Strategy In Ns And Why Hive Restriction Must Stay
VulgR
Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17436Members
Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17436Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The point...</div> Hi after reading this forums for more than one and a half year i finnaly decide to post something because i feel it is the root of Ns and it is somewhat getting overlooked (sry for bad english, im french Canandian). When I first started NS (oct 31) I enjoyed the Fade and the Onos because they were fun to play and I could feel very powerfull and invincible against light marines. Im still playing NS 1.04 and I still enjoy it from both side even if theres a hive lockdown and were getting destroyed why? Because I'm a fighter and I never give up. I'm a pub player and ill always remember the first time, while i was a gorge, I proposed to my team to build Fusion Reactor hive even if they had a turret farm inside. So with the help of my voicecom (wich i think is a crucial element to NS) I managed to get my team arround both entries and then I got inside and built the Hive, the marines weren't expecting that and we managed to destroy the turret farm AND get the 2nd hive up. Eventually we made a comeback and destroyed the HA marines but b4 we got the 3rd hive thanks to Acid Rocket. (THIS is why F4 is bad for the game and shouldnt even be there anyway u cant switch team so why is it there?). Now im going back to topic...
The Hive Restriction is crucial to NS because its the main strategic element of the aliens. Heres why: Without hive restriction the aliens just have to sit there and wait to get Oni and then destroy the light marines that try to run away without a hope for survival.
Especially in pubs: if u think that ppl will start doing teamwork when they can just hide in a corner or camp marines spawn to get the res they need then I think u live in a fluffly world where nobody's selfish. Hive restrictions also promotes the Fade as an usefull unit that can do great support.
That said here's hive restriction main problem: Hive Lockdown.
Hive Lockdown requires first skills then resources. In 1.1 its even easier with the Electrified TF/Node. Like a Vets proposed the TF/Node damage should be slightly beefed up but should divide when theres more than 1 alien. That way it remains usefull while not invincible. I also think theres should be an upgrade at the arms lab to boost electricity damage so a bunch of Onos could still be countered. Electric TF/Node shouldn't shoot structures and aliens trough geo. Now your gonna say that im crazy but I haven't finished with the Hive Restriction.
Theres still HA and JP that cant be countered if aliens goes down to 1 hive from 2 or 3 and heres my solution to that problem. It was already proposed but it got lost in the forum. When the aliens build a 2nd or 3rd hive they keep the ability to morph to superior creature even if they loose hive. THAT way aliens that can now rush 2nd hive fast will have at least fade to counter or get 3rd hive. So if they lose 2nd or 3rd hive they can still morph into Fade or Onos at 1 hive and THAT would make epic battle for the Last Hive/Marine Base.
Imagine an Alien strat could be to rush the 3 hives then put all the chambers in their main hive then protect one hive or 2 and rush marines. Or if marines lockdown 2 hive b4 they can put one up then use <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> to destroy their dfense and take the hive to get fades. If marines lockdown 1 hive and are destroying the 2nd you wont worry u cant evolve to fade and take that hive back. This idea would certainly make longer game but would be the best solution to have Epic battle and let the marines have a chance to Tech. However res became a problem i heard that aliens res tower are now weak and can be easily destroyed so like a Vet sugested a LVL1 spore cloud that doesnt stack would be great when the res is under attack so the marines would have to shoot it and it would make them nervous the not empty their clip just in case a skulk is coming. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well thats all i had to say for aliens now its marines turn... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing that marines lack is more organisation. Now you say : they have the commander but he cant always be there for you when you need it.
So what i suggest is a class based system for marines that is based on Xp that they earn for kills/build structures/weld entry point/follow comms waypoint/destroy structures/destroy hive/play with his team...
The marine would have an xp bar on their hud that would raise the more they do teamwork to help the team. But first they should pick a class like Engy,Medic and Soldier. The more they gain XP the more they have goodies avalaible. Ex: An engy that built alot of structure could spawn with a welder when he reach 120 (fictional) xp. A med would gain the hability to Heal teamates with a -limited- number of med packs and he would gain more and more the higher is Xp goes. The soldier would get an HA(fictional) when he spawns when he reaches a high lvl of XP. THAT would encourage teamplay while giving personal reward for "skilled" players. Also the Commander can designate a "Lieutenant" that would have a special icon above his head to signal newbies to follow him and to encourage teamplay and squad play.
