Long Games = Bad?
Red_Wizard
Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16241Members
Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16241Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Am I the only one who enjoys them?</div> Before all you pesky server admins start jumping down my throat here, at least hear me out. I've been playing NS for a bit of time now, and I must say that v1.1 is bringing some welcome changes and some I'm not too happy about. The biggest complaint I have is the 'shortening of matches'.
I play exclusively on Pub servers (mainly because I'm not really that good), so I don't have much to say about how clan matches go. I've played a few games where some clan goes and all joins one team or the other, rushes the other side, and finishes the game in under five minutes. I don't know about you all, but I <i>really</i> don't find that fun at <u>all</u>. Whenever I logon to play a game of NS I fully expect it to be an epic battle between Aliens and Marines with tactical successes and devestating failures. I <i>want</i> to have squads move out to capture a hive, only to be demolished by a clever skulk ambush; and I <i>want</i> to have an almost-assured alien win turned around by a small group of marines' clever movements. These are the sorts of things I play for. If I wanted a quick-deathmatchy game I'd just skin Frontiersman and Kharaa onto CS or what have you.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>[***I'm afraid I get a little off-topic about 1/3 of the way into this paragraph. I'm sorry, but it's just a rant I had to get off my chest. Feel free to ignore the remainder of this post.]</span></span>
I'm sure many of you have played hours long matches before. Now, look back on those matches and seriously tell me that you did not have more fun in those battles than one of those quickie JP-rush jobs. Tell me. Perhaps I'm in a vast minority of players. Perhaps it's just something that we Pub players experiece. Though, all of you ask yourselves something: is this game really about private clans and their enjoyment of the game, or is this about <u>everyone</u> enjoying this great mod and all the innovation it brings? I'm sure that the developers have been working with various clans very closely in the development of v1.1. The only problem I have with this is that these people are the best of the best, who play on servers with the other bests of bests. What about the rest? Has anyone actually looked at how these things will affect the "common man's" servers and gameplay?
I mean, sure there's a problem if in your standard clanmatch Marines win 75% of all their games, but what about the public servers where they win 45-50% of the time? If a Marine nerf ends up balancing the clanplay, what sort of changes would it bring to the public servers? I know this sounds a little ranty, but the game as I've played it seems fairly balanced, with the occasional exceptions of the Fades and Jetpacks.
Well, if you heard me out this long, thank you. It's all that I ever ask for whenever I do such a thing. Just so long as someone actually read what I've written, I am satisfied.
I play exclusively on Pub servers (mainly because I'm not really that good), so I don't have much to say about how clan matches go. I've played a few games where some clan goes and all joins one team or the other, rushes the other side, and finishes the game in under five minutes. I don't know about you all, but I <i>really</i> don't find that fun at <u>all</u>. Whenever I logon to play a game of NS I fully expect it to be an epic battle between Aliens and Marines with tactical successes and devestating failures. I <i>want</i> to have squads move out to capture a hive, only to be demolished by a clever skulk ambush; and I <i>want</i> to have an almost-assured alien win turned around by a small group of marines' clever movements. These are the sorts of things I play for. If I wanted a quick-deathmatchy game I'd just skin Frontiersman and Kharaa onto CS or what have you.
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>[***I'm afraid I get a little off-topic about 1/3 of the way into this paragraph. I'm sorry, but it's just a rant I had to get off my chest. Feel free to ignore the remainder of this post.]</span></span>
I'm sure many of you have played hours long matches before. Now, look back on those matches and seriously tell me that you did not have more fun in those battles than one of those quickie JP-rush jobs. Tell me. Perhaps I'm in a vast minority of players. Perhaps it's just something that we Pub players experiece. Though, all of you ask yourselves something: is this game really about private clans and their enjoyment of the game, or is this about <u>everyone</u> enjoying this great mod and all the innovation it brings? I'm sure that the developers have been working with various clans very closely in the development of v1.1. The only problem I have with this is that these people are the best of the best, who play on servers with the other bests of bests. What about the rest? Has anyone actually looked at how these things will affect the "common man's" servers and gameplay?
I mean, sure there's a problem if in your standard clanmatch Marines win 75% of all their games, but what about the public servers where they win 45-50% of the time? If a Marine nerf ends up balancing the clanplay, what sort of changes would it bring to the public servers? I know this sounds a little ranty, but the game as I've played it seems fairly balanced, with the occasional exceptions of the Fades and Jetpacks.
Well, if you heard me out this long, thank you. It's all that I ever ask for whenever I do such a thing. Just so long as someone actually read what I've written, I am satisfied.
Comments
oh, and about balance. You shouldn't have a game that is based on noob players. The newer players usually take the tactics they see the better people using. So the thing that eventually balances the game is good players.
2) Perhaps you are right, but then again, you can't have a game based only on the vets, now can you? If you did the learning curve would be so steep all the new players would drop it for something else.
