KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
edited June 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jun 12 2003, 07:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 12 2003, 07:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Please please Flayra if it's money you want say the word and we'll donate! Just please don't throw our beloved game to the ravenous cheaters and immature pre-teens who ruined CS! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, please, they were there in the first place, and they're already here. Even in this very forum.
What almost EVERYONE fails to note when it comes to CS and DoD going retail is that all the ****, all the cheaters, all the whatever... They were ALREADY THERE. Anytime you have -any- large group of people, you're going to have large amounts of less-than desirable people. The total online playerbase of Counter-Strike could account for EVERY PERSON IN NEW YORK CITY and then some! Does that mean I should never go there because of all the thieves, robbers, murderers, and general jerks? Hell no! Just like New York City, the online gaming communities have the great, friendly "neighborhoods" with great people, but also the seedier areas where you have to be careful. There are fantastic communities and sub-communities in CS and DoD, and plenty of them at that - Why should the jerks take precedence over these groups?
Quite frankly, people want a reason to hate something that's popular. Popularity means people 'lose' their shreds of individuality to actually like it. When it comes to CS and DoD, these were great mods with solid player bases that were fortunate enough to expand into the mainstream market. You can say retail "killed" CS and DoD all you want, but their player numbers are surging to new highs - Those two former mods are almost the #1 and #2 online games in terms of total players, CS annihilating all competition and DoD giving BF1942, MOH:AA, and UT2K3 solid runs for their money.
I've yet to see a solid reason why CS and DoD shouldn't have gone retail, and I've yet to see a reason why NS shouldn't, should the opportunity arise. Anything that happens I will back 100% of the way. I bought CS retail, I bought DoD retail, and if I couldn't manage NS retail for free, I'd buy it too. Hell, I'd probably buy a couple copies anyway. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i love the idea of ns2 being epic. ever since i saw half life 2 i thought about how great it would be with real dropships... like leaping as a skulk onto the side of one and biting the engine and bringing the thing down. i assume we will see much more advanced races of various sizes since they shouldn't have the 3 hull sizes or whatever to deal with.
Also, I don't think many of you even understand what the term "selling out" means. I hear it all the time on mod messege boards, and it more often than not sounds like whining. "Selling-out" is when someone completely goes back on their principles and promises in order to gain from something, most oftenly, money. Flayra has never said "NS will NEVER go retail ever, **** those corporate clownshoes! Wiggedy whack yo!". In my opinion people who complain about someone like Flayra "selling out" are nothing but selfish people who simply panic when their little clique is open for others to experience. Guys like Flayra work their hind quarters off to produce quality work like NS, but they are not recieving a steady paycheck for it. You can't live on coding for free. I would wager that the the people who claim "sell out" would put NS on the market if they were in Flay's position in a heartbeat.
I would like to join the constelation program too its just that there aren't that good ways too pay from europe. Maybe if you could extend them? Maybe then more ppl are willing to donate?
See... I don't have paypal and I don't want to send a check half way the earth <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
One thing I was curious on. In the Flayra interview he said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The attention we've gotten from NS has opened up some new options for us though, so expect some exciting announcements in the future. Imagine an on-going persistent war, with many battles happening simultaneously, a full chain of command, outdoor battles, dropships and vehicles, battle-ranked commanders...watch this space. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but in the suggestions FAQ it says: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that will not be going into NS due to engine/game design constraints:
Another team/race
More alien evolutions (Which doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be new abilities, we just can't afford, say, six abilities per class.)
Vehicles/mechs
Secondary fire options<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> and also...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ideas that have already been suggested, and have been popularly denied:
Promotions for marines <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'no promotions' and 'No Vehicles' (for different reasons) wont be in NS with the current Halflife engine. Any ideas what this means or does it mean nothing? Thanx,
heh Halflife 2 maybe? Or totally new game developed by the team <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> lol
If you are a true fan you'd want to see this go retail. It will make it a better game. No one said that going retail had to be with Valve. But that's beside the point.
If the goal of retail is to get these guys some good hard earned $, a better game and more ppl to play against I'm in. Cheater have always been around and will always be around. They were there way before CS went retail. And as far as I'm concerned both DoD and CS are still awesome games that have gotten better. The only bad thing i can think of about DoD that wont get fixed in 1.1 is the sniper.. but hey.. so be it.. it might even get fixed who knows.. but overall, it has gotten better due the influx of $$.
So deal and be happy that this mod might get even more popular!
<!--QuoteBegin--Exer+Jun 12 2003, 04:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exer @ Jun 12 2003, 04:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you are a true fan you'd want to see this go retail. It will make it a better game. No one said that going retail had to be with Valve. But that's beside the point.
