a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--QuoteBegin--Mullet+Jun 26 2003, 06:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Jun 26 2003, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the creators of this game wanted us to use scripts and switch between leaping/biting hella fast, they would have made it that way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And they did.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
The reason I don't consider leap or blink scripts to be cheating is that the advantage they give is so incredibly minuscule that I consider them merely a convenience. I <i>would</i> consider a rocket jump script cheating, and I hope they wont be possible with the 1.1 acid rocket.
<!--QuoteBegin--bon_Homme+Jun 26 2003, 10:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bon_Homme @ Jun 26 2003, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're playing baseball with your buddies, having a good time; everyone is putting their all into the game. Now the opposing team is up with an aluminum bat as opposed to the wooden one you were using in the prior inning (Aluminum bats hit much farther than wooden). The game hasn't changed; the rules are still the same. The skill of the individual players hasn't changed either. The aluminum bat has artificially enhanced the abilities of the oppsising team. The game isn't fun anymore. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The aluminum bat is only a problem, in that friendly game, if the team with the wooden bat has no access to an aluminum bat. What if the they were told that they could get an aluminum bat for their team if they walked down the road to the community center and signed one out (like the first team did)? Now they have 3 choices: 1). go get an aluminum bat, 2). stay with the wooden bat and just play the game, or 3). play with wooden bat and **** and moan about the "unfair" advantage because they are too lazy to go get an aluminum bat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Harmful scripts are like the aluminum bat. They're tools that enhance the game beyond the agreed terms of play. They make one player more skilled than the other, whether he is or not. If both teams had aluminum bats the baseball game would again be a blast. If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. That script would be part of the rules everybody had to play by from the get go. The idea of even competition would return and the game would be fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The <b>ability</b> to "script" comes with Half-life and is available in Natural Selection for every person. Simply because the actual script doesn't come packaged with the game, doesn't make it a cheat or harmful. You are basically arguing that these scripts are wrong because they take a little effort to create and setup. Once again you have 3 choices: 1). go find/write a script to do what you want (I have posted all of mine), 2). don't use a script and just play the game, 3). don't use a script and **** and moan about the "unfair" advantage <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By these rules though, binding a button to drop health would be a harmful script. As it was something created outside release package. Common sense says it isn't harmful though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common sense tells me that a commander health spamming with a script has a serious advantages over commanders like me that never bothered to setup a script for it. I'm lucky if I can drop 1 health pack a second using the current interface, while a scripted commander can spam 5-10 in that same time span. I would say <b>that</b> script is more unbalancing then any leap script could be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To keep your games fair and honest (if you're running scripts) let the people you're playing with know that you've got them running.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't advertise that I am using scripts in-game (i.e. my leap button doesn't "say Leap script activated!"), because that would be annoying as hell (although I do have some announcements on my Gorge build scripts, and those <b>do</b> annoy some people!) But I try to make them publicly available for anyone else that wants to use them. I have no problem sharing my scripts.
Unfair advantage? Huh huh. Last time I checked, anyone can pull the console and start typing stuff. Refusing to use such a feature is up to you, but don't go around calling people cheaters because they are using something THAT'S ALSO AVAILABLE TO YOU when you're not. If we weren't "meant" to be able to script, 2 VERY SIMPLE changes could be made: the removal/blocking of the "alias" command, and the inability to bind more than 1 command to a single key (no multiple commands separated by semi-colons.) This would completely murder scripting with the possible exception of the ability to bind keys to exec other .cfgs with different bind configurations (for different classes and such), which ANYONE who is remotely SANE would agree is not cheating.
Call me a jackass, but pretty much everyone I've seen who was anti-script, the people in this thread included, simply did not know what they are talking about. Let me make it clear to you: most if not all of the stuff you think scripting can do, scripting cannot do. I know a lot about scripting, I could probably make any script I wanted. Yet, I basically don't use any scripts at all, except for a few misc. things here and there (different .cfg files for different classes mostly.) Why? Because scripting in the HL engine is so limited you can do very little more than gimmick stuff that usually serves no practical purpose in a game.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->QUOTE Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you missed his point, he said binding a key to health spam is common sense(flayra feels health spamming is a feature) while something like binding attack the mouse wheel to fire a pistol super-quickly is wrong. Bon_homme explained things pretty well, there's a gray area inbetween where people can have an opinion about some scripts like a leap script.
