<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines automatically start with LMG and pistol, as they do now. However, the armory allows for a few more things.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd like to expand on this. Maybe, each weapon (except LMG and pistol) needs to be researched. Once the shotgun is researched (or available), the short ranged class become available. Same thing with flamethrower->seige class. Without the weapons, the classes won't appear on the class menu.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clicking on the armory allows you to "research" weapons one at a time, a la pretty much every other RTS you can think of. It would be like Starcraft, you can only "produce" one weapon at a time, but can quae several more to be built afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also pointed out that the commander should also be able to recycle weapons. Instead of left-clicking, he right-clicks to recycle (which also takes time).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any weapon that is produced appears on one of the four sides of the armory, and can be picked up my marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However there are more than 4 weapons (excluding knife): LMG, pistol, welder, shotgun, HMG, flamethrower, and GL. But your idea would work if the armory was class-specific. For ex, one side of the armory would give out HMGs to the long ranged class. The same side would give out GLs to the seige class. The trickiest part is displaying this information.
Another idea: Armory gives out basic weapons ONLY while Advanced Armory gives out advanced weapons ONLY. If this may make it inconvenient though because the armory must be upgraded. To counter this problem, maybe the advanced armory should just be a new placable structure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to produce advanced weaponry, you would first have to have an armory. Then, you would have to build a separate, advanced armory. Once the advanced armory is up, you can choose to research 1 of the 3 weapons or produce if one if available. Just to make things not TOO slow, you can research and build at the same time (so if you have HMG, you can continue to produce as your research grenade launcher). Then you can produce those weapons at the advanced armory for a higher price (15, 18, 21, or something like that). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know there's a 1.1 tech tree somewhere here, but I'm too lazy to find it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, I think the arms lab is required to build the advanced armory. If this is so, the advanced weapon research stuff can be put on the arms lab. This would also create an interesting twist. Should I research weapon improvements or advanced weapons?
Maybe shotguns should be available either as an upgrade on the armory or available once an armory is built.
Flamethrowers are a tricky issue. They can't be too powerful or else they would have to higher tech, which would delay the seige class.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dropping weapons around the armory is still a viable option, as well. The former production option allows for weapons to be produced slowly and one after the other, but for a cheaper price. However, for around double the price (like 7 for the shotgun, for example) the commander can instantly drop a gun around the armory as he does now. This would be useful for getting guns out quickly for a rush, or for quickly dishing out heat if it's needed to guard against an unsuspected alien attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure about this part. If the commander wants to do a rush, maybe he should place 2 armories down and mass produce shotguns.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The commander would be able to see what gun a person has next to their name in the TAB menu (like aliens can see player classes), so that he doesn't distribute too many of one type of gun out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would be too hard to pack all that info there. An idea I had earlier was to copy the Warcraft/Starcraft unit selection system - where all those 12 unit icons are at the bottom of the GUI. More info can probably be packed there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe there could be some sort of option which would allow the commander to restrict a person to a certain type of gun so that a bad player doesn't get his hands on a flamethrower, for example, but then again that would both be complex in practice and would impede on peoples' freedom of choice desire (which seems to be an issue with more people than I originally thought).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find commander-based penalty systems problematic. A marine who is penalized by his commander would blame his commander. A marine penalized by the game mechanics can't blame anyone.
Some other stuff:
How about this: seige turrets can only be built by the seige class. That would make them more useful and less redundant.
Welders should be available to all classes. Versatility is still important.
In fact, versatility may be important enough that this class system be scrapped and the spawn system salvaged. Instead of choosing their class, marines choose which weapon/armor they wish to spawn with. More food for thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With my newest post, I basically scrapped the whole player classes idea in favor of simplicity. Insetad of having the players belong to classes per se, the guns belong to classes. So all you have is guns, and prices for guns.
There's 4 basic guns - LMG, pistol, shotgun, flamethrower. The pistol is standard issue equipment, every person will have one, but it is available for purchase in the case that a player has been given a welder, and doesn't want it anymore. The LMG is also standard issue, and a nice middle-ground gun at that. The LMGer is pretty much good for everything, but excels at nothing. Once again, LMG's are available for purchase only in the case that a player has gotten another weapon (i.e. shotgun) and wants the LMG instead.
And I don't think you read my post well enough, as I made the advanced armory a completely separate buildable structure apart from the regular armory. Also, the advanced armory is where all the advanced guns are bought (HMG, flachette, grenade launcher) while the armory covers the basic guns. Just as you said <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As far as the flamthrower goes, I just want to make it clear that I intend for this weapon to be a POWERFUL anti-structure weapon. One person sustaining flames on a offensive chamber for around 3 seconds, for example, should be enough to demolish it (wheras it would take around 3 LMG'ers to destroy it in the same time). The problem is getting the flamethrower there. Then you get the grenade launcher, which sis like a nice upgrade to the flamethrower. With the grenade launcher, you can both lob the grenades aroudn corners and avoid comign in the chamber's line of fire, and attack multiple chambers at once with the large blast radius. So the siege class isn't exactly redundant, it just takes the most teamwork to be put to use. That said, making the siege class the only class to be able to build siege guns would be BAD. I don't like restricting building to any particular player.
As far as the TAB menu interface would go, it wouldn't be too hard to get that info in there. You know how you see GORG for gorges, or FADE for fade players? Well, you could see LMG for lmg-wielders, SHOT for shotguns, FLME for flamethrowers, HMG for HMG's, FLAK for flachette cannons, and GREN for grenade launchers. Simple enough.
Welders are WAY too powerful to be standard issue. There's a reason I specifically made them still "droppable"-only. They can weld structures, player armor (MAJOR benefit for HA), and open new paths. That's a lot of benefits for standard-issue equipment, or even cheaply buyable equipment. I want welders to remain somewhat limited in distribution, just as they are in 1.04 and 1.1.