Indeed. I've had some great 15-minute games, and I've had some terrible hour-long ones. I think most people would agree that a "fun round" is one where both sides get plenty of strategic hits in. Marines take this, aliens push back, marines counter with this, aliens attack here, and so on. Games that can be described in one line such as "Marines win with JP/HMG rush in 10 minutes" or "Marines do 2-hive lockdown for 90 minutes" get really boring, really fast. 1.1 is designed to promote more large-scale action between the sides and condense the number of major events into a smaller time frame. The goal is to have a 1.1 short round be just as fun as a 1.04 long round.
IT was NS_rampage, and we relocated to the Vent room near pumping, the aliens weren't able to punch through, and neither were we.
Lemme tell you, it SUCKED
Games should be longer than a skulk/shotty rush and shorter than 30-40 mins <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As mentioned before, it's quality.
You can horribly lose a game, but it could still be a terrific game for both sides.
with the ^nut^ crew the other day went on for nearly 2 hours...
they kept taking out our base..
we sneakily relocated....
all that stuff
Short games are lacking tactical diversity. They are all about tech to this and rush with this. Game over. Sorry but this is no fun (maybe it is fun for one time but then it becomes stale and boring).
As soon as tactics have counter-tactics the game will be long (as long as the other side knows how to counter the tactic). Games with stone-paper-scissors tactics where every team chooses one of those in the beginning and then everything is decided are just boring.
It's something boring when a jetpacker finishes all the hives with one jetpack flight while I'm dead and can't do anything, but In my opinion thats just part of the game.
they kept taking out our base..
we sneakily relocated....
all that stuff<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes i regularly go on the ^NuT^ server and it's always a lot of fun
I don't like short games either. I like big, long, epic battles (in any game, not just NS).
I'm fine with short posts, however, so I'll leave it at that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Let me tell you just one thing, In ultra long matches, NS goes far beyond FPS/RTS and takes on some RPG like qualities (such as players coming, going and returning, etc etc)...
The most important thing is this. At the end of it all, It only felt like 2 hours, I had patches of sweat beneath both my armpits, and the adrenaline was still pumping.
It is the good long matches that I hope will remain in NS, whilst removing the bad long matches (2 hive lockdown) from NS.
Anyway, I think I was told once in the original outcry of the shortening of long mathces that the time cited was only an Average, so long matches will not necessarily be oblitterated, just that the average match time will decrease becuase some of the long boring mathces will be eliminated <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do want to thow something out to you guys. Someone mentioned a 7 hour game that felt like 2 hours. I've had 20 minute games that FELT like 7 hours... not because it was tedious, but because it was THAT INTENSE/THAT MUCH FUN! I'm all for a 20 - 30 minute average, with the ocasional 15 minute game, and the ocasional 2 hour game. What I don't like is the 2hour Marines locked down in a hive *maint in eclipse comes to mind* and the aliens have the other 2, plus marine spawn. In those games, it's spawn, <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> , die for marines. For aliens it's spawn, <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->, die. That's not alot of fun, now is it?
Basically they hade every res node towards there base and noname as well(ill get to that latter <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ). So for a good hour and 30 minutes, we clashed afades,lerks,and gorge spray versus heavy armor marines with shotty's,welders,hmg', & gl's. it took sooo long to kill the marines because they were smart about thier welding.
But a few people who died as fade came back a skulk (obviously) and tried to make a run for the phase gate in messhall...
at that point we had fades on all 4 sides of messhall, and attacked at the same time. Both teams died, from grenades just laying everywhere... but he had 1 guy that did manage to get redemptioned, and blinked like a mad man for marine start.
he managed to put enough pressure to wear we took over marine start.
[Here is the really sad part]... Marines now had 5 ips and double of every structure in no-name <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
and thier commander equiped about 8 of them in nade launchers... i bet you can figure out the rest why it took another hour 30 minutes.
Oh this was a 11 vs 11 game, where both teams were equally skilled. (i know this because we were all regulars <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
fades vs HMGs GLs and HA... its hella fun
but its bad when u lose : /
Pubbers play the game as well. When everything starts out, they're just as good as the clanners. But the clanners play for keeps and develop strategies that are quick, efficient and will tear the heart out of you if you fail to counter them. Pubbers don't like this for the most part so they stay away from clanners for a while. Pubbers play their own game setting their own rules within rules of the game. They set up obstacles for themselves to make the game more "fun" as defined by them. Everyone is happy.
Eventually, some pubbers get their skill up to the clanners level of gameplay, and/or the clanners come and mingle with pubbers. Tactics are suddenly radically altered in terms of gameplay. No longer can one team say something like "No attacking for 5 minutes" or "No attacking till the second hive goes up" because clanners version of "fun" differs from the pubbers. They want to win. Pubbers are upset and therefore must adopt the clanners tactics or spend their time being utterly destroyed. Therefore, clanner play becomes public play. Thus game along the JP/HMG combo, used to almost always win a match. When one person sees it, another will try it because they want to win. And so the vicious cycle begins where everyone must do the same tactic or lose because if they don't, then the other team will have time for expansion which gives them a chance at winning, which, face it if you play the game, you don't want to give the other team a chance to win.
