1.1 In The Pub

rofishrofish Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16872Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Clans are nice, but what about the rest?</div> I stopped playing NS for two reasons, one is that it's imbalanced and quite buggy. A lot of what I've seen in 1.1 is great, and should fix that. Another reason is the loss of 'good' pubs. I play in the pubs because I don't have the time to join a clan, and do all of that fun stuff. I wish I could, but I can't. I used to play a lot on Pancho's Tavern, and it suddenly disappeared one day. Up and gone, nowhere to be found. After that, I really couldn't find one 'good' pub. They had major team imbalances, especially with one good team overpowering one n00b team. My question is, what are you going to do for us pubbers in 1.1? It's nice that you guys clan match, but all that's allowed to play 1.1 is the top people in the top clans, so it's pretty much good vs. good. How are you going to make it fit that a n00b team, especially with a n00b gorge/comm, can still have a chance?

P.S. Giving the location for the comm in 1.1j is VERY nice. I hate it when people say gimme health and I have no clue where they are.

Comments

  • Jabba_The_HuntJabba_The_Hunt Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11850Members
    a n00b team shouldn't be able to beat an experienced team, balancing means making sure the teams are equal, IE one team doesnt have a default advantage over the others, the skill of players can not/should not be taken into account.
  • criticaIcriticaI Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15269Banned, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--ROFISH+May 30 2003, 03:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ROFISH @ May 30 2003, 03:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I stopped playing NS for two reasons, one is that it's imbalanced and quite buggy. A lot of what I've seen in 1.1 is great, and should fix that. Another reason is the loss of 'good' pubs. I play in the pubs because I don't have the time to join a clan, and do all of that fun stuff. I wish I could, but I can't. I used to play a lot on Pancho's Tavern, and it suddenly disappeared one day. Up and gone, nowhere to be found. After that, I really couldn't find one 'good' pub. They had major team imbalances, especially with one good team overpowering one n00b team. My question is, what are you going to do for us pubbers in 1.1? It's nice that you guys clan match, but all that's allowed to play 1.1 is the top people in the top clans, so it's pretty much good vs. good. How are you going to make it fit that a n00b team, especially with a n00b gorge/comm, can still have a chance?

    P.S. Giving the location for the comm in 1.1j is VERY nice. I hate it when people say gimme health and I have no clue where they are. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Dude... if a game is balanced, n00b teams are going to loose. Thats HOW ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. Thats like asking the creaters of Starcraft:
    "I just bought the game and I went online and played a game against an experienced opponent and got my **** kicked. WTH, you need to fix it so that I, as a new player, has a chance against more experienced players."

    Umm.. no... Your reasoning is horrible dude.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    Stop complaining... Just find another good server and play there.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Well, there are ways.

    For one, the commander gets lots of 'comfort' functionality to make his job easier, which should ease the load for newbies. Gorges aren't as important as they used to be, an alien team with a single bad lvl2 is thus not as doomed anymore.
    Aside from that, there's still this group of medium sized screw-ups called 'Playtesters' who are, despite constant hammering from the vets (<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) trying to make the pubbers voice heard.
    I guess you'll experience a more balanced pubgame, too.
  • rofishrofish Join Date: 2003-05-30 Member: 16872Members
    edited May 2003
    Maybe the above seems too much of a whine, so lemme rephrase it. Pubs just aren't what they used to be anymore. Most used to be fun, and now it's stacking the good players on one side and not playing NS, but more 'crush-the-n00b'.
  • FireStormFireStorm Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7390Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--ROFISH+May 30 2003, 09:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (ROFISH @ May 30 2003, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Maybe the above seems too much of a whine, so lemme rephrase it. Pubs just aren't what they used to be anymore. Most used to be fun, and now it's stacking the good players on one side and not playing NS, but more 'crush-the-n00b'. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's why I said you just have to find a better pub <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • clamatiusclamatius Join Date: 2003-03-27 Member: 14948Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How are you going to make it fit that a n00b team, especially with a n00b gorge/comm, can still have a chance?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This is a difficult problem, not just for NS, but for game design in general. I'd rephrase the real problem as:

    How are you going to make it so that n00b players can still have fun playing?

