"squad Tactics"
Umbraed_Monkey
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9922Members
<div class="IPBDescription">or how marines should really be fighting</div> So what are the tactics that troops in real life use? Would ANY of em work against the Kharaa in the average Natural-Selection game? Or is MonsE and Grendel blowing hot air when they talk about the 'atmosphere' and how marines will r0x0r j00r b0x0r if they use these legendary squad tactics?
please, explain what you know, and discuss <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
please, explain what you know, and discuss <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
You have four people in a team. When they approach a door, the point man goes in and immediately aims his gun at the far corner of the room, or the one that requires the most amount of turning in order to get a clear shot. Immedaitely after the point man comes the second member, who aims directly ahead, at whichever corner is the most easily targeted from the door. The third member then comes in, usually aiming his gun somwhere at the midpoint between guys 1 and 2. The 4th man, who has been watching the team's back the entire time, then enters and also picks a position on his own discretion. The whole process is a fluid, 1 second affair, so any enemies in the room should be quickly eliminated before they can retaliate.
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Sorta like that. I don't know how well it would work agaisnt Kharaa, though, considering that they can be on the walls and ceiling <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
please, explain what you know, and discuss <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think "reality" tactics have some use - albeit limited. This is because NS does not model itself to reality.
In reality troops fire from a static position preferably because it lends itself to accuracy. So when advancing you can see the advantage of someone being in a stable firing postion to cover the moving (quickly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) teammate (who will have a harder time firing accurately). In NS though the guy that is moving can fire pretty much as accurately as the guy who is stationary, making that tactic somewhat redundant.
Also, other factors such as fighting creatures that can move inhumanly fast, and absorb ridiculous amounts of firepower, and having no weapon recoil, no weapon stopping power etc. hinder alot of the value of specialist tactics (such as room entry). Not to mention having friendly fire disabled !
Some things are universal though...covering your rear is always a good thing. Faking an attack at one point, then hitting the "real" target is another.
1) Lines of fire. When you see a skulk down the hall and you are on point, you crouch in the middle of the hallway, the other man is on either of your sides (the one opposite of the nearest side entrance) and the two of you can concentrate fire easily. The rear guard turns around only after 3-4 seconds when your clips are low, in case it/they are still alive and blasts away. The rear gaurd, btw, doesn't move backwards but periodically checks and also watches entrances you came in from for a little bit to make sure no one is coming. We've found it's great to have a rear guard with a shotgun, it makes life easier for when things get too close. Of course, unless you are in a rush, you proceed extra slowly... no bunny hopping. This requires the people to either know the strategy (Widely used in CS, though we spread it out more) or to be fast learners. Hard to get done in a pub, it really is.
2) Cleaning a room... no nades makes it hard, but there are ways. This unfortunately requires a sacrificial lamb in rooms where there are multiple enemies. One man rushes in front and as the skulks run over to yum yum eat him up, he just starts leaping diagonally backwards out the door. If he is lucky, he might just live while his two friends blast the skulks. This is *ALOT* less of a sure thing than the above tactic, it doesn't always work for us so take that into consideration... I can't think of a better way to do it currently. We tried just all three blasting in there rambo style, and it worked only after we had a tech advantage (HMGs to their skulks) otherwise we ended up dead or reloading, then dead.
3) Holding spots without mines or turrets. Just got this down today on uhm... the map with reactor room. We were on a team getting hurt kind of bad and the comm asked us to take RR. Me and my 1 friend went there, capped the RTs, and told the comm not to drop a TF (Which he had done EVERYWHERE else). We were both LMG, armor level 2, with full clips. At least a dozen skulks died trying to take it, even when they came in 3s and 4s. The trick was just single fire, IE one man spurts while the other waits. When they got close enough (sometimes they died sometimes they made it in) the 2nd man opens fire and finishes what's left. It finally took 2 lerks and 2 skulks to flush us, after which we lost RR and the game... but you get the picture. Using this same strategy, the two of us plus a willing companion held RR the next round against fades with just our LMGs and armor, not even JPs. We only killed maybe one fade of the three assaulting us, but we kept them at bay while the comm had backup get in and drop a TF. THAT game, we won. We've been succesfully (Though not quite as definitively succesfully) using that same tactic throughout the day. It is alot harder to work in smaller areas, where we both have to spurt to kill skulks before they close in. Lerks continue to be a problem, but I think that is more because our shooting skills don't translate well from CS to NS. Here's to practice.
4) This one is stupid and easy, but yes Virginia, flanking works. No one uses it it makes me nuts. Alot of hives have two entrances. Don't all go in one! Especially not when you've tried that one entrance repeatedly and they are beefing it up. Some guy on a voice comm was organizing us flanking CC and they just couldn't stop us, even on this server which has umbra spawn on it (Some little mod). We waded through the DCs and OCs and finally got to their hive on a single flank, after of those vaunted JP/HMG rushes failed.
