it's real meaning, it's far more commonly used by the most successful players of a game, when the unbalanced technique they used to <i>become</i> the most successful players.
case in point: jetpacking. specifically jp-hmg rushing.
jetpacks are overpowered in every respect. literally. they could be used with the team's most powerful weaponry; capable of dealing a game-turning blow in 1 magazine. they could appear <i>long</i> before any counters to them could appear (you mentioned a hive full of lerks...? against you? 8v8? right).
although that about sums it up, i'll spell it out.
there is very little skill to using the current jetpacks effectively. you may be able to control yours to some incredible degree, losing no time through vents and awkwardly shaped corridors, but it takes far less skill to fly into a hive and decimate it in as long as it takes for you to unload a single clip while avoiding the <b>skulks</b> who can only realistically take down a JPer with remotely good aim, on the floor or ceiling... while never ever being forced by the game to go anywhere <i>near</i> those places for any length of time (or with high fps, ever).
counters include lerks (to a degree): an exceptional lerk can intercept a JPer in a large room like via, refinery, silo etc and bite him mid-air. although at one hive, who's your money on really? hmm. and yes, i've seen and know several very, very skilled lerk biters. other counters at one hive?: there was a thread a while ago, suggesting things ranging from mass parasite (c'mon) to the majority of the team going gorge and putting up an OC each in between continued, frenzied, healing of the hive. So a number of "counters" that require the entire team, a lot of res and a lot of luck, to stop one man with about 34 res of equipment and a few mins of the marine team's time to employ? great counters at 2 hives are much better, webs, probably the best bet (assuming you have a gorge at the right place - unlikely, as well as the fatty's gonna take ages to get there. eclipse can go down by the time you walk back from triad res, if they've got more than 1 person with lev3 ammo. not at all difficult by 2 hive stage. great fades and umbra lerks in combination are also very deadly, but again, you need both in the same place for full effect, and the JP can scoot off anywhere on the map with no such problem.
overall, the point being, that one man with a pittance's worth of kit should pose no threat to the entire alien team if they're mostly competant and playing sensibly/well. but he does. this may feel really good for that one man, "keeping his cool" under a hail of fire from lerks and "frantically" hovering-above-the-floor-and-its-skulks-like-a-cartoon-character-over-crocodiles... but each of those crocodiles, sorry skulks, is a person sitting at their computer somewhere, knowing that if they don't do their level best to bring down this buzzing little git, then their hive, and very likely the 2-30 mins of game previous to this moment has been for nothing, which is less good.
also, a jp-hmg rush has no bearing on the game that came before it. with any other tactic, (ideally, once the game is as it was intended, a strategy game with fps stylings and viewpoints) a skilled alien, will be able to read the comm's actions and think maybe: they're going for a slow turreting up of key choke points, cutting off res and beating us in a battle of attrition with sheer resources, until we have no control over the map and they can just siege our last hive. or indeed any other overall plan.
jetpackers come from nowhere, and can get anywhere very quickly although they make a fair bit of noise. that's no problem of course if they're shooting off away from the frontlines to set up a siege at the alien's first hive or something, but to go from "our hive is under attack" to the hive being dead in nowhere near enough time for a decent number of aliens to get to its defence is only ok if the aliens have plenty of warning <i>before</i> "our hive is under attack" such as they get with a slow-moving HA group, or pg/tf outside the hive. JP-hmgs kill hives as fast or faster than either of those methods, cost less and are harder to defend against. qed?
I think the simple solution is to make it so you have to upgrade the jetpack just like you would upgrade weapons. Make it start out all nerfed and crappy, and then end up like it is in 1.04 once it's at level 3. This would eliminate jetpack rushes at one hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--Duck_King+May 26 2003, 04:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duck_King @ May 26 2003, 04:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have a news flash for you. Bunny hopping does not take skill... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, I hate when people just start pulling crap out of their wazoo. You, not knowing how to bunnyhop, are not in a position to say whether it takes skill or not. It does in fact take skill <b>and</b> practice, and not everyone that bunnyhops is complaining about the jetpack change. I know how to bunnyhop, do so regularly, but still I don't mind the jetpack change, or even the removal of bunnyhopping, because I can see where the devs are coming from. It just pisses me off when pretentious "rightous" gamers lump all jetpackers and bunnyhoppers into a group they label as "evil exploits" and don't think twice about it. And when they start pretending bunnyhopping doesn't take skill is when I start getting sick.