I don't use scripts, maybe I press a few extra buttons, but I enjoy the flexibility. It would seem like the script is playing the game for me. (Of course scripts that don't effect game play, like binding a text messages, aren't playing the game for you) Overall, I feel scripts are unsportsmanlike in most cases, and therefore I don't use them.
<!--QuoteBegin--locallyunscene+Jun 27 2003, 04:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (locallyunscene @ Jun 27 2003, 04:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think you missed his point, he said binding a key to health spam is common sense(flayra feels health spamming is a feature) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It might seem common sense to you, but will the newbie commander be able to do it? Is there a means of binding a key to health spam in the Options screen?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If bon_Homme is going to argue that scripts are harmful because not everyone has immediate access to them, then he can't just turn around and say that it's ok for comm health spam. I can tell someone how to add a leap script just as easily as I could tell them how to bind health spam to a key. What makes one worse than the other? The amount of skill that is replaced by the script?
When was it determined to be ok to remove the mouse skills of the commander and replace them with a simple script? It takes a lot more skill to quickly move the mouse to the health pack button and back to your marines, then it does to press the 2 key and mouse1 as a skulk. The comm health spam bind is surely removing more skill from the game than a leap script, yet you seem to have no problem justifying it. I just love contradictions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skill this, skill that. Yack yack yack. I throw the word "skill" around even though I haven't properly defined it and haven't even explained how it's supposed to matter in any way in my argumentation.
Binds should be banned. We should all play the game exclusively with the console. Pure typing skills baby!
I bet there will still be people who will say that using the up arrow to repeat the previous command isn't as "skilled" as typing it a second time in its entirety.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->where in the thread did it say we should list our control keys? Can we get back on thread plz? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Where in the thread does it say it's not allowed to post your binds
hehe, this is a funny thread. Anyone of you played games like Quake? I myself played q3 for years, and this thread is really amusing. I am sure anyone that played quake would instantly roll on the floor laughing after reading stuff like this. Most of you guys have such a huge panic of cheats and exploits that you entirely lost your sense for reality (the counterstrike syndrome?).
Binds with one or more ";" (then I'd call them scripts) are in no way cheats/exploits, unless they make use of already known exploits, like the 0-energy leap or the missing reloadtime between pistol shots (so you can unload the entire clip very quickly). If you guys knew what scripts in other games are widely used and even officially supported/advanced you would be shocked to death <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--Papercut+Jun 27 2003, 01:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Papercut @ Jun 27 2003, 01:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Leap, Blink and Pistol scripts are equally lame.
If you cant bind it via the options menu, you werent meant to bind it.
Easy, huh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I do not see it that way. I got myself into modmaking for UT 2003, and you just cannot place binds for every possible way to use a gun/item into the menu, that would totally overload the interface.
And I do not think half life is able to add whole scripts bindable to keys in the menu (considering UT2003 is not). The menu is there for basic keybindings for new players, more experienced players can use configs.
Leap was added as a weapon, so you have to pick a slot and then press fire to use it. But I do not think that the developers added leap as a weapon so everyone has to press two keys to actually use it, no they added it as a weapon because that is the easiest way to add a new ability to a pawn (easiest in terms of implementing it into the game and being used by players without having to know scripting).
This is an age old argument. But I feel that if a script DOES NOT exploit a coding error. Then how can it be considered a cheat. If it is a cheat, then I cheat by using my scroll click to switch to lastinv. And my brother cheats by using a mouse with like 5 buttons on it bound to quick switch between weapons.
Scripts and general Half-Life engine knowhow, is what seperates the normal gamers from the power gamers.