If the goal of retail is to get these guys some good hard earned $, a better game and more ppl to play against I'm in. Cheater have always been around and will always be around. They were there way before CS went retail. And as far as I'm concerned both DoD and CS are still awesome games that have gotten better. The only bad thing i can think of about DoD that wont get fixed in 1.1 is the sniper.. but hey.. so be it.. it might even get fixed who knows.. but overall, it has gotten better due the influx of $$.
So deal and be happy that this mod might get even more popular! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if you refering to me but if you were you got the wrong end of the stick.
I wasn't even refering to NS going retail <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone also considered that if his "new bosses" tried to make him change it so much that it would not remain NS anymore Flayra might go like this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst a classy pic, it doesn't really answer the issue at hand. I guess it comes down to how much Flayra wants to make a profit from NS; if he's happy to see himseld fired and his creation perhaps seized by his employers then perhaps he may emulate that pic. On the other hand, if the issue here seems to be money (and quite frankly I'm at a loss to understand what else this could be about) then having a steady job working as a programmer for a major software company is pretty hard to pass up. Who's to say Flayra wouldn't bend to his bosses wishes? I don't know, I'm not Flayra <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can say retail "killed" CS and DoD all you want, but their player numbers are surging to new highs - Those two former mods are almost the #1 and #2 online games in terms of total players, CS annihilating all competition and DoD giving BF1942, MOH:AA, and UT2K3 solid runs for their money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's some nice competition. (sarcasm launch detected). Whilst I don't want to get into a CS debate here, I maintain that the central reason for CS's popularity has been it's lack of decent competition. It occupies a niche in the gameing world that has yet to be challanged, except by DoD. If by "killed" you think I mean profits are soaring and the makers are rolling in cash then no, it's not dead. If by "killed" I mean the once fun gameplay is leeched out then yes, they're dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What almost EVERYONE fails to note when it comes to CS and DoD going retail is that all the ****, all the cheaters, all the whatever... They were ALREADY THERE. Anytime you have -any- large group of people, you're going to have large amounts of less-than desirable people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why is it when I go from an NS server to a CS server, the average age seems to plumet 10 years, everyone accuses everyone else of "haXoring" and the general atmosphere is one of hostility and hatred? Where are these legions of CS lamers in the NS community? I'm seriously at a loss here; I know they exist because I can see them on the CS servers. Oh wait, there's a crucial differance here. CS IS RETAIL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just like New York City, the online gaming communities have the great, friendly "neighborhoods" with great people, but also the seedier areas where you have to be careful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's good parts of New York city? Perhaps I'll visit some day in my tank <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In order for the Alien race to work in outdoor areas is would have to be redesigned. Maybe something like the new DoD where you get race evolutions and abilities based on the map. That would be interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please please Flayra if it's money you want say the word and we'll donate! Just please don't throw our beloved game to the ravenous cheaters and immature pre-teens who ruined CS!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this. I think the CS players are us. When I play CS I certainly act like one of those a**holes. It's not the large community that brings this out of me it's the game. It's just so frustrating and competitive that it makes you go berserk. It's different with NS, it's based on teamplay.
hmmm im not sure if i want NS to go retail.... i mean i really hope they do cause that is their dream and all.... but personally i like the smaller end of the server ammounts and the community is much closer together. you go look at the counter-strike forums and you from the outside will see a big mess...not pretty... neways maybe there could be some other way for outside areas to work instead of charging them... you know cause the aliens arent really the run straight type of "people" maybe just have interesting and hidden ways to get from point A to point B... also that evolutions based on map would be hard to balance in some aspects :\ and hard to code many abilites so that you ahve a wide range to choose from...... Flayra would grow blue with all the work it would take <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm not going to burst into tears if NS goes retail, alternately I'm also completely willing to do this constellation thing. I think that's the best way to voice our opinions to Flay. Just donate or don't.
In the last question of the interview, Flayra says: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine an on-going persistent war, with many battles happening simultaneously, a full chain of command, outdoor battles, dropships and vehicles, battle-ranked commanders...watch this space.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I whole heartedly support the ongoing efforts of Flayra and the NS Team, and I don't mean to be picky or pessimistic, but this idea sounds like a rip off of the MMOFPS Planetside. And it sounds like Kharra would be at a major disadvantage because there are no vents out in the wilderness, and I couldn't imagine a Fade cruisin through the swamp in a Humvee. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm finding it difficult to even understand where the nay-sayers are coming from on this issue.
To me it sounds like the argument is "If a game is in retail, it's a sellout and made only to make money and therefore a lesser product". You're saying that games with budgets are generally crappy then games without budgets? That's like saying that if music is popular, it's crappy. I actually used to think this, but I've come to realize that some really popular music is popular because it's great.
