Anzac
Marine0I
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Where did we go wrong....</div> I noticed on the board that earlier there was a post from an extremely frustrated New Zealand player, who, having played on an Australian servers with a marine team more interested in frags then teamwork, decided to lash out at the Australian NS community in general.
This thread was eventually locked for obvious reasons, and I have no desire to simply restart the nation bashing back up again.
This outburst was not the first of its kind either - many NZ players have expressed their frustration with the apparent proliferation of rambo Australians, and while we all quickly rushed to defend our nation before the thread was locked, I'm still left wondering why so many NZ players hold this opinion of us (yes I am an Australian).
Having given this a minutes thought, I think I might have the reason. First of all, New Zealander's come from a smaller country populationwise, and thus draw from a smaller community to make up their online multiplayer games. While this means not as many people to play against, it does have the advantage of making a small, close-knit community.
This also has the effect of making it appear that the number of antisocial players are somehow less in number than on other countries servers. The larger the population the community draws from, the greater the number of "frustrating" players there will be. As Australia draws from a larger community, we have more bad players that will ruin the game for people.
Now some would argue that while we have more fools, we also have more servers to spread them across, and that we, Australians, seem to have a disproportionate number of antisocial players. And this, I believe, may be the case.
This, I believe, is not due to a critical flaw in the Australian culture, but to a critical flaw in the quality of NZ ISP's. When New Zealander's play online, they have to contend with shocking pings and poor quality servers, and it has been my experience that when people persevere doing something they love in the face of difficulties, they are always the players of the highest quality, the dedicated ones.
The standard antisocial player, imho, is a person with little or no real interest in the game other than the frags. They rarely play the game for periods extending over matters of months. I believe that in NZ the majority of players that would otherwise be spoiling their NS game are "filtered out" if you will by appalling playing conditions. Only the best players truely interested in experiencing all that NS has to offer are willing to play on through the lag.
In Australia, on the other hand, we have have higher quality servers and isps, in addition to a larger playing pool, and the antisocial players have absolutely nothing to discourage them from playing a bit of cs, then switching to jedi knight 2, then finishing it up with ruining our game of NS.
That, I believe, sums up the reasons many NZ players view the Australian gaming community as "waynkers".
On a final note, there is little if no point... actually there is NO point in rehashing the crimes of the Australian gamers. The "but they did this" argument is stupid and counter-productive - if you want proof of this, head over to the Middle East.
I for one would love to play with more New Zealander's, especially if they are as co-operative and team orientated as they claim. Give us Australian's a chance, there are heaps of high quality gamers here who want exactly the same as you do. Although I am all for international rivalry, and despite all the sheep jokes, it seems that many Australians view the NZ players as quite similar to ourselves. The sooner we get together and field an ANZAC team to thoroughly thrash our American friends the better I say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW
Martigen mentioned that there are TWO Australian play testers. If Martigen is the stf // Martigen I think he is then that makes him 1, but who is the other.... Anyone know?
This thread was eventually locked for obvious reasons, and I have no desire to simply restart the nation bashing back up again.
This outburst was not the first of its kind either - many NZ players have expressed their frustration with the apparent proliferation of rambo Australians, and while we all quickly rushed to defend our nation before the thread was locked, I'm still left wondering why so many NZ players hold this opinion of us (yes I am an Australian).
Having given this a minutes thought, I think I might have the reason. First of all, New Zealander's come from a smaller country populationwise, and thus draw from a smaller community to make up their online multiplayer games. While this means not as many people to play against, it does have the advantage of making a small, close-knit community.
This also has the effect of making it appear that the number of antisocial players are somehow less in number than on other countries servers. The larger the population the community draws from, the greater the number of "frustrating" players there will be. As Australia draws from a larger community, we have more bad players that will ruin the game for people.
Now some would argue that while we have more fools, we also have more servers to spread them across, and that we, Australians, seem to have a disproportionate number of antisocial players. And this, I believe, may be the case.
This, I believe, is not due to a critical flaw in the Australian culture, but to a critical flaw in the quality of NZ ISP's. When New Zealander's play online, they have to contend with shocking pings and poor quality servers, and it has been my experience that when people persevere doing something they love in the face of difficulties, they are always the players of the highest quality, the dedicated ones.
The standard antisocial player, imho, is a person with little or no real interest in the game other than the frags. They rarely play the game for periods extending over matters of months. I believe that in NZ the majority of players that would otherwise be spoiling their NS game are "filtered out" if you will by appalling playing conditions. Only the best players truely interested in experiencing all that NS has to offer are willing to play on through the lag.
In Australia, on the other hand, we have have higher quality servers and isps, in addition to a larger playing pool, and the antisocial players have absolutely nothing to discourage them from playing a bit of cs, then switching to jedi knight 2, then finishing it up with ruining our game of NS.
That, I believe, sums up the reasons many NZ players view the Australian gaming community as "waynkers".
On a final note, there is little if no point... actually there is NO point in rehashing the crimes of the Australian gamers. The "but they did this" argument is stupid and counter-productive - if you want proof of this, head over to the Middle East.