<!--QuoteBegin--RandomEngy+May 26 2003, 11:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RandomEngy @ May 26 2003, 11:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Duck_King+May 26 2003, 04:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duck_King @ May 26 2003, 04:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have a news flash for you. Bunny hopping does not take skill... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, I hate when people just start pulling crap out of their wazoo. You, not knowing how to bunnyhop, are not in a position to say whether it takes skill or not. It does in fact take skill <b>and</b> practice, and not everyone that bunnyhops is complaining about the jetpack change. I know how to bunnyhop, do so regularly, but still I don't mind the jetpack change, or even the removal of bunnyhopping, because I can see where the devs are coming from. It just pisses me off when pretentious "rightous" gamers lump all jetpackers and bunnyhoppers into a group they label as "evil exploits" and don't think twice about it. And when they start pretending bunnyhopping doesn't take skill is when I start getting sick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not like Bhopping or JP rushes take any kind "leet" skill or training/pratice to be used, any lame lama can do it. You may believe that because you are able to do it (with diffaculty?) not every one can, but I have seen a seven year old at a CS LAN game use bunny hopping to get to places just as quickly as veteran clan players. And it isn't an exploit, but it does confer an unintentional advantage. People who do it want to win and are willing to use what ever it takes to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin--Infected Marine+May 27 2003, 05:03 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Infected Marine @ May 27 2003, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ...but I have seen a seven year old at a CS LAN game use bunny hopping to get to places just as quickly as veteran clan players. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if the seven year old practiced at it for a long time, then it still is skill. It's also easier to build up speed when your base speed is lower, like in CS. Anyway, it is a bit easier with mousewheel or a 3-4x jump script (which he might be using, you can barely tell the jump script even if you're watching him), but it still takes quite a bit of practice. (I bunnyhop without doing either of those, by the way)
<!--QuoteBegin--RandomEngy+May 27 2003, 12:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RandomEngy @ May 27 2003, 12:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> (I bunnyhop without doing either of those, by the way) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Case and point!
Comments
Well that kinda sucks what they did to jp's in 1.1,so aliens can counter them? **** not everything has to be countered lol.Sorry for this but just by reading about some of the changes I know alot of 1.1 is going to blow.I enjoyed so much of floating and zipping around with a jetpack and hmg.weapon weight now effects jp? OMG and OMG fps no longer influences jp fuel regeneration? lol and another OMG acid rocket for a fade hive 3 ability? omg they'll probably lower the limit of webs for gorge,limit the number of jp's that can be handed out,limit the number of turrets that can be built etc.They'll probably even limit the number of alien classes ya can have too lol. Sorry for all this but only my 2 cents worth
Teamwork and strategy is a much more ""elite"" skill than any bhopper/jetpacker. Dynamic tatics > Static skillz
You dont research jps until the aliens have 2 hives and a fighting chance? GOOD FOR YOU. But you might want to try talking to the alien teams using Onos. Yes, those big cows. Do you think they require leet skills? I think not. The only true skill of being an Onos is not getting stuck. Sorry. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I never said i was "elite" bhopper with teh "elite" jetpacking skizzles. Did I?
Forlorn and Duck King. If you dont have anything nice to say, Dont say anything at all. Thanks.
By the way MrSNEAKY, calm down. Vets / PTers are trying their best to ensure masses like Duck King, you, forlorn, lucid, foolighter, etc have a blast with 1.1. It is our job to help Flayra make this game teh win. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Your argument about the onos is a moot one. The aliens cannot gain an onos within five minutes of the game using only one resource nozzle. It is something the aliens have to fight to earn. As on 1.04, the marines simply have to crack open a few beers, keep the aliens off of the initial res, and then go to town after a few minutes. "OMgz teh tactacs boggle teh mindz!"