I fail to see how you're going to pay for my food or health insurance, both of which are in very short supply right now. As it is I've pumped a crapload of money into NS (it's a never-ending drain of cash) and even with Constellation, haven't even come close to coming out ahead.
The choice is clear: stop work on NS, or find a way to make it sustainable. If you think that getting funding is going to make me throw the game into the gutter, then you've got another thing coming.
We wub you Flayra. Don't listen to the nay-sayers! No no! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Besides, I can't feel guilty, I'm in the constellation program. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just wish I could do more that didn't require monentary objects. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
KungFuSquirrelBasher of MuttonsJoin Date: 2002-01-26Member: 103Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jun 12 2003, 09:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 12 2003, 09:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can say retail "killed" CS and DoD all you want, but their player numbers are surging to new highs - Those two former mods are almost the #1 and #2 online games in terms of total players, CS annihilating all competition and DoD giving BF1942, MOH:AA, and UT2K3 solid runs for their money. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's some nice competition. (sarcasm launch detected). Whilst I don't want to get into a CS debate here, I maintain that the central reason for CS's popularity has been it's lack of decent competition. It occupies a niche in the gameing world that has yet to be challanged, except by DoD. If by "killed" you think I mean profits are soaring and the makers are rolling in cash then no, it's not dead. If by "killed" I mean the once fun gameplay is leeched out then yes, they're dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Upwards of 100,000 people are often playing Counter-Strike at any given moment. Day of Defeat has just recently topped the 6,000 mark which few newer retail games can come close to. It would seem plenty of people still find them fun - You do NOT speak for the 8 million+ Half-Life player base. Of course, your little "sarcasm" mention would seem to imply that you don't find -any- of the top played FPS games to be fun, which makes me wonder why you're even around if every game out there is so crappy - which, intentional or not, is the attitude you convey.
You can get into how smaller games with smaller player bases are so much better, but with no player bases the games simply cannot survive extended periods of time as the "mainstay" titles do. Not to mention that when the **** get into these communities, the entire player base can collapse and disperse, as I've seen happen twice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So why is it when I go from an NS server to a CS server, the average age seems to plumet 10 years, everyone accuses everyone else of "haXoring" and the general atmosphere is one of hostility and hatred? Where are these legions of CS lamers in the NS community? I'm seriously at a loss here; I know they exist because I can see them on the CS servers. Oh wait, there's a crucial differance here. CS IS RETAIL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no one difference to blame. You have any idea how many tiny mods have absolutely crap communities? Can you imagine an entire mod's player base collapsing because of 2 jackasses? I've seen FAR worse than CS in non-retail mods and in other games. There's also a little fact that most people overlook in making these comparisons which is (*gasp*)... NS is NOT CS. The level of complexity in itself drives a lot of these people off, but that doesn't mean they're not still around or that NS is any better off non-retail. And, again, I imagine you're playing on the right servers for NS and the wrong servers for CS. I used to play CS in a clan setting and mainly frequented about 4-5 servers. They were all great. Even now, I know of a number that have great close-knit player communities and friendly atmospheres. I've heard PLENTY of horror stories from NS servers to know that we're hardly uneffected. What you see is not all that occurs.
Anyway, that last paragraph (and this sentence) is moot; I'll leave you with the one single point that is relevant: <b>Correlation does not indicate causation</b>. The logical framework of saying "CS has annoying players and CS is retail, therefore going retail will bring in a huge flood of annoying players" is the same logical flow that gives us "Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed people and they played video games, therefore video games make people kill people."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There's good parts of New York city? Perhaps I'll visit some day in my tank <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove my point, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> You have this mentality of it being so horrible that you refuse to see what's so great about it. I spent a week in New York City a couple years ago (May of 2001) and it was an absolute blast. The place is amazing on so many levels... the buildings, the people, the culture, etc. etc. Get out of your tank for a second, in New York -or- CS/DoD, and you might see what I mean.
