Comedy Gold <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know about circle strafe scripts, but I do know that elite bhopping skillz is downloadable of the net, so it's not really a skill.
It's really sad, I can get a bhop script easier than I can get porn for crying out loud, hell I know how to make my own bhop script.
Crap like that is lame, and deserves to get it's a$$ kicked out the door.
Yes bhop script exist. However trying to do it manually and consistently is a skill. I really wonder why everyone coming from Quake consider it as skill, and the other part do not... that s weird.
<!--QuoteBegin--Draconis+Jun 11 2003, 06:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Draconis @ Jun 11 2003, 06:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yes bhop script exist. However trying to do it manually and consistently is a skill. I really wonder why everyone coming from Quake consider it as skill, and the other part do not... that s weird. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Here's another Bhopping paradox:
Bhopping gives a HUGE advantage, one where a skulk can't hit me, right??
Yet, bhopping is much easier than having exceptionally good aim... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah... okay. The real skill is having perfect aim, whereas bhopping is so freakin easy a two year old can do it, it's just a rythem.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Becauseit makes the learning curve too high. It also puts too much emphasis on personal skillsinstead of team skills. You want to show off your bhop skills? Go play quake.
theres ur circle script, byw using this against turrets allows a skulk to kill about 3 turrets with out dieing , even if there all shooting him, as for bhoping its been part of Hl for too long and time it was stoped in every mod.
*<span style='font-family:Arial'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Doesnt work cause not right Hl commands but thats the idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> </span></span>
almost all the people i see who cant bunnyhop because they find it to hard to do complain about it, and all those who can love using it, imo it should be left in cos i hate seeing games dumbed down to either make them more realistic or more accessable for newbies, games should reward skill and practise, not invite people who just get the game to own at it straight away.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Myth...
I can use it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Necro<insert non-birthday-related title here>Join Date: 2002-08-09Member: 1118Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Pjofski+Jun 11 2003, 08:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pjofski @ Jun 11 2003, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I feel that it was necessary to remove bunnyhopping from Marines. The Kharaa depend on speed and agility. Marines depend on more teamwork and power. The Kharaa should be much, much faster than a Marine that is <b>walking backwards</b>, or rather jumping around like a... child on caffiene. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> stop spying on me!
Alright, I finally get to post in this thread. I am no PT so everything I say here is based on my experiences in 1.04 and the posts of current playtesters.
<b>Marine FPS:</b> The human craves certian things in social interactions. One of the largest things is a feeling of being special. The human would do anything to believe that they are all special little snowflakes that will ever be replicated. Unfortunatly, that often times isn't so.
So how does this apply to Natural Selection? In your typical public game, the commander has absolutly no idea what each of him marines are proficient at. Any weapon that would take skill (i.e. shotgun or welder in current 1.04) would need to be administered to a player who would use that weapon to his or her potential. The problem is that as soon as a commender drops a weapon, the entire marine team will bee-line toward the drop before actually looking at what it is. The marine side is so eager to break the monotony of the LMG, that an inexperienced player picks up the weapon, and the master is stuck with his LMG in hand.
In a majority of games, the commander will purchase weapon and armour upgrades instead of dropping weapons. He will soup up the vanilla loadout until they are sure they have won, then the Jetpack HMG comes down.
The problem comes with making the commander shoulder all the responsability for talent-finding, and robbing the grunts from any feeling of skill that cant be accomplished with an aimbot.
<b>Marine FPS/RTS Rework:</b>
Here is the point. Make weapons a researchable item for the commander, and allow the marines to get a VGI menu when they +use an armoury. This armoury gives the marine weapon choices, and three ammo quantity choices (light, medium, and heavy ammo quantity).
Now your saying "WTH? Fr33 HMG! Onos!"
Hold on! It comes at a price like everything else! The price of the research is <b>much</b> higher than the price of the original weapon!