If I turn hud fastswtich on I automatically have a 3 second advantage over most normal players who don't know it exsists. This is not a cheat/exploit. It's an option.
I've now finished my bindings, As alien I have mosuewheelup to slot 3 (leap) and mousewheel down to slot 1 (bite). It's just about the same as the regular nextweapon/last etc function, except it only uses two weapons instead of all 4, as the other two are rarely used. As a marine i have it set to slot 2 and 1.
If anyone calls this cheating, then so must binding alternate keys be cheating. Binding any key must be cheating.
No, because you can bind keys to commands via the ingame config menu. Theres nothing in the config menu pertaining to "unload ten shots in half a second", or "leap then switch to bite".
As for saying anyone can scroll down console and input commands and binds. Well anyone can download the latest cheats, install them, and not have to bother with aiming again. Of course the distinction here is that cheats aren't built into the game. So thats why I liken scripts to map exploiting. Its things that may not be controled for, they are in the game, but they are unfair, and not mean't, by the developers, to be used. As for scripting being accepted in other games. Well this debate isn't about other games, its about HL, NS specifically.
I don't feel it's that much of a bigger deal, I use one.
This is because I learnt half life with arrow keys and have been playing for 3 years with them now.
Obviously I can't use the numbers to change to leap and use it effectively coz it's miles out of the way for me so I have one that enable me to bind leap to mouse4.
Are you saying because of my control choice from the day I started playing half life i should not bother being able to leap at all?
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
No, but neither does...
'A script is okay, because I find the buttons too far otherwise'
Hold completely true g.
Because otherwise, who defines what is 'too far'? Is it still a dodgy thing to do for someone on WASD?
IMO, Scripting anything beyond comms or basic functions (bind 'x' simple command) is somewhat dubious, but it all comes down to what the script does. TBH, A leap script isn't as good as doing it via hud_fastswitch anyway, so not an issue. But pistol scripters should be gived an epidural with a hacksaw.
I think the problem here is that you only have to hit one button to perform what would usually take several button pushes. Many people are aguing that this isnt so much a script as just a bind, however I feel that anything with more than one command in it (eg "slot3;wait;+attack;-attack;wait;slot1;wait;+attack;-attack" or whatever it is) is a SCRIPT not a bind and gives an unfair advantage over someone who doesn't use one. I understand what you're saying about the numbers being too far away from the arrow keys but surely you could just bind some keys that are closer to the arrows to slot1, slot2, slot3 and slot4? I admit that this script doesn't give much advantage over someone who uses the number keys (I do not use a script but have been accused of using one because i can hit 1 and 3 pretty much just as fast as the script does it) but there is still an element of unfairness in the use of any script, in my opinion, and they shouldn't really be used by someone who doesn't consider themself as an exploiter or cheater.
i agree with the young trotsky; whenever people script a button to do perform multiple key presses all at once, it gives an unfair advantage to the scripter. i dont vehemently hate people who script, i just look down at them and shake my head... when i play ns im playing for fun. its not that big of an issue if i win or lose, im just lookin for a good game. ( i admit i would rather win when i play though <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ) whenever i play with people who script, we dont usually have a good game...bleh my 2 cents
Funny how you see almost the exact same arguments as last time this was done. And the time before. Face it, there is no way in hell you can get the scripters to stop using the scripts, because they believe they are right and will stand by that 'till end of time(like most people do with their opinion on the internet).
<!--QuoteBegin--nojmaster+Jun 27 2003, 05:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nojmaster @ Jun 27 2003, 05:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So thats why I liken scripts to map exploiting. Its things that may not be controled for, they are in the game, but they are unfair, and not mean't, by the developers, to be used. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> errrrr... the ability to bind a key to perform multiple commands is not an accident or a bug, any more than hud_fastswitch is a bug. It's a feature of Half-Life itself (as well as anything else built on a Quake engine, AFAIK). Hence, binding a key to perform multiple commands is not in and of itself a cheat or an exploit. In some instances it may make it easier to perform a certain exploit, but in no instance does it actually open up new ones, and in most instances it's used simply to make routine actions more accessible. If leaping and switching to bite in midair is considered an exploit, a longer delay should be imposed on the weapon switching action in the game itself; banning scripts accomplishes nothing, since with arcane key binding schemes or abnormally long fingers you can get the same results without any scripting whatsoever.