I fail to see the reasoning behind these naysayers not wanting NS to go retail. Do they think that Flayra is a sellout if he take HIS creation to retail acceptability? Flay has worked over 2 years on NS and probably poured a countless amount of money in to its creation, and all for free. He makes no money off of NS and the money from Constellation goes to pay for the web page and these forums among other things. NS is revolutionary; from the premise, to the design, to the game play, any fool can see that. NS deserves to go retail if any MOD ever did and now with the ever approaching release of HL2 it looks like it may happen, that’s if Valve lets Flay license the HL engine, which is quite a possibility. The more people that play NS the better, that means more feedback, more ideas, and a better community; not to mention with the money Flayra would be making from NS witch would mean greater things for NS as a whole. You should be congratulating Flayra for the work he has done and the work he continues to do, and if it ever goes retail it's just an added bonus to an already great game. Flay deserves your support, not your scorn or you petty squabbling. I say thank you Flayra and I wish you the best of luck.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Correlation does not indicate causation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The core of most flawed logic in the universe. Anyway... Guess what kids, capitalism and commercialism WORK. But unfortunately most people don't understand or appreciate that fact until they can take advantage of the it. Valve is not Enron, and if Flay made a retail deal with Valve, it would be a negotiation, not some sort of demented "hostile takeover" of Flay Industries. Flayra has a vision for this game, whether it goes retail or not. Retail merely makes it easier. Do any of the doomsayers really believe that Flay would agree to a deal that basically summed up to "I will take it up the wazoo from Valve in exchange for truckloads of cash." Actually truckloads of cash does sound good, but odds are not.
It almost seems fashionable to scream "sell out" as a knee-jerk reaction to anything being successful or popular. I can't count how many bands have been labeled sell-out because they did well, and for little other reason as far as anyone can tell. Perhaps it's to retain that special feeling of a selective community, I can't say. My ultimate point is that just because Valve agrees to carry NS bound to its HL engine, doesn't give them some automatic say in where NS goes in the future. And just because NS goes retail doesn't prevent it from being free to download. People scream that CS and DoD are sell-outs, but you can still get them for FREE.
And as for CS being full of ****, that all depends on the server. I know 2 fantastic servers where the admins keep control and the community is generally top-notch. And as for retail, I mock people who buy CS retail for the same reason that I mock people who buy Redhat boxed off a store shelf. Dude, you can download both for FREEEEEEEE.
Seeing as I am the sole nay-sayer in the entire NS community I guess I'll keep on fighting.
Now let me make thing's perfectly clear so that everyone can understand what I am saying.
<b>I have absolute confidence in Flayra's vision for NS. I have absolutly zero confidence in Valve or any other company giving him complete free reign to shape NS to how he wants it</b>
Forget the whole CS thing, that's another debate. My central concern is simply that once a company buys a product, it has a certain level of influence over that product. Right now Flayra is free to alter NS how he chooses, implementing changes which he wants. Now who's to say he will have the same level of freedom once NS belongs to someone else? Of course, it's impossible for me to keep this up. Playing Devil's advocate is simply too taxing, because at the end of the day I just come off sounding like a total **** because it looks like I'm trying to say "Flayra shouldn't get paid". That's not what I mean at all, but it's what everyone sees. Believe me if I could pay Flayra 2 million and say "Go for your life" I would. I guess the only thing that annoys me is that we were all under the impression that this would never happen, thanks to the FAQ. Now it seems that all along Flayra was just getting the game ready for commercial release. I wouldn't have cared if only we'd been told from the outset. But, here I go again, sounding like a ****. Flame away boys; I know you all will.
Why are we even having a debate about NS retail? Is there anything wrong with spending money on the hard work needed to produce a game we all enjoy? Do you call the free sample lady at Publix a sellout because she won't give you the entire box of Ritz? I imagine that NS will still be a free download regardless of whether it is published, packaged, and sent to stores. Even if this turns out not to be true, 1.1 will still be free. From everything Flayra tells us, 1.1 will be the ultimate version anyway, so you won't need to pay for 1.2. I still see servers running 1.02. It's not like you won't be able to play NS ever again. It's a bit presumptuous to insult Flayra's integrity when you don't even know him. From what I've heard, Flayra quit his job at a game design company because noone would listen to his ideas. He left the company so he could make a great game without a corporate chokehold. I seriously doubt his plans in any way include bowing to publishers' biddings. The 1st fact of life is that money = continuation of life. The 2nd fact is that noone wants to part with that money. After all, who pays for CD's anymore? No matter how much we love NS, 90% of us wouldn't pay for it unless we had to. That's why Flayra has to twist our arms a little. Do we want to see this extremely engrossing and exciting MOD progress into greater popularity than even CS? Then why don't we all give it a rest and let the man do his thing?
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
edited June 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jun 12 2003, 11:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jun 12 2003, 11:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm finding it difficult to even understand where the nay-sayers are coming from on this issue.
To me it sounds like the argument is "If a game is in retail, it's a sellout and made only to make money and therefore a lesser product". You're saying that games with budgets are generally crappy then games without budgets? That's like saying that if music is popular, it's crappy. I actually used to think this, but I've come to realize that some really popular music is popular because it's great.
I fail to see how you're going to pay for my food or health insurance, both of which are in very short supply right now. As it is I've pumped a crapload of money into NS (it's a never-ending drain of cash) and even with Constellation, haven't even come close to coming out ahead.