Shotgun: 40 Res - 90 seconds - Advanced Armoury Required Welder: 20 Res - 30 seconds Mines: 20 Res - 60 seconds Grenade Launcher: 70 Res - 120 seconds - Arms Lab Required - Advanced Armoury Required Heavy Machiene Gun - 100 Res - 180 seconds - Arms Lab Required - Advanced Armoury Required
Further "trick weapons" that would fill niches and skill gaps.
Based off of current 1.04, these costs and times seem feasable. The HMG should have it's damage trimmed a bit, but other than that it should be okay.
<b> Explaining the "trick weapons":</b> <u>Dual Pistols:</u> Not 2 pistols at once, but rather a pistol in each weapon slot. This is the equivalent of puting a larger clip on your pistol, but more flexable in the fact that you can throw the primary one and switch weapons as you wish. It is lightweight and caters to all of us who like the mobility and accuracy of the TSA pistol.
<u>Flame Thrower:</u> It is pointless without being volumetric. I believe Firestorm said that volumetric flamethrowers were possible on the Half Life engine, and that he created one for Crisis at Black Mesa. This weapon does low to medium damage (less damage than the LMG) but is capable of flushing out vent areas and breach8ing rooms. There would be no clip to this weapon, but ammo capacity would be very low. Useful against non-regenerating structures.
<u>Grenade:</u> Simple enough. Three hand grenades that occupy the secondary slot. Throw range is moderate, each grenade does about 70 damage at the epicenter, and wanes out in a decent radius. Low damage vs structures.
<u>Nano Bomb:</u> The epitomy of teamwork, this weapon occupies the primary slot of a soldiers loadout. The soldier must look at the ground when placing this bomb. He must keep holding the fire key and looking at the bomb on the ground as a progress bar fills. As he sits there, it plays sounds as he programs the device and re-route's nano hardlines to his location. the bomb glows brighter and brighter until the progress bar fills 50 seconds after placement. The room becomes very bright and an explosion blows the device apart and hunter/killer nano's pour out of every orifice, causing a stinkcloud like effect on the surrounding area, deconstructing kharra bacterium.
<b>Further Digression</b> Make the prototype lab a vehicle bay of sorts. If researched, the marine can +use the prototype lab to bring up a VGUI menu for Jetpacks and Heavy armour. The marine can then request them. The commander will get a prompt saying "<i>Authorize Heavy Armour for Player X?</i>" If the commander clicks yes, the proto lab will slap Heavy armour on that marine (maybe with a sweet animation!) and the res for that HA will be consumed. Jetpacks work much the same way. To prevent annoyance, the marine will only be able to ask once each spawn. Why do this? So the right people get the right gear.
Players need a symbol next to their name to signify the weapon they are carrying. This makes it easy for a commander to see his groups and send the right people in the right direction. The marines should also be able to tell what their comrades are carrying at a glance.
I'm worried that this reply will get dismissed without being read, or labled as a cheap Science and Industry knock off.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--cri.tical+Jun 10 2003, 08:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cri.tical @ Jun 10 2003, 08:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm sorry Insane. But you are wrong on that. The goal is make the game intuitive to everyone <span style='color:red'>AND</span> reward players who devote lots of time to the game by including skills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't agree with you there. To introduce an element giving the advanced players a heavy edge based on something that takes a highly developed skill (bunnyhopping is a rather good example here) is to automatically make the game less intuitive for the newer players, and will also make it harder to get into.
Of course, players who devote lots of time to the game are automatically rewarded by being good at it. It's when such "skills" are introduced that give too much of an advantage to people that it gets less intuitive for newer players.
In most successful RTS, there is one generally inalienable axiom:
<b>Any feasible strategy should be counterable by a slightly more complicated strategy</b>
I'll use Starcraft as an example: Low numbers of zealots can counter low numbers of hydralisks To counter, the hydralisks should regroup enmasse. To counter, the zealots should get templars to storm the hydras To counter, the hydras will need queens to kill the templars. To counter, the protoss will need corsairs. To counter, the the zerg will need devourers. etc. etc.
