Hives Linked To Lifeforms: Discuss!

Chopper_Dave1Chopper_Dave1 Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Based on the poll</div> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=35508' target='_blank'>Here's the poll</a>, If you haven't gone already.

I myself voted for the 1.1 version, at it leaves much more room for the Kharaa to strategize. In 1.04, it's way too easy for the marines to lock down in two games, then sit on their hands for the next hour and leave the much more offensive alien team in agony. At the same time, marines have an option for tech rushing (rush HMG, distribute, rush hive) while the aliens don't really have the same ability. Both are fixed in 1.1.

However, the 1.1 system leaves something to be desired, as the aliens are apparently winning a ton, and it takes nothing short of a miracle for the marines to win. I really don't think the problem lies with the aliens on this one, but instead with the marines. Give the marines more tech to counter the aliens. If you want to have the Onos make a regular in-game appearance, maybe now's the time to also implement an "Onos-buster" piece of equipment for the marines to give them a chance. If the aliens have the ability to dynamically react to what the marines are doing (e.g. getting celerity rather than adrenaline because marines are spamming grenades, Onos rushing because marines are sitting on 2 hives but not getting any resources), give the marines an option to dynamically react to what the aliens are doing. Cause right now, all they can do to "counter" is fire up a research cycle which will end 5 minutes later, usually too late to mean anything.

I mean, if an Onos charges into my base, and the "official" counter is a jetpack, what am I suppsoed to do? Research jetpacks? Oh yeah, like that'll help now. Maybe my strategy involved using Heavy Armor, and researching jetpacks would have been too much of a resource drain. Now as a Onos tears up my forces, I can do nothing except watch a little bar fill up, then stop as the Prototype Lab gets mauled. Guess my lack of foresight made me lose...but where's the fun in that? Aliens don't need to predict what marines do in 1.1, and neither should marines. It needs to be about what team does the best job of reacting to each other, and uses strategies to outwit and outdo each other - in other words, like a real RTS. In 1.04, it's rock-paper-scissors for both sides invovled, which is bad. In 1.1, it's not rock-paper-scissors for the aliens, which is better, but it is still rock-paper-scissors for the marines, which is still bad. I'm not asking for "hard" counters, I'm asking for proper "soft" counters. Expansion > tech, tech > middle road, middle road > expansion - that's all 1.04, Flay. This basic system of counters doesn't apply to the aliens anymore, because you've given them better options for teching. It's time to give the marines the same option and make the game better, or we might as well go back to the 1.04 hive-dependent system.

I'm too tired to type any more, if you want me to hear me continue rambling on about this, feel free to give <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=34850' target='_blank'>this</a> a nice reread.

Comments

  • ApeApe Join Date: 2003-06-17 Member: 17448Members, Constellation
    edited June 2003
    I agree with the general point you're trying to make (I voted for the 1.1 version too), however I don't think that marines should receive an 'instant' counter, such as an anti-onos weapon. At this stage 1.1 sounds close to being complete now that hive-locked evolutions have been tested one last time, and subsequently removed (1.1r). I believe that in your example, effective scouting using either marines or scanner may have prevented the onos rocking up to your base unnoticed in the first place. If you can determine that you have incoming onos a minute or so before it hits base, that may be just enough time to prepare a JP counter for it (if indeed that is truly an effective counter). I honestly don't know what the new research/build times are so I could well be wrong, you may need 5 minutes or so to prepare for such an attack. If so, ignore me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    I think that 1.1 sounds like it's so close to being what we hoped it would be (a complete revamp of NS and how it's played) that introducing a new weapon at this stage would prove counter-productive, as it would need to be balanced/modelled etc from scratch and may well turn out to be more trouble than it's worth.

    Perhaps make the onos more susceptible to a certain exisiting weapons class, eg maybe a quick ammo upgrade for the shotty which is very effective against onos, but not as effective against the lesser evolutions.

    Apart from that, good point.

    PS. I read that other post a day or so ago, I still don't think my eyes have fully recovered - talk about long (makes for a good read though).
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    Are mines still stackable and more or less impossible to trigger from a distance? If so, I'm guessing a ten-stack of mines is the answer to an onos.
  • UnderDOGUnderDOG Join Date: 2003-04-05 Member: 15221Members
    i would want to see fade and 1 hive and onos at 2, 3rd for spawn and upgrades
  • nojmasternojmaster Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17027Members
    As gameplay stands in 1.04, i'd like to see the one change of the evolultions unlinked to hives. Marines now are getting the level three weaponry and HMG's while aliens are just barely getting thier hive 2 stuff. But, with all the other changes in 1.1, i don't know what to think. Still, i prefer the idea of the freedom of being able to evolve whenever into whatever, instead of the classic limiting system. Go unlinked evolutions! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • mahnjoocemahnjooce Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10717Members
    The marines already have a nice advantage against an Onos. You can't miss the thing, and once para is gone they'll have no long range attacks. Jetpacks should already be good enough. Marines also already have damage modifying tech trees, so I don't think a shotgun shell specifically designed for an Onos would make too much sense.