The choice is clear: stop work on NS, or find a way to make it sustainable. If you think that getting funding is going to make me throw the game into the gutter, then you've got another thing coming. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I love you Flayra.
I don't see what everybody's problem with retail is. I mean, Half-Life sold stacks of copies. Ergo, it must be a totally crappy product, right?!?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I'd be ecstatic to discover that Flay was able to get income from making NS. What can be better than getting money for doing something you love?
How many people here have forked out money for videogames? (Go away, you warezmonkeys at the back.) How many of them were better than NS? Only a small few, I bet. So if you're willing to dish out money for all these games, why not for NS? I know I certainly am, especially considering funding for the game and sustainable income for Flay can only make the game better.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Jun 12 2003, 08:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Jun 12 2003, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess the only thing that annoys me is that we were all under the impression that this would never happen, thanks to the FAQ. Now it seems that all along Flayra was just getting the game ready for commercial release. I wouldn't have cared if only we'd been told from the outset. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nope, it wasn't always a secret plan we hid away from you, it's just the next logical step.
I have no intent or desire to make everyone play to pay for NS. The number one goal has been to get a game in this genre out to as many people as possible, and as such, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that if it goes to retail, it will always still be available for free. Believe me, trying to get a publisher to agree to this is not the easiest thing, and I'm sure it will mean a less good deal as well. However, I believe that NS should always be free, even if it is also in retail.
Lastly, I also hope to never have to give up the intellectual property to NS, which means it won't be taken over by some corporate drone that doesn't understand it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My central concern is simply that once a company buys a product, it has a certain level of influence over that product. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunately Ryo, you are committing one fatal logical flaw.
You are either... a) Attributing Valve with far more power than it has. b) Attributing Flayra with far more stupidity than he has.
Valve doesn't have to be the publisher, but Flayra would have to get permission from them (and they'd presumably want a cut, if they agreed) before NS could be a retail product.
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Flayra+Jun 13 2003, 01:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flayra @ Jun 13 2003, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I have no intent or desire to make everyone play to pay for NS. The number one goal has been to get a game in this genre out to as many people as possible, and as such, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that if it goes to retail, it will always still be available for free. Believe me, trying to get a publisher to agree to this is not the easiest thing, and I'm sure it will mean a less good deal as well. However, I believe that NS should always be free, even if it is also in retail. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What are your plans in that respect for the iteration of NS you mentioned in the interview (the persistent battle and such)? Do you want it to be a full retail game, or available for free? Or do you not have any plans at this time?
Comments
Oh, please, they were there in the first place, and they're already here. Even in this very forum.
What almost EVERYONE fails to note when it comes to CS and DoD going retail is that all the ****, all the cheaters, all the whatever... They were ALREADY THERE. Anytime you have -any- large group of people, you're going to have large amounts of less-than desirable people. The total online playerbase of Counter-Strike could account for EVERY PERSON IN NEW YORK CITY and then some! Does that mean I should never go there because of all the thieves, robbers, murderers, and general jerks? Hell no! Just like New York City, the online gaming communities have the great, friendly "neighborhoods" with great people, but also the seedier areas where you have to be careful. There are fantastic communities and sub-communities in CS and DoD, and plenty of them at that - Why should the jerks take precedence over these groups?
Quite frankly, people want a reason to hate something that's popular. Popularity means people 'lose' their shreds of individuality to actually like it. When it comes to CS and DoD, these were great mods with solid player bases that were fortunate enough to expand into the mainstream market. You can say retail "killed" CS and DoD all you want, but their player numbers are surging to new highs - Those two former mods are almost the #1 and #2 online games in terms of total players, CS annihilating all competition and DoD giving BF1942, MOH:AA, and UT2K3 solid runs for their money.
I've yet to see a solid reason why CS and DoD shouldn't have gone retail, and I've yet to see a reason why NS shouldn't, should the opportunity arise. Anything that happens I will back 100% of the way. I bought CS retail, I bought DoD retail, and if I couldn't manage NS retail for free, I'd buy it too. Hell, I'd probably buy a couple copies anyway. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Also, I don't think many of you even understand what the term "selling out" means. I hear it all the time on mod messege boards, and it more often than not sounds like whining. "Selling-out" is when someone completely goes back on their principles and promises in order to gain from something, most oftenly, money. Flayra has never said "NS will NEVER go retail ever, **** those corporate clownshoes! Wiggedy whack yo!". In my opinion people who complain about someone like Flayra "selling out" are nothing but selfish people who simply panic when their little clique is open for others to experience. Guys like Flayra work their hind quarters off to produce quality work like NS, but they are not recieving a steady paycheck for it. You can't live on coding for free. I would wager that the the people who claim "sell out" would put NS on the market if they were in Flay's position in a heartbeat.
