Alien Hive Rooms Way Too Big
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Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14574Members
Join Date: 2003-03-16 Member: 14574Members
<div class="IPBDescription">please mappers consider it</div> In quite a few maps the hive locations are simply way too big.
I even think it ruins the athmosphere as it seems illogical for the aliens to occupy a room where they essentially can't defend it with their bias for melee attacks. If I were an alien, I would try to find some secluded, damp, warm and out-of-the-way spot to put up my hive.
These big rooms also give the marines an advantage were they shouldn't have one, after all they are in the aliens territory.
Examples:
TOO BIG:
-ns_nothing: Viaduct, Power Silo is almost too big
-ns_eclipse: Eclipse, Maint and even Computer Core. Though most of these rooms have enough dark corners and such
-ns_hera: Ventilation, Archiving almost too big, yet makes up for providing lots of (damaged) architecture for the aliens to use
-ns_tanith: all of the hive locations are too big to feel right and some aren't even properly infested (texture wise)
-ns_bast: Refinery has interesting architecture but is too big, engine is almost too big
WELL SIZED:
-ns_nothing: Cargo Hive, except those three res nearby I think it's a well designed hive location
-ns_bast: Feedwater Hive, now that hive has just the right size as well as being wonderfully infested
-ns_caged: most of the hive rooms could be a tad smaller, but they all are well thought out and feel right
It's just my opinion and I felt like saying it once.
I even think it ruins the athmosphere as it seems illogical for the aliens to occupy a room where they essentially can't defend it with their bias for melee attacks. If I were an alien, I would try to find some secluded, damp, warm and out-of-the-way spot to put up my hive.
These big rooms also give the marines an advantage were they shouldn't have one, after all they are in the aliens territory.
Examples:
TOO BIG:
-ns_nothing: Viaduct, Power Silo is almost too big
-ns_eclipse: Eclipse, Maint and even Computer Core. Though most of these rooms have enough dark corners and such
-ns_hera: Ventilation, Archiving almost too big, yet makes up for providing lots of (damaged) architecture for the aliens to use
-ns_tanith: all of the hive locations are too big to feel right and some aren't even properly infested (texture wise)
-ns_bast: Refinery has interesting architecture but is too big, engine is almost too big
WELL SIZED:
-ns_nothing: Cargo Hive, except those three res nearby I think it's a well designed hive location
-ns_bast: Feedwater Hive, now that hive has just the right size as well as being wonderfully infested
-ns_caged: most of the hive rooms could be a tad smaller, but they all are well thought out and feel right
It's just my opinion and I felt like saying it once.
Comments
Note that cold, dank and dark are not the requirements of Khaara hives. They seek places with plentyful energy for the biomass.
--Scythe--
so for the ha is much more skill needed, teamplay and durability...
the hiverooms I hate:
nothing: viaduct (worst hive ever), powersilo (aliens arent able to defend when its last hive)
bast: refinery (only defendable with level 2 lerk sitting on the hive)
tanith: wastehandling
nancy: all hives because the airducts doesnt give skulks an advantage (as it should be) wile they arent able to get in easily. with lerks its nearly impossible. only jp can get trough without serious trouble
there are only few hives that give the aliens an advantage and there is nearly no hive where the aliens doesnt get spawn-camped by marine troops (except where the spawns are placed well like ventilation hive on caged)
to build an laine friendly hive is not as easy as some ppl believe.
I also critized the sometimes lacking or hastily done infestation (textures and geometry).
<b>Lt.Gravity</b>: I so much agree with you on the vents in nancy. Vents are supposed to be "alien territory", "skulk speedways". However the idiotic openings to the vents in nancy make it really hard for a skulk to get in. Even once you're inside you keep having navigational trouble as they provide you with no marks or distinct features for orientation.
mappers dont need to compensate stuff.
the ns team wants to tell us that vents, airducts and small passages are for aliens only. since the crouching marine is as high as a skulk, the jp marines can get everywhere they want. this makes absolutely no sense! thx ns team. this is also the reason why ns maps cant be as complex as we all think. vents should ONLY be for aliens, marines even jp should take alternate routes. and this is also the cause why the lame "jp rushing" takes place. but Im working at some special items that doesnt let the jpler reach the hives. it was meant as support and now its the losers way to win...
cant believe that webs are a third hive ability in 1.1 what Im missing: hives that feel cosy for aliens <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
the ns team wants to tell us that vents, airducts and small passages are for aliens only. since the crouching marine is as high as a skulk, the jp marines can get everywhere they want. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This couldn't be helped - there are only three sizes available for clipping. This is an hl engine limitation.
mappers dont need to compensate stuff. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disaggree with you. The maps are the stages, the enviroments in which the game takes place. They are also the most important part to create the atmosphere. They are the only way to perceive the NS universe for the players. Now I know there are mapping guidelines but I haven't read them all that carefully, I just skimmed over them. But after I did, I couldn't help but notice how some of the official maps don't follow these guidelines in places.
