Spawn Camping Against Aliens Not Cool
Act_Chill
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
Join Date: 2003-04-24 Member: 15816Members
Comments
thing is, if an alien spawncamps, he has the opportunity to end the round instantly, while a spawn camping marine is only slowing down the skulks, because he cant kill the hive on his own, (assuming lmg)
read the other huge thread on spawncamping and see what everyone else thinks.
Later builds of 1.1 in playtest will address this.
Later builds of 1.1 in playtest will address this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree.
*Puts on flame suit*
You mean in the same way sirius told us all WHY he thinks its unacceptable?
its not his fault the base/hive defense was weak..
look at this scenario:
a marine runs to the hive, on the way, he kills a couple of skulks, and in the main hive he kills a few more, then he sees a skulk spawn, is he suppose to think *omg they will call me a spawn camper if i kill him, so i might as well tuck my tail in-between my legs and run even if my lmg and pistol both have ammo*...
this type of schtick is retarded.... let it go...
this type of schtick is retarded.... let it go...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just have to make an exagerated likness out of this.
"So he runs into a departmentstore, dodge a couple of cameras and hides a couple of games or what not under his cloathes. Now he sees the manager coming at him so is he supposed to think *omg he will call me a thief if I steal this so I better show him what I have taken even if I could outrun him*?
This type of thing is retarted"
Was anyone able to follow my reasoning? Of course if you're allready there then maybe you shouldn't lay down and die but the question is why where you in that situation from the start? "Oh I didn't plan on stealing but since I have allready hid the stuff on my person I might just as well go thruw with it."
If you place yourself in a situation then you better take responsibilty for it.
Now I don't think spawncamping is just as bad as stealing it was just an example and I don't think that spawncamping is wrong in every situation but the quoted scenario is simply deffective.
i went to the hive and the plan is to kill.. so i did..
*if* i went to the department store, and stole something, i could outrun the manager, but a marine with no JP can NEVER outrun a skulk.... run = die, so just fight back..
but if ur biting/shooting the ip/hive and killing any reinforcements then thats acceptable
I tend to take a very hard line on spawn camping, and I welcome any changes to reduce its prevalence.
Good enough rule ? Easy enough to enforce! Problem ----- Solved!
spawn camping against marines is very easy to sort out. If you are sitting on the only ip and chomping every marine who spawns but NOT chomping the IP then you are spawn camping and I would be quick to warn/kick people for doing such things. The game is won simply by a skulk finishing off that ip and it is extremely easy to do and he need not "spawn camp" for more than a few seconds.
however marines spawncamping a hive is much harder to do. The aliens spawn randomly in different spots. The hive is NOT necessarily the spawn point so you can't shoot the hive and also kill spawning skulks without moving your point of aim (like a skulk vs ip/marine). The hive is 6000 hitpoints and heals itself, plus any d chambers under it, so it is MUCH harder for a single lmg marine to take down a Hive.
So given the fact that it is very hard for a single lmg marine to take a hive down by himself without getting killed by spawning skulks I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a marine camping a hive and killing skulks as they spawn. Especially in the early game if it meant not only slowing alien development but also allowing the rest of the marine team to expand, unmolested.
I understand completely how frustrating it can be for the aliens but it is a VERY rare occasion that it can happen for any great length of time. With the random spawn points it would be unusual for a marine to last very long without getting bit a couple times and it usually only takes 2, maybe 3 bites at that stage of the game to kill him. and tbh in the early part of the game it is no different than a successful alien rush. A good comander, upon seeing a marine successfully camping a hive, should simply send all the rest of his marines to take down the hive which is being controlled by that "spawn camping marine".
Really, it's not a huge issue as far as I am concerned.
Spiderman
Actually the game is won by the alien that takes down the last standing marine whether by fade/onos/lerk/skulk or gorge or a gorge offense chamber.And yes I have to agree partly on that the game is won if the last skulk or alien that takes out the ip and all the mariens r dead and not respawn fast enough.So I'm 50/50 on this.
You really havnt got the spirit of NS ...