Oh sorry, I misunderstood your post <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I guess we're agreed then.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the flamthrower goes, I just want to make it clear that I intend for this weapon to be a POWERFUL anti-structure weapon. One person sustaining flames on a offensive chamber for around 3 seconds, for example, should be enough to demolish it (wheras it would take around 3 LMG'ers to destroy it in the same time). The problem is getting the flamethrower there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think 3 seconds is rather extreme. Flamethrowers would already have other uses: it would accomplish area denial even better than the GL and would be the "counter" to aliens using vents.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the TAB menu interface would go, it wouldn't be too hard to get that info in there. You know how you see GORG for gorges, or FADE for fade players? Well, you could see LMG for lmg-wielders, SHOT for shotguns, FLME for flamethrowers, HMG for HMG's, FLAK for flachette cannons, and GREN for grenade launchers. Simple enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is: what about HA and JP information? That's just as important as the type of weapon they're using.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Welders are WAY too powerful to be standard issue. There's a reason I specifically made them still "droppable"-only. They can weld structures, player armor (MAJOR benefit for HA), and open new paths. That's a lot of benefits for standard-issue equipment, or even cheaply buyable equipment. I want welders to remain somewhat limited in distribution, just as they are in 1.04 and 1.1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean that welders are free. I was thinking you were talking about the class system - welders should've been available to all classes (not class restricted).
I'm still firm in my belief. Give the marine a symbol next to his name corresponding on his weapon loadout. The commander will know what player has Heavy armour and HMG in my system, because he would have to authorize it. The weapons will be picked up from the armoury for free, so long as the commander has researched the weapon. Chopper Dave's idea is starting to sound more and more like my own.
What is the current issue? Marine responses to alien threats is for the most part static. The options are limited to what the commander has dropped for the marine to use, and most often is just vanilla LMG and a lot of damage upgrades. If you let the commander guide the path of specialization, and then let the grunts fill in their niche of expertice within what has been researched, then you have a bevy of flexability opened up to the marine team.
Also: you could allow a commander to "lock" weapons in an armoury for 30 seconds, that way the entire marine team dosent just grab whatever weapon they wish. Mines should cost 1 rp per mine, and have a limited stock (10 per armoury) that slowly regenerates.
Why does flexability matter? Because now you will have diversified marine groups. Dual-Pistols run ahead and cause major damage to surprised marines, LMG grunts follow closley, accompanied by shotgunners to provide CQB coverage. As the alien team aquires higher life forms, shotguns are dropped for lmg and eventually hmg. If the aliens preferr smaller life forms and more upgrades, swithc to flamethrower to flush out the cloaked/carapaced skulks. Use hand grenades in tandem with motion tracking to make quick advances in the eearly game. The options are more fluid when you give the grunt more control over his destiny.
An armory menu would be inconvenient. I think Chopper Dave's solution is good enough:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any weapon that is produced appears on one of the four sides of the armory, and can be picked up my marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines won't be too deadly when they spawn with this.
However, I wish there was a way for aliens to destroy weapons. If those weapons are laying beside the armory, a clever skulk should be able to go there and destroy some weapons. If a way to destroy weapons is implemented, the 1.04 30 second weapon disappear limit and the 1.1 death=no weapon dropped can be thrown out. What do you think?
Your ideas are all very deep and sound like a lot of fun. But I dont know if I can really say I would enjoy the game as much if that was implement. I loved the armory researching the weapons, but I love the ability to give a weapon to a selected troop just as much.
I dont know if I can really go with the class idea. By getting a weapon, you become a class. You really dont need any sort of designation.
And the spawing with certain weapons sounds interesting.
I just love the current system a lot. Still, I wish there was a way to try this out and see what and how it plays. It could actually be more fun, but it could also change the game so much that the original idea was lost.
I think being able to destroy the armory, and any weapons that happen to be hung on it, should be good enough. That's what I was aiming for when I made the "Advanced Armory" completely separate from the "Armory" - aliens could rush in and eat either one to disrupt marine weapon distribution.
As far as Freemantle's ideas go, I'm still firm in my belief that the commander should be responsible for all res spending on the marine team. I really don't want to marines to be responsible for anything past choosing to pick up or to not pick up a weapon bought and dropped by the commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think being able to destroy the armory, and any weapons that happen to be hung on it, should be good enough. That's what I was aiming for when I made the "Advanced Armory" completely separate from the "Armory" - aliens could rush in and eat either one to disrupt marine weapon distribution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That would work <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Though I'd still like weapons to be destroyable objects.
I suggest you post a new "edition" of this thread with all the revised changes, because as evident in Ben128's post, people are getting confused.
Maybe those basic weapons should be balanced so that they are equally powerfull and all free. Then players could have freedom to choose (they would select from some menu which gun they want when they spawn) but their selections wouldnt use teams resources.
Commander then researches advanced weapons (if he wants) from armory or arms lab. You only get advanced stuff (includes ha and jp) and welders and mines if commander drops them for you. He can also drop basic guns to quickly respond to changing situations.
This would be more or less EU-type lame compromise but wouldnt have so many problems. Only problem would be all players wanting for some reason to have same gun so marines would have to decide who takes what gun. That could be problem especially on public servers.
advanced weapons should also be more specialized so that basic guns would be needed to support them.
Its midnight here and Im damn tired. And because my English skills suck it takes eternity to type anything. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe I should just stay quiet <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Chopper Dave: In my idea, the marines have no influence on res spending. Getting a weapon from the armoury is completely free of charge, but the commander must have researched it.
It is kind of like the research system in Science and Industry, but instead of voting on what research and picking up oodles of guns, the commander will reseach it and the marine will only be able to carry one loadout at a time.
Some of the items will have to be individualy authorized for purchase (Mines... Jetpack.... Heavy Armour). Higher flexability without sacrificing command strategy.
It also works in with your thought on armouries being "chomp worthy". Imagine what would happen if a terrorist blew up your buy menu in counterstrike. It will cause a major stall in marine advancement (but obviously less so than chomping and infntry portal).
Some sort of distinction is nessisary, that way the marine team knoews what they are carrying, and so the commander can lean his team's tendancies and put the right people in the right places.
How about having the commander specify how many of each type there will be beforehand? He then can change the balance dynamically for whatever game situation he faces. The marines could then have a hotkey menu screen (similar to cs radio commands) that says "Spawn as this class", as long as there is space within that class, the marine is allowed to.
For example, if the commander says, I want 4 long range, 3 short range and 1 siege out of a team of eight and NSPlayer wants to be a short range and chooses short range from his menu, the game checks, realizes there is only 2 currently and he is then allowed to take the class.
This would be similar to capping snipers, or engies in TFC. No one stopped playing that just because there were already too many engineers, they just took a different class.