By now we have a huge and complex army. The more complex the tactic/mix of units, the harder it is to counter. This is the type of thing NS needs, a counter-system not so much rock-paper-scissors, but ideally a complex web.
For example in NS 1.04 we have JP/HMG. This is a relatively easy strategy that is CONSIDERABLY hard to defend. Not to say impossible but the counter is NOT slightly harder. THat is the real imbalance Same with base campers. This is a feasible strategy with a counter that is overly complicated (or in this case burdening, building an OC early in the game is detrimental).
Currently NS 1.1 has some of these problems as well, either lacking counters (onos stomp) or counters that are far too complicated (bilebomb, electrified resource towers)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is the type of thing NS needs, a counter-system not so much rock-paper-scissors, but ideally a complex web.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah! we are not alone <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That being said, i think Flayra didnt have time to explore all the RTS aspect of NS, and it should come in further versions like 1.2.
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
edited June 2003
You know, I find it funny that the same people who are complaining that bhopping is removed now begged Flayra to remove the gigantic muzzle flash from the LMG back in the day, something that makes/made the LMG require practice and skill to use correctly.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited June 2003
To use the SC analogy, what Flayra & Co. must avoid is the problem that plagues every RTS (Blizzard in particular)
Unit dominance.
The fact is, due to unit pathfinding, and the way they allow projectiles to pass through friendlies in order to make the game feasible at all, large numbers of missile units invariably beat similar amounts of close range. This is a simple downfall of every RTS yet, including WC3 (which attempted to avoid it, but simply made people think of new ways of doing it)
That's just an example.
Now take the problems of introducing player controlled units, truly 3d terrain, the problems of putting an RTS into a 3d based engine, and all the exploits that come from the various abilities, and you have a smelting pot for the dev's to take care of.
To go to bhopping. bhoppers create unit dominance. A decent marine who's 'skilled' (read: played more than you, and can tap his feet in time, you bunch of criers) can take on far more than one marine generally should be capable of. Hence, dominance. Hence, imbalance in game play. I can bhop happily, but I don't. Because I'd rather see a game show a fair & balanced playstyle, compared to showing my oh-so-1.337 skills off.
You'll just have to learn to co-operate hoppers, just like the game intended. It doesn't remove from skill, because it will in fact generate MORE skill in the style of...
1) Team positioning. 2) Fields of Fire 3) Avoidance strategy 4) CQB
And the various skills employed by any Special Forces unit currently in the world arena today.
Given the choice between being Rambo or a member of the SAS? Pass me my black balaclava.
In response Shockwave, we are not really making Natural Selection for a group of black ops members who have been together for years in training. Nine times out of ten, you will be playing with complete strangers who can never cease to amaze in skill, cheat use, and stupidity. Many will not play as team members unless you lie to them and make them feel like they are the reason the marine team is so successful. It's like a college marching band, you have to tell the drumline they are the heart of the band, else they get bored and unmotivated with their simple parts. The same lie must also be circulated to the tubas trumpets, and flutes. Marine FPS in Natural Selection is beginning to feel like we are handing them all piccolos and beating them to death when they sound bad compared to the diverse Kharra band. I'll trade my black balaclava for a saxaphone any day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The fact is, due to unit pathfinding, and the way they allow projectiles to pass through friendlies in order to make the game feasible at all, large numbers of missile units invariably beat similar amounts of close range. This is a simple downfall of every RTS yet, including WC3 (which attempted to avoid it, but simply made people think of new ways of doing it)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Have you played Age of Mythology? If anything it's dominated by cavalry with their speed and huge amount of hitpoints, but massed archers are not a problem. I don't think you can generalize the problems of WC3 like that. WC3 did several things wrong, that's why they introduced this strange unintuitive armour system in 1.06.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
Twex - Well, I was generalizing. But you have just given a different occurance of dominance. Just because it's because of a different unit, doesn't make the situation any better <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Incidentally, cavalry should really dominate in any historically based game. If you're not being historical, fine, go right ahead, make everything counter each other. But if you want to make a game grounded in fact, cavalry should dominate. This is for the very simple reason of, <b>they really DID dominate</b> for nearly 500 years. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for Freemantle. I suggest an age limit to play NS. Forever. Say.... (checks own age) 23? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--KarriN+Jun 10 2003, 04:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KarriN @ Jun 10 2003, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Off-topic: Bad coding has affected another fave MOD of mine, too. The strafe-shooting with Kar and Enfield rifles in Day of Defeat 1.0 is totally horrible. Where's the point of having machineguns in the game when a random "railgun" killer who's practiced a little can drop 'em off in a split second while running/strafing from behind a corner? Oh, the horrific obnoxiousness of it all.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sigh.. Boy did they **** up that release.