I'm sure someone disagrees, let's hear it. But don't just go 'you dum nub that doesn't work hahaha I'm so leet the best strat is to be like me!!!!!1111!' or I will kill your first born.
The PDF in that thread shows how teams move through hallways, both wide and narrow, and also shows what to do when you get to a T intersection, etc.
Room clearing is no different with skulks on ceilings unless the ceiling is unnaturally high.
And if you DO want 3d room clearing and the military or SWAT SOP is not enough, look at how they move through stairwells. They have to guard up and down also.
Someone on that thread mentioned a very useful tactic; say your trying to take mess hall but the entire skulky team is there. One person rush in, doesn't fire, doesn't turn, just runs directly in the door and to the far side of the room. The skulks chase him; the rest of the team in the doorways slaughter them.
Unfortunately, this is near impossible to coordinate in a public server. Even if it wasn't impossible, there are other "improvised" tactics like the man jumping in mess hall thing that works better with less coordination.
There are a couple of main areas I think. Room clearing/holding, movement through hallways, and fire dicipline
Room holding is just as important as room clearing. Each team-member should grab a corner- he can't jump and dodge, but this means that the skulk must cross the entire room each time to attack a target, and THAT makes it so that the tiny room your in is effectively much larger because time on target is huge compared to everyone standing in the middle of the room, bucking and dodging. Jumping around is great for individual survival, but not nessisarily best for teamwork- not everyone can shoot as well as you. If everyone grabs a corner, the entire team is concentrating on one skulk at a time till it's dead, then moving on- and that wastes even carapaced skulks quickly.
Anyway i find that it is a lot easier and at least as effective to pull of brand new surprising tactics badly than doing a well known tactic well. The problem with the whole sacrificial lamb thingie (reword?) is that if all of the skulks don't rush at him then you're back at square one without the element of surprise and one less man on your team.
On pubs though, getting anything done is quite difficult and any sort of teamwork even close to this level basically ensures a win.
NS is far to fast paced to use squad level techniques. The thing is... this game is not a tactical shooter, it is a RPG based on a FPS system... your 3 marines stand little chance against a decent fade player no matter what you do.
it is kinda telling someone that plays warcraft 3 "what do i do when my level 3 hero dies and i have 5 archers left and he has a lvl 10 hero with a hoard of zombies?"
the responce you would get is "you die..."
Even if one or two skulks do not rush the lamb, they're easier to deal with when the rest of the team does go in.
Also, after the first lamb dies and the skulks who went after him died, send in another. If the remaining skulks do not chase, then they will die from the lamb who's now in the center of the room looking up at them. If they do chase, they will die from the guys in the hallway. The whole point is that it's an efficient and methodical way to clear a room such as messhall.
Now, with his plan (which probably works dont' get me wrong), you have to get someone parasited. It's not easy to do when you need it (and when you don't need it, it happens alot! lol)
I also enjoy, once I'm parasited, making obvious runs to kind of strange places, usually siege locations or something by myself... then just sitting there for a little bit. I always get a few takers, and they usually get me but at least I'm taking up their time.
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When you use this on aliens in NS, you would simply add looking on walls and cielings - heres how I see it.
You have four people in a team. When they approach a door, the point man goes in and immediately aims his gun at the far corner of the room, or the one that requires the most amount of turning in order to get a clear shot. Immedaitely after the point man comes the second member, who aims directly up incase there is a skulk camping the cieling then at whichever corner is the most easily targeted from the door. The third member then comes in, usually aiming his gun somwhere at the midpoint between guys 1 and 2, but taking special notice of the walls and any vents. The 4th man, who has been watching the team's back the entire time, then enters and runs to the center of the room in an attempt to lure out any skulks. The second man, then turns and watches the door, the 3rd man covers the 1st mans area, while the 1st man goes to the corner the 3rd man was aiming at. The whole process is a fluid, 2-5 second affair, but most enemies should be eliminated if they werent hiding at the time of entry.
Besides, there isnt much 'doorways' in ns to begin with, even the ones that we have are usually big enough to allow 2-3 dudes in at once.
Also, how would this standard 4-man squad move when they are in the open...ie refinery hive at ns_bast? Same formation as the one for wide hallways?
A good way to thwart bait tactics is to be patient, if one marine walks into a room just wait. If he leaves the room and no one follows, chase him. Now when you drop from the ceiling, that's where I'd be hiding, make sure to not fall straight down as that will make your skulk growl giving yourself away.
If you know for a fact that no teammates are nearby and the marines are in a large group, parasite as many as possible then make go after them. That way you insure that they don't get to build that little outpost their commander wanted so dearly.
Wait, this is Kharaa tactics, oops heh. Scuse me. <i>::walks off to the other forum::</i>
Excellent post, p4l. It really amazes me that so few people exercise common sense maneuvers, even in the top clans. The US vs. Europe match that played out a few weeks ago had one horrifying example of poor tactics.