I think this would keep the marines happy, because they would have some control over what class they played within the commanders overall strategy. This way, the players could work out what they wanted to take. If someone had a reputation of being very talented with seige weaponry, then the players would like be friendly to him using it, etc.
Well if you wanna give the marines a counter to onos/fade then look no farther than <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=34909' target='_blank'>here</a>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In my idea, the marines have no influence on res spending. Getting a weapon from the armoury is completely free of charge, but the commander must have researched it.
It is kind of like the research system in Science and Industry, but instead of voting on what research and picking up oodles of guns, the commander will reseach it and the marine will only be able to carry one loadout at a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making weapons free once researched (even if it takes lots of time and res) will open a whole can of worms. If the marines hold off aliens off long enough, they would have the upper advantage in the late game because they will have so much res. This isn't a pure research game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about having the commander specify how many of each type there will be beforehand? He then can change the balance dynamically for whatever game situation he faces. The marines could then have a hotkey menu screen (similar to cs radio commands) that says "Spawn as this class", as long as there is space within that class, the marine is allowed to.
For example, if the commander says, I want 4 long range, 3 short range and 1 siege out of a team of eight and NSPlayer wants to be a short range and chooses short range from his menu, the game checks, realizes there is only 2 currently and he is then allowed to take the class.
This would be similar to capping snipers, or engies in TFC. No one stopped playing that just because there were already too many engineers, they just took a different class.
I think this would keep the marines happy, because they would have some control over what class they played within the commanders overall strategy. This way, the players could work out what they wanted to take. If someone had a reputation of being very talented with seige weaponry, then the players would like be friendly to him using it, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first idea after reading this thread, but I scrapped it because it would difficult to display. Cluttered interfaces = bad interface. If you suggest a good way of displaying this info and an easy and intuitive way for the commander to adjust, I'll change my mind <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
While I hear people say that marines don't have as many options as the aliens do, I would beg to differ.
Lately you see jp/hmg rushes on the hives, as this seems to be the hardest to counter as the aliens. Add to this weapon upgrades and a hive falls quite quickly.
But not only do you have jetpacks, but heavy armor. Properly used in a team, HA makes a group of marines practically immortal. (Welding/occasional meds from comm). Armed with a GL, perhaps a couple HMGs, that's a dangerous lot. However, that doens't leave as much res for upgrades.
Or, the marines could go siege. Setup shop outside the hive room, get some phasegates going, level 1 weapons/armor, get some sentry turrets up to support the troops and even maybe a few mines. Boom boom, the hive goes splat.
Not to mention rush tactics- shottie rushes or go strait for HMG's and a couple weapon upgrades and just run in shooting. Rambo like and risky, but it's all about the fun.
As of 1.04, it's pretty much set for aliens to have Defense chambers at first hive, movement second, etc. An easy counter to carapace is weapon upgrades- which I see marines shoot straight for level 2 weapons before armor or MT or anything else. If aliens would be brave enough to try sensory first (and darnit, I'm with Flayra on this) weapon upgrades wouldn't be as useful. If you don't see your attacker, how can you shoot it? Motion tracking and armor is your best bet here.
What about movement? A speedy skulk is hard to hit. And a quiet stalker to scare the crap out of you can be as bad as an invisible one. But all I see are gun-ho aliens wanting to rush in chomping away. Not very tactical if you ask me.
While the idea of classes sounds fun, I personally don't believe it has a place in NS. If the alien players would be open to explore their strategies- I think you'd begin to see the marine counters. They DO have a lot of options, if you just look.
<!--QuoteBegin--Maian+Jun 14 2003, 03:50 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Jun 14 2003, 03:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Making weapons free once researched (even if it takes lots of time and res) will open a whole can of worms. If the marines hold off aliens off long enough, they would have the upper advantage in the late game because they will have so much res. This isn't a pure research game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As I stated in the original post, for this to work the HMG would have to be trimmed slightly. We already see points in games of 1.04 where no marine leaves the base without an HMG. Aliens still win against that showing of firepower with cunning and teamwork.
A much better sense of balance could be achieved if the aliens advance quickly as individuals, and the marines advance more slowly as a team. There really isn't much resource loss, considering that the alien team honsestly uses very little resources (exempting the gorge), and gets resources for each marine kill.
This should also speed up the metagame considerably, as each new research item noticably raises marine tech up a tier. Many more tactics should become viable, and personal responsability will begin to fall on the marines. Commandes will no longer feel like they wasted 18 res when the man they just gave a shotgun to walked out the door and got jumped.
Aliens will be forced to vary their attacks more and use stealth over upgrade speed when the middle and late game approaches (unless they ahve been good little kharra and cut the TSA off from resources).
Supermunchkin, I don't think you understood my rant too well.
You see, the problem isn't that the marine's options aren't there. It's just that those options are slow, hard to pull off effectively, and generally ineffective.
Let's stick with your example of carapace and upgraded weapons, for example. Say the aliens lay down three defense towers, which doesn't really take much longer than 30 seconds usually, and 42 resources in 1.4 (I think it's 60 in 1.1?). In order to compensate for carapace, marines need to develop around level 2 weapons. First that means getting an IP and an armory if they havent already, which is around 47 resources. Then they need to get an arms lab, 45 resources. Then they need to get level 1 weapons, 20 resources, around a minute of dev time. Then level 2, 40 resources, around 3 (I don't know actual time). That's around 150 resources and 5 minutes of gametime to effectively counter what the aliens have put up in 30 seconds, with 42/60 resources. Oh yeah, in that five minutes the marines spent trying to level the playing field, the aliens have already gotten well on their way to hive #2 and some nicer evolutions to boot. And because all those res were spent on upgrades, theres no HMG, HA, or JP in sight.
Continuing onward, let's say the reverse occurs. Marines spend every last resource they can to jumpstart their weapons to level 2, and during this entire 5-7 minute period, aliens do nothing to counter it. What are the poor aliens to do? Oh, well, they could spend 42/60 resources and drop 3 defense towers, all in the time of about 30 seconds, and BAM - those level 2 weapons are meaningless, and the aliens have just brought things back to where they were basically in the beginning of the game.