Ruined my second most played online game. I cant even play it anymore with out wanting to break my keyboard in half.
Hey helper dog thats great i shot a team mate i know, now please get off my screen now... Wait you say i cant remove you fully? Thats great.
Sweet im in an alley and i just ran out of ammo, now all i have to do is run up and bayonet him, or switch to my sidearm, wait a second... WTH... WHY IS MY GUN RELOADING AUTOMATICALLY??!?!? NO NO DONT RELOAD, NO I - STOP WTH@!%#$!^#@^$#@$#
Sweet three guys around that corner, im just gonna toss em a nade they will never know. Whats that molotov billy? You say enemies can see grenades on the retarded **** minimap you added? Oh well thats not too bad. Ill just go to my favorite sniper spot on the map and own them! They wont even know where im shooting from! Heh- err... Hey how did he know i was there? He must be wall hacking or something... Oh youre telling me you added a cool new feature called death cam which shows your enemy exactly where you are at and even follows you through walls after you kill him? Well i guess, thats not SO bad. WAIT WTH DID YOU DO TO MY GARAND? THREE SHOTS TO KILL? THATS freaking IT...
Thats about where i uninstalled the game.
Sorry this was REALLY off topic, but i just needed to vent. Dont get me started on the whole "THE ONLY WEAPONS CODE WE TOUCHED WAS THE BAR" when they have so obviously changed guns like the mg42, cutting its ROF nearly in half.
After a serious thought about this, I agree with most of what you said Freemantle, well said.
Anyway, as a commander since NS was released, I can say a few things, even if I'm not in the veteran team.
All the marines want to be special, as stated (yeah I'm putting it very blunt). As a Commander I REALLY want to help them in that. I know its rewarding. I cant tho. If I start giving out those shotguns (the only fun thing you can give to a marine really, and a pack of mines) we loose the game though.
I dont have ready ideas here, but in my opinion commander should have to be able to give marines SOMETHING in return for their co-operation. Those who dont obey orders? Be just regular marines. Those who do? Something to reward them. All I can do now is try and be accurate with medpacks and ammo.
A thought passed my mind about some sort of nano-upgrades or whatever you call them. Make them cost 5-10 ress, like a pack of mines. Make them give rines... something. I was thinking of more speed, more ammo capacity, more health, more armor, maybe.. But then again, could be abused in clangames by upping a bunch of uberrines and rushing hive. Maybe. Unless it costs just barely enough not to be good given to all, but still cheap enough to be given to that marine who just welded your base or built those ress towers to the other end of map.
In short:
A commander should be able to reward marines somehow.
(Addition: Maybe make the upgrades useless. Just something cool or fun and cheap. It doesnt change balance or cause issues balance-wise, but it adds to the game, makes playing more rewarding and makes it FEEL more diverse and thats what its all about. Clangames will be interesting with just a few viable rine tactics as long as aliens can do lots of different things, since marines do have to adapt by surging group rushes to building sites and so on.)
Alien side? As I hear, alien side is diverse enough, as also stated before.