All theses ideas are just suggestion i made to help NS become a strategy game while requiring skill and encouraging teamwork and still be accessible to pub server wich is negleted in the current PT (no offense there but how do you think u can PT a pub game with Vets and PTs)
Well thats my 1 year observation of NS and even if its long with lots of typo errors and grammatical ones I guess it reflects something tought and not just thrown there. I know im not a PT but from what i read on the Beta forums (change log, impressions) I still beleive my ideas make sense in some way. Maybe they need tweaking. Thx for reading...
-VulgR <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Hive Restriction is crucial to NS because its the main strategic element of the aliens. Heres why: Without hive restriction the aliens just have to sit there and wait to get Oni and then destroy the light marines that try to run away without a hope for survival.
Especially in pubs: if u think that ppl will start doing teamwork when they can just hide in a corner or camp marines spawn to get the res they need then I think u live in a fluffly world where nobody's selfish. Hive restrictions also promotes the Fade as an usefull unit that can do great support.
That said here's hive restriction main problem: Hive Lockdown.
Hive Lockdown requires first skills then resources. In 1.1 its even easier with the Electrified TF/Node. Like a Vets proposed the TF/Node damage should be slightly beefed up but should divide when theres more than 1 alien. That way it remains usefull while not invincible. I also think theres should be an upgrade at the arms lab to boost electricity damage so a bunch of Onos could still be countered. Electric TF/Node shouldn't shoot structures and aliens trough geo. Now your gonna say that im crazy but I haven't finished with the Hive Restriction.
Theres still HA and JP that cant be countered if aliens goes down to 1 hive from 2 or 3 and heres my solution to that problem. It was already proposed but it got lost in the forum. When the aliens build a 2nd or 3rd hive they keep the ability to morph to superior creature even if they loose hive. THAT way aliens that can now rush 2nd hive fast will have at least fade to counter or get 3rd hive. So if they lose 2nd or 3rd hive they can still morph into Fade or Onos at 1 hive and THAT would make epic battle for the Last Hive/Marine Base.
Imagine an Alien strat could be to rush the 3 hives then put all the chambers in their main hive then protect one hive or 2 and rush marines. Or if marines lockdown 2 hive b4 they can put one up then use <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> and <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> to destroy their dfense and take the hive to get fades. If marines lockdown 1 hive and are destroying the 2nd you wont worry u cant evolve to fade and take that hive back. This idea would certainly make longer game but would be the best solution to have Epic battle and let the marines have a chance to Tech. However res became a problem i heard that aliens res tower are now weak and can be easily destroyed so like a Vet sugested a LVL1 spore cloud that doesnt stack would be great when the res is under attack so the marines would have to shoot it and it would make them nervous the not empty their clip just in case a skulk is coming. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well thats all i had to say for aliens now its marines turn... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing that marines lack is more organisation. Now you say : they have the commander but he cant always be there for you when you need it.
So what i suggest is a class based system for marines that is based on Xp that they earn for kills/build structures/weld entry point/follow comms waypoint/destroy structures/destroy hive/play with his team...
The marine would have an xp bar on their hud that would raise the more they do teamwork to help the team. But first they should pick a class like Engy,Medic and Soldier. The more they gain XP the more they have goodies avalaible. Ex: An engy that built alot of structure could spawn with a welder when he reach 120 (fictional) xp. A med would gain the hability to Heal teamates with a -limited- number of med packs and he would gain more and more the higher is Xp goes. The soldier would get an HA(fictional) when he spawns when he reaches a high lvl of XP. THAT would encourage teamplay while giving personal reward for "skilled" players. Also the Commander can designate a "Lieutenant" that would have a special icon above his head to signal newbies to follow him and to encourage teamplay and squad play.
All theses ideas are just suggestion i made to help NS become a strategy game while requiring skill and encouraging teamwork and still be accessible to pub server wich is negleted in the current PT (no offense there but how do you think u can PT a pub game with Vets and PTs)
Well thats my 1 year observation of NS and even if its long with lots of typo errors and grammatical ones I guess it reflects something tought and not just thrown there. I know im not a PT but from what i read on the Beta forums (change log, impressions) I still beleive my ideas make sense in some way. Maybe they need tweaking. Thx for reading...