What I'm getting at is that anythign the marines research can be countered by the aliens in about 30 seconds, with minimal resource expenditure. Marines can counter somethign the aliens research in around 5 minutes, with a ton of resource expenditure. Not exactly fair, if you think about it. Marines are losing 99% of the 1.1 games, as I hear (though I haven't heard anything from the tests of newer versions).
And now with 1.1, such alien counters even extend to the holy grails of marine tech - the HA and the jetpack. Marines rush the HA? By the time a HA+HMG team is assembled, aliens have enough Onos to bring the entire team to its knees. Jetpacks rushed, and an entire team outfitted? Then the entire alien team evolves to the lerk - it's only 17-something res, and it's now easier to shoot down marines with spikes then EVER before!
Not to say that a HA team can decimate any alien team, hands down. It's just the time it takes to get to that point, and the amount of prediction and luck it takes on the commander's part, that's the problem.
What I am asking for is for the marines to have a decent way to counter alien developments, just as easily as the aliens counter marine developments. Are the aliens whoring carapace? Then distribute shotguns. And no, you can't do that in the current versions - seriously, how often is the 15-res shotgun EVER bought instead of upgrades? Seeing too many onos on the field? Then get those flachette cannons out there to deal with them. Fades rocketing everything from a distance? Get some HMG's (with their new and improved smaller firing cone) out there to counter it. The game would just become more RTS like, with the team who is best at attacking and countering enemy attacks winning.
<!--QuoteBegin--Freemantle+Jun 14 2003, 05:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Freemantle @ Jun 14 2003, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We already see points in games of 1.04 where no marine leaves the base without an HMG. Aliens still win against that showing of firepower with cunning and teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So thus we can conclude that Marines = American Army floundering around in Iraq thinking that Technology will save them and the Kharran Guerrilla Front = The Iraqi "Terrorists" who are actually using simple Guerrilla tactics against a foe that would level them in conventional combat.
Or put more simply, Marines are stupid, Aliens will continue to rock.
<!--QuoteBegin--LazerMane+Jun 14 2003, 06:09 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (LazerMane @ Jun 14 2003, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Freemantle+Jun 14 2003, 05:11 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Freemantle @ Jun 14 2003, 05:11 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We already see points in games of 1.04 where no marine leaves the base without an HMG. Aliens still win against that showing of firepower with cunning and teamwork. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So thus we can conclude that Marines = American Army floundering around in Iraq thinking that Technology will save them and the Kharran Guerrilla Front = The Iraqi "Terrorists" who are actually using simple Guerrilla tactics against a foe that would level them in conventional combat.
Or put more simply, Marines are stupid, Aliens will continue to rock.
LM <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I said cunning and teamwork, not blind fanatacisim and demoralized troops.
Now now, we've gotten this far without degenerating into off-topic-ness. Let's try to keep it going a little longer. Or if you're going to get off-topic, at least don't go off on the Gulf War Dos tangent.
Actually, Aliens doen't get immediate resources to drop 3 Defense chambers- in fact I see marine weapon upgrades (at least to level 1) before defense chambers go up. After all, marines start with a hefty sum of res to use- while aliens get 10 apiece. All of which goes towards going gorge for that one alien.
That being said, it IS the aliens who should have the counter abilities. Because marines have first chance to pick what route they are going to take. After all, the marines are coming in and attacking the aliens, and they are responding to the threat. That's the way the story goes, as well as play mode. Yes it takes a while for the marines to research their counter abilities- but if it was immediate the aliens would stand little chance early game. The marines are ranged fighters, and if they were always capable of having the perfect alien strategy counter available to them in "30 seconds"- I don't think I'd enjoy that game as an alien.
My main beef with the class system in NS, is that it makes the Marines and Aliens feel too similar. The marines were never meant to have quick adaptation to the aliens, so I don't see the need for classes. An interesting idea, but one I don't see falling into NS. But, who knows eh?
Aliens start out with 20 resources in 1.1 the last time I checked. And the aliens would still be more volatile than marines, even if weapons research is implemented. With the marine team being forced to load out in base with some sort of plan, the kharra team can easily spot them incoming, communicate and evolve. The real thing is, the marines can switch stratagies quick, but they have less flexability in the field. Weapon research allows the marin team to suffer losses, then regroup and try to hit the kharra from a totally different angle. And keep in mind hivesight totally rocks when it comes to orginazation. Marines often times are getting their Infantry Portal's chomped and never know (save the comm typing in all caps "MAIN BASE! MAIN BASE!!!!11").
Yes, I still really want the marines to have to rely completely on the commander. So while marines have counters, you'd have to have a pretty sharp commander to get the counters cycled out intot he actual troops.
As an alien, as soon as you die, you can counter. If you got killed by an HMG because you chose carapace and got slowed down too much, then you can choose celerity this time instead. Bam, you've countered the marines. Giving marines a similar system, where they can counter something an alien does "in 30 seconds," wouldn't be THAT devastating for the alien team, because the commander still has to do everything. The aliens still can coutner stuff on an individual basis, with the benefit of hivesight, and thsus will alwasy react much more quickly. If the commander can spot a weakness and distribute a counter THAT fast, then the marines really should have a significant advantage.
If the marines have access to most weapons, they can counter aliens fairly well. In fact, they can be too powerful, because some of their weapons counter too much (such as the HMG). The problem is that this is late game, and late game implies that the commander is VERY busy - too busy to bother dropping weapons for marines. Currently, to counteract this, the commander will drop a lot of weapons down. However, this is inconvenenient, messy, and inelegant (IMO).
My suggestion makes it easier to "spam" weapons as described before (the commander just needs to queue up a bunch of weapons icon and instead of click and drop repeatedly) and introduces build times. The build times is an added "cost" of making the weapon, so the weapon res costs should be decreased. This in turn makes it easier to queue up multiple weapons. In addition, this introduces a new tactic of building multiple armories to build weapons faster. The marines still rely on the commander, aren't overpowered when they spawn (as they were with the original idea), and can get weapons more easily without bugging the commander. The commander in turn can focus on more important issues.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A much better sense of balance could be achieved if the aliens advance quickly as individuals, and the marines advance more slowly as a team. There really isn't much resource loss, considering that the alien team honsestly uses very little resources (exempting the gorge), and gets resources for each marine kill.