    In card and board game design, the usual way you approach this problem is by varying the amount of luck in the game and making the learning curve shallower. In chess, I'm never going to beat a grandmaster, but a beginner doesn't have a prayer against me either. This is because chess has a very small amount of luck (it still has a little - you can make the right move for the wrong reasons). Note that chess has an easy learning curve - 5 year olds can easily learn how to play - but the amount of luck is too low to help new players out against experienced players. However, in a game like Sorry, children have at least some chance of beating me because luck will outweigh strategy for the most part. In NS, luck plays some part, but FPS skill along with some teamwork are currently the main determining factors of a team's chances. Increasing the amount of luck in the game doesn't look like a really viable strategy to me. One example of increasing luck in the game would be to make weapons less accurate, so a given bullet/acid bag/bite/whatever has less chance of hitting. I don't think this is necessarily the way the game should go. Some people would argue that taking out bunnyhopping is a move towards +luck, but I think that is primarily a flavour decision more than anything else.

    When I've been playing in v1.04, I've found that new players do not contribute significantly to your chances of winning unless they have previous FPS multiplayer experience - in other words, if you were playing with a newbie on your team, your chances of winning are roughly the same with or without them. In 1.1j, I would guess that the team's chances may actually be <b>worse</b> with the newbie on your team for marines, since they will provide resources for the aliens.

    So, making the learning curve shallower would probably be the best way of approaching the problem, so that newbies become intermediate players faster. Some ways of achieving this:

    <ul>
    <li> Improve in-game "tooltips" and help text. Never rely on a manual, because 95% of players will not read it. The text in 1.04 is not good (e.g. enouraging new alien players to evolve to gorge) but I understand from talking to Flayra at GDC that it was already improved.
    <li> Keep game design simple and intuitive. For the most part, Flayra has done an amazing job of doing this already given the inherent complexity of a FPS/RTS hybrid game. About all you can do here is to make sure that any complexity (e.g. requirements on the tech tree) is easily understood by a new player.
    <li> Watch new players playing and see what mistakes they make. For example, a lot of new players won't even know how to talk to people on their team when they start playing, and will wander off on their own.
    <li> Make sure that players can contribute to their team's efforts without diverting team resources to them. This can be addressed (for example) by making sure that all-team upgrades, like the arms lab upgrades, remain solid strategies compared with spot upgrades like dropping a HMG. The changes in 1.1 for the alien team where res is not shared between the aliens should help a lot on this point.
    </ul>

    This is really just touching the surface of ways of helping new players out, but you get the idea. If Flayra reads this, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • bigbbigb Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8421Members
    some one say tey needed a good server?
  • BreakfastSausagesBreakfastSausages Join Date: 2002-12-19 Member: 11148Members
    Team stacking is an issue for the players/admins of the server, not the development team.

    there are good servers with fun players, they just don't go out of their way advertising because they are too busy playing.


    I think 1.1 will be much more newbie friendly than 1.04 is, because aliens will be much more well rounded than they are now. if the newbie wants to be a gorge he won't have the whole team screaming that he ruined their chances to win. and he won't have to know what the uber upgrades are, because they will all be decent. marines will be basically the same for a newbie, do what the commander tells you and you might get a cookie (hmg).
  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    I think the devs are going just the right way with balancing. By "altering" the mod so multiple strategies become viable, you automatically create easier game even for the newbies. Maybe we will hear less whining when a newbie puts a TF and sentries in the base instead of giving mines? Or researches HA instead of JP? If all strategies are viable, theres much less chance for the commander/gorge to "fail", since in a perfect game whatever he does has potential of becoming a victorious strategy (the skill comes in noticing this potential and exploiting it: you can't win by just randomly throwing structures around). I bet it will still be possible to do total screw-ups (which paralyze the team and have no future) like building 3 CCs in base or not spending the resources, but overall theres less chance of failing. Of course, a newbie team can never win an experienced one, but it would be good if the newbies weren't totally helpless right from the start...

    On the other hand, it might be that all the future versions will include a "glitch" (like the ones so far have): a super strategy that will dominate the game and will be noticed eventually. Then we're back to start when it comes to viable strategies. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
    The only way to remove these super strategies is to create yet another patch. We'll see what happens with 1.1.
  • ShockehShockeh If a packet drops on the web and nobody&#39;s near to see it... Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Just for the record.

    clamatius, one of the most interesting posts for a while, and I wholeheartedly agree. WP.
  • ZelZel Join Date: 2003-01-27 Member: 12861Members
    make the game more fun without winning?

    that debate is all in your head. i could convince you that i kno how to have fun staring at walls too, and i can. so screw you small minded.... omg im sorry, im rambling, nevermind.
  • MausMaus Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5599Members
    edited May 2003
    Newbies playing important roles isn't not a problem that's exclusive to NS, you know. Nor is it an insurmountable one.