See... I don't have paypal and I don't want to send a check half way the earth <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
One thing I was curious on. In the Flayra interview he said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The attention we've gotten from NS has opened up some new options for us though, so expect some exciting announcements in the future. Imagine an on-going persistent war, with many battles happening simultaneously, a full chain of command, outdoor battles, dropships and vehicles, battle-ranked commanders...watch this space. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but in the suggestions FAQ it says:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Things that will not be going into NS due to engine/game design constraints:
Another team/race
More alien evolutions (Which doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be new abilities, we just can't afford, say, six abilities per class.)
Vehicles/mechs
Secondary fire options<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and also...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ideas that have already been suggested, and have been popularly denied:
Promotions for marines
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The 'no promotions' and 'No Vehicles' (for different reasons) wont be in NS with the current Halflife engine.
Any ideas what this means or does it mean nothing?
Thanx,
If the goal of retail is to get these guys some good hard earned $, a better game and more ppl to play against I'm in. Cheater have always been around and will always be around. They were there way before CS went retail. And as far as I'm concerned both DoD and CS are still awesome games that have gotten better. The only bad thing i can think of about DoD that wont get fixed in 1.1 is the sniper.. but hey.. so be it.. it might even get fixed who knows.. but overall, it has gotten better due the influx of $$.
So deal and be happy that this mod might get even more popular!
If the goal of retail is to get these guys some good hard earned $, a better game and more ppl to play against I'm in. Cheater have always been around and will always be around. They were there way before CS went retail. And as far as I'm concerned both DoD and CS are still awesome games that have gotten better. The only bad thing i can think of about DoD that wont get fixed in 1.1 is the sniper.. but hey.. so be it.. it might even get fixed who knows.. but overall, it has gotten better due the influx of $$.
So deal and be happy that this mod might get even more popular! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you refering to me but if you were you got the wrong end of the stick.
I wasn't even refering to NS going retail <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whilst a classy pic, it doesn't really answer the issue at hand. I guess it comes down to how much Flayra wants to make a profit from NS; if he's happy to see himseld fired and his creation perhaps seized by his employers then perhaps he may emulate that pic. On the other hand, if the issue here seems to be money (and quite frankly I'm at a loss to understand what else this could be about) then having a steady job working as a programmer for a major software company is pretty hard to pass up. Who's to say Flayra wouldn't bend to his bosses wishes? I don't know, I'm not Flayra <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can say retail "killed" CS and DoD all you want, but their player numbers are surging to new highs - Those two former mods are almost the #1 and #2 online games in terms of total players, CS annihilating all competition and DoD giving BF1942, MOH:AA, and UT2K3 solid runs for their money.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's some nice competition. (sarcasm launch detected). Whilst I don't want to get into a CS debate here, I maintain that the central reason for CS's popularity has been it's lack of decent competition. It occupies a niche in the gameing world that has yet to be challanged, except by DoD. If by "killed" you think I mean profits are soaring and the makers are rolling in cash then no, it's not dead. If by "killed" I mean the once fun gameplay is leeched out then yes, they're dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What almost EVERYONE fails to note when it comes to CS and DoD going retail is that all the ****, all the cheaters, all the whatever... They were ALREADY THERE. Anytime you have -any- large group of people, you're going to have large amounts of less-than desirable people.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So why is it when I go from an NS server to a CS server, the average age seems to plumet 10 years, everyone accuses everyone else of "haXoring" and the general atmosphere is one of hostility and hatred? Where are these legions of CS lamers in the NS community? I'm seriously at a loss here; I know they exist because I can see them on the CS servers. Oh wait, there's a crucial differance here. CS IS RETAIL.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just like New York City, the online gaming communities have the great, friendly "neighborhoods" with great people, but also the seedier areas where you have to be careful.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's good parts of New York city? Perhaps I'll visit some day in my tank <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please please Flayra if it's money you want say the word and we'll donate! Just please don't throw our beloved game to the ravenous cheaters and immature pre-teens who ruined CS!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree with this. I think the CS players are us. When I play CS I certainly act like one of those a**holes. It's not the large community that brings this out of me it's the game. It's just so frustrating and competitive that it makes you go berserk. It's different with NS, it's based on teamplay.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Imagine an on-going persistent war, with many battles happening simultaneously, a full chain of command, outdoor battles, dropships and vehicles, battle-ranked commanders...watch this space.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I whole heartedly support the ongoing efforts of Flayra and the NS Team, and I don't mean to be picky or pessimistic, but this idea sounds like a rip off of the MMOFPS Planetside. And it sounds like Kharra would be at a major disadvantage because there are no vents out in the wilderness, and I couldn't imagine a Fade cruisin through the swamp in a Humvee. <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
To me it sounds like the argument is "If a game is in retail, it's a sellout and made only to make money and therefore a lesser product". You're saying that games with budgets are generally crappy then games without budgets? That's like saying that if music is popular, it's crappy. I actually used to think this, but I've come to realize that some really popular music is popular because it's great.