This should also speed up the metagame considerably, as each new research item noticably raises marine tech up a tier. Many more tactics should become viable, and personal responsability will begin to fall on the marines. Commandes will no longer feel like they wasted 18 res when the man they just gave a shotgun to walked out the door and got jumped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that at late game, aliens will be losing resources while marines aren't. Then the marines can simply use their massive supply of res to build turret farms and seige outposts like crazy - all the while the marines are touting high end weapons for free. Early game would also favor aliens because they are much more versatile (in 1.1) then. Although your idea gets rid of begging marines, I don't think it's worth it.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Is Flayra reading this? I really like these ideas.
Heck, I'll even take the idea of different classes for the marines if none of the revised ideas happen to work out. I mean, sometimes I dO feel that I'd like this game to be more like warcraft3 than a fps. I'm still missing a lot of the RTS portion right now.
And heres an additional idea: If a rine has gotten ashottie, wich he doesn´t want (can´t think, why, but h*** there might be some people who do) or a Flamethrower, wich is a better point, he can go to the armory and get his free LMG, as said before, but his current weapons isn´t lost, but stored in the armory. The next Guy who wants a FT can get it from there. This would also make a twisting strategy without loosing too much res viable, since everything you bought before is stored and may be used again, if necessary.
The same goes for JP and HA, they are stored in the Protolab, so if one is base defending with HA, but the Frontline needs another soldier, he gets out of his HA, puts it in the Proto, gets gimself a shottie and a JP and there he goes!
All weapons dropped in the placement area of the Armory, should disappear and be stored within! This is already possible with PGs (wich store medpacs and ammokits , in a mod), why shouldn´t it be possible with weapons and an armory.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All weapons dropped in the placement area of the Armory, should disappear and be stored within! This is already possible with PGs (wich store medpacs and ammokits , in a mod), why shouldn´t it be possible with weapons and an armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. It also has an odd side effect if marines drop weapons upon death (currently they don't in 1.1 beta). Whenever the weapons drop, even on death, they would be sent to the nearest armory. Now this might mean that marines will be able to hold out indefinitely against aliens, but recall that destroying the armory destroys all weapons. It might balance out - and makes the armory a more viable option to siege (more choices = winnar! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)
Comments
I'd like to expand on this. Maybe, each weapon (except LMG and pistol) needs to be researched. Once the shotgun is researched (or available), the short ranged class become available. Same thing with flamethrower->seige class. Without the weapons, the classes won't appear on the class menu.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clicking on the armory allows you to "research" weapons one at a time, a la pretty much every other RTS you can think of. It would be like Starcraft, you can only "produce" one weapon at a time, but can quae several more to be built afterward.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also pointed out that the commander should also be able to recycle weapons. Instead of left-clicking, he right-clicks to recycle (which also takes time).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any weapon that is produced appears on one of the four sides of the armory, and can be picked up my marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However there are more than 4 weapons (excluding knife): LMG, pistol, welder, shotgun, HMG, flamethrower, and GL. But your idea would work if the armory was class-specific. For ex, one side of the armory would give out HMGs to the long ranged class. The same side would give out GLs to the seige class. The trickiest part is displaying this information.
Another idea: Armory gives out basic weapons ONLY while Advanced Armory gives out advanced weapons ONLY. If this may make it inconvenient though because the armory must be upgraded. To counter this problem, maybe the advanced armory should just be a new placable structure.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In order to produce advanced weaponry, you would first have to have an armory. Then, you would have to build a separate, advanced armory. Once the advanced armory is up, you can choose to research 1 of the 3 weapons or produce if one if available. Just to make things not TOO slow, you can research and build at the same time (so if you have HMG, you can continue to produce as your research grenade launcher). Then you can produce those weapons at the advanced armory for a higher price (15, 18, 21, or something like that). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know there's a 1.1 tech tree somewhere here, but I'm too lazy to find it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Anyway, I think the arms lab is required to build the advanced armory. If this is so, the advanced weapon research stuff can be put on the arms lab. This would also create an interesting twist. Should I research weapon improvements or advanced weapons?
Maybe shotguns should be available either as an upgrade on the armory or available once an armory is built.
Flamethrowers are a tricky issue. They can't be too powerful or else they would have to higher tech, which would delay the seige class.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dropping weapons around the armory is still a viable option, as well. The former production option allows for weapons to be produced slowly and one after the other, but for a cheaper price. However, for around double the price (like 7 for the shotgun, for example) the commander can instantly drop a gun around the armory as he does now. This would be useful for getting guns out quickly for a rush, or for quickly dishing out heat if it's needed to guard against an unsuspected alien attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not so sure about this part. If the commander wants to do a rush, maybe he should place 2 armories down and mass produce shotguns.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The commander would be able to see what gun a person has next to their name in the TAB menu (like aliens can see player classes), so that he doesn't distribute too many of one type of gun out.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would be too hard to pack all that info there. An idea I had earlier was to copy the Warcraft/Starcraft unit selection system - where all those 12 unit icons are at the bottom of the GUI. More info can probably be packed there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Maybe there could be some sort of option which would allow the commander to restrict a person to a certain type of gun so that a bad player doesn't get his hands on a flamethrower, for example, but then again that would both be complex in practice and would impede on peoples' freedom of choice desire (which seems to be an issue with more people than I originally thought).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I find commander-based penalty systems problematic. A marine who is penalized by his commander would blame his commander. A marine penalized by the game mechanics can't blame anyone.
Some other stuff:
How about this: seige turrets can only be built by the seige class. That would make them more useful and less redundant.
Welders should be available to all classes. Versatility is still important.
In fact, versatility may be important enough that this class system be scrapped and the spawn system salvaged. Instead of choosing their class, marines choose which weapon/armor they wish to spawn with. More food for thought <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
With my newest post, I basically scrapped the whole player classes idea in favor of simplicity. Insetad of having the players belong to classes per se, the guns belong to classes. So all you have is guns, and prices for guns.
There's 4 basic guns - LMG, pistol, shotgun, flamethrower. The pistol is standard issue equipment, every person will have one, but it is available for purchase in the case that a player has been given a welder, and doesn't want it anymore. The LMG is also standard issue, and a nice middle-ground gun at that. The LMGer is pretty much good for everything, but excels at nothing. Once again, LMG's are available for purchase only in the case that a player has gotten another weapon (i.e. shotgun) and wants the LMG instead.