Map is Caged, opening minutes of the game. Three marines weld through to Vent hive and move in. They're standing in the hallway outside the hive room and see a skulk skitter around on the wall near the entrance. The marines move as close as they possibly can to the wall, stand right next to each other in a tight little cluster, and all stare directly at the corner where the skulk would have to appear.
Naturally, another skulk had flanked around, ran all the way down the hall unmolested, and started chomping their backs. All three of them turned around and immediately started shooting, with most of their bullets hitting the teammate closest to the alien. The first skulk uses the opportunity to attack and the marines are hamburger a moment later. A textbook example of making tactical mistakes, and done by the supposedly very best players out there.
Goes to show you that it doesn't matter how good your aim is, or how fast you can bunnyhop, when you do everything else wrong.
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If NS fans and their friends or clanmates are really serious about learning the techniques of urban combat, you go to the bible: the Marine Corps MCWP 3-35.3 - Military Operations in Urban Terrain. This is the (updated a few times now) guide I learned from during my years in the infantry. Many portions are too macro for NS (you're not winning the hearts and minds of Skulks), but the appendix describes building-clearing techniques with excellent diagrams and clear descriptions. Focus especially on Appendix A, which covers:
Section III. Movement
4. Crossing a Wall A - 7
5. Observation Around Corners A - 7
6. Movement Past Windows A - 8
7. Use of Doorways A - 9
8. Movement Parallel to Buildings A- 10
9. Crossing Open Areas A - 12
10. Assault Element Employment A - 12
11. Movement Inside a Building A - 13
Section V. Clearing Techniques
19. Clearing a Room, Door Closed or Open, From Stacked Positions A - 27
20. Clearing a Room, Door Closed, Split Positions A - 31
21. Covering Team Members Used To Support Clearing of a Room A - 34
22. Clearing a Room, Entering Through Mousehole A - 36
23. Clearing an L-Shaped Hallway A - 36
24. Clearing a T-Shaped Hallway A - 38
25. Clearing a Stairwell A - 39
A must read if you want to stop trigger-twitching and start winning battles the way the USMC has for 228 years...
<a href='http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/usmc/doctrine/mcwp3353.pdf' target='_blank'>Grab the PDF from here</a>
(edit: and plenty more here from the US Army - <a href='http://call.army.mil/homepage/mout.htm' target='_blank'>http://call.army.mil/homepage/mout.htm</a> . They aren't as good at it as we were, but they're still better than most <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
if only the 'rines could end up Black-knighted on the floor ("Tis only a flesh Wound!") that would be amusing...
But, the point of sticking togather, is, if point gets taken down, there're at least two others to get the guy that got point...
It's not that squad tactics wouldn't work, it's just that they're not properly used in game...
To take an example from Jhin-Roh, the full squad has to stick togather, each covering the others' blind spots. That way, they're even less likely to get taken down, can see threats from any direction, and can react much quicker.
Squad tactics would actually work even better against the Kharaa than human opponents, however, we lack one of the major tools of a squad, grenades. They're often used to clear rooms prior to entering, and a co-ordinated grenade volly can render any resistance inside the room inept or dead.
However, now all human devised tactics can't work against an alein force whose cannon fodder are canine like wall-walkers... for obvious reasons. But that's where human adaptability comes in. Excepting the "heavy" Kharaa species, their success depends on surprise, followed by overwhelming force... So, the best early game counter is to move in packs, have a designated 6, 3, & 9 checker, and always have support.
Sigh... if only my old Marine buddies were more into computer games. Good teamwork and tactics beats a twitchy sunny-D ramboer 9 times out of 10. Just like in real life.
512 MB rambos > aliens
Anyway, here's my ideas: When playing NS you don't need to stick with two "pools" -> one saying : TACTICS! and the other saying: RAMBO! What's needed is a mixture of both, even if I tend to favor tactics. Now, the MOST IMPORTANT THING: Just watch after eachother! Make sure that you have clear line of sight so that you can contribute with your firepower - don't move in tight packs, spread out and for god's sake -> TRY TO KEEP DISTANCE <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And now I'll bring the issue of distance up. We all know that you just can't run around jumping and shooting in tight areas with your pitiful LMG <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Especially when there are Skulks waiting for you 'round every corner <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> So.. What I tend to do is to keep my distance, so that I always have alot of space between myself and the Kharaa.. Now this can't be done when you run in hallways, agreed, BUT do it as often as possible.
Finally I would like to say that it isn't possible to FORCE a special kind of gameplay upon a game. People will always play differently and prefer different tactis but it WOULD be really interesting and exciting to improve TP on Public even more. But still, I'm not complaining. Compared to CS, NS REALLY, and I mean REALLY manages to bring forth the TP in all of us <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Even in public you can often enjoys good quality games very often without those Lamers and Lamas <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Have a good time everybody! NS 4-ever <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo-->