The Real Reason Defence Chambers Are Used First
DarkFrost
Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15154Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Sad But True.</div> This is basically because people like to rush endlesly and carapace helps them do this, the concept of taking back ground the marines have taken, it is over used and boring <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Here is a radical concept for you mono thinkers out there, dont let them take it in the first place.
Let me set the scene, ns_nothing, starting hive viaduct. experiance tells the aliens the marines first move will be cargo hive, so 5 of 6 of us move there the 6th becomes the gorge. we hold the ground at cargo, denying it to the marines, 2 of us then move to quad lift. A twist of fate has 4 of us on the team with open minds about upgrades, and when the gorge puts sensory down we didnt quarrel too much. the other 2 did. us 3 at cargo all took cloak, and took up positions close to eachother near "the threash hold" 4 marines come round the corner and we easily take care of them. With the ability to surprise them due to our partial invisibility and the conditions in that room. Now a quote from the marine team "LOL you have sensory we are going to own you so easily".
After 7 or 8 failed attempts to take Cargo from us the marines gave up on that hive, but the gorge had secured Via very well and was on his way to Cargo, After he put the hive up he was kind enough (for all the abuse he got of them) the appease the two disbelievers and put down defence chambers.
Even with thier apparent hatred for sensory the other two skulks kepts powersilo free using the same tactic we did in cargo, and the third hive wasnt far behind the second.
This was just one instance, ive seen it many times and it sometimes fails and sometimes works, it all depends on the team.
Here is a radical concept for you mono thinkers out there, dont let them take it in the first place.
Let me set the scene, ns_nothing, starting hive viaduct. experiance tells the aliens the marines first move will be cargo hive, so 5 of 6 of us move there the 6th becomes the gorge. we hold the ground at cargo, denying it to the marines, 2 of us then move to quad lift. A twist of fate has 4 of us on the team with open minds about upgrades, and when the gorge puts sensory down we didnt quarrel too much. the other 2 did. us 3 at cargo all took cloak, and took up positions close to eachother near "the threash hold" 4 marines come round the corner and we easily take care of them. With the ability to surprise them due to our partial invisibility and the conditions in that room. Now a quote from the marine team "LOL you have sensory we are going to own you so easily".
After 7 or 8 failed attempts to take Cargo from us the marines gave up on that hive, but the gorge had secured Via very well and was on his way to Cargo, After he put the hive up he was kind enough (for all the abuse he got of them) the appease the two disbelievers and put down defence chambers.
Even with thier apparent hatred for sensory the other two skulks kepts powersilo free using the same tactic we did in cargo, and the third hive wasnt far behind the second.
This was just one instance, ive seen it many times and it sometimes fails and sometimes works, it all depends on the team.
Comments
If the marine team tried to take over viaduct by building turrets instead of doing pointless rushes at cargo bay, cloacking would be useless. Carapace wouldn't. And carapace wouldn't be useless to defend cargo or power silo either.
Edit: Besides, if the marines instead of holding a hive opted to do a tech rush and grab all the rts they could, cloacking wouldn't do any good because you can't kill rts and stay cloacked. It all depends on the skill of the aliens and the skill of the marines.
A) Hunting weak marines or marines in general
B) Being able to set up very good ambushes.
C) People with enough patience and expertise to use the skills effectively.
In NS people hate sensory because:
1a- Its borring; the only good thing [1.04] is cloaking, and you have to stay still to use it.
2a- W/o defence a failed ambush is just as bad, if not worse than a failed assualt
3a- with [1a] and [2a] in mind it seems like a waste of time
What the players like:
1b- Excitment. Nothing like rushing in and getting that adrenaline rush. You are continually on the move
2b- The ability to take hits and keep going. Defence does this well; sensory does not.
3b- with [1b] and [2b] in mind, it seems far more fun than sitting in a corner of a room with cloaking on just waiting for that marine that never comes.
soooo... thats why i think people use defence; 1b, 2b, and 3b are about 80% of the NS population, 19% just dont care, and there is a 1% chance of error. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> (its not 100%, its 99%... which is the majority of people that dislike the 1.04 sensory.)
It would be one thing if cloaking was this incredibly great skill that made defending an area almost effortless. And for taking out lone marines, it's probably unsurpassed. The bad news is that any competent marine team will travel in groups and keep decent spacing. Factor in motion tracking and scanner sweeps, and you'll find sensory to provide much less benefit than defense or even movement.