As far as 1.1 is concerned, this is not true.
As far as 1.1 is concerned, this is not true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but it seemed we were "debating" from a 1.04 standpoint. I was not factoring in 1.1
Is that supposed to be me?
the JP rush is plain stupid, it is based on the idea on winning fast and spoiling the game for the other side(this might be in real warfare common, but this is a game) by teching up quickly and chastizing their comm if they have fades.the fact that JPing is skillfull isn't completely true, you're fighting against skulks that maybe don't have a single upgrade and sometimes a lerk.
what is the big deal 'bout that?(i never JP-rush, i like HA more'cause you have more staying power) and if a fade pops up all the JPers will be dead in 5 mins and the 'rines will chastize their comm. and who do clanner commanders always have to end a public game in 3 minutes? on voogru i remember a clanner comm who rushed with JP and suddenly they had fades and a hive.(me dunno what happened, prollie one of those voogru things that happen).(yes i can connect to th server finaly).
also your "elite" JPing/lerking is a lie. you just kill and rush(and you say you have honor?), but you don't support much, you criticize others because they use a weapon of spam.(who cares anyway?)
lerk is now called a spamming class? not completely true. just because spore is an early attack. i used bite rarely, i depended on my spikes to kill enemy 'rines(they can confuse 'em good if you hover around, at least till they have a decent HMGer) and spikes can require a large degree of skill if you fight the way i do.
i hope they will finaly be able to do a normal game of NS where you don't get rushed after 30 seconds. geez, how long has it been since i was inside a HA? i once called 'em coffins of death, but i like them. they can stand more punishment and are not as risky as JPs.
Standard marines- tendency to work in groups.
Heavy armor- Extreme tendency to work in groups.
Jet packs- Bye cya guys, weeeeeeeee (no tendency at all to work in groups)
Jet packs as they are are the only marine class that almost force the marine wearing one to break the teamwork mold for the marine team. Look how many times a game will start and you'll have a couple marines argueing "give ME the jp/hmg, I'LL win this game in 2 mins flat cuz im so "elite"."
It is pretty obvious that the marines were Never intended to have solo minded play styles like this, especially ones that result in one player "winning" while the rest of the team sits around.
You wanna change that mentality and reality then you change the jet pack.
That is entirely not true. Theres very long posts on reasons why (including a very long one accidently started be me who never bothered to edit the other mistake in his original post) and hardly any defenses mention to stop jpers.
Example 2....what version of CS was harder to play? Current, or pre-bhop....Pre-bhop...why? Because of the manuvers that you were able to do. Players could effectivly move more quickly around the map making the game more interesting and actually making you think quickly and be on your toes. Now without bhopping, the game has come to people spamming flash nades at their spawns and spraying pr0n everywhere.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is one hundred kazillion times better without bhopping
Its fun tbh, like a shooting gallary as 1, 2, 3 and the 4th and 5th JPer falls beneath your hail of spikes. You'll probably get called a cheat because u dont die, but heh, thats cause they dont understand.
As far as bhop goes i find it harder for marines against a bunnyhopping skulk than skulks against a bunnyhopping marine. when a skulk can cross a corridor in less than a second it causes problems, but marines do it simply to get from place to place, ot for combat like skulks do. Those who can do it in combat as marine should be looked upon in awe, lets be honest,t hat is one hell of a skill they have. BUT when fades start it then things go nipples up for marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Example 2....what version of CS was harder to play? Current, or pre-bhop....Pre-bhop...why? Because of the manuvers that you were able to do. Players could effectivly move more quickly around the map making the game more interesting and actually making you think quickly and be on your toes. Now without bhopping, the game has come to people spamming flash nades at their spawns and spraying pr0n everywhere.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
CS is one hundred kazillion times better without bhopping <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
ROFL that brings CS up to 0.100(onward to kazillion after point)/10
Its fun tbh, like a shooting gallary as 1, 2, 3 and the 4th and 5th JPer falls beneath your hail of spikes. You'll probably get called a cheat because u dont die, but heh, thats cause they dont understand.