And I don't think you read my post well enough, as I made the advanced armory a completely separate buildable structure apart from the regular armory. Also, the advanced armory is where all the advanced guns are bought (HMG, flachette, grenade launcher) while the armory covers the basic guns. Just as you said <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As far as the flamthrower goes, I just want to make it clear that I intend for this weapon to be a POWERFUL anti-structure weapon. One person sustaining flames on a offensive chamber for around 3 seconds, for example, should be enough to demolish it (wheras it would take around 3 LMG'ers to destroy it in the same time). The problem is getting the flamethrower there. Then you get the grenade launcher, which sis like a nice upgrade to the flamethrower. With the grenade launcher, you can both lob the grenades aroudn corners and avoid comign in the chamber's line of fire, and attack multiple chambers at once with the large blast radius. So the siege class isn't exactly redundant, it just takes the most teamwork to be put to use. That said, making the siege class the only class to be able to build siege guns would be BAD. I don't like restricting building to any particular player.
As far as the TAB menu interface would go, it wouldn't be too hard to get that info in there. You know how you see GORG for gorges, or FADE for fade players? Well, you could see LMG for lmg-wielders, SHOT for shotguns, FLME for flamethrowers, HMG for HMG's, FLAK for flachette cannons, and GREN for grenade launchers. Simple enough.
Welders are WAY too powerful to be standard issue. There's a reason I specifically made them still "droppable"-only. They can weld structures, player armor (MAJOR benefit for HA), and open new paths. That's a lot of benefits for standard-issue equipment, or even cheaply buyable equipment. I want welders to remain somewhat limited in distribution, just as they are in 1.04 and 1.1.
-CD
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the flamthrower goes, I just want to make it clear that I intend for this weapon to be a POWERFUL anti-structure weapon. One person sustaining flames on a offensive chamber for around 3 seconds, for example, should be enough to demolish it (wheras it would take around 3 LMG'ers to destroy it in the same time). The problem is getting the flamethrower there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think 3 seconds is rather extreme. Flamethrowers would already have other uses: it would accomplish area denial even better than the GL and would be the "counter" to aliens using vents.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As far as the TAB menu interface would go, it wouldn't be too hard to get that info in there. You know how you see GORG for gorges, or FADE for fade players? Well, you could see LMG for lmg-wielders, SHOT for shotguns, FLME for flamethrowers, HMG for HMG's, FLAK for flachette cannons, and GREN for grenade launchers. Simple enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is: what about HA and JP information? That's just as important as the type of weapon they're using.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Welders are WAY too powerful to be standard issue. There's a reason I specifically made them still "droppable"-only. They can weld structures, player armor (MAJOR benefit for HA), and open new paths. That's a lot of benefits for standard-issue equipment, or even cheaply buyable equipment. I want welders to remain somewhat limited in distribution, just as they are in 1.04 and 1.1.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean that welders are free. I was thinking you were talking about the class system - welders should've been available to all classes (not class restricted).
What is the current issue? Marine responses to alien threats is for the most part static. The options are limited to what the commander has dropped for the marine to use, and most often is just vanilla LMG and a lot of damage upgrades. If you let the commander guide the path of specialization, and then let the grunts fill in their niche of expertice within what has been researched, then you have a bevy of flexability opened up to the marine team.
Also: you could allow a commander to "lock" weapons in an armoury for 30 seconds, that way the entire marine team dosent just grab whatever weapon they wish. Mines should cost 1 rp per mine, and have a limited stock (10 per armoury) that slowly regenerates.
Why does flexability matter? Because now you will have diversified marine groups. Dual-Pistols run ahead and cause major damage to surprised marines, LMG grunts follow closley, accompanied by shotgunners to provide CQB coverage. As the alien team aquires higher life forms, shotguns are dropped for lmg and eventually hmg. If the aliens preferr smaller life forms and more upgrades, swithc to flamethrower to flush out the cloaked/carapaced skulks. Use hand grenades in tandem with motion tracking to make quick advances in the eearly game. The options are more fluid when you give the grunt more control over his destiny.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Any weapon that is produced appears on one of the four sides of the armory, and can be picked up my marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines won't be too deadly when they spawn with this.
However, I wish there was a way for aliens to destroy weapons. If those weapons are laying beside the armory, a clever skulk should be able to go there and destroy some weapons. If a way to destroy weapons is implemented, the 1.04 30 second weapon disappear limit and the 1.1 death=no weapon dropped can be thrown out. What do you think?
I dont know if I can really go with the class idea. By getting a weapon, you become a class. You really dont need any sort of designation.
And the spawing with certain weapons sounds interesting.
I just love the current system a lot. Still, I wish there was a way to try this out and see what and how it plays. It could actually be more fun, but it could also change the game so much that the original idea was lost.
As far as Freemantle's ideas go, I'm still firm in my belief that the commander should be responsible for all res spending on the marine team. I really don't want to marines to be responsible for anything past choosing to pick up or to not pick up a weapon bought and dropped by the commander.
That would work <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Though I'd still like weapons to be destroyable objects.
I suggest you post a new "edition" of this thread with all the revised changes, because as evident in Ben128's post, people are getting confused.
Commander then researches advanced weapons (if he wants) from armory or arms lab. You only get advanced stuff (includes ha and jp) and welders and mines if commander drops them for you. He can also drop basic guns to quickly respond to changing situations.
This would be more or less EU-type lame compromise but wouldnt have so many problems. Only problem would be all players wanting for some reason to have same gun so marines would have to decide who takes what gun. That could be problem especially on public servers.
advanced weapons should also be more specialized so that basic guns would be needed to support them.
Its midnight here and Im damn tired. And because my English skills suck it takes eternity to type anything. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe I should just stay quiet <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
It is kind of like the research system in Science and Industry, but instead of voting on what research and picking up oodles of guns, the commander will reseach it and the marine will only be able to carry one loadout at a time.
Some of the items will have to be individualy authorized for purchase (Mines... Jetpack.... Heavy Armour). Higher flexability without sacrificing command strategy.
It also works in with your thought on armouries being "chomp worthy". Imagine what would happen if a terrorist blew up your buy menu in counterstrike. It will cause a major stall in marine advancement (but obviously less so than chomping and infntry portal).