-VulgR <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
sry if its against rules but i feel its crucial (my 1st post in 1 year reading)
With fades costing 75 res, and onos costing 100 res, you're NOT going to see fades and onos going against light marines... Unless the alien team is very good and has kept the marines from expanding or doing much building, or the marine team is very bad and has not done anything.
First fade cost was reduced and thus making it usefull. Read changelogs
Also I dont know where you play but on PUBS if you can get Onos at 1 hive lots of player will wait to get it and Onos rapes everything xcept an 8 player team with HA HMG or JP HMG.
Most players on pub are selfish if u dont yell at them to cooperate nor theres an admin to kick them....
Thats the sad reality...
Read the beta forum you will se that Onos at hive one is the thing that decide the games ends and the ONLY sadly...
For the most part I agree - I'm a big supporter of the hive system for many reasons which you touched on - It just "feels" right, and it does alot to centralize the battles. It forces the aliens to accomplish something before they can get higher lifeforms, and it forces the marines to pay attention to more than just nodes. There's nothing better then getting together as an alien team and breaking that marine hold on a hive and going on to win - you all know the feeling - its my favorite part of NS pubbing, and I'll be sad to see it go. The sad thing is, with all the major changes, its even easier to stop right now, but for whatever reason noone "gets" it, so it's probably gonna have to go =[
You kinda lost me at the marines part - not bad ideas, just not something that is really gonna happen and not very relevant to the discussion at hand. Other then that though, good job, I agree for the most part.
If pub players sit around the whole game waiting for 75 res, well, then, they're not contributing to their team, and giving the marines an advantage, and making it EASIER for the marines to win, not the other way around.
1.1 has not yet been balanced. Once it's balanced, onos will no longer be the game-ender they are now. In fact, look back into the earliest builds of 1.1 and you'll see that Onos were completely invincible due to the way regen worked with them. Things are getting closer and closer to perfect.
The thing is they shouldn't be. Tier 3 teched marines should be countered by Tier 3 aliens.
This is the current problem with evolutions based on hives. The aliens cannot get Tier 2/3 units to counter tier 2/3 marine tech :/
If you have a hive one evolution that can counter tier 2/3 marines, just imagine what it would do to tier 1 marines!
Yes and no. More hives=more abilities and more chambers. Adrenaline+Onos+charge=ownage for example.
While hives become less important for aliens in some ways, it depends on how their abilities are balanced.
And having all 3 chambers viable is much better for strategy than just one useful chamber. I'm not at all sure what you mean by that.
The thing is they shouldn't be. Tier 3 teched marines should be countered by Tier 3 aliens.
This is the current problem with evolutions based on hives. The aliens cannot get Tier 2/3 units to counter tier 2/3 marine tech :/
If you have a hive one evolution that can counter tier 2/3 marines, just imagine what it would do to tier 1 marines! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then the solution is not to add something that could slow down marines tech??
Any toughts?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yes and no. More hives=more abilities and more chambers. Adrenaline+Onos+charge=ownage for example.
While hives become less important for aliens in some ways, it depends on how their abilities are balanced.
And having all 3 chambers viable is much better for strategy than just one useful chamber. I'm not at all sure what you mean by that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I meant that on PUBS ""elite"" players will only want to get Onos and when you will ask them to get a hand they will say that they will "PWN" thier **** out once they get the 40 res they need to get Onos. For all they care is that one chamber is down and at lvl3 so they can choose an ability to fit the monsters and adrenaline is quite suited for that in fact (More bash more damage). He doesnt need to use sensory nor dc cuz Onos has high HP and can take alot of bullet unlike other aliens xcept maybe fade that should get a slight boost for my idea to work thanks for noticing...
sorta a mix between the new hive system and the old, sound good...