I fail to see how you're going to pay for my food or health insurance, both of which are in very short supply right now. As it is I've pumped a crapload of money into NS (it's a never-ending drain of cash) and even with Constellation, haven't even come close to coming out ahead.
The choice is clear: stop work on NS, or find a way to make it sustainable. If you think that getting funding is going to make me throw the game into the gutter, then you've got another thing coming.
Besides, I can't feel guilty, I'm in the constellation program. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I just wish I could do more that didn't require monentary objects. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's some nice competition. (sarcasm launch detected). Whilst I don't want to get into a CS debate here, I maintain that the central reason for CS's popularity has been it's lack of decent competition. It occupies a niche in the gameing world that has yet to be challanged, except by DoD. If by "killed" you think I mean profits are soaring and the makers are rolling in cash then no, it's not dead. If by "killed" I mean the once fun gameplay is leeched out then yes, they're dead.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upwards of 100,000 people are often playing Counter-Strike at any given moment. Day of Defeat has just recently topped the 6,000 mark which few newer retail games can come close to.
It would seem plenty of people still find them fun - You do NOT speak for the 8 million+ Half-Life player base. Of course, your little "sarcasm" mention would seem to imply that you don't find -any- of the top played FPS games to be fun, which makes me wonder why you're even around if every game out there is so crappy - which, intentional or not, is the attitude you convey.
You can get into how smaller games with smaller player bases are so much better, but with no player bases the games simply cannot survive extended periods of time as the "mainstay" titles do. Not to mention that when the **** get into these communities, the entire player base can collapse and disperse, as I've seen happen twice.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
So why is it when I go from an NS server to a CS server, the average age seems to plumet 10 years, everyone accuses everyone else of "haXoring" and the general atmosphere is one of hostility and hatred? Where are these legions of CS lamers in the NS community? I'm seriously at a loss here; I know they exist because I can see them on the CS servers. Oh wait, there's a crucial differance here. CS IS RETAIL.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no one difference to blame. You have any idea how many tiny mods have absolutely crap communities? Can you imagine an entire mod's player base collapsing because of 2 jackasses? I've seen FAR worse than CS in non-retail mods and in other games. There's also a little fact that most people overlook in making these comparisons which is (*gasp*)... NS is NOT CS. The level of complexity in itself drives a lot of these people off, but that doesn't mean they're not still around or that NS is any better off non-retail. And, again, I imagine you're playing on the right servers for NS and the wrong servers for CS. I used to play CS in a clan setting and mainly frequented about 4-5 servers. They were all great. Even now, I know of a number that have great close-knit player communities and friendly atmospheres. I've heard PLENTY of horror stories from NS servers to know that we're hardly uneffected. What you see is not all that occurs.
Anyway, that last paragraph (and this sentence) is moot; I'll leave you with the one single point that is relevant: <b>Correlation does not indicate causation</b>. The logical framework of saying "CS has annoying players and CS is retail, therefore going retail will bring in a huge flood of annoying players" is the same logical flow that gives us "Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold killed people and they played video games, therefore video games make people kill people."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
There's good parts of New York city? Perhaps I'll visit some day in my tank
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prove my point, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> You have this mentality of it being so horrible that you refuse to see what's so great about it. I spent a week in New York City a couple years ago (May of 2001) and it was an absolute blast. The place is amazing on so many levels... the buildings, the people, the culture, etc. etc. Get out of your tank for a second, in New York -or- CS/DoD, and you might see what I mean.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Correlation does not indicate causation.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The core of most flawed logic in the universe. Anyway... Guess what kids, capitalism and commercialism WORK. But unfortunately most people don't understand or appreciate that fact until they can take advantage of the it. Valve is not Enron, and if Flay made a retail deal with Valve, it would be a negotiation, not some sort of demented "hostile takeover" of Flay Industries. Flayra has a vision for this game, whether it goes retail or not. Retail merely makes it easier. Do any of the doomsayers really believe that Flay would agree to a deal that basically summed up to "I will take it up the wazoo from Valve in exchange for truckloads of cash." Actually truckloads of cash does sound good, but odds are not.