Some sort of distinction is nessisary, that way the marine team knoews what they are carrying, and so the commander can lean his team's tendancies and put the right people in the right places.
How about having the commander specify how many of each type there will be beforehand? He then can change the balance dynamically for whatever game situation he faces. The marines could then have a hotkey menu screen (similar to cs radio commands) that says "Spawn as this class", as long as there is space within that class, the marine is allowed to.
For example, if the commander says, I want 4 long range, 3 short range and 1 siege out of a team of eight and NSPlayer wants to be a short range and chooses short range from his menu, the game checks, realizes there is only 2 currently and he is then allowed to take the class.
This would be similar to capping snipers, or engies in TFC. No one stopped playing that just because there were already too many engineers, they just took a different class.
I think this would keep the marines happy, because they would have some control over what class they played within the commanders overall strategy. This way, the players could work out what they wanted to take. If someone had a reputation of being very talented with seige weaponry, then the players would like be friendly to him using it, etc.
It is kind of like the research system in Science and Industry, but instead of voting on what research and picking up oodles of guns, the commander will reseach it and the marine will only be able to carry one loadout at a time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Making weapons free once researched (even if it takes lots of time and res) will open a whole can of worms. If the marines hold off aliens off long enough, they would have the upper advantage in the late game because they will have so much res. This isn't a pure research game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about having the commander specify how many of each type there will be beforehand? He then can change the balance dynamically for whatever game situation he faces. The marines could then have a hotkey menu screen (similar to cs radio commands) that says "Spawn as this class", as long as there is space within that class, the marine is allowed to.
For example, if the commander says, I want 4 long range, 3 short range and 1 siege out of a team of eight and NSPlayer wants to be a short range and chooses short range from his menu, the game checks, realizes there is only 2 currently and he is then allowed to take the class.
This would be similar to capping snipers, or engies in TFC. No one stopped playing that just because there were already too many engineers, they just took a different class.
I think this would keep the marines happy, because they would have some control over what class they played within the commanders overall strategy. This way, the players could work out what they wanted to take. If someone had a reputation of being very talented with seige weaponry, then the players would like be friendly to him using it, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was my first idea after reading this thread, but I scrapped it because it would difficult to display. Cluttered interfaces = bad interface. If you suggest a good way of displaying this info and an easy and intuitive way for the commander to adjust, I'll change my mind <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Lately you see jp/hmg rushes on the hives, as this seems to be the hardest to counter as the aliens. Add to this weapon upgrades and a hive falls quite quickly.
But not only do you have jetpacks, but heavy armor. Properly used in a team, HA makes a group of marines practically immortal. (Welding/occasional meds from comm). Armed with a GL, perhaps a couple HMGs, that's a dangerous lot. However, that doens't leave as much res for upgrades.
Or, the marines could go siege. Setup shop outside the hive room, get some phasegates going, level 1 weapons/armor, get some sentry turrets up to support the troops and even maybe a few mines. Boom boom, the hive goes splat.
Not to mention rush tactics- shottie rushes or go strait for HMG's and a couple weapon upgrades and just run in shooting. Rambo like and risky, but it's all about the fun.
As of 1.04, it's pretty much set for aliens to have Defense chambers at first hive, movement second, etc. An easy counter to carapace is weapon upgrades- which I see marines shoot straight for level 2 weapons before armor or MT or anything else. If aliens would be brave enough to try sensory first (and darnit, I'm with Flayra on this) weapon upgrades wouldn't be as useful. If you don't see your attacker, how can you shoot it? Motion tracking and armor is your best bet here.
What about movement? A speedy skulk is hard to hit. And a quiet stalker to scare the crap out of you can be as bad as an invisible one. But all I see are gun-ho aliens wanting to rush in chomping away. Not very tactical if you ask me.
While the idea of classes sounds fun, I personally don't believe it has a place in NS. If the alien players would be open to explore their strategies- I think you'd begin to see the marine counters. They DO have a lot of options, if you just look.
I am all for a change in the heirarchy of how the Marines function. Let us explode into a new patch, full of wonder and excitement.
LM
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As I stated in the original post, for this to work the HMG would have to be trimmed slightly. We already see points in games of 1.04 where no marine leaves the base without an HMG. Aliens still win against that showing of firepower with cunning and teamwork.
A much better sense of balance could be achieved if the aliens advance quickly as individuals, and the marines advance more slowly as a team. There really isn't much resource loss, considering that the alien team honsestly uses very little resources (exempting the gorge), and gets resources for each marine kill.
This should also speed up the metagame considerably, as each new research item noticably raises marine tech up a tier. Many more tactics should become viable, and personal responsability will begin to fall on the marines. Commandes will no longer feel like they wasted 18 res when the man they just gave a shotgun to walked out the door and got jumped.
Aliens will be forced to vary their attacks more and use stealth over upgrade speed when the middle and late game approaches (unless they ahve been good little kharra and cut the TSA off from resources).
You see, the problem isn't that the marine's options aren't there. It's just that those options are slow, hard to pull off effectively, and generally ineffective.
Let's stick with your example of carapace and upgraded weapons, for example. Say the aliens lay down three defense towers, which doesn't really take much longer than 30 seconds usually, and 42 resources in 1.4 (I think it's 60 in 1.1?). In order to compensate for carapace, marines need to develop around level 2 weapons. First that means getting an IP and an armory if they havent already, which is around 47 resources. Then they need to get an arms lab, 45 resources. Then they need to get level 1 weapons, 20 resources, around a minute of dev time. Then level 2, 40 resources, around 3 (I don't know actual time). That's around 150 resources and 5 minutes of gametime to effectively counter what the aliens have put up in 30 seconds, with 42/60 resources. Oh yeah, in that five minutes the marines spent trying to level the playing field, the aliens have already gotten well on their way to hive #2 and some nicer evolutions to boot. And because all those res were spent on upgrades, theres no HMG, HA, or JP in sight.
Continuing onward, let's say the reverse occurs. Marines spend every last resource they can to jumpstart their weapons to level 2, and during this entire 5-7 minute period, aliens do nothing to counter it. What are the poor aliens to do? Oh, well, they could spend 42/60 resources and drop 3 defense towers, all in the time of about 30 seconds, and BAM - those level 2 weapons are meaningless, and the aliens have just brought things back to where they were basically in the beginning of the game.