And to be perfectly honest, the only reason for me not to post ideas and suggestions and doubts daily is that it feels that in general board you get mostly ignored as a 100 people do just the same. Could some Veteran give an encouraging word and say its not so? (No, I'm not trying to fish for views on my post, rather, know if its worth the while to all to post suggestions here)
<!--QuoteBegin--|ds|meatshield+Jun 10 2003, 03:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Jun 10 2003, 03:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that bhopping makes the learning curve a bit too steep. Imagine if you're completely new to ns, and you join aliens. You;'re like, "Wow! I can climb walls and bite marines! There's a marine! Im going to chase him! Wait, why am I slower than a marine that's going backwards? Omg he hax Marines aren't that fast! He killed me so fast and I can't even catch up! Aliens suxors!!!!11111 NS sucks I quit!" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't resist..
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
Sorry for bringing up this <i>ancient</i> topic, but I'm still sick of the hypocrysy coming from these "they took out something that took skill and didn't add anything" people, many of which are the same people who begged Flayra to tone down the lmg muzzle flash (see my post above) and I want to know how they justify it.
<!--QuoteBegin--SiLeNcEr-7+Jun 15 2003, 10:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SiLeNcEr-7 @ Jun 15 2003, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry for bringing up this <i>ancient</i> topic, but I'm still sick of the hypocrysy coming from these "they took out something that took skill and didn't add anything" people, many of which are the same people who begged Flayra to tone down the lmg muzzle flash (see my post above) and I want to know how they justify it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you keeping track of posters or just assuming that these are the same people?
I'm hearing conflicting arguments from the anti-bunnyhopping side. Some say bunnyhopping should be removed because it isn't a skill, and "any 2-year old can do it". Others say it is too difficult and makes the learning curve too steep.
Also, I would like to say that you can't just download a script and start bunnyhopping. It takes <i>way</i> more than that, trust me.
As for the issue of learning curve, it's really a decision on how accessible the devs want NS to be. A preference for accessibility my have influenced the dev team's decision of removing bunnyhopping. Even though I lean more towards masterable games than accessible games, I think I can stand the loss of bunnyhopping.
Comments
...............
<b>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAAHAAHAHHHHA</b>
Comedy Gold <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know about circle strafe scripts, but I do know that elite bhopping skillz is downloadable of the net, so it's not really a skill.
It's really sad, I can get a bhop script easier than I can get porn for crying out loud, hell I know how to make my own bhop script.
Crap like that is lame, and deserves to get it's a$$ kicked out the door.
Here's another Bhopping paradox:
Bhopping gives a HUGE advantage, one where a skulk can't hit me, right??
Yet, bhopping is much easier than having exceptionally good aim... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah... okay. The real skill is having perfect aim, whereas bhopping is so freakin easy a two year old can do it, it's just a rythem.
+strafeleft*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
theres ur circle script, byw using this against turrets allows a skulk to kill about 3 turrets with out dieing , even if there all shooting him, as for bhoping its been part of Hl for too long and time it was stoped in every mod.
*<span style='font-family:Arial'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Doesnt work cause not right Hl commands but thats the idea <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> </span></span>
I can use it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Like Mahjong Master. Or Scrabble.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
stop spying on me!
<b>Marine FPS:</b> The human craves certian things in social interactions. One of the largest things is a feeling of being special. The human would do anything to believe that they are all special little snowflakes that will ever be replicated. Unfortunatly, that often times isn't so.
So how does this apply to Natural Selection? In your typical public game, the commander has absolutly no idea what each of him marines are proficient at. Any weapon that would take skill (i.e. shotgun or welder in current 1.04) would need to be administered to a player who would use that weapon to his or her potential. The problem is that as soon as a commender drops a weapon, the entire marine team will bee-line toward the drop before actually looking at what it is. The marine side is so eager to break the monotony of the LMG, that an inexperienced player picks up the weapon, and the master is stuck with his LMG in hand.