I for one would love to play with more New Zealander's, especially if they are as co-operative and team orientated as they claim. Give us Australian's a chance, there are heaps of high quality gamers here who want exactly the same as you do. Although I am all for international rivalry, and despite all the sheep jokes, it seems that many Australians view the NZ players as quite similar to ourselves. The sooner we get together and field an ANZAC team to thoroughly thrash our American friends the better I say <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BTW
Martigen mentioned that there are TWO Australian play testers. If Martigen is the stf // Martigen I think he is then that makes him 1, but who is the other.... Anyone know?
Comments
That said, there might be a few points in your reasoning that needs explaining. For example, the U.S. arguably has the best servers around. On some servres I can average 80 ping. That's good for NS. The U.S. also would have the biggest pool of players to draw from, I think everyone agrees with me on that. Yet, no one makes threads about AMERICA having a disproportionate number of antisocial players. Why is that? Is it only the fact that most of us on the boards are American?
I can see how they come to that conclusion, but I still dont think its fair.
Martigen mentioned that there are TWO Australian play testers. If Martigen is the stf // Martigen I think he is then that makes him 1, but who is the other.... Anyone know? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The other PT is Mouse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Martigen mentioned that there are TWO Australian play testers. If Martigen is the stf // Martigen I think he is then that makes him 1, but who is the other.... Anyone know? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The other Aussie PT would be Mouse.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yet, no one makes threads about AMERICA having a disproportionate number of antisocial players. Why is that? Is it only the fact that most of us on the boards are American? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe it's because America, as arguably the biggest source of gamers, is usually regarded as standard against which others are measured in here.
If I visit n-s.de, whichs community obviously uses Germany as standard, I see a lot of ludicrus US-bashing.
EDIT
... but we digress... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This is not a topic about US and France relations. Taking things off-topic is disrespectful to the original poster. Learn your netiqutte please...
If I, a German, go around calling all American players idiots, I can lead a comfortable life on German servers without being proven wrong once.
Your probably on-track with your deductions there.
Also another thing which contributes is because NZ have a small NS community we dont have many noobs, so noob tolerance isnt very high in our community, a few of our members have raised topics on this before. (one example at <a href='http://www.natural-selection.co.nz/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16' target='_blank'>NSNZ</a>)
its not that we are intolerent of the 'noob' its just that they can get a bit of a hard time. maybe we are just taking things too seriously
i would like to commend marine 01 for his very enlightening post. tho i have personally never thought about it before he has a point.
the question that i end up asking myself is if I could have <b>one</b> thing for our country from a choice of better isp's or to keep our tight-knit bad lag community...
<i><b>would i want quantity or quality?</b></i>
in a similar vien the admins from www.natural-selection.co.nz and from www.ausns.org will be having a friendly match soon. It will be interesting to see how this gets played.
I'm hoping not to see any sheep-shagger calls from either side <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Honestly I can't say I see that many ppl ramboing on the Aussie servers (mind you I pretty much stick to the Gamearena servers so my experiance isn't wide-spread). If I go onto the Optus servers the entire level of playing pluments; I swear only new players populate those servers. At any rate the standard of playing in Gamearena is usually pretty good. Our friends from across the Tasman might wanna stop by there and check it out, you gotta sign up for Cogs first but it's actually rather useful now.
By the way, New Zealand has WORSE ISPS than Australia!? My pity is truely sent out to you. I thought it was impossible to have worse ISPs than Australia. Quick poll: anyone got better than $230/month 16 gig limit 1500kbs?
OMG who the hell would pay that for avg gaming??
i pay $60 10giglimit 128kbs up/down
wat u have there would be some type of 'business' plan here. dont tell me this is normal in australia??
All ADSL of course
EDIT
ARGH once more my thread is hijacked - and once more I'm the main culprit <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
its not that we are intolerent of the 'noob' its just that they can get a bit of a hard time. maybe we are just taking things too seriously
the question that i end up asking myself is if I could have <b>one</b> thing for our country from a choice of better isp's or to keep our tight-knit bad lag community...
<i><b>would i want quantity or quality?</b></i> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Americans have this "competition" thing going. From school up into the job world we are always taught to strive for the best, be the best, so the best.
Practice to be the best to make the sports team.
Get best grades so you can go to a good college.
Do well in college to get the best job over the other applicants.
Do well in the job to get promoted,
etc. Be the best then act like it even if your not in too many cases.
I think all our "good" servers simply spawn more competition. People in games handle this 2 ways. 1. Rambo off and get the cs cdeathmatch mentality to prject their "E-ego" or 2. Join find others with whom you share a common cause and fight together. Such as with the New Zealanders here. Either way we are all fighting for the same goal, its the ways we choose to get there that make the differences.
Nice little slip up there Monse <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> , Scythe isn't a PT (although I have thought he should be one for a while now)
There are 2 other aussie PTs apart from me and martigen
Heist/Jester and Mojo
Heist is currently living in Texas I believe, but he lived in australia for a while so he is tecnically still aussie.