As far as bhop goes i find it harder for marines against a bunnyhopping skulk than skulks against a bunnyhopping marine. when a skulk can cross a corridor in less than a second it causes problems, but marines do it simply to get from place to place, ot for combat like skulks do. Those who can do it in combat as marine should be looked upon in awe, lets be honest,t hat is one hell of a skill they have. BUT when fades start it then things go nipples up for marines. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man if those jps had even half a brain they'd ignore the lerk and just shoot the hive. You can't spike down 5 jps faster than they could shoot down a hive.
also, a HMG can kill a sitting lerk faster than spikes and take healthspamming in consideration too.
stellerwinds is quite right. Jp invites peeps to rambo, while a HA train has to rely on eachother to survive.(HA is though, but it ain't build for speed).
but no matter what the devs do, they'll prollie find another lame tactic.
I think everyone needs to remember where the roots of half-life are...fun, first person, quick paced action fighting. Not "waa, this doesnt fit the environment" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you describe is just one kind of thinking.
When you can't wiz around like you can in 1.04, you'll have to think more tactically. It'll be harder to be a one man army, encouraging actual team play.
You last argument is entirely bogus: while NS does have its technical roots in half-life, Natural Selection is in fact a different game than half-life, so there is no obligation for NS to be like HL in any way.
Your definition of fun seems to be one-sided, since you analize the nerfed jetpack only from the perspective of the marines.
also, a HMG can kill a sitting lerk faster than spikes and take healthspamming in consideration too.
stellerwinds is quite right. Jp invites peeps to rambo, while a HA train has to rely on eachother to survive.(HA is though, but it ain't build for speed).
but no matter what the devs do, they'll prollie find another lame tactic. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was talking about what one of the vets was, ATM 1.04 the problems addressed are not really problems, and atm you can lerk before they get hmg jp, also you dont sit while shooting spikes thats silly <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
But yeah the new things they are doing will make teamwork a key element, there was a time one marine with JP HMG could kill all the hives then the aliens got wise and started using lerks, that was my point mate <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<i>nerfing</i> something is where the designers change something which was integral to most people's enjoyment of the game <i>and/or</i> the balance of power between different elements of the game, into something which no longer fills the essential slot that the original thing did. hence, breaking an important mechanic; it usually happens when the devs are out of touch with how the game is played by the majority, and so, is very very rare these days.
(my memory tickles me to think that the term nerfing came from the original unreal... but now i'm thinking there was some Nerf mod for that, so more likely it came from some mmorpg, probably ultima.
the word is <b>very</b> rarely used for it's real meaning, it's far more commonly used by the most successful players of a game, when the unbalanced technique they used to <i>become</i> the most successful players.
case in point: jetpacking.
specifically jp-hmg rushing.
jetpacks are overpowered in every respect. literally.
they could be used with the team's most powerful weaponry; capable of dealing a game-turning blow in 1 magazine.
they could appear <i>long</i> before any counters to them could appear (you mentioned a hive full of lerks...? against you? 8v8? right).
although that about sums it up, i'll spell it out.
there is very little skill to using the current jetpacks effectively. you may be able to control yours to some incredible degree, losing no time through vents and awkwardly shaped corridors, but it takes far less skill to fly into a hive and decimate it in as long as it takes for you to unload a single clip while avoiding the <b>skulks</b> who can only realistically take down a JPer with remotely good aim, on the floor or ceiling... while never ever being forced by the game to go anywhere <i>near</i> those places for any length of time (or with high fps, ever).
counters include lerks (to a degree): an exceptional lerk can intercept a JPer in a large room like via, refinery, silo etc and bite him mid-air. although at one hive, who's your money on really? hmm. and yes, i've seen and know several very, very skilled lerk biters.
other counters at one hive?: there was a thread a while ago, suggesting things ranging from mass parasite (c'mon) to the majority of the team going gorge and putting up an OC each in between continued, frenzied, healing of the hive.