It almost seems fashionable to scream "sell out" as a knee-jerk reaction to anything being successful or popular. I can't count how many bands have been labeled sell-out because they did well, and for little other reason as far as anyone can tell. Perhaps it's to retain that special feeling of a selective community, I can't say. My ultimate point is that just because Valve agrees to carry NS bound to its HL engine, doesn't give them some automatic say in where NS goes in the future. And just because NS goes retail doesn't prevent it from being free to download. People scream that CS and DoD are sell-outs, but you can still get them for FREE.
And as for CS being full of ****, that all depends on the server. I know 2 fantastic servers where the admins keep control and the community is generally top-notch. And as for retail, I mock people who buy CS retail for the same reason that I mock people who buy Redhat boxed off a store shelf. Dude, you can download both for FREEEEEEEE.
Now let me make thing's perfectly clear so that everyone can understand what I am saying.
<b>I have absolute confidence in Flayra's vision for NS. I have absolutly zero confidence in Valve or any other company giving him complete free reign to shape NS to how he wants it</b>
Forget the whole CS thing, that's another debate. My central concern is simply that once a company buys a product, it has a certain level of influence over that product. Right now Flayra is free to alter NS how he chooses, implementing changes which he wants. Now who's to say he will have the same level of freedom once NS belongs to someone else?
Of course, it's impossible for me to keep this up. Playing Devil's advocate is simply too taxing, because at the end of the day I just come off sounding like a total **** because it looks like I'm trying to say "Flayra shouldn't get paid". That's not what I mean at all, but it's what everyone sees. Believe me if I could pay Flayra 2 million and say "Go for your life" I would.
I guess the only thing that annoys me is that we were all under the impression that this would never happen, thanks to the FAQ. Now it seems that all along Flayra was just getting the game ready for commercial release. I wouldn't have cared if only we'd been told from the outset. But, here I go again, sounding like a ****. Flame away boys; I know you all will.
To me it sounds like the argument is "If a game is in retail, it's a sellout and made only to make money and therefore a lesser product". You're saying that games with budgets are generally crappy then games without budgets? That's like saying that if music is popular, it's crappy. I actually used to think this, but I've come to realize that some really popular music is popular because it's great.
I fail to see how you're going to pay for my food or health insurance, both of which are in very short supply right now. As it is I've pumped a crapload of money into NS (it's a never-ending drain of cash) and even with Constellation, haven't even come close to coming out ahead.
The choice is clear: stop work on NS, or find a way to make it sustainable. If you think that getting funding is going to make me throw the game into the gutter, then you've got another thing coming. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love you Flayra.
I don't see what everybody's problem with retail is. I mean, Half-Life sold stacks of copies. Ergo, it must be a totally crappy product, right?!?
I think we all know the answer to that question.
I'd be ecstatic to discover that Flay was able to get income from making NS. What can be better than getting money for doing something you love?
How many people here have forked out money for videogames? (Go away, you warezmonkeys at the back.) How many of them were better than NS? Only a small few, I bet. So if you're willing to dish out money for all these games, why not for NS? I know I certainly am, especially considering funding for the game and sustainable income for Flay can only make the game better.
Think about it, people.
I guess the only thing that annoys me is that we were all under the impression that this would never happen, thanks to the FAQ. Now it seems that all along Flayra was just getting the game ready for commercial release. I wouldn't have cared if only we'd been told from the outset. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nope, it wasn't always a secret plan we hid away from you, it's just the next logical step.
I have no intent or desire to make everyone play to pay for NS. The number one goal has been to get a game in this genre out to as many people as possible, and as such, I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that if it goes to retail, it will always still be available for free. Believe me, trying to get a publisher to agree to this is not the easiest thing, and I'm sure it will mean a less good deal as well. However, I believe that NS should always be free, even if it is also in retail.
Lastly, I also hope to never have to give up the intellectual property to NS, which means it won't be taken over by some corporate drone that doesn't understand it.
Unfortunately Ryo, you are committing one fatal logical flaw.
You are either...
a) Attributing Valve with far more power than it has.
b) Attributing Flayra with far more stupidity than he has.
Here's the relevant Half-Life SDK license text:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->* Copyright © 1996-2002, Valve LLC. All rights reserved.
*
* This product contains software technology licensed from Id
* Software, Inc. ("Id Technology"). Id Technology © 1996 Id Software, Inc.
* All Rights Reserved.
*
* Use, distribution, and modification of this source code and/or resulting
* object code is restricted to non-commercial enhancements to products from
* Valve LLC. All other use, distribution, or modification is prohibited
* without written permission from Valve LLC.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What are your plans in that respect for the iteration of NS you mentioned in the interview (the persistent battle and such)? Do you want it to be a full retail game, or available for free? Or do you not have any plans at this time?