With lvl 3 cara the bullets required to kill a skulk jumps up from 9 to 19 (LMG bullets, of course)
With lvl 3 cara the bullets required to kill a lerk jumps up a whopping 21 bullets from 9 to 30 (LMG)
on top of that , redemtion for a gorge is great. It's not that people are scared, it's that people know what is the best to use. I was once in my server once, and a guy built a TF in base instead of getting tech. He said "God, you clanners hate trying ANYTHING new". Which isn't true. Defense is chosen because it's the best, not because people are afraid.
Granted, against a group of newbie marines with terrible aim, sensory and movements are great fun. But if you're playing in any decent pub server, the marines will own skulks without cara.
Try an adrenaline lerk or a carapace lerk, and tell me which is easier to kill with <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Additionally defence chambers themselves are far and away more useful than sensory or movement chambers. Movement chambers are useless when you only have one hive and while I can see how sensory's "enemy approaching" warning could be useful it is far too limited to really make that big of a difference. Defence chambers on the other hand are very useful. A couple under your hive and it will be able to survive a rush far longer and if you succesfully stop the rush it allows the hive to heal up before the next rush begins. If you put a couple under a hive going up it greatly improves that hives chances of getting up instead of being taken down by a lmg who stumbled across it. And finally you have the feared wall of lame which can be instrumental in stopping marines while hive number two is going up.
Do I think that the only way to go is defence first? No. A skilled group of Kharaa can win with movement first just as frequently as defence. But it places a much larger burden on the team in terms of hive defence (see above). I've been on teams that won with sensory first, but everytime it was either against a weak(er) marine team, or we were able to get a second hive up very quickly giving us another chamber.
I don't think it's fair to sell other players short because they want defence first.
**Edited Because their != there**
***Edited again because I deleted too much with the last edit <sigh>**
Plus to all those other ones, D chambers are actually useful to other structures. They don't only heal you, they heal the hive, so the gorg doesn't have to stand there 24/7 healing the hive. D chambers also heal the O chambers set up, and everyone doesn't like a O chamber with 65% health, they always want it at 100%. It just makes us feel better!!
-=- DSS -=-
"I LIKE THIS ICON"
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
carapace versus cloak is not the argument. im sure def is used first because of the healing capabilities versus the parasiting capabilities. i would rather have healing at a forward location for the first ten minutes than anything else...
but sensory is so much more fun! we had a blast jsut the other day by hiding from the marines then biting them and hiding again and whatnot.
DOD players, those guys can sit in one spot camping/sniping for hours...
Oh and I also forgot to add that when you get sensory first your fades will either have no carapace or no adren, gg.
res for 3 sens or mov = 42 res
res for 6-10 def chambers = 140 res (3 for hive + various scattered ones next to OC's)
we would have had enough for a hive by then
Give me the IP to that server now or else I will kill you.
but i do dissagree with its versatility... carapace will help other strategies but in truth it only helps the players live longer it does not DIRECTLY affect other strategies or create any...
My review of usefullness with one hive...
++* Carapace... you live longer, fight longer, kill more.
+- Regeneration... not many people use anyways becasue Cara is used more often... if only regen was a little faster so that running away can actually save you.
-- Redemption... will easily keep you alive... but it takes you out of the fight soo fast that you can not be effective.
#**+++ D chambers also heal other buildings and players... makes maintinance for gorge ALOT easier. but with the 1.1 plan for building self regeneration it will be less usefull.
Sensory
+- Cloaking... so its good for ambushing? well not that many people are that pacient or that skilled at this technique... whould requier lots of practice
+- Scent of fear... you know where the mariens are... kill them... but arent mariens usually only hurt after a battle and you are dead?
-- Enhances sight... Can anneyone say GAMMA SETTINGS? not so usefull
#+-- you can place sensorys to detect marien movement and come face to face with assualting mariens but sensory doesn't tell you which chamber is detecting mariens... does it??? also most mariens will attack any alien building... therefore if you put an offence chamber in place of a sensory it will be able to warn the karaa of incoming mariens anyways
Movement
+- Celerity... can be good if you know how to use your quickness... you need to learn to dodge well to make use of this
+- Silence... stealth is a hard thing... you not only must be silent but be unseen. Gamma maxing makes it near impossible for beeing unseen. maybe good with cloaking... but you need 2 hives for both
+- Adrenaline... Good for higher level creatures... skuls can hardly use up thier energy in a single battle. leave it for hive 2
#+-- lets you warp from hive to hive... but if you only have 1 hive... whats the purose?
carapace, cloaking, celerity, and silence can be usefull with 1 hive aliens... but the easiest ablility to draw FULL ADVANTAGE from is CARAPACE... no special strategies is needed to obtain the full benefiets of carapace (at least i don't think so)... carapace makes attaing more effective without any change in skill or strategie... but other abilities requier a more skill and strategy... maybe thats why games that seriously start with sensory always have the aliens win... because the aliens are skilled enouff to use the sensory's or movement's ability... they must be very good players.
the chambers just have not been well balanced... it surely will get fixed in 1.1 and THEN WE WILL SEE
*(+-) my rating on the abilities
**(#) what do you think it stands for... chamber abilities...
1.1 will create entirely new circumstances.