(i havnt read all the replies so i might be repeating summin)
FeedBack always welcome... Because it could be done pretty easily while helping the game for balance
Need more feedback to help clarify my idea and maybe Devs could response.... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I do, however, like your alien/hive suggestion... That once a hive-based evolution(fade, onos) is unlocked, that it doesn't re-lock when the hive is destroyed. It sounds like a simple, yet elegant solution to the problems we were having, while still maintaining the "tech tree" goals for alien expansion. This will definitely keep the focus of the game on capturing and maintaining hive-sites, and solves the end-game stagnation that accompanies the situation where aliens had 3-hives reduced to 1, and have a butt-load of resources. It also keeps the marines focused on killing hives in order to limit the types of attacks that aliens have at their disposal... An Onos with just gore is a lot less nasty than an Onos with gore, stomp, devour and charge.
Two thumbs up for this idea.
I do, however, like your alien/hive suggestion... That once a hive-based evolution(fade, onos) is unlocked, that it doesn't re-lock when the hive is destroyed. It sounds like a simple, yet elegant solution to the problems we were having, while still maintaining the "tech tree" goals for alien expansion. This will definitely keep the focus of the game on capturing and maintaining hive-sites, and solves the end-game stagnation that accompanies the situation where aliens had 3-hives reduced to 1, and have a butt-load of resources. It also keeps the marines focused on killing hives in order to limit the types of attacks that aliens have at their disposal... An Onos with just gore is a lot less nasty than an Onos with gore, stomp, devour and charge.
Two thumbs up for this idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well yes my marines ideas are mainly for the Skills/Strats portion that the marines seems to lack from PTs point of view meh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
So if it has nothing to do with balance, then why? The problem is that the Onos, and to a lesser extent the Fade, are what I refer to as "cosmetic evolutions". Sure, they look pretty, but because of slippery slope by the time you see either, the game is already decided. Relegating the Onos to a 3rd hive position removes the alien entirely from the strategic tree, and thus makes it pointless. Why even bother evolving to Onos in 1.04, besides a brief adrenaline rush? You might as well have a button that says "Aliens Win" when you have 3 hives and enough res for Onos in the current incarnation. This occurs with Fades as well, though to a lesser degree. Unless the marines have some really great players, then the introduction of Fades in a 1.04 pub server spells a nearly certain win, excepting the JP/HMG rush. And so to a degree, the current incarnation of the Fade is also a pointless evolution.
Under the 3 hive linked evolution system, the game is decided in the first 5-10 minutes, and then slowly draws out while the marines get their act together. Pulling a 2 hive lock right now is not that hard, unless your entire team belongs on teh short bus as marines. And digging entrenched marines out of a hive is not as easy as some make it sound. But, maybe 2 hive locks will be harder in 1.1, and maybe digging out entrenched marines will be easier in 1.1, but that doesn't solve the core problem. That the Onos is a completely non-strategic evolution. As long as the linked 3 hive system remains, we will never see epic battles of max tech aliens and marines. Instead, the game will forever revolve around the course being decided in the first 5-10 minutes, and the rest of the game revolving around "clean up".
I don't want to play clean up crew, I don't want slippery slope. I want more strategies to be viable, and I want epic battles between HA/HMG and RAWRRRing Oni. Even if that means weakening Oni.
- They are boring and they suck the fun out of Natural-Selection.
Why are aliens getting all evolutions (at a weaker state and a higher cost, of course) at one hive? Marines dragging out the game to tech up, and aliens getting loads of res and not being able to do anything but delay the inevitable.
Currently as a marine you can lock-down every hive but the alien's hive. at that point you tech up and defend the two hives you have. once you have either JP or HA you send your peoples in and crush them. this takes 10-25 minutes. those 10-25 minutes could be spent more constructivly and in a better manner than just "rushing with skulks to attempt to take a hive back, and get fades, but always getting defeated"
Since aliens get fade and onos at higher costs and in a possibly weaker state, it allows them to use their resources on those evolutions and possibly take back a hive; ending the pain and suffering of a borring late game where the aliens try to rush and fail repeatedly, and marines just tech up until they can deal with them quickly.
Why is it so hard to see that all evolutions at hive 1 at a weaker state and higher cost is a <i>good</i> thing?! <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> It ends the borring late game. It allows aliens to come-back into the game. It hussels the marines to hurry the F-UP!