The Medpack Spam Issue From Beta Discussion
THAU
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12551Members
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12551Members
Seems like a very contested issue in the beta forums - but most agree there is a potential problem depending on the situation.
What if medpacks provide a temporary Regeneration (similar to the alien upgrade) to marines? For say 10-30 seconds it provides marines with 10 health points every second. This means it's pointless to spam medpacks as their effect is gradual and they wont stack, but the effect of one medpack can be much greater in the long run. It won't necessarily save him from 3 skulks attacking as he walks over a carpet of medpacks - but if he decides to retreat he will regenerate to full health.
Suits the whole purpose of a healing, it's not an instant effect, it happens over time. The 'healing nanites' in the manual/background story also take time to repair... There is no such thing as Instant cure! Also raises the effect of the medpack to a total of 100 to 300 health points (depending on max time..) which is not bad for 2 res points. Provide a visual flashing 'hospital cross' when the marine is under the effect of the medpacks healing so he knows.
Also increases the choice to a damaged marine. He can stay and fight risking death through the slow regeneration, or he can pull back for a few seconds to heal fully then return to the battle safe in the knowledge that the 'health nanites' will provide him a boost until they run out.
Only food for thought - but there won't be many that disagree that it has to be altered somehow.
Provide your own suggestions too - this is really a community issue. Needs feedback from all!
What if medpacks provide a temporary Regeneration (similar to the alien upgrade) to marines? For say 10-30 seconds it provides marines with 10 health points every second. This means it's pointless to spam medpacks as their effect is gradual and they wont stack, but the effect of one medpack can be much greater in the long run. It won't necessarily save him from 3 skulks attacking as he walks over a carpet of medpacks - but if he decides to retreat he will regenerate to full health.
Suits the whole purpose of a healing, it's not an instant effect, it happens over time. The 'healing nanites' in the manual/background story also take time to repair... There is no such thing as Instant cure! Also raises the effect of the medpack to a total of 100 to 300 health points (depending on max time..) which is not bad for 2 res points. Provide a visual flashing 'hospital cross' when the marine is under the effect of the medpacks healing so he knows.
Also increases the choice to a damaged marine. He can stay and fight risking death through the slow regeneration, or he can pull back for a few seconds to heal fully then return to the battle safe in the knowledge that the 'health nanites' will provide him a boost until they run out.
Only food for thought - but there won't be many that disagree that it has to be altered somehow.
Provide your own suggestions too - this is really a community issue. Needs feedback from all!
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also raises the effect of the medpack to a total of 100 to 300 health points (depending on max time..) which is not bad for 2 res points.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could you explain what you mean by this, have the marine health go upto 300? or .....?
Ezekiel - I meant there is the Potential for the medpack to heal 300 (well.. seconds X hp per sec) points over its lifetime of effect as the marine may not be on 100 health at any point (under constant attack).
The real skill with medpacks is hitting a Jetpacker flying accross the room - Feel a sense of pride when you do that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Blanketting an area with medpacks only takes a few resources and a hotkey. Doesn't promote variable tactics on the marine side either. The choice for Marines with gradual healing:
a) Stay and fight risking death on low health.
b) Retreat a little and regenerate to full health before I enter the melee again.
Would promote the forward marines to cover their healing comrades.
i dunno...
i haven't posted in a while, gotta do something... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
A medpack research prerequisite was tested in 1.1, and removed due to the fact that there was no reason NOT to invest in it (research cost was like 15 res or something). Every comm would get the medpack upgrade ASAP, so Flayra removed it.
Comms that medspam ARE punished with diminished res. Is it really worth spending 30+ res on healing a marine if he ends up dying within 10 seconds anyway? Personally I don't think it's that much of a problem. If the marines can afford to literally cover the floor in medpacks, it's a failure on the aliens part for letting them get so many res points in the first place.
Res denial seems to play a big part in 1.1 (according to the reports in the beta forums anyway), so perhaps you should keep this in mind and focus on this in preparation for 1.1.
I'd rather this discussion about the ramifications of the game's creator considering medpack spam not an exploit. Comprox said it very well in the beta forum, that just leaning on a hotkey isn't a measure of commander skill, he could have done that at age 4.
The Vets and PTs think it's a problem and from playing since the day 1.0 was released, I've found the way medpacks work not very tactical (compared to alien methods) or skillful. Medpack spam in certain instances can create a real problem. Savant pointed out that it can really hurt the aliens in 1.1 if one marine (or a squad) takes out an alien res node early in the game with the help of medpack spam. They could throw their whole team at the marines - yet get nowhere and lose that node...
And marines effectively get a lot of the Res spent on medpacks back just from res for kills...
if you have the res........
Do you think it can be exploited though to lockdown the Aliens easily - starving them of res? Considering Res for Kills gives a lot of the res back used in medpack spamming.
We are all just after a balanced Natural-Selection with a LOT more emphasis on tactics and strategy. Medpacks have always seemed too easy and nothing in 1.1 has appeared to change that, with res for kills even making them more lucrative. My suggestion was only for increasing their tactical usage. Some disadvantages, but over the long term a nicer bonus. Giving the marine some choices and not forcing the aliens to give up because of it.
Seen people go psycho over med spamming and just quit the game.... The less things that irritate the better for the life of a game.