    I like it the way it is. Dying as an onos would cause you to lose 80 res. Dying as a marine with an HMG would only cause you to lose some res if someone can't get to the HMG that was dropped.

    If an Onos rips through your base because you didn't have jetpacks. (Which is a pretty weak excuse--if your plan was to hand out HA, most likely the people with HA would have GL's and HMGS already)
    Then it's the comms fault.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Quoted from the 1.1r changelog thread:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->O Removed hive restrictions again because of stalemates. I'm glad we tried it this way one last time, and I'm finally convinced that this new approach can work.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The discussion comes a little too late, no? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Marine0IMarine0I Join Date: 2002-11-14 Member: 8639Members, Constellation
    Oh Thank GOD! Lord thank you thank you thank you. I feel like a man who has been told in a prank radio phonecall that his wife has been killed - and in the middle of his life falling around him, through his tears, sees his wife open the front door.

    NS has been brought back from the brink of the abyss that was hive lockdowns. My faith in Flayra has been restored.

    Ohhh thank you,.

    My gratefullnes can never be fully expressed through this keyboard
  • lolfighterlolfighter Snark, Dire Join Date: 2003-04-20 Member: 15693Members
    edited June 2003
    The new, no-hive-limitations structure is winning, just as I expected. It has my vote too. I think it is only fair: Marines have electrified RTs, and need only res to tech up. Aliens have defenseless RCs, and need hives too in order to compete? Unfair. And I also dislike the idea of essentially having to win the game as a skulk, then being able to access the higher lifeforms when the game has almost been decided anyway (or is at least leaning heavily towards my side). If nothing else, I really like to get in a little more time with my friends Onos and Fade. And if this unbalances the game towards the aliens: Hell, about time! Now it's payback for all the humiliating jp/hmg defeats! Eat my tusks! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
    And to satisfy those in the beta reading this: Yes, I acknowledge that I haven't tried the game, don't know jack about it and shouldn't even open my mouth. But I decide to blab anyway.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like it the way it is. Dying as an onos would cause you to lose 80 res. Dying as a marine with an HMG would only cause you to lose some res if someone can't get to the HMG that was dropped.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Iirc, an Onos now costs 100 res, and dead marines no longer drop their weapons.
  • MastodonMastodon Old Fogie Join Date: 2003-01-09 Member: 12052Members, Constellation
    I'd still like to see some sort of power-relation between aliens and hives. Meaning that their attacks get stronger per hive or their armor/health goes up per hive (and carapace is just an added bonus). If the onos thing is such an issue, I think this would help...that or implement the ol' elephant gun. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • stick100stick100 Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9050Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Chopper Dave+Jun 18 2003, 12:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Chopper Dave @ Jun 18 2003, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I mean, if an Onos charges into my base, and the "official" counter is a jetpack, what am I suppsoed to do? Research jetpacks? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Simple solution.

    When someone starts evolving the first Onos, the Egg gives out an Onos scream that everyone can hear.

    This way the marines have time to react before the onos comes to roll over them.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Even easier solutions: Three decent shotgunners and a little basedefense can down a hive one Onos.
  • FrikkFrikk Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3164Members, Constellation
    One hive onos' are not too hard to kill. A good bit of concentrated fire will take it down, and it won't have a good chance to run away because of it's speed. I still wouldn't like to meet one in a dark alley mind you, but they aren't game enders.
  • KingKupoKingKupo Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9785Members
    it's quite frustrating if marines have all their high-level stuff while all you got are a few lerks and skulks with alot of res. i voted on the 1.1 way because it would be a nice change and raise the unpredictabilty rating of NS.

    now you are suggesting all kind of counters to onos(a weapon specific for onos would be near useless actually). why don't you just wait how it turns out in 1.1?
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    I voted option 3, not because I don't feel strongly, but because I don't have first hand knowledge, thus, I believe it will be best for those that do to make the best decision. Right now, from what I hear, it has turned into a whoever can save up for onos game... That, I don't want, but ugh, I dunno.
  • FlayraFlayra Game Director, Unknown Worlds Entertainment San Francisco Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 3Super Administrators, NS2 Developer, Subnautica Developer
    Hey guys,

    Thanks for your input. The poll tipped me over the edge and forced me to put it back in and to find a way to make it all work.
  • SnidelySnidely Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13098Members
    edited June 2003
    No, thank <i>you</i>. Keep up the good work. :D
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