1. If you cant kill skulks, go practise - its not impossible to defend yourselves against them
2. Leaving unprotected TFs out in the middle of nowhere SHOULDNT be possible - Mine, electrify or Turret
3. F4 when you are about to loose is just plain lame...its very frustrating as an alien when the marines dont loose, just leave, after you played well
To adress the issue:
I dont think it should be possible to sit around in the enemy base for very long...if you couldnt really get in and stay in for long the spawncamping would be solved, but killing the hive is still possible...
I am thinking something in the line of what happens when all hives die in public...maybe also in marine bases. The thing that makes marine spawncampers so much worse is that they can sit down and aim, skulks cant do that. Skulks have no chance against LMGs with no carpace or surprise at all...Marines could at least shoot the damn alien instantly when he spawns...
1. If a few marines can make it all the way to your hive then you probably are gonna lose anyways.
2. Spawncamping isn't used to "rack up kills" as many of you think, but it also allows the marines to expand to the rest of the map while a marine or two are keeping the aliens contained.
Most spawncampers know that theres no way in hell they can take down the hive with their lmg, so they'll act in the benefit of the team and keep them contained. So after spawncamping there are two things that can happen, either the skulks kill the marine eventually or the skulks do not kill the marine the the rest of the team moves in and kills the hive.
Also the aliens have an advantage that the marines don't have, spawning in random spots, so the aliens have a pretty decent chance of countering. If the aliens only spawned in one spot the whole time, this tactic would be overpowering.
You could have spent some extra money on an extra offense chamber to defense chamber in your hive to help against marines that walk in, but you didn't and you know why? Because you told yourself "if any marine gets in here, he wont be able to kill any of us because it'll be spawn camping and he'll get banned by the admin". How convenient.
I play as aliens quite often, and when I get spawn camped on, I recognize that we as a team made a mistake. We let the marine(s) get in the position they're in. Now we pay the price. So be it.
In both of those hives I've had a game where after one or two failures, the spawncamper has "Succeded" by which i mean: he has got himself into a decent position, noticed by the commander and with most of the aliens dead at the time (after a rush on another hive) and he has won the game singlehandedly. I'm a decent skulk by any standards, and there were at least 2 other very good skulks on my team at the time, but think about it, any marine with lev1 ammo and the comm watching should be able to take down 1 skulk in a room like via or refinery every ten seconds. not even hard really. we were pinned, a few people accused him of hacking, though he obviously wasn't, half our team quit, and the other half simply stayed to die until the game was over when the rest of his team turned up with some hmgs and a gl.
there was literally nothing you could do, although you'll obviously have to take my word for that, i can tell you it was true.
incidentally, the problem with the guy in refinery was that he'd killed our def chambs inbetween killing us, and he was a true expert at strafe jumping. meaning that as soon as you spawned he'd bounce away across the floor still facing you, pretty much as fast as you could close on him. which is where i get one of my big problems with the physics exploits in ns.
sigh
You really havnt got the spirit of NS ...
1. If you cant kill skulks, go practise - its not impossible to defend yourselves against them
2. Leaving unprotected TFs out in the middle of nowhere SHOULDNT be possible - Mine, electrify or Turret
3. F4 when you are about to loose is just plain lame...its very frustrating as an alien when the marines dont loose, just leave, after you played well
To adress the issue:
I dont think it should be possible to sit around in the enemy base for very long...if you couldnt really get in and stay in for long the spawncamping would be solved, but killing the hive is still possible...
I am thinking something in the line of what happens when all hives die in public...maybe also in marine bases. The thing that makes marine spawncampers so much worse is that they can sit down and aim, skulks cant do that. Skulks have no chance against LMGs with no carpace or surprise at all...Marines could at least shoot the damn alien instantly when he spawns... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do you mean, shouldn't be possible?
That would detract from the tactical and strategic value of the game, and enormously.
You think in real life, an entire military, however humongous, can be applied all at once to some area? You think a military can be everywhere at once? Granted some types of armies are more mobile than others, with regards to Natural Selection, aliens faster than marines, but it is already so and if some brilliant commander can outsmart the aliens and the aliens are too foolish or are truly entangled in an epic battle than the commander deserves props the tfac / buildings deserve to live etc
Should it take brilliance, or merely competence? I don't know. Can Natural Selection support an evolution of gameplay and consequently tactics the same way real life does? That seems to be more in the future - but imagine that TSA gets better weapons or the humans erupt into civil war or aliens really evolve etc
People have learned the game. Consequently, they fight (play) differently.