It costs res for medpacks people! It ain't free, but kill for res somewhat changes all that in that the wasted medpacks can be redeemed in killed skulks. And Grendel made a good point in that if a medpack supported marine gets killed his value is also wasted cause you spend 20 res in keeping him alive. It's just like dying with a shotgun or HMG.
Anyway, I like how medpacks are now. It shouldn't be like regeneration or otherwise it would end up being solely a post-pre battle thing. Medpacks is the closest thing a commander has to "micromanagement" in this game.
As a side note, the reason many of us think of this as a commander skill is because we are differentiating between senseless med spamming and constantly keeping your marines at full health one health pack at a time. I agree, given enough resources, any commander can just slam the hotkey and drop health packs all over his marines. But as I said above, does this really work out in the marines favor (15 to 20 resources for a mere skulk kill)? On the flip side, a commander that only uses a couple of medpacks to keep his marine alive is exercising a fair amount of medpack dropping skill in my opinion. Of course, just to note, even two medpacks in 1.1 is 4 RPs which still tips the resource outcome in the alien's favor.
Hmm.. I don't think its too easy at all. Not very man commanders can hit a jetpacker in mid-air.
Good point, I didn't consider this. With this in mind, it's quite possible that medspam may be a small cause for concern, but I seriously doubt it's a major game breaker. Of course if this is all a comm does, he'll soon be out of res without acheiving much .. you'll find a decent comm will rarely medspam for this reason. However I can see that the aliens really don't have an equivalent form of healing which is where this becomes unbalanced.
Honestly I don't see medspams that often right now, but if the aliens were given an equivalent form of healing spam the marines would get slaughtered.
I can't come up with any suggestions apart from leave it as it is. The HoT (heal over time) suggestion is rather interesting, but you'll find that 90% of the time a marine doesn't have the chance to back off in a 'battle'. Usually he's fighting for his life, to kill that skulk/lerk before it gets within melee distance.. cause when it does the marine is usually a goner. My personal preference is to leave medpacks how they are, or if a change HAS to be implemented, perhaps just a 2-3 second delay between medpack drops.
It's called many many DCs. Ever try to kill any lerk, gorge, fade or onos and killed one sitting next to a pile of DCs. It's impossible. You need a GL to first clear the DCs and GL is a high level option much like Fades can make mincement out of med supported marines.
Critical - I did mention that hitting a Jetpacker mid-flight is quite a skill and is not easy at all. One of our clan commander (who gave up ns.. ) could hit you mid-flight regardless with a metpack or ammo - was amazingly useful.
It's called many many DCs. Ever try to kill any lerk, gorge, fade or onos and killed one sitting next to a pile of DCs. It's impossible. You need a GL to first clear the DCs and GL is a high level option much like Fades can make mincement out of med supported marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yea, but you won't see many DC's in 1.1 - there simply isn't enough res in the game to build walls anymore.
Compare an 8 player 1.04 game with one gorge, 4 RT's and overflow active (which is about the time when walls starts going up). That gorge has an income of about 80 res per minute.
The same in 1.1 will be 60/8 or about 7.5 res/minute. That's a difference of 10 times, and chambers cost 10 res (5 for OC's). Ergo, the relative price of a wall of lame for a gorge has been increased about 7 times or so (and it's of course even worse for larger games).
Thus, the game as it stands won't see all that many non-upgrade chambers around. Building healing chambers just to heal is just too expensive. You need a gorge around for healing, or you will have to run back to hive to heal.
What is so wrong in squeezing out the victory at a cost? Something wrong in picking your battles for the best outcome? What I'm seeing here is resentment in not being able to kill the marine that is medsupported. I don't see anybody complaining about being shot in the face with a shot gun or run over by HA.
And about you're 1.1 thing, I haven't played 1.1, I wouldn't know. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, if the med carpet is the concern then simply having those medpacks consumed for +0 health could help it (as marines walking would instantly consume them whether they needed it or not). This would put emphasis on skillful use of medpacks rather then just spamming it.
It's called many many DCs. Ever try to kill any lerk, gorge, fade or onos and killed one sitting next to a pile of DCs. It's impossible. You need a GL to first clear the DCs and GL is a high level option much like Fades can make mincement out of med supported marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Correct, however I neglected to mention DCs as they are not an insta-heal available to the aliens anywhere on the map.
Medpacks are.
I like your suggestion of marines using up medpack on the ground for +0 health. Simple - but very effective.
So, the average commander can use medpacks as they should be, and only heal people when they absolutely need it. By doing so, he should always have some energy left in the observatory. In the late game, the commander can build multiple observatories so that he can spam more medpacks without "shorting out". So, as a commander, you actually have to invest quite a bit of money in building 4 or so observatories to make medspam a viable option. As far as strategies go, medspam will still exist as a "commander skill" for the marines; it'll just require a bit more of an investment (plus it will also put a bit more emphasis on the skill of AIMING medpacks). And it will give aliens something to target if they find some invincible jetbo ramboing their hive. Sounds fair to me...
In addition, go back to Savant's post on the marine owning 4 skulks and their res node.
The problem there is that the marine is already strong enough to deal that much damage.
If skulks could deal 2x the damage to the back of a marine, then the lone marine would be dead. Savant's example looks to me as an imbalance issue between skulks + marines.