Now, using a color spray, on the other hand, IS an exploit, because it was not originally intended by the Half-Life developers. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, using a color spray, on the other hand, IS an exploit, because it was not originally intended by the Half-Life developers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Amen to that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Colour sprays have no effective use other than looking cool, but they go against the usual method of how things are "supposed to be done". Does that mean we should ban them now? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Btw, with my keybindings, I still have to press the same number/sequence of events to leap/bite, but now it is more accessible to me.
<!--QuoteBegin--EnemyWithin+Jun 26 2003, 07:06 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EnemyWithin @ Jun 26 2003, 07:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ... The aluminum bat is only a problem, in that friendly game, if the team with the wooden bat has no access to an aluminum bat. What if the they were told that they could get an aluminum bat for their team if they walked down the road to the community center and signed one out (like the first team did)?
Simply because the actual script doesn't come packaged with the game, doesn't make it a cheat or harmful... You are basically arguing that these scripts are wrong because they take a little effort to create and setup.
Common sense tells me that a commander health spamming with a script has a serious advantages over commanders like me that never bothered to setup a script for it.
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.
I don't advertise that I am using scripts in-game (i.e. my leap button doesn't "say Leap script activated!"), because that would be annoying as hell But I try to make them publicly available for anyone else that wants to use them. I have no problem sharing my scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Hey EnemyWithin, you bring up some good points. (Apologies for use of emboldened type. It's for people like myself who can't stand long posts, and just want the gist)
You're right, if my team wanted, we could go to the community center to get an aluminum bat, we could even borrow the other team's. But assuming the game has already started it's not really fun to stop the game so we can all be on equal playing grounds. Even if we borrow the aluminum bat in the third inning, we still had one inning with a lame wooden bat. To keep the game fair, the opposing team should at least ask us if we mind them using aluminum. Same is true of NS, <b>if the game is already started, it's only the people running scripts who can make the game fair, without stopping play, by simply disabling or announcing the scripts</b>. The major difference between the baseball analogy and NS, is that we can easily see the other team has an aluminum bat. In NS players can't tell whether or not someone is running a script. The onus of keeping things fair is on the scripter.
Again, the issue isn't lazyness in finding a script, or lack of ability in making one. <b>The issue is fairness to the other players, to keeping the game as fun as it can be, by ensuring even-handed competition.</b> This can be done by players anouncing or asking others if they have any questionable scripts running, or server admins, keeping tight reign over what scripts can and can't be used on their servers.
Again, I agree with you. Advertising any and all scripts you've got running during the course of a game can be very annoying. Once, though, at the beginning of a game though, isn't a big deal. <b>One brief global chat message announcing your scripts at logon would be enough.</b> People could see what you had running and could come to their own (hopefully) mature decisions as to whether it affected gameplay or not. To keep the game fair for us llamas out there, you scripters should at least do that for us. Us luddites might sleep better, <i>believing</i> we are more skilled than the general scripting populace.
If you're proud of your scripts and your scripting ability, then tell us about it! Why hide good, hard work? Hiding the scripts you're running just <i>implies</i> cheating, as harmless as they may be.
I don't know a durn thing about scripting. I do not think in any way that it's wrong to script because it's beyond my ability to do it. I have a few scripts running myself for muting, and outputting chat messages (made by people much more talented than me!). Based on my reply here, I've decided that I'm going to start anouncing even these scripts when I log on.
I don't think that I'm qualified to say any script is problematic or wrong, because like locallyunscene said, scripting is a "gray", subjective issue. Unless the Devs come out and sanction or ban specific scripts or types of scripts, there is no objective position you can take on the issue. <b>What I'm suggesting is a way to make play for scripters and non-scripters as fair and as fun as possible.</b>
If anyone here can make a script that announces, at logon, "I've got <i>x</i> and <i>y</i> scripts running, and I'm a complete dinkus", please PM it to me pronto!