However, I think as NS gains popularity and mappers become more involved and in-tune with the NS universe most of my objections and criticisms will just solve itself.
But mappers have the responsibility to create believable, consistant, balanced and playable maps. That's quite some work but I also think the mappers have so far done a really great job and achived most of these requirements.
And it's up to us players to give them feedback. Which is what I am doing.
Now some issues can't really be solved once the map is released, BUT there is a second chance comming, namely 1.1. With 1.1 there will be new maps but there can be revised and improved maps as well.
So far I didn't mention the whole JP rushing issue, as that is a highly controversial issue as well. Besides I'm less concerned about those elements of gameplay - a JP+HMG rush CAN be countered, it's just really hard - as I'm more concerned with consistancy of atmosphere.
While you don't notice it consiously, map layout and texturing DOES affect your gameplay, not only with architecture but with atmosphere.
<i>there are only three sizes, hl limitation...</i>
thats why there are some serious fgd changes are needed. trigger_passable with flags for each team and no complicated anti-jp-stuff is necessary any more.
<i>mapper decide the gameplay</i>
there is nothing more important than the maps. the mapper is the most powerful person in/for ns. besides flayra <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> his decisions change the ns universe to the good or to the worse.
best example for good map layout: ns_europa. we played it yesterday on our server (4 vs 4) and I got flamed "man, this map sucks!" we played it. after 1/2 hour there was non of the "shitmap" comments anymore. what should I say? best match this month!!! we had so much fun playing europa. and the best thing: because its so small, there were only few jp attacks that were easy to hanlde. but the aliens werent able to win the match even if we had the 3rd hive! and then the fun really started! ha+hmg, lerks, fades, gorges, a few jp+hmg, and ONOS! our team lost nearly 10 onos till we were able to defeat the marines. when we crushed their homebase they destroyed 2 hives! it was a amazing game. and this map really rocks. its the balanced map I ever saw for ns.
the ns team wants to tell us that vents, airducts and small passages are for aliens only. since the crouching marine is as high as a skulk, the jp marines can get everywhere they want. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This couldn't be helped - there are only three sizes available for clipping. This is an hl engine limitation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess it might be possible for the NS team to make an entity that only one team can walk through, which could be used to prevent vent access to marines.
Better yet, I suppose then mappers could be selective about what vents marines can use.
---
edit: Hmm, once again I see I'm saying something said by a previous poster. Oops and sorry.
but its a fact that the ns fgd features to few entities useful for mapping that makes kind a sense. trigger_hurt teamspecific is the most wanted entity (from my side) that should be implemented. only this would fix 10.000.000 problems that mappers have with their balance. but I guess it will not added. ... what to say? its a MUST! its like the respawn security on the updated dod 1.0 maps: if one player doesnt want to play fair in the sense of the game: trigger_hurt 100000. problem solved. there are many unfair players out there. and I would like to see other mappers craft the hives that the some respawns arent in the line of fire by regular marine troops. even if the last hive gets attacked the aliens should be able to kill the attacking forces.
Better yet, I suppose then mappers could be selective about what vents marines can use.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--QuoteBegin--Lt.Gravity+Jun 23 2003, 12:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Lt.Gravity @ Jun 23 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but its a fact that the ns fgd features to few entities useful for mapping that makes kind a sense. trigger_hurt teamspecific is the most wanted entity (from my side) that should be implemented. only this would fix 10.000.000 problems that mappers have with their balance. but I guess it will not added. ... what to say? its a MUST! its like the respawn security on the updated dod 1.0 maps: if one player doesnt want to play fair in the sense of the game: trigger_hurt 100000. problem solved.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flayra's done plenty enough with NS. Why bother him with something new to add like a trigger_passable or whatever when as it is it only takes 2 entites to block any jetpacker out of any vent any time. (that's 2 entities for every vent entrance - as opposed to 1 trigger passable - hardly a big deal unless you have a ton of vents) I don't think trigger_hurt really needs to be team specific. Just slapping down big trigger hurt everywhere to kill off incoming marines won't help much, besides, how would the marines feel when you just kill them off for seemingly no reason? There are much better ways that don't involve trigger hurts. If there's one single solitary thing that I'm hoping is added above anything else it's movewith from Spirit of Halflife. That would be much more useful.