    How about having an inexperienced sniper or MGer in DoD, or having a new player in CS who's been given the bomb, or is playing the VIP? Both happen reasonably often in pubs, and they don't ruin things.
  • xioutlawixxioutlawix Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7118Members, Constellation
    Very well thought out clamatius, all excellent points, I agree in its entirety.
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    If you want a better game, better than the average pub, but are unable to join a clan -- I highly suggest you find a server that requires Cheating Death. CD is a anti-hacking program, and if someone has the intelligence to download it, then turn it on while playing on the server - they probably are not fools/lamers -- they are probably good players with good strats that make NS fun. That's what I do when not playing with my clan.
  • NetBentNetBent Join Date: 2003-05-16 Member: 16386Members
    Poncho's tavern should be back online soon enough.

    www.ponchostavern.com
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SentrySteve+May 30 2003, 07:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ May 30 2003, 07:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want a better game, better than the average pub, but are unable to join a clan -- I highly suggest you find a server that requires Cheating Death. CD is a anti-hacking program, and if someone has the intelligence to download it, then turn it on while playing on the server - they probably are not fools/lamers -- they are probably good players with good strats that make NS fun. That's what I do when not playing with my clan. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Just because they can download a program doesn't mean they aren't lamer... and because they can download a program means they are not a fool? Personally I think hackers are fools, and they download the hack. You also say that because they download a program means they are decent players?
  • SentrySteveSentrySteve .txt Join Date: 2002-03-09 Member: 290Members, Constellation
    edited May 2003
    Yes Skillz - does a newbie want to download some program so they just play on one server? No. Who does? People who have some intelligence. Now of course because they have CD does not mean they are the worlds best teamplayer, or not a lamer -- but it does greatly reduce the chance. I've been playing on a CD-required server for the past three days and just about every game is like an orginaized scrim -- even on 1.04, where the marines can rush JPs/HMGs it is a *blast* to play on becuase the aliens can counter this with base rushs/etc -- like a clan would.
  • hunter_huntedhunter_hunted Join Date: 2002-12-22 Member: 11338Members
    Many people in this topic are talking about a good vs nub team but what about a match where both teams have a majority of newish players? In 1.04 the feeling I've seen is that marines win most of the time, and by watching some clan match demos I can see why but that's at the top end of NS players, like the 1.1 playtesting. The servers I play on, the aliens win most of the time not because they are nessacarily (sp?) better but because being a gorge is easier than being a commander (you don't *have* to give out orders as a gorge to get things done) Of course neither side will get much done if every player just joined the game but that's why I said newish players <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->

    That is just a 1.04 example but what I'm asking is will 1.1 work as evenly if both teams aren't full of top-notch players?

    BTW I'm not complaining about the 1.1 style of playtesting, just asking a question
  • XCanXCan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5904Members, Constellation
    WHy not only make a server_variable for forcing random teams? I know there are external plugins for it, and as far as I feel those server with the plugin usually have much fairer pub games.
  • BogglesteinskyBogglesteinsky Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11488Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SentrySteve+May 30 2003, 07:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ May 30 2003, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes Skillz - does a newbie want to download some program so they just play on one server? No. Who does? People who have some intelligence. Now of course because they have CD does not mean they are the worlds best teamplayer, or not a lamer -- but it does greatly reduce the chance. I've been playing on a CD-required server for the past three days and just about every game is like an orginaized scrim -- even on 1.04, where the marines can rush JPs/HMGs it is a *blast* to play on becuase the aliens can counter this with base rushs/etc -- like a clan would. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    hes got a point.

    CD req servers are usually better than the average pub
  • criticaIcriticaI Join Date: 2003-04-07 Member: 15269Banned, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--XCan+May 31 2003, 04:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (XCan @ May 31 2003, 04:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> WHy not only make a server_variable for forcing random teams? I know there are external plugins for it, and as far as I feel those server with the plugin usually have much fairer pub games. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or instead of programming server variables he could just program content. Flayra has stated he doesn't like too many server variables because he wants the game to be as uniform as possible across the whole spectrum of servers. This is to make the game more newbie friendly.
    If you want extras, thats where admin/meta mod comes in. Or you could just become good friends with voogru and maybe he'll program whatever you desire as a plugin.
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