Comments
And they did.
The aluminum bat is only a problem, in that friendly game, if the team with the wooden bat has no access to an aluminum bat. What if the they were told that they could get an aluminum bat for their team if they walked down the road to the community center and signed one out (like the first team did)? Now they have 3 choices: 1). go get an aluminum bat, 2). stay with the wooden bat and just play the game, or 3). play with wooden bat and **** and moan about the "unfair" advantage because they are too lazy to go get an aluminum bat <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Harmful scripts are like the aluminum bat. They're tools that enhance the game beyond the agreed terms of play. They make one player more skilled than the other, whether he is or not. If both teams had aluminum bats the baseball game would again be a blast. If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. That script would be part of the rules everybody had to play by from the get go. The idea of even competition would return and the game would be fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The <b>ability</b> to "script" comes with Half-life and is available in Natural Selection for every person. Simply because the actual script doesn't come packaged with the game, doesn't make it a cheat or harmful. You are basically arguing that these scripts are wrong because they take a little effort to create and setup. Once again you have 3 choices: 1). go find/write a script to do what you want (I have posted all of mine), 2). don't use a script and just play the game, 3). don't use a script and **** and moan about the "unfair" advantage <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->By these rules though, binding a button to drop health would be a harmful script. As it was something created outside release package. Common sense says it isn't harmful though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Common sense tells me that a commander health spamming with a script has a serious advantages over commanders like me that never bothered to setup a script for it. I'm lucky if I can drop 1 health pack a second using the current interface, while a scripted commander can spam 5-10 in that same time span. I would say <b>that</b> script is more unbalancing then any leap script could be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To keep your games fair and honest (if you're running scripts) let the people you're playing with know that you've got them running.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't advertise that I am using scripts in-game (i.e. my leap button doesn't "say Leap script activated!"), because that would be annoying as hell (although I do have some announcements on my Gorge build scripts, and those <b>do</b> annoy some people!) But I try to make them publicly available for anyone else that wants to use them. I have no problem sharing my scripts.
Call me a jackass, but pretty much everyone I've seen who was anti-script, the people in this thread included, simply did not know what they are talking about. Let me make it clear to you: most if not all of the stuff you think scripting can do, scripting cannot do. I know a lot about scripting, I could probably make any script I wanted. Yet, I basically don't use any scripts at all, except for a few misc. things here and there (different .cfg files for different classes mostly.) Why? Because scripting in the HL engine is so limited you can do very little more than gimmick stuff that usually serves no practical purpose in a game.
Are you gonna blast the other team for wearing cleats to the game when your'e the dumb shmuck wearing loafers?
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you missed his point, he said binding a key to health spam is common sense(flayra feels health spamming is a feature) while something like binding attack the mouse wheel to fire a pistol super-quickly is wrong. Bon_homme explained things pretty well, there's a gray area inbetween where people can have an opinion about some scripts like a leap script.
I don't use scripts, maybe I press a few extra buttons, but I enjoy the flexibility. It would seem like the script is playing the game for me. (Of course scripts that don't effect game play, like binding a text messages, aren't playing the game for you) Overall, I feel scripts are unsportsmanlike in most cases, and therefore I don't use them.
It might seem common sense to you, but will the newbie commander be able to do it? Is there a means of binding a key to health spam in the Options screen?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If NS 1.1 came packaged with a button bound to "switch to leap, then switch to previous weapon" it wouldn't be harmful because everybody had immediate access to that tool. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If bon_Homme is going to argue that scripts are harmful because not everyone has immediate access to them, then he can't just turn around and say that it's ok for comm health spam. I can tell someone how to add a leap script just as easily as I could tell them how to bind health spam to a key. What makes one worse than the other? The amount of skill that is replaced by the script?