If a lone marine has manage to run through a map and has reached the alien hive untouched then i think it's only right that he camps the spawn and kills all spawning aliens. it slows the alien expansion and gives a big relief to the marine spawn which is normally be attacked by all the skulks in the game.
On almost all games that i have played in the 9 months of playing NS, ALL the skulks rush from the hive to the marine start with the execption of the skulk that is going to be the gorge and he runs to the next hive/ RT. If you are going to leave your home unprotected then you deserve to be spawn killed if a marine gets there.
Remember guys...protect your HIVE/ HOME aswell as killing the inturders..........It only takes 1 skulk!
Helps your team expand
Slows the enemy team
Its fun
Bad:
Makes it so you win by default(enemy goes to rr)
Makes people angry(so what get over it)
Ugly:
Gets you kicked/banned by loser admins(yes I am talking to you)
A bit cheap(not a lot)
I mean DEAL WITH IT. Its a good tactic if you can pull it off.
The only problem with it is the drop as Kharaa when you spawn so you can't move.
Spawncamping is useful in containing marines/aliens, forcing them to pull back and stop trying to expand, force assault units back to defensive positions. I've spawncamped as a skulk with 8 hp because I didn't want to die when the commander decides he wants to come out and pop me, so I killed any spawning marines (and succeeded, the first few times).
Some of you guys don't seem to know how to combat spawncamping. Spawncampers rely on standing targets. If you like to stand still for about 2 seconds, and then start moving, then you're a target. It doesn't matter where you are, 2 seconds is more than enough time for any decent player to site you and frag you. Whenever I am being spawncamped (as marines or especially as a skulk), I start holding my strafe and move keys the second I see a "rein" on my score tab. I don't let go till I'm safe or dead. It works about 60% of the time, which is 40% more efficient than whining about it.
Closing thought: If you can't handle spawncamping, play on a server that doesn't allow it. Don't whine because you can't play the game creatively (it takes creativity to sneak into a hive and spawncamp, as well as the marine start). I'm sorry I had to post this, but I've really noticed an increase in the "whine" posts these days. I think the tourists are getting impatient for their 1.1, and it's really hurting the forums.
[edit] and F4'ing isn't lame! If you're too immature to deal with people giving up, then you're too immature to play any kind of RTS. I guarantee there is not a single person who plays an online RTS who hasn't had someone surrender/give up on them when they knew they had lost the game. It's not always fun to lose, and sometimes there is a good reason to just f4. "look at me! I"m a sole marine hiding somewhere" "haha, u skulzkser cant fined mee!" "I'm such a luzer" *F4* gg, jerkwad. I'll admit, sometimes it's funny, and helps relieve the stress of a hard game, but if you've been playing a map for 5 minutes, there's no reason for joe Rambo to prolong the game even more.
<b>Summary:</b> Some people need to grow up. This isn't Utopia, dirty tactics work, and flowers don't always smell nice. [/edit]
[edit] I just read about the new "Res for Kills" program, where you turn in your guns for money.. wait, wrong deal. Where you get resources rewarded for kills. Now some form of anti-camping countermeasures are also being enacted to prevent the marines from not only holding a tactical advantage, but a monetary one as well. Cute idea, hope the balance tweaking works out alright. [/edit]
Also, if I'm comm and we have 2 hives lockdown and 2 res nodes with no possibility of aliens making a breakthrough, and I see the aliens F4, I'm happy. They are saving both teams alot of meaningless time it would take for a tech up and assault. F4ing, or giving up as it should be called is perfectly legit under any circumstances should be legit, but for some reason the mentality of this community is that its an evil evil thing.
Edit: OK I was a little hasty in typing this, but for the most part I think F4ing is legit. F4ing right after you lose a gorge is not though, because if that happens every game will be a marine victory. F4ing when you either get bored or know you have no chance of winning is fine by me though.