Mojo is one of the newest additions to the dev team, he has been reanimating some of the models for 1.1.
Personally I'm surprised at the claims of aussie ns players being a group of raging nubs. The only person I have ever seen who remotly fits this description is .:RD:. Matrix who is a mic spamming 2 year old. Everyone else I've played with acts like saints in comparision. I'm sure there are other players who enjoy raging, but thankfully they only seem to play when I don't.
I think all our "good" servers simply spawn more competition. People in games handle this 2 ways. 1. Rambo off and get the cs cdeathmatch mentality to prject their "E-ego" or 2. Join find others with whom you share a common cause and fight together. Such as with the New Zealanders here. Either way we are all fighting for the same goal, its the ways we choose to get there that make the differences. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I would have to disagree there Cpl. Davis. At least for Australians. We separate games from our "competition". They are seen as mere relaxation. Some people just take their "lesiure" more seriously than other.
If you are saying that antisocial players and teamplayers are both "fighting for the same goal" then I would have to disagree. To these rambo's, it doesnt really matter what game they are playing - teamplay, deathmatch, whatever. They are the casual gamer - most probably 13 yrs old, on his parents cable, play a bit of this, a bit of that, and honestly dont give a sod about whose game they are affecting. They are there for the frags.
The teamplayers are there for the greatest possible experience that the game has to offer.
I dont believe that those goals are similar at all.
This merely backs up my point. Mouse is surprised at these claims.
In other words: "nubs? what nubs?"
As he has been playing with these people since whenever he started, these people are a normal part of his gaming experience. Only the extreme nubs (Matrix say no more...) bother him.
It could have something to do with him playing mainly with his clan friends but I still think his response it typical of the Australian gamer.
Kiwis come from their more professional community and get angry at the quality of the standard Aussie.
It is also important to mention that when you are playing with antisocial players, you have to adapt your own style to fit in with them. Usually this just means you keep teamwork to a bare minimum and watch your own back. You dont rely upon them. As there are almost always antisocial players on Australian servers, everyone adapts to accomodate.
Another thing is how often US players refer to us as Australians - it does get very annoying .... Flayra, readyroom.org, who next? (we are not an Australian state rah! <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->)
(On a side note, the sheep jokes do not make sense to me at all - both countries have the same jokes, but with Kiwi substituted for Aussi <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
The reasoning behind me joining an ausie clans is that ausies are far more competitive, the clan scene in nz just can’t compete with the ausies. The clan im in is currently in has 2 team nz players and anther member trialing and we work well together and have had no problems because of our nationalities , sure we get the odd sheep shagging remark but its all it good fun.
By that same theory tho I guess they would call PNG players Australians as well seeing as they useda be a state as well.
Ur kidding - do you call us sheep shaggers as well? Well u learn something every day <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must say though that I support the All Blacks. I just love the haka <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> For all the Americans out there, watch a game of rugby. Then understand why we Aussies and Kiwis fall over laughing when you Yanks refer to American football as a "real sport" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I must say though that I support the All Blacks. I just love the haka <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> For all the Americans out there, watch a game of rugby. Then understand why we Aussies and Kiwis fall over laughing when you Yanks refer to American football as a "real sport" <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well I do know that for a while Australia sorta administrated for New Zealand, then we split, then we talked about getting back together, but nothing ever came out of it.
As for American Football - lol.
I think that just about sums it up j/k <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I swear nothing gets people together more than having something else to ridicule/attack. I know when we will see world peace. We will see world peace when meet an alien race and start fighting with them.
BTW another thought occured to me on the disproportionate number of lamas in the Australian gaming community. These antisocial players have no reason to play on NZ servers. They have little if no friends, and the pings are shocking, and thus have absolutely no reason to stay and play on NZ servers - so they all go and play on Australian servers and boost our lama population.
EDIT
If what I said above is true, I guess that makes NZ unique as the only country that exports its worst players to other countries.... strange
You've obviously never seen England play sports. ):
Well, I have seen them play cricket and that alone was enough to crack me up <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I also watched an extremely amusing game of Australia defeating the best the Brits could throw at them in a soccer match. 3-1 was the final result I believe.
The Brit all star team played the first half and we scored 2 against em. The Brit "fill in" players played second half and drew 1-1 (for that half). Hilarious. We had no strategy, no finesse, and the Brit pro's had no idea how to handle a bunch of illorganised yobs...
but again we digress from the main topic here.......
Havnt really posted in these fourms b4 much <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
gotta love those Pictures
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> <- lol cool could make a story
<!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> "OMG INCOMMING LOCK AND LOAD " <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Im also from nz , Who has been in PSi, and now trialing <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> for hybird <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
play for nz team
Also had my own clan at the start of ns which owned.
nz and aus always have there see whos better comp going down.
Also what was said about Americans that u guys strive for the best is also true
guess whats why u guys pay people so much for Some wackest things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->