<img src='http://images.deviantart.com/large/icon/emoticons/Matrix_emoticon_II.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
.. flies over the offence chambers
the concept of taking back ground the marines have taken, it is over used and boring <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->.
dont let them take it in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
.. hmmm.. but you can't just write-off an area. Can't be like: "Damn they're in triad...lets wait to ambush them at Eclipse". Dont' give them an inch of breathing space.
You say, "rt Triad" and you swarm the place with whoever is near you. Every tick the rines have an RT is a strike against you. And watching 3 hive locations, not to mention all the RTs on the map will put a serious strain on your cloaked, camping, unarmored skulks. You can't watch everything, so you'll have to take the offensive sometime.
Its nice to change to amush tactics sometimes though.. just cause is so satisfying <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Example of misguidedness:
On <u>defence</u> at marine start.
Alien:Bloody camping marine, come out of your base and face me.
Comm:I told him to defend the base.
Its like so much in the HL comunity now. Its a shame that a comunity that started a really nice place to go became all, n00b, camp0r and h4x0r calling zone of no go for other games comunities to even look at.
But anyway back on topic, Yes carapace is the CS players dream, But any off you play TFC? 8 player teams, fast paced, YET as it is justnow, the only way to get the same kind of teamwork that is in TFC (for kharaa anyway) is to take other chambers, TFC was always 4 on Defence (the so called campers now, OMG WHAT HAS CS DONT TO MY LOVELY TFC!!!!) and 4 on offence.
Now although (ironically) defence chambers help the offensive, it is not the best for defending (in my opinion) I know how much skill it takes to rush, its easy and a good way to get kills, but why? If you are on a servers with me, you will see, untill about 5 minutes into the game i have still got very low kills, why, because my early game is spent parasiting, I rarely die in a game (this is before any upgrades), and once the team has 4 RTs i Lerk (i realise lerk is at its best with carapace) and defend the primary hive, ultimately gaining more kills than Joe Rusher. BUT the game isnt about kills its about teamwork.
I however played defence in TFC, and it carries thro to NS. As a defence player i would prefer Sensory, as it is the ultimate defence chamber.
People complain that if you take sensory first then the fades (bless them) dont get cara/adren... ok, on the second hive put up defence, take carapace, and then venture in to the territory that is "Scent of Fear". If i had to say what the majority of people use in a game id say 50/50 cara, regen, majority adrenaline and just because its there cloak, have you noticed when people ask for the chambers they are nolonger defence, movement and sensory, they are carapace, adrenaline and cloak. lol (this may be a regional thing mind you)
It doubles the amount of bullets you can take. If uncarapaced skulks could take say, 11 shots, an carapaced skulks, say, 17, I think that would be much better.
Plus sensory is effectively made worthless by bullet spraying and MT <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
all of the official ns maps are crammed full of great places to wait in ambush, where the marine can't see you without at least moving close to you. so it is very easy to accomplish the effect of cloaking by simply walking up to the ceiling, or sitting around a corner. although cloaking is a little bit better because it allows you to be out of sight in spots the marines aren't used to checking.
carapace on the other hand... you cannot outsmart a bullet, no amount of experience or planning can replace having more than double the ability to absorb damage.
now consider the chambers themselves.
the sensory chambers "enemy approaches" feature is nearly worthless, although if they are placed well they can alert aliens that they have failed keep marines out of a key area.
the sensory chamber parasites marines that TOUCH it, this ability is entirely worthless, if the marine is touching your sensory chamber, you dont need him parasited because he is in your base killing your structures.
defense chambers on the other hand, play an active role in helping secure an area. if you survive the battle, you will begin the next one at full strength, and the defense chambers can even help during actual combat. a skulk with carapace and several d chambers to heal him, can easily hold off or kill several marines.
cloaking is alot of fun, but there really is no comparison between defense and sensory as far as combat effectiveness and controlling the map.
BTW: building something other than D first will completely through off a good alien team (since it's engrained in our heads, D>M>S), and anything outside of D>M>S might have trouble with jp/hmg'ers.
After played a few rounds using dtowers as first trye using another chamber. the marines will be expecting dtowers again and will ajust tatics accodenly
plus getting sens either throws movement or defence back to 3 hives so your fades are either gonna die quick or not be effective.