possibility 1: trigger_push - problem is that no alien will be able to take the way back
possibility 2: trigger_push twice - technique for instant "web" marines in connection with trigger_presence, problem that all aliens will be "webbed", too! marines can still fire weapons
possibility 3: trigger_hurt but its against camping not for blocking
possibility 4: there are no that come to my mind
what we lern out of this: blocking marines is not possible without any specific entity. but blocking marines is necessary in some cases. argh, I will build a hive and you jpuser will have all the fun you deserve... like getting webbed, skulk biten, lerk shoten and onos paralyzed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> niahahahahahaha
You overlooked the simplest and easiest one. A func_wall_toggle combined with a trigger_presence. The func wall will block part of the vent opening so that it's too small for marines to fit through, but they can still shoot grenades or whatnot in. And the trigger presence will detect aliens and drop the func_wall_toggle. Worse-case scenario : a marine surprises an alien coming out of the vent and get stuck in the func_wall, otherwise marines couldn't get into the vents at all. [My Idea TM]
NS is a game of exploration and discovery as well as an RTS. Remember how much fun it was exploring a new map and finding all the secrets? Remember how cool it was to find a secret vent cloaked in shadow? You try to enter, but are prevented by an invisible wall. Some mapper, in his infinite arrogance, has decided that you may not enter this vent, in defiance of all laws of physics. Immersion is shattered, enjoyment crumbles.
Rather than trying to completely prevent marine vent access through unrealistic, arbitrary measures, you would be better off accepting that jetpack marines can use vents and planning accordingly. Learn from the examples set by the original official maps: Don't put vent exits within the line of sight of hives, like Satcom in Tanith, or Noname in Nancy, or Computer Core in Eclipse. Or, if you must put a vent in a hive, make the vent take a sharp turn as soon as it enters the wall so that a marine can't crouch way back and shoot.
Ok, rant over.
I take offense to that. I think it's completely unrealistic to have marines in vents. It's not 'defiance of the laws of physics', it's common sense. Imagine a hole in the wall 3 feet by 3 feet. I'm quite skinny myself and I know it wouldn't be easy for me to fit through there. Certainly not while crouching, weapon ready. I would have to crawl through, slowly, on my belly. That's just me, not a marine wearing body armor, carrying a weapon, maybe 2 or 3, probably wearing a jetpack or maybe even heavy armor. There is no way in hell he's fitting through there. But a skulk sure could.
By the way, the vent to satcom on tanith takes a 90* turn right away, that doesn't hinder marines from exploiting it in the least.
By the way, the vent to satcom on tanith takes a 90* turn right away, that doesn't hinder marines from exploiting it in the least. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
"Common sense" would seem to dictate that a hole big enough to allow the passage of a marine should be navigable by a marine.
The 3x3 hole you speak of doesn't exist in Half-Life. You are probably thinking of the old adage that 10 units in game = 1 foot, but that system quickly breaks down. Under that system, the average marine is 7 feet tall, can leap 3.5 feet straight up, and can run the 40 yard dash faster than any human ever. Not very realistic, which seems to be the objection here. Any attempt to equate game units with some real life measurement is going to fail. So, vents aren't 3x3. They are 32 units by 32 units, and that's big enough for a marine.
So, since the holes are clearly big enough for a marine to crawl through, as demonstrated by the fact that they CAN crawl through them, there's no reason to prevent them from doing so. Preventing them from doing something which should clearly be possible will only destroy the immersion factor and anger potential players.
Also, the vent in SatCom doesn't turn RIGHT AWAY. I'm imagining a vent that goes something like 40 units back and then turns (an 8 unit wall), meaning a marine would have to be standing right at the exit to fire. On Tanith the vent goes roughly 256 units into the wall before turning.
As far as sizing goes I was going by the valve standard 1 unit = 1 inch. Yes, I know that your perspective is distorted. But if you think about it, that adds to my arguement. Marines in the game as bigger and better than people are in real life. A 7 foot person crouching in a 3 foot vent... come on, that's even more far-fetched than I originally suggested.