In very simple terms, eventually, everyone pubbing COULD play as good as clanner and clanners will also pub. Therefore, gameplay must be balanced in clan play FIRST because they use the hardcore tactics required to win win win, while pubbers most often do not. If Flayra balances the game for clan play without giving either side an advantage he will be happy. If the game is balanced in clan play but not public he won't be AS happy but still might release it, based on the simple facts I stated above.
If you did not understand this, or did not read the whole post, please do not post a reply that will make me repeat myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I'll be glad to answer your questions but not feed your laziness. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I dislike shot games where u rush there base at start and whip them out.
I don't mind losing a game if we put up a good fight. i tend to avoid humans tho case when i play i allways seem to get a comm who doesnt respond to requests. i actualy left a server other day cause i spent 23mins asking him if he wanted this that and the other and he only said 2 words in that time. id walk to a good section of map and say want a Turret Fact here ? he wouldnt even say no. then id move on after 5mins and end up at a uncapped res point. so id ask "want to cap this res point ?" of corse no answer. he even at one point waypointed me to a res tower that was capped. i asked why he had brought me here and he didnt reply. i looked at it and it was a little dmged but since he wouldnt give me a welder i couldnt fix it.. lol
Any way back on topic. Long game = good if it not one sided. i hate thoes games where the enmie is crushed and your team just sitting about not finishing them.
Yes, I did read your post. I will freely admit that clans will, and should, have every desire to win matches as quickly and efficiently as possible. That is just how clans work. What I'm trying to say is that clans should not dictate how <u>everyone</u> plays the game. As you said, pubbers will tend to play by their own rules to make games 'fun'. Is it really a clan's right to go into a pub and start telling everyone else how to play? Just because you all enjoy playing one way doesn't mean everyone else has to adapt to your style.
By your argument, pubbers could start playing on clan servers, suggest some pub rules, and end up with a two-hour game that the clan people liked more than the quick wins. After a few weeks, every clan begins adopting these new 'fun' rules, and the public-server type becomes the ruleset of choice. I'm not saying this is feasible, but this is the opposite equivalent to what you're saying.
All I'm trying to say is that sure, clan people can have their way of playing, but there should <u>always</u> be a seperate, less competetive area for the public players. If you don't balance between the two, you'll end up with something like Couter-Strike (too much clan influence) or Earth's Special Forces (just the opposite). Both sides have valid methods of play, but adapting a new version for just one will probably alienate the other.
But if it's filled with constant battle, like insane fight over a corridor etc. First marines take it, aliens retake it.. and so on <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. Those games rock.
Unfortunately, Clanner's don't just go in, and say, "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY, n00b!" If they did, I doubt public play would be influenced by them. However, as Twisted Master pointed out, clanners will ocasionally join pub servers. The only gameplay they know is clan style. So, you get a clanner on a pub, who inevitably ends up comming, and then he uses the only tactics he knows, clan tactics. The pubs will see how effective that is, and that it wins games. What pub player doesn't want to win games? That's why you get pubs WILLINGLY using clan tactics.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All I'm trying to say is that sure, clan people can have their way of playing, but there should <u>always</u> be a seperate, less competetive area for the public players. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, the only way to assure this is to make sure that clanners NEVER play pubs, or that clanners conform exactly to a strict pub play set of rules.. which measn that pub play would need rules.
I think that what flay's doing is right, we balance the game for clan play, but enable it to have a multitude of options for pubs to do whatever they want. I think if anything it should be stressed in pub servers that they should play to play, not to win.
Therefore, the rules change based upon the increase in skill and desire to win. One clanner (skilled persona) will come up with a tactic that is nearly undeaftable and will win the game 90% of the time. If the game is a competition, why would you not use that tactic if none of the other tactics were that certain? The answer is, if you're playing to win, you won't. Winning is a large part of what most people consider "fun". If they play a game and constantly lose...badly...over and and over and over, the game doesn't not hold continuing appeal to a person who's not a masochist.
It's pretty much human nature to want to win, because winning is fun, for me and many many many other people. There's not even a big payoff if you do win, it's not a casino where if you lose 90% of the time it might pay off when you win that 10% of the time. There is no payoff for winning 10% of the time. There's no bonus, no special secrets, no uber buffs, no money falling from the sky. Your 1 out of 10 wins is just as significant as EACH ONE of their 9 out of 10 wins.
Flayra wants to turn this 10% win aliens 90% marines into a 50%, 50% situation.
Back to my main point, you can't completely balance a game for newbies, and still have it balanced for veterans. It's not an RPG. If it was, it would be possible, but it's not. Strategy games and FPS games CANNOT be balanced for the newbie and veteran. It would have to be two seperate games. What your basically trying to say is that you don't want people to use their skill to beat you. You don't want them to use what you consider "lame" tactics, when all they really are, are hard learned tactics that make them win.
However, you may or may not be pleased to know that there are some servers that still have rules like you like to play with. Games within games so to speak. Admins regular these servers for the moment and kick/ban people who do not follow them. You'll have to ask around or find these servers for yourself and they DO exist. I'll warn you, that some of them aren't monitored closely, while others the admins are above their own rules. Therefore, unless you're going to reprogram NS ala a voogru server or plugin mod, I wish you good luck in finding your "personal" version of NS.
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