What I'm getting at is that anythign the marines research can be countered by the aliens in about 30 seconds, with minimal resource expenditure. Marines can counter somethign the aliens research in around 5 minutes, with a ton of resource expenditure. Not exactly fair, if you think about it. Marines are losing 99% of the 1.1 games, as I hear (though I haven't heard anything from the tests of newer versions).
And now with 1.1, such alien counters even extend to the holy grails of marine tech - the HA and the jetpack. Marines rush the HA? By the time a HA+HMG team is assembled, aliens have enough Onos to bring the entire team to its knees. Jetpacks rushed, and an entire team outfitted? Then the entire alien team evolves to the lerk - it's only 17-something res, and it's now easier to shoot down marines with spikes then EVER before!
Not to say that a HA team can decimate any alien team, hands down. It's just the time it takes to get to that point, and the amount of prediction and luck it takes on the commander's part, that's the problem.
What I am asking for is for the marines to have a decent way to counter alien developments, just as easily as the aliens counter marine developments. Are the aliens whoring carapace? Then distribute shotguns. And no, you can't do that in the current versions - seriously, how often is the 15-res shotgun EVER bought instead of upgrades? Seeing too many onos on the field? Then get those flachette cannons out there to deal with them. Fades rocketing everything from a distance? Get some HMG's (with their new and improved smaller firing cone) out there to counter it. The game would just become more RTS like, with the team who is best at attacking and countering enemy attacks winning.
So thus we can conclude that Marines = American Army floundering around in Iraq thinking that Technology will save them and the Kharran Guerrilla Front = The Iraqi "Terrorists" who are actually using simple Guerrilla tactics against a foe that would level them in conventional combat.
Or put more simply, Marines are stupid, Aliens will continue to rock.
LM
So thus we can conclude that Marines = American Army floundering around in Iraq thinking that Technology will save them and the Kharran Guerrilla Front = The Iraqi "Terrorists" who are actually using simple Guerrilla tactics against a foe that would level them in conventional combat.
Or put more simply, Marines are stupid, Aliens will continue to rock.
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I said cunning and teamwork, not blind fanatacisim and demoralized troops.
That being said, it IS the aliens who should have the counter abilities. Because marines have first chance to pick what route they are going to take. After all, the marines are coming in and attacking the aliens, and they are responding to the threat. That's the way the story goes, as well as play mode. Yes it takes a while for the marines to research their counter abilities- but if it was immediate the aliens would stand little chance early game. The marines are ranged fighters, and if they were always capable of having the perfect alien strategy counter available to them in "30 seconds"- I don't think I'd enjoy that game as an alien.
My main beef with the class system in NS, is that it makes the Marines and Aliens feel too similar. The marines were never meant to have quick adaptation to the aliens, so I don't see the need for classes. An interesting idea, but one I don't see falling into NS. But, who knows eh?
As an alien, as soon as you die, you can counter. If you got killed by an HMG because you chose carapace and got slowed down too much, then you can choose celerity this time instead. Bam, you've countered the marines. Giving marines a similar system, where they can counter something an alien does "in 30 seconds," wouldn't be THAT devastating for the alien team, because the commander still has to do everything. The aliens still can coutner stuff on an individual basis, with the benefit of hivesight, and thsus will alwasy react much more quickly. If the commander can spot a weakness and distribute a counter THAT fast, then the marines really should have a significant advantage.
My suggestion makes it easier to "spam" weapons as described before (the commander just needs to queue up a bunch of weapons icon and instead of click and drop repeatedly) and introduces build times. The build times is an added "cost" of making the weapon, so the weapon res costs should be decreased. This in turn makes it easier to queue up multiple weapons. In addition, this introduces a new tactic of building multiple armories to build weapons faster. The marines still rely on the commander, aren't overpowered when they spawn (as they were with the original idea), and can get weapons more easily without bugging the commander. The commander in turn can focus on more important issues.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A much better sense of balance could be achieved if the aliens advance quickly as individuals, and the marines advance more slowly as a team. There really isn't much resource loss, considering that the alien team honsestly uses very little resources (exempting the gorge), and gets resources for each marine kill.
This should also speed up the metagame considerably, as each new research item noticably raises marine tech up a tier. Many more tactics should become viable, and personal responsability will begin to fall on the marines. Commandes will no longer feel like they wasted 18 res when the man they just gave a shotgun to walked out the door and got jumped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that at late game, aliens will be losing resources while marines aren't. Then the marines can simply use their massive supply of res to build turret farms and seige outposts like crazy - all the while the marines are touting high end weapons for free. Early game would also favor aliens because they are much more versatile (in 1.1) then. Although your idea gets rid of begging marines, I don't think it's worth it.
Really makes counters avaliable in NS.
Heck, I'll even take the idea of different classes for the marines if none of the revised ideas happen to work out. I mean, sometimes I dO feel that I'd like this game to be more like warcraft3 than a fps. I'm still missing a lot of the RTS portion right now.
I like it, too.
And heres an additional idea:
If a rine has gotten ashottie, wich he doesn´t want (can´t think, why, but h*** there might be some people who do) or a Flamethrower, wich is a better point, he can go to the armory and get his free LMG, as said before, but his current weapons isn´t lost, but stored in the armory. The next Guy who wants a FT can get it from there.
This would also make a twisting strategy without loosing too much res viable, since everything you bought before is stored and may be used again, if necessary.
The same goes for JP and HA, they are stored in the Protolab, so if one is base defending with HA, but the Frontline needs another soldier, he gets out of his HA, puts it in the Proto, gets gimself a shottie and a JP and there he goes!
All weapons dropped in the placement area of the Armory, should disappear and be stored within!
This is already possible with PGs (wich store medpacs and ammokits , in a mod), why shouldn´t it be possible with weapons and an armory.
Again, two thumbs up!
This is already possible with PGs (wich store medpacs and ammokits , in a mod), why shouldn´t it be possible with weapons and an armory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this idea. It also has an odd side effect if marines drop weapons upon death (currently they don't in 1.1 beta). Whenever the weapons drop, even on death, they would be sent to the nearest armory. Now this might mean that marines will be able to hold out indefinitely against aliens, but recall that destroying the armory destroys all weapons. It might balance out - and makes the armory a more viable option to siege (more choices = winnar! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->)