When was it determined to be ok to remove the mouse skills of the commander and replace them with a simple script? It takes a lot more skill to quickly move the mouse to the health pack button and back to your marines, then it does to press the 2 key and mouse1 as a skulk. The comm health spam bind is surely removing more skill from the game than a leap script, yet you seem to have no problem justifying it. I just love contradictions <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Binds should be banned. We should all play the game exclusively with the console. Pure typing skills baby!
+forward
-forward
+left
-left
+lookup
-lookup
+attack
-attack
JUST PWNED A SKULK!!!! ROX0R!!!
+reload
-reload
I bet there will still be people who will say that using the up arrow to repeat the previous command isn't as "skilled" as typing it a second time in its entirety.
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Where in the thread does it say it's not allowed to post your binds
Binds with one or more ";" (then I'd call them scripts) are in no way cheats/exploits, unless they make use of already known exploits, like the 0-energy leap or the missing reloadtime between pistol shots (so you can unload the entire clip very quickly). If you guys knew what scripts in other games are widely used and even officially supported/advanced you would be shocked to death <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->.
If you cant bind it via the options menu, you werent meant to bind it.
Easy, huh?
If you cant bind it via the options menu, you werent meant to bind it.
Easy, huh? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I do not see it that way. I got myself into modmaking for UT 2003, and you just cannot place binds for every possible way to use a gun/item into the menu, that would totally overload the interface.
And I do not think half life is able to add whole scripts bindable to keys in the menu (considering UT2003 is not). The menu is there for basic keybindings for new players, more experienced players can use configs.
Leap was added as a weapon, so you have to pick a slot and then press fire to use it. But I do not think that the developers added leap as a weapon so everyone has to press two keys to actually use it, no they added it as a weapon because that is the easiest way to add a new ability to a pawn (easiest in terms of implementing it into the game and being used by players without having to know scripting).
Scripts and general Half-Life engine knowhow, is what seperates the normal gamers from the power gamers.
If I turn hud fastswtich on I automatically have a 3 second advantage over most normal players who don't know it exsists. This is not a cheat/exploit. It's an option.
Just my .02$
Superfly
As a marine i have it set to slot 2 and 1.
If anyone calls this cheating, then so must binding alternate keys be cheating. Binding any key must be cheating.
As for saying anyone can scroll down console and input commands and binds. Well anyone can download the latest cheats, install them, and not have to bother with aiming again. Of course the distinction here is that cheats aren't built into the game. So thats why I liken scripts to map exploiting. Its things that may not be controled for, they are in the game, but they are unfair, and not mean't, by the developers, to be used. As for scripting being accepted in other games. Well this debate isn't about other games, its about HL, NS specifically.
This is because I learnt half life with arrow keys and have been playing for 3 years with them now.
Obviously I can't use the numbers to change to leap and use it effectively coz it's miles out of the way for me so I have one that enable me to bind leap to mouse4.
Are you saying because of my control choice from the day I started playing half life i should not bother being able to leap at all?
'A script is okay, because I find the buttons too far otherwise'
Hold completely true g.
Because otherwise, who defines what is 'too far'? Is it still a dodgy thing to do for someone on WASD?
IMO, Scripting anything beyond comms or basic functions (bind 'x' simple command) is somewhat dubious, but it all comes down to what the script does. TBH, A leap script isn't as good as doing it via hud_fastswitch anyway, so not an issue. But pistol scripters should be gived an epidural with a hacksaw.
Face it, there is no way in hell you can get the scripters to stop using the scripts, because they believe they are right and will stand by that 'till end of time(like most people do with their opinion on the internet).
errrrr... the ability to bind a key to perform multiple commands is not an accident or a bug, any more than hud_fastswitch is a bug. It's a feature of Half-Life itself (as well as anything else built on a Quake engine, AFAIK). Hence, binding a key to perform multiple commands is not in and of itself a cheat or an exploit. In some instances it may make it easier to perform a certain exploit, but in no instance does it actually open up new ones, and in most instances it's used simply to make routine actions more accessible. If leaping and switching to bite in midair is considered an exploit, a longer delay should be imposed on the weapon switching action in the game itself; banning scripts accomplishes nothing, since with arcane key binding schemes or abnormally long fingers you can get the same results without any scripting whatsoever.