In a majority of games, the commander will purchase weapon and armour upgrades instead of dropping weapons. He will soup up the vanilla loadout until they are sure they have won, then the Jetpack HMG comes down.
The problem comes with making the commander shoulder all the responsability for talent-finding, and robbing the grunts from any feeling of skill that cant be accomplished with an aimbot.
<b>Marine FPS/RTS Rework:</b>
Here is the point. Make weapons a researchable item for the commander, and allow the marines to get a VGI menu when they +use an armoury. This armoury gives the marine weapon choices, and three ammo quantity choices (light, medium, and heavy ammo quantity).
Now your saying "WTH? Fr33 HMG! Onos!"
Hold on! It comes at a price like everything else! The price of the research is <b>much</b> higher than the price of the original weapon!
Shotgun: 40 Res - 90 seconds - Advanced Armoury Required
Welder: 20 Res - 30 seconds
Mines: 20 Res - 60 seconds
Grenade Launcher: 70 Res - 120 seconds - Arms Lab Required - Advanced Armoury Required
Heavy Machiene Gun - 100 Res - 180 seconds - Arms Lab Required - Advanced Armoury Required
Further "trick weapons" that would fill niches and skill gaps.
Dual Pistols* - 25 Res - 90 Seconds
Flame Thrower** - 70 Res - 180 Seconds - Advanced Armoury Required - Arms lab Required
Grenade*** - 50 Res - 180 seconds - Advanced Armoury
Nano Bomb **** - 100 Res - 180 seconds- Arms Lab Required - Advanced Armoury Required
Based off of current 1.04, these costs and times seem feasable. The HMG should have it's damage trimmed a bit, but other than that it should be okay.
<b> Explaining the "trick weapons":</b>
<u>Dual Pistols:</u> Not 2 pistols at once, but rather a pistol in each weapon slot. This is the equivalent of puting a larger clip on your pistol, but more flexable in the fact that you can throw the primary one and switch weapons as you wish. It is lightweight and caters to all of us who like the mobility and accuracy of the TSA pistol.
<u>Flame Thrower:</u> It is pointless without being volumetric. I believe Firestorm said that volumetric flamethrowers were possible on the Half Life engine, and that he created one for Crisis at Black Mesa. This weapon does low to medium damage (less damage than the LMG) but is capable of flushing out vent areas and breach8ing rooms. There would be no clip to this weapon, but ammo capacity would be very low. Useful against non-regenerating structures.
<u>Grenade:</u> Simple enough. Three hand grenades that occupy the secondary slot. Throw range is moderate, each grenade does about 70 damage at the epicenter, and wanes out in a decent radius. Low damage vs structures.
<u>Nano Bomb:</u> The epitomy of teamwork, this weapon occupies the primary slot of a soldiers loadout. The soldier must look at the ground when placing this bomb. He must keep holding the fire key and looking at the bomb on the ground as a progress bar fills. As he sits there, it plays sounds as he programs the device and re-route's nano hardlines to his location. the bomb glows brighter and brighter until the progress bar fills 50 seconds after placement. The room becomes very bright and an explosion blows the device apart and hunter/killer nano's pour out of every orifice, causing a stinkcloud like effect on the surrounding area, deconstructing kharra bacterium.
<b>Further Digression</b> Make the prototype lab a vehicle bay of sorts. If researched, the marine can +use the prototype lab to bring up a VGUI menu for Jetpacks and Heavy armour. The marine can then request them. The commander will get a prompt saying "<i>Authorize Heavy Armour for Player X?</i>" If the commander clicks yes, the proto lab will slap Heavy armour on that marine (maybe with a sweet animation!) and the res for that HA will be consumed. Jetpacks work much the same way. To prevent annoyance, the marine will only be able to ask once each spawn. Why do this? So the right people get the right gear.
Players need a symbol next to their name to signify the weapon they are carrying. This makes it easy for a commander to see his groups and send the right people in the right direction. The marines should also be able to tell what their comrades are carrying at a glance.