To summarize : Vents don't look like they're big enough for marines. And the only reason marine can fit in them is because of a engine limitation. I don't think marines belong in vents. And if marines must be in vents, they shouldn't be able to use their big guns. I'd say force them to use stealth by only allowing knife to be used while crouching. ( assuming the hitbox bugs are also fixed so crouching marines can actually be bitten ) How might that sound? Marines can sneak around in vents but not camp in them. The only difference is that would have to be done by devs, where are preventing marines from going into vents would be done by mappers and wouldn't require a patch.
The following quotes are straight from the mapping guidelines style guide section.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hive rooms should be medium-sized areas suitable for alien spawning and a giant alien hive structure (...).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, just what is "medium sized"?
I feel for example Feedwater Hive in ns_bast has just the right size, whereas Refinery Hive in the same map is way to big. Another example would be Cargo Hive and Viaduct Hive on ns_nothing. Cargo Hive is almost the right size, maybe a bit too big/long. On the other side of the scale would be Viaduct hive: it's just too big vertically.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The exit point of the hive should be facing the middle of the room, and marines shouldn't have a clear line of sight to the hive from other rooms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quite a few hive rooms don't adhere at all to this guideline. I don't think I need to give examples.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hive rooms should favor defensive fighting, with short passageways and cover suitable for flanking, turning and enveloping. A significant vertical component gives an advantage to the aliens with their crawling and flying abilities.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While Viaduct Hive on ns_nothing has the "significant vertical component" it just lacks the other suggestions. There is hardly any cover and "flanking, turning and enveloping".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There can also be some ground that is unbuildable for marines to make it harder for marines to fortify. When doing this, however, keep in mind that aliens should be able to build at the hive sites.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nothing to remark here ^^.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There should be multiple passageways in and out of hive rooms, possibly including ones that link to adjacent hive rooms and are only accessible by aliens. Travel between hive rooms, however, should usually require going partway back to the marine base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A good example for this would be Noname Hive on ns_nancy. There are four ways you can enter and exit that hive room. <b>However</b> all of these passages are accessible by marines with JPs. (JPs begin to be a big design and implementation flaw, reading up on all this stuff)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>Create Alien Only Paths</b> - The basic layout should include areas where the aliens can take alternate paths not accessible to marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which would in the easiest case be vents and ducts. A crouching marine won't be able to get in vents and ducts unless he has some help. Whether that be a JP or some teammates hoisting him into that vent, it should be an achivement and require skill as well as teamplay. That's where the JP fails again...
At this point let me pick again on ns_nancy. The openings to the vents/ducts make it unneccesarily hard for aliens to get in.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens should be encouraged to use areas accessible to marines about half the time. Making tunnels more difficult to access or longer than the regular hallways can help to encourage this behavior.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
However annoying these vent entrances in ns_nancy might be, they do just that. If I'm, going to read this thing and use it to drive my point home, I can just as well give credit where it's due.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Unfortunatly either you have the alien-only passageways or not since JPs can use them as well. So I think Lt.Gravity's suggestion should be considered! An entity which allows team specific passage could be of great use for the mappers.
There is much more that could be quoted and commented, my best advice however is: Read the Mapping Guidelines, read them well. Play the game on <b>both</b> sides a lot! Maybe even read some of the fiction and fan fiction.
Get the Feel for the NS universe, you'll be making a lot more atmospheric maps and we players will notice it by having epic, interesting matches on your map as well as lasting memories.
There should also be shortcuts through the map available to marines with jetpacks that have advantages over normal routes, rewarding the commander for research on jetpack technology.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really dont know why there is no single map that features this simple idea. but it would be so cool!
jp+hmg seems to me the most unrealistic part in ns, jp marines would be smashed by their own gun when the fly against a wall with high speed <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> niahaha! the hmg doesnt looked like it was designed for the jp crews. such fast and quick moving troops would have small weapons (only lmg?) imagine the assault marines in warhammer 40.000. btw the chainsword rocks <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
carried away a bit...
imagine: there is a destroyed catwalk/bridge/hallway where normal marines fall to death. whta to do? here comes the jetpacker! a troop flies over the gap, builds a phasegate or welder a button that lowers a floor you can easily walk over. that is how the jplers should act. they are meant for quick support, fast scouting troops and not for the muronish loserhiverush...