Now, using a color spray, on the other hand, IS an exploit, because it was not originally intended by the Half-Life developers. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
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Amen to that <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Colour sprays have no effective use other than looking cool, but they go against the usual method of how things are "supposed to be done". Does that mean we should ban them now? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Btw, with my keybindings, I still have to press the same number/sequence of events to leap/bite, but now it is more accessible to me.
...
The aluminum bat is only a problem, in that friendly game, if the team with the wooden bat has no access to an aluminum bat. What if the they were told that they could get an aluminum bat for their team if they walked down the road to the community center and signed one out (like the first team did)?
Simply because the actual script doesn't come packaged with the game, doesn't make it a cheat or harmful... You are basically arguing that these scripts are wrong because they take a little effort to create and setup.
Common sense tells me that a commander health spamming with a script has a serious advantages over commanders like me that never bothered to setup a script for it.
Whoa...so you can't complain about someone using a comm health script because you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself, but it's ok to complain about a leap script because...umm...well...you were too lazy to go write/find one for yourself??? That just doesn't make any sense.
I don't advertise that I am using scripts in-game (i.e. my leap button doesn't "say Leap script activated!"), because that would be annoying as hell But I try to make them publicly available for anyone else that wants to use them. I have no problem sharing my scripts. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey EnemyWithin, you bring up some good points. (Apologies for use of emboldened type. It's for people like myself who can't stand long posts, and just want the gist)
You're right, if my team wanted, we could go to the community center to get an aluminum bat, we could even borrow the other team's. But assuming the game has already started it's not really fun to stop the game so we can all be on equal playing grounds. Even if we borrow the aluminum bat in the third inning, we still had one inning with a lame wooden bat. To keep the game fair, the opposing team should at least ask us if we mind them using aluminum. Same is true of NS, <b>if the game is already started, it's only the people running scripts who can make the game fair, without stopping play, by simply disabling or announcing the scripts</b>. The major difference between the baseball analogy and NS, is that we can easily see the other team has an aluminum bat. In NS players can't tell whether or not someone is running a script. The onus of keeping things fair is on the scripter.
Again, the issue isn't lazyness in finding a script, or lack of ability in making one. <b>The issue is fairness to the other players, to keeping the game as fun as it can be, by ensuring even-handed competition.</b> This can be done by players anouncing or asking others if they have any questionable scripts running, or server admins, keeping tight reign over what scripts can and can't be used on their servers.
Again, I agree with you. Advertising any and all scripts you've got running during the course of a game can be very annoying. Once, though, at the beginning of a game though, isn't a big deal. <b>One brief global chat message announcing your scripts at logon would be enough.</b> People could see what you had running and could come to their own (hopefully) mature decisions as to whether it affected gameplay or not. To keep the game fair for us llamas out there, you scripters should at least do that for us. Us luddites might sleep better, <i>believing</i> we are more skilled than the general scripting populace.
If you're proud of your scripts and your scripting ability, then tell us about it! Why hide good, hard work? Hiding the scripts you're running just <i>implies</i> cheating, as harmless as they may be.
I don't know a durn thing about scripting. I do not think in any way that it's wrong to script because it's beyond my ability to do it. I have a few scripts running myself for muting, and outputting chat messages (made by people much more talented than me!). Based on my reply here, I've decided that I'm going to start anouncing even these scripts when I log on.
I don't think that I'm qualified to say any script is problematic or wrong, because like locallyunscene said, scripting is a "gray", subjective issue. Unless the Devs come out and sanction or ban specific scripts or types of scripts, there is no objective position you can take on the issue. <b>What I'm suggesting is a way to make play for scripters and non-scripters as fair and as fun as possible.</b>
If anyone here can make a script that announces, at logon, "I've got <i>x</i> and <i>y</i> scripts running, and I'm a complete dinkus", please PM it to me pronto!