I'm worried that this reply will get dismissed without being read, or labled as a cheap Science and Industry knock off.
The goal is make the game intuitive to everyone <span style='color:red'>AND</span> reward players who devote lots of time to the game by including skills. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't agree with you there. To introduce an element giving the advanced players a heavy edge based on something that takes a highly developed skill (bunnyhopping is a rather good example here) is to automatically make the game less intuitive for the newer players, and will also make it harder to get into.
Of course, players who devote lots of time to the game are automatically rewarded by being good at it. It's when such "skills" are introduced that give too much of an advantage to people that it gets less intuitive for newer players.
<b>Any feasible strategy should be counterable by a slightly more complicated strategy</b>
I'll use Starcraft as an example:
Low numbers of zealots can counter low numbers of hydralisks
To counter, the hydralisks should regroup enmasse.
To counter, the zealots should get templars to storm the hydras
To counter, the hydras will need queens to kill the templars.
To counter, the protoss will need corsairs.
To counter, the the zerg will need devourers.
etc. etc.
By now we have a huge and complex army. The more complex the tactic/mix of units, the harder it is to counter.
This is the type of thing NS needs, a counter-system not so much rock-paper-scissors, but ideally a complex web.
For example in NS 1.04 we have JP/HMG. This is a relatively easy strategy that is CONSIDERABLY hard to defend. Not to say impossible but the counter is NOT slightly harder. THat is the real imbalance
Same with base campers. This is a feasible strategy with a counter that is overly complicated (or in this case burdening, building an OC early in the game is detrimental).
Currently NS 1.1 has some of these problems as well, either lacking counters (onos stomp) or counters that are far too complicated (bilebomb, electrified resource towers)
Did I just state the obvious?
Yeah! we are not alone <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That being said, i think Flayra didnt have time to explore all the RTS aspect of NS, and it should come in further versions like 1.2.
Unit dominance.
The fact is, due to unit pathfinding, and the way they allow projectiles to pass through friendlies in order to make the game feasible at all, large numbers of missile units invariably beat similar amounts of close range. This is a simple downfall of every RTS yet, including WC3 (which attempted to avoid it, but simply made people think of new ways of doing it)
That's just an example.
Now take the problems of introducing player controlled units, truly 3d terrain, the problems of putting an RTS into a 3d based engine, and all the exploits that come from the various abilities, and you have a smelting pot for the dev's to take care of.
To go to bhopping. bhoppers create unit dominance. A decent marine who's 'skilled' (read: played more than you, and can tap his feet in time, you bunch of criers) can take on far more than one marine generally should be capable of. Hence, dominance. Hence, imbalance in game play. I can bhop happily, but I don't. Because I'd rather see a game show a fair & balanced playstyle, compared to showing my oh-so-1.337 skills off.
You'll just have to learn to co-operate hoppers, just like the game intended. It doesn't remove from skill, because it will in fact generate MORE skill in the style of...
1) Team positioning.
2) Fields of Fire
3) Avoidance strategy
4) CQB
And the various skills employed by any Special Forces unit currently in the world arena today.
Given the choice between being Rambo or a member of the SAS? Pass me my black balaclava.
Thanks,
Shockeh.
Have you played Age of Mythology? If anything it's dominated by cavalry with their speed and huge amount of hitpoints, but massed archers are not a problem. I don't think you can generalize the problems of WC3 like that. WC3 did several things wrong, that's why they introduced this strange unintuitive armour system in 1.06.
Incidentally, cavalry should really dominate in any historically based game. If you're not being historical, fine, go right ahead, make everything counter each other. But if you want to make a game grounded in fact, cavalry should dominate. This is for the very simple reason of, <b>they really DID dominate</b> for nearly 500 years. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for Freemantle. I suggest an age limit to play NS. Forever. Say.... (checks own age) 23? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sigh.. Boy did they **** up that release.