So a number of "counters" that require the entire team, a lot of res and a lot of luck, to stop one man with about 34 res of equipment and a few mins of the marine team's time to employ? great
counters at 2 hives are much better, webs, probably the best bet (assuming you have a gorge at the right place - unlikely, as well as the fatty's gonna take ages to get there. eclipse can go down by the time you walk back from triad res, if they've got more than 1 person with lev3 ammo. not at all difficult by 2 hive stage. great
fades and umbra lerks in combination are also very deadly, but again, you need both in the same place for full effect, and the JP can scoot off anywhere on the map with no such problem.
overall, the point being, that one man with a pittance's worth of kit should pose no threat to the entire alien team if they're mostly competant and playing sensibly/well. but he does. this may feel really good for that one man, "keeping his cool" under a hail of fire from lerks and "frantically" hovering-above-the-floor-and-its-skulks-like-a-cartoon-character-over-crocodiles... but each of those crocodiles, sorry skulks, is a person sitting at their computer somewhere, knowing that if they don't do their level best to bring down this buzzing little git, then their hive, and very likely the 2-30 mins of game previous to this moment has been for nothing, which is less good.
also, a jp-hmg rush has no bearing on the game that came before it.
with any other tactic, (ideally, once the game is as it was intended, a strategy game with fps stylings and viewpoints) a skilled alien, will be able to read the comm's actions and think maybe: they're going for a slow turreting up of key choke points, cutting off res and beating us in a battle of attrition with sheer resources, until we have no control over the map and they can just siege our last hive.
or indeed any other overall plan.
jetpackers come from nowhere, and can get anywhere very quickly although they make a fair bit of noise. that's no problem of course if they're shooting off away from the frontlines to set up a siege at the alien's first hive or something, but to go from "our hive is under attack" to the hive being dead in nowhere near enough time for a decent number of aliens to get to its defence is only ok if the aliens have plenty of warning <i>before</i> "our hive is under attack" such as they get with a slow-moving HA group, or pg/tf outside the hive.
JP-hmgs kill hives as fast or faster than either of those methods, cost less and are harder to defend against.
qed?
Sorry, I hate when people just start pulling crap out of their wazoo. You, not knowing how to bunnyhop, are not in a position to say whether it takes skill or not. It does in fact take skill <b>and</b> practice, and not everyone that bunnyhops is complaining about the jetpack change. I know how to bunnyhop, do so regularly, but still I don't mind the jetpack change, or even the removal of bunnyhopping, because I can see where the devs are coming from. It just pisses me off when pretentious "rightous" gamers lump all jetpackers and bunnyhoppers into a group they label as "evil exploits" and don't think twice about it. And when they start pretending bunnyhopping doesn't take skill is when I start getting sick.
Sorry, I hate when people just start pulling crap out of their wazoo. You, not knowing how to bunnyhop, are not in a position to say whether it takes skill or not. It does in fact take skill <b>and</b> practice, and not everyone that bunnyhops is complaining about the jetpack change. I know how to bunnyhop, do so regularly, but still I don't mind the jetpack change, or even the removal of bunnyhopping, because I can see where the devs are coming from. It just pisses me off when pretentious "rightous" gamers lump all jetpackers and bunnyhoppers into a group they label as "evil exploits" and don't think twice about it. And when they start pretending bunnyhopping doesn't take skill is when I start getting sick. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not like Bhopping or JP rushes take any kind "leet" skill or training/pratice to be used, any lame lama can do it. You may believe that because you are able to do it (with diffaculty?) not every one can, but I have seen a seven year old at a CS LAN game use bunny hopping to get to places just as quickly as veteran clan players. And it isn't an exploit, but it does confer an unintentional advantage. People who do it want to win and are willing to use what ever it takes to do so.
Well if the seven year old practiced at it for a long time, then it still is skill. It's also easier to build up speed when your base speed is lower, like in CS. Anyway, it is a bit easier with mousewheel or a 3-4x jump script (which he might be using, you can barely tell the jump script even if you're watching him), but it still takes quite a bit of practice. (I bunnyhop without doing either of those, by the way)
Case and point!