Ruined my second most played online game. I cant even play it anymore with out wanting to break my keyboard in half.
Hey helper dog thats great i shot a team mate i know, now please get off my screen now... Wait you say i cant remove you fully? Thats great.
Sweet im in an alley and i just ran out of ammo, now all i have to do is run up and bayonet him, or switch to my sidearm, wait a second... WTH... WHY IS MY GUN RELOADING AUTOMATICALLY??!?!? NO NO DONT RELOAD, NO I - STOP WTH@!%#$!^#@^$#@$#
Sweet three guys around that corner, im just gonna toss em a nade they will never know. Whats that molotov billy? You say enemies can see grenades on the retarded **** minimap you added? Oh well thats not too bad. Ill just go to my favorite sniper spot on the map and own them! They wont even know where im shooting from! Heh- err... Hey how did he know i was there? He must be wall hacking or something... Oh youre telling me you added a cool new feature called death cam which shows your enemy exactly where you are at and even follows you through walls after you kill him? Well i guess, thats not SO bad. WAIT WTH DID YOU DO TO MY GARAND? THREE SHOTS TO KILL? THATS freaking IT...
Thats about where i uninstalled the game.
Sorry this was REALLY off topic, but i just needed to vent. Dont get me started on the whole "THE ONLY WEAPONS CODE WE TOUCHED WAS THE BAR" when they have so obviously changed guns like the mg42, cutting its ROF nearly in half.
Anyway, im against the bunnyhopping thing.
Bad Semper, Bad. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, as a commander since NS was released, I can say a few things, even if I'm not in the veteran team.
All the marines want to be special, as stated (yeah I'm putting it very blunt). As a Commander I REALLY want to help them in that. I know its rewarding. I cant tho. If I start giving out those shotguns (the only fun thing you can give to a marine really, and a pack of mines) we loose the game though.
I dont have ready ideas here, but in my opinion commander should have to be able to give marines SOMETHING in return for their co-operation. Those who dont obey orders? Be just regular marines. Those who do? Something to reward them. All I can do now is try and be accurate with medpacks and ammo.
A thought passed my mind about some sort of nano-upgrades or whatever you call them. Make them cost 5-10 ress, like a pack of mines. Make them give rines... something. I was thinking of more speed, more ammo capacity, more health, more armor, maybe.. But then again, could be abused in clangames by upping a bunch of uberrines and rushing hive. Maybe. Unless it costs just barely enough not to be good given to all, but still cheap enough to be given to that marine who just welded your base or built those ress towers to the other end of map.
In short:
A commander should be able to reward marines somehow.
(Addition: Maybe make the upgrades useless. Just something cool or fun and cheap. It doesnt change balance or cause issues balance-wise, but it adds to the game, makes playing more rewarding and makes it FEEL more diverse and thats what its all about. Clangames will be interesting with just a few viable rine tactics as long as aliens can do lots of different things, since marines do have to adapt by surging group rushes to building sites and so on.)
Alien side? As I hear, alien side is diverse enough, as also stated before.
And to be perfectly honest, the only reason for me not to post ideas and suggestions and doubts daily is that it feels that in general board you get mostly ignored as a 100 people do just the same. Could some Veteran give an encouraging word and say its not so? (No, I'm not trying to fish for views on my post, rather, know if its worth the while to all to post suggestions here)
-Tark
I couldn't resist..
Omg teh hax updates aren't that slow! It's so slow it will never come out! 1.1 suxors!!!!11111 NS sucks I quit!"
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...it looks stupid :-)
Are you keeping track of posters or just assuming that these are the same people?
Also, I would like to say that you can't just download a script and start bunnyhopping. It takes <i>way</i> more than that, trust me.
As for the issue of learning curve, it's really a decision on how accessible the devs want NS to be. A preference for accessibility my have influenced the dev team's decision of removing bunnyhopping. Even though I lean more towards masterable games than accessible games, I think I can stand